Talk:Potassium nitrate/Archive 1

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Density

Is the density right? it says cm ^-3 shouldn't it be ^3? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.70.153 (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Urban myth?

A popular 20th-century myth held that soldiers and sailors were secretly administered saltpetre in their rations,

Saltpeter was often used to keep mashed potatoes white and to preserve meat. It does not cause impotence but does lower the male libido and the frequency of incidental erections. I know this from personal experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.116.23 (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Popular in what culture, in what country(ies)? Mid 20th century? Early? Late? All through? Still popular? Gone forever? --Brion
Every male who ever went to camp, prison, or the armed services has heard it. See urban legend at Snopes.com , also Straight Dope. The folk etymology is from my own data collecting, that is, the first time I ever heard it. Ortolan88
This is all very vague. the Snopes article cites a sweeping array of myths in many countries across several centuries involving various different chemicals; both cite much wider locations than just the military, and neither indicate any special affinity to the 20th century nor to the claimed folk etymology for that particular chemical in English. --Brion
It is a very common myth wherever there are more men than women. I have no idea how far it goes back, but I heard it in 1952 at Camp Dixie for Boys where a 13-year-old solemnly assured an amazed 12-year-old me that they put "soft peter" in the mashed potatoes "to make your peter soft". I have heard the saltpeter story many times since then and the "soft peter" explanation several times. I was never in the army or in prison, but I know people who were and they'd heard it too. If those other sources haven't come across it yet, shame on them. But wiki on and edit away everything you don't like. I'm just taking judicial notice of what's been put in front of me. Not all knowledge is in the books yet. I'm writing a book about words. How about this. I'll put the story in there and then when it is published we can cite my book. Ortolan88


It would be nice to know if there has been any peer-reviewed or other scientific research on whether potassium nitrate actually does result in impotence or lack of sexual desire. Ellsworth 18:32, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wow...old debate here I'm stirring up. Saltpeter does effect the ability for men to get erections. The Straight Dope article cited in this entry does not contradict that, but rather tries to dispel the myth that it was put into food at summer camps, military chow lines, and prisons.
As someone who decades ago used to buy saltpeter to make pyrotechnics and needed an excuse to ask for it, I would tell the pharmacist(s) I had several pet rabbits. I also remember one of the boxes I purchased giving dosage amounts for mammals (and recommending you not give it to humans). So, are there any sources that claim saltpeter does NOT effect erections? Any that say it does? Ynot4tony2 (talk) 16:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
This is clearly the sort of immensely pervasive myth, passed down through generations and on multiple continents, that is worthy of and acceptable for mention at Wikipedia. The myth is still broadly believed or suspected to be true, though it is apparently untrue; as such, noting it and discrediting it in the article serves the purpose of imparting accurate knowledge without the risk of amplifying some nascent lie or doing damage to any person, product or entity as is the guiding principle of the Wiki guideline against such myth/legend/rumor in general. I find this mention, apparently physician-reviewed.[1] The scientific text Human Reproductive Biology, by Richard E. Jones and Kristin H. López, notes but dismisses the myth. I've inserted a discrete section, which should be further referenced as editors see fit, i.e. for the origin and various iterations of the myth as noted in literature and other reliable sources.
A very interesting aside would be to note any reliably referenced instance—such as that to which Ynot4tony2 attests—wherein the substance's rumored efficacy in this area actually caused or promoted the substance's usage and/or prescription. If and when such reliable sourcing is found, this could potentially become its own article, as the level of detail would go beyond the scope of the parent article. Abrazame (talk) 07:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Name change

Reasons for name change: got tired of seeing broken "potassium nitrate" links, nicely dodges British vs American English issue for title, saltpetre can also refer to a few other nitrate salts, esp. sodium nitrate. -- User:Shimmin

Smoke

"When potassium nitrate is mixed with fine sugar and ignited, they generate 600 times their own mass in smoke." Is this right? If it is, then the other 599 times the mixture's mass would have to come from the ambient air. Should this say "600 times their own volume" instead? --Arteitle 12:00, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

That should read volume. The point of using a solid oxidizer like nitrate is that you don't need the ambient air. Shimmin 12:54, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Saltpetre in cooking?

