Talk:Richard Holbrooke/Archive 1

Archive 1

Needs a huge reorganization

The man played a huge role in the Yugoslav Wars - and somehow the only section in this article deals with his views on Israel. Rostov 21:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

huh what are his views on israel theres nothing about that in the article Richy-rik 03:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

ok its in the older versions he supports israel, but wants troops out of iraq Richy-rik 03:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Mother Jones article

The Mother Jones article listed in the External links has a fundmamental error. It says that Holbrooke was Assistant Secretary of State for Asia for President Ford and was therefore partly responsible for supporting Indonesia in 1975. But that is flat-out wrong. He was Assistant Secretary for President Carter (1977-81). The dates for his service are clearly listed on the State Department website. Does anyone know why there is that glaring error in the article? And if the article is so inaccurate, should it really be in the External links section? Awbeal 14:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Problem Paragraph

shouldn't this be edited or removed?

" ... Perhaps more hawkish than most Democrats, Holbrooke has a very aggressive style that some find off-putting. Others find him an effective, hard-nosed negotiator. ... "

Bunch of hearsay without any sources. Who are the "some" and the "others" ? Cowicide 00:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

According to your article, Holbrooke only did "post-graduate" work (i.e. fellowship, not a degree, which would require much more work) at Princeton. This does not qualify him as an alumnus of Princeton. Hence you should not list Princeton as his Alma Mater in the box at the right, only Brown, where he received his BA. He seems only to have earned at BA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.4.80.198 (talk) 16:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Timing Problem

This: "In August of 1977, then Assistant Secretary of State Richard Holbrooke traveled to Indonesia to meet with Suharto in the midst of one of the Indonesian military’s brutal counterinsurgency campaigns in East Timor in which tens of thousands of East Timorese were being slaughtered." Sort of conflicts with the page on the Indonesian Occupation of East Timor, which says that the counterinsurgency campaign began in SEPTEMBER 1977: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor#Indonesian_hegemony 24.19.241.40 (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Balkan envoy

This section contains what appears to be a chronological error. The author claims that Holbrooke traveled to Belgrade in 1999 to pitch Milošević an ultimatum, prior to the NATO bombing. This is not particularly likely, seeing as how the NATO bombing began in late March of 1998. The citation is an NYT article which does not appear to be accessible from the reference section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.208.6.35 (talk) 00:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I think you're mistaken; the bombing started in 1999. See 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. This is the the link to the NYT. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Early Education

It is stated here that Holbrooke graduated from Scarsdale High in 1900! This is backed up with a footnote citing the MacNeil-Lehrer Hour as its source, which does not mention his graduation from high school at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sleeve3 (talk • contribs) 17:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Early Education

It is stated in the Early Education section that Holbrooke graduated from Scarsdale High in 1900! This is an egregious error that is backed up by a footnote that has absolutely nothing to do with his high school education. See MacNeil-Lehrer Hour footnote 3. It should read: "He was also influenced by the guidance of Secretary of State Dean Rusk, whose son, David, was Holbrooke’s closest friend at Scarsdale High School, from which he graduated in 1958." see [1] --Henretta84 (talk) 13:47, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Another link: [2] --Henretta84 (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Standard definition of Jewish

Shouldn't there be a categorical list for those--like Amb Holbrooke and his wife--who are ethnically/culturally Jewish, but do not practice the faith? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.138.17.129 (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It's probably a hard to draw up such a list because people's level of faith and practice are hard to pin down. It will run into multiple wp:or and wp:blp problems. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Embellishment?

I'm not sure if it's true for all parts of the article, but the section about his time as the ambassador to Germany seems to be quite embellished:

- "Holbrooke served in Germany during a dramatic moment: only a few years after German reunification, he helped shape U.S. relations with a new Germany."

It wasn't that dramatic then anymore. No German would describe it like that. Where did you get that from?

- "It is now one of the most important links between Germany and the United States."

This is ridiculous, NATO and other treaties/organizations are much more important.

- The following paragraph sounds like advertisement using "name-dropping".

The hole section sounds like one of those wikipedia pages of active politicians/political issues which some people abuse to push their agenda. 137.193.54.58 (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

What was his real name?

Before he changed it? KevinOKeeffe (talk) 02:44, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Holbrooke was his real name. Btw, it was his father that changed the name to Holbrooke. The NYT source does not provide the old name.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Chronology section

I removed the entire section[3] as it is not the type of section we typically utilize here at Wikipedia. Feel free to revert or comment if you strongly disagree.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with its removal.  Frank  |  talk  18:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Nary a naysayer or critic?

For this protector of power and privilege? Is he a saint of the established order? cf: Richard Holbrooke: Long-time operative for US imperialism. Doubtless there are others if NPOV can apply here in the normal way to restore a balance. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that the article has had to be protected, something of a surprise to me so I looked thru the vandalism. What I got an impression of was an inchoate expression of dislike by the masses who sense that this individual was their enemy. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 05:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Primary source?

This is problematic I think. --John (talk) 10:14, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I took it out pending consensus here that it is ok to use it. See WP:PRIMARYSOURCE for future reference. --John (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Category: American Jews

He doesn't seem to have identified as Jewish or observed the faith. Can anybody explain how Holbrooke fits the category? Anthony (talk) 08:34, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I think I can explain: You may be correct about his identity and level of observance, but he was an ethnic Jew as both of his parents were Jewish.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:11, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Aah. So it's referring to genealogical origin. Fair enough. I'd always taken ethnicity as being distinct from biological heritage. But I just looked it up at OED Online and it is very much one of the meanings of "ethnic". Another unknown unknown :) Anthony (talk) 01:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

- so that it is yet another reason not to include these ethnic labels. Ethnic *background* can be a legitimate topic of interest, and can, if necessary, be described in the body of the article; labels conferred solely by genealogy are essentially racial, and do not belong in an encyclopaedia. Feketekave (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

There is a discussion touching on this at Village pump (policy). --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

"..aortic dissection, a rare condition."

The ABC news article cited for the phrase does not say it is "a rare condition." It says that "Aortic dissections are uncommon but often fatal." I'm not going to change "rare" to "uncommon" because I'm not sure that word is accurate either. My understanding is that periods of untreated high blood pressure, especially related to smoking, can thin the artery walls and cause a tear, even years later. As a cause of death, it is sometimes collapsed into "coronary artery disease." I'm not qualified to judge how "uncommon" it is compared to other causes of death among people with a history of high blood pressure. Anecdotally, I have heard of a number of cases among elderly acquaintances;so I think it is misleading to make a special note of its presumed frequency in the population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.38.87 (talk) 23:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Foreign languages

Is there any information on which foreign languages he spoke? Seems relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMartens (talk • contribs) 15:08, 8 November 2012 (UTC)