Yes, I know nitrites are used, but look in old recipe books (19C, early 20C) and you'll find saltpeter also used. Or Google for it, as I did to confirm that I remembered correctly.

One of the first scientifically formulated curing salts was a mixture of sodium chloride, nitrite, and nitrate. See Lloyd Hall. On the other hand, most older references to saltpeter could be referring to sodium nitrate, potassium nitrate, or a mixture of the two. Shimmin 11:42, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

I have a copy here of Jane Grigson's English Food, and it seems to have saltpetre in half of the recipes. Well, perhaps I'm exaggerating, but saltpetre appears quite often. Is this potassium nitrate? Surely it's not sodium nitrate, judging by the noted side-effects of ingestion on that page. For instance, here's her list of ingredients for salt beef:

  • 6lb silverside of beef
  • 3oz dark brown sugar
  • 1 heaped teaspoon saltpetre
  • 4oz salt
  • 1oz black peppercorns
  • 1oz allspice berries
  • 1oz juniper berries

Has anyone any idea what saltpetre is from this context? (And more to the point, where it can be obtained :-) Richard W.M. Jones 17:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Saltpetre has three qualities in this instance: most important of all are the preservative qualities; additionally colour (maintains a shade of red in the meat) and taste - it acts as a flavour-enhancer with a slight metallic taste. As regards the obtainability, saltpetre is readily available at any decent butchers in Poland, although it is of little use beyond cooking, since it is mixed with salt to <5%. Greg Malewski

Laxative

Moved this text out of the article:

It has also been used as laxative for animals (not 100% sure - someone check this please).

(added by User_talk:70.27.44.155) Richard W.M. Jones 08:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Use of salt petre in Belsen Concentration Camp

I have a general query about the use of salt petre in cooking. What purpose does it serve? While researching for other reasons I came across a reference to the NAZI's feeding it to the camp inmates in Bergen Belsen concentration camp, men and women during WWII. Since they were starving them anyway I was curious to find out why they might have done this. It does not seem possible that it was for health reasons. Helen Lewis

Saltpetre in food preparation is used as a preservative. We have quite a number of reports of "The Nazis fed ... to the concentration camp inmates", and I am generally sceptical. It is always possible that this was an experiment to see what the effect would be (such experiment are quite well documented, and not simply in concentration camps); it is also possible that it is hyperbole. Saltpetre is not a particularly effective poison (although a camp guard might not realise that), and in any case would have been more useful as fertilizer. Physchim62 (talk) 14:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The account I read of the NAZIS feeding salt peter to the camp inmates at Belsen concentration camp was a first hand account written at the time of the liberation of the camps by the British. In fact it said they fed them salt peter and turnips. Therefore I have no reason to disbelieve the account. Perhaps the explanation of experimentation is the most likely since the camp doctor is reported to have injected some inmates with benzine. Helen Lewis

Generally speaking, you need a reason to believe an account, not a reason to disbelieve it. Given the amount of misinformation surrounding the Holocaust, I'm inclined to suspend judgment on stuff like this, especially when it doesn't strictly make any sense. Just because it was a British account doesn't make it reliable. In this case, deception in the accounts is not likely; misidentification of the substance seems most probable. Feeding salt peter to concentration camp victims seems to contradict the Nazi M.O.--they wouldn't waste bullets on them, so why would they waste fertilizer? 76.114.172.199 01:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
If interested editors would provide the detailed and verifiable source reference of such reports of use of saltpeter in/as food (by any military or institution), it could be determined if this is reliable and notable enough to include in this article or write a separate article about the phenomenon, and with what qualifiers we must address the allegation. It's quite possible that an entity, believing such a rumor, would use it to that end. I do agree with the anon's implication that a degradation of prisoners' health, strength and virility would likely have been more cheaply achieved through a meager and poorly nutritive diet, overwork, lack of sleep, and the profound emotional and psychological stress of the situation. However, as to "wasting bullets", the Nazis did all sorts of hideous "medical" experiments on prisoners that one could argue siphoned resources from their war effort. I think from a purely organizational standpoint, it's a question of which branch is doing the "wasting" and how easily replenished is the resource. Metal for bullets was hard to come by and had other military uses; yet a noted source of potassium nitrite for gunpowder is simple urine. It's quite possible that such an account, if true, was a white lie, an effort by the Allied serviceman to besmirch the tactic rumored to be practiced by his own military. All of this is simply hearsay and speculation, however, without explicitly presenting the reference, which would still be welcome. Abrazame (talk) 08:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


Italicising

Latin words should be italicised. Arun.fegade 16:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC) ...unless they are permanent parts of the English language (i.e. loanwords). What Latin terms in particular are you talking about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.13.13 (talk) 00:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge?

No to merge. This is about the chemical and ist uses, niter is about the naturally occurring mineral. Keep as separate article. Vsmith 23:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Potassium nitrate (data page)

Could somebody who is familiar with the subject matter go to that page and see if there is any info that should be here? It was apparently created as an advertisement (that part of which has been removed), so if there's nothing of value there that isn't already here it should probably be deleted. Fightindaman 23:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction

The following two paragraphs would appear to contradict each other.

The chemical compound potassium nitrate is a naturally occurring mineral source of nitrogen. It is a nitrate with chemical formula KNO3. When it burns, it shows a bright pink to purple color.

and

Although potassium nitrate is used in gunpowder, by itself, potassium nitrate is not combustible or flammable.

exolon 23:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Having seen the data page, I would guess that KNO3 is combustible. Though it is probably much more flammable when mixed with other chemicals to make gunpowder proper, it is probably combustible to a degree by itself. Ourai т с 23:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Pink to purple is the emission spectrum of the potassium, which is relatively weak and it washed out by the spectra of the colorants and fuels. Also, even if heated to the point of decomposition, potassium nitrate never "burns", since that is defined as the oxidation of a substance, and potassium nitrate is an oxidizing agent, meaning it undergoes reduction. bookwyrm404@gmail.com

Awnsering Questions

Pot Nitrate is used in cooking to add flavour, and also as a meat preservitive, but there are theorys that it may cause cancer, and the MSDS was not created as an advertisment, and everything that should be there is there, any other questions i will answer, and add to the MSDS, to the best of my knowledge—Preceding unsigned comment added by Thechezman14 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 21 October 2006

Contradiction with page on Atacama in Chile

In this page, it says that chilean mining is the most common way of getting salt peter. In the page on Atacama, it says that synthetic methods (mentioned in the article) are now the dominant way. Anybody know which is correct?

citation need

"In England, the privilege of manufacturing explosives had been in the hands of the family of John Evelyn, the celebrated diarist, as a crown monopoly since before 1588." needs citation or more links or something... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.109.112.53 (talk) 05:58, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

saltpetre in snuff?

there is a reference in Chinua Achebe's book Things Fall Apart by Okonkwo (African guy) to the amount of saltpetre in his snuff ... would the Africans have known what saltpetre was in the late 1800's and have used it in snuff ?

69.156.1.213 02:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC) (aka AirCombat)

Do "common names" need a couple three more entries?

From the article:

common names include saltpetre (from Medieval Latin sal petrae: "stone salt" or possibly "Salt of Petra"), American English saltpeter, Nitrate of potash and nitre. The name Chile saltpetre is also applied to sodium nitrate, which while related to explosives as well, is a very different compound.
  • Is not saltpeter (sault-peat-urr) an alternate name/pronunciation for this mineral? It is the only pronunciation I've ever heard. I can't recall ever hearing it pronounced "sault-pea-tray" (as is implied by the spelling saltpetre), although I do know that petra is Latin for rock or stone and that the Neo-Anglician language which has replaced the now-exstinct English language, unlike the immensely more populous Anglo-Columbian language which more closely resembles our common tongue (as written by William Shakespeare) has a strong-though-confusingingly-inconsistent habit of putting the vowel before the consonant even when the consonant is pronounced after the vowel (which I guess is moot in received pronunciation, in which words are often under-enunciated or "slurred" to such a degree that "R" may be dropped altogether and "LL", especially in words like "bell" and "hell", is surprisingly often pronounced nearly like a "W"!; though, curiously, spellings like "colrou" don't seem to appear for "color" in RP, which one would think they would).
  • I have also heard "petersalt" very, very often (exceedingly far more often than "saltpeter") as a name for this mineral, which I didn't see on the page at all, though this would be the most direction pseudo-translation of "rock salt" or "stone salt". In fact, in my experience, "petersalt" and its alternative, "peter-salt" seem to by an awesome margin to be the most common terms, with "saltpeter" being naught more than an usual fluke.

I might suppose that "'petresalt", "petre-salt". "petre-saltte" or some other British variation would be reasonably common, but maybe this is has something to do with that dialect's own internal rules (since peter is spelled petre and pronounced peat-uh rather than pea-tray as its spelling suggests, but perhaps this tray syllable can only be pronounced tuh at the end of a word, rendering petresalt impossible unless pronounced as in I have also not seen petra salt, understandably, because this is not correct medieval Latin. I have also not seen on this page the term petric salt , a very common term indeed, nor the doubtless most common name of all: ROCK SALT.--Þorstejnn 16:08, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Rocksalt is sodium chloride, NaCl, not potassium nitrate, KNO3.
Ben 16:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
Glad I won't be making that mistake anymore. 'Preciate it, Ben! So, what about "petersalt", "saltpeter", or "saltstone"? Maybe we should have a not in the paragraph to the effect of "do not confuse with rock salt"? --Þorstejnn 16:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Sensitive Teeth Toothpaste

It says there is no conclusive evidence that KN03 can help with sensitive teeth, but a quick search reveals the opposite: that Potassium nitrate can help with sensitive teeth:

Coolhandscot 12:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

NPK Value

I think the NPK value of 13-0-44 is wrong? I calculate it as 13.9-0-38.7 for pure KNO3 and I've seen it sold as 13-0-38. Am I right or am I missing something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.164.196.241 (talk) 01:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be wrong; should be 13-0-46. Error was made in by calculating "K" based on just K, as opposed to the K2O that should be used.[2] agrees with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.190.251.96 (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
The NPK value should be 13-0-44, pure KNO3 seems to give 14-00-46 which means the fertilizer grade must contain a small amount of other ingredients. Please see article on fertilizer labeling for explanation. The following websites agree with this number: http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/NPK.htm or http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-896.htm

Get rid of malodorous in the intro

Replace it with a word that is more easier to understand. Stinky is one, but some would think it's not appropriate for an encyclopedia, so something else would be fine, but lets keep the article as easy to understand as possible. 64.236.121.129 (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

"Malodorous" is a common, descriptive, and very ordinary word. I don't see any problem here. Bushcutter (talk) 05:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The "malodorous" phrase seems to be editorializing, and could be removed without losing any information. One could argue that the modern industrial synthesis is malodorous as well, at least if there is some ammonia leaking (many people find ammonia malodorous). --Itub (talk) 09:27, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

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Citation Needed

If the section beginning "In more rural times" had been lifted in its entirety from the urine page the reference would have made it as well. At the time of writing of the Foxfire series, this method of KNO3 production was still being used in the Appalachian Mountains of the USA as it had been done for generations. This fact should elevate the Foxfire series to the level of at least a secondary source if not a primary source. Patris Magnus (talk) 22:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Spelling

I've noticed that the spelling on this page is inconsistent, so I'm going to change it uniformly to UK spellings, which seem decisively more prominent in the opening paragraph (I'm from Massachusetts). Any objections? Twin Bird (talk) 04:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Discovery of potassium nitrate?

Are there reliable and verifiable historical records that point to when potassium nitrate was first discovered? 67.212.40.23 (talk) 02:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

In China, it was used as a food adictive.Agre22 (talk) 04:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)agre22

A great fertilizer

This product is a great fertilizer, releasing potassium and nitrogen with just one product.Agre22 (talk) 04:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)agre22

Carcinogen/health effects

I grew up hearing that nitrates and nitrites in foods are unhealthy. Indeed, there are food products which boast that they "contain no nitrates or nitrites". My understanding is that one of the concerns is that they create a carcinogenic substance when subjected to high temperatures, as one might do when frying bacon to a crisp, for example. There may be information for and against—I'm thinking of the use of antibiotics in animal feed, which from a certain perspective could be desirable but is apparently used indiscriminately, preventively. Some reliably sourced, referenced material addressing this with the appropriate balance/weight would be helpful. Abrazame (talk) 07:42, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Ionic Bond

Can someone please put somewhere on the article that KNO3 forms an ionic bond? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.29.62 (talk) 22:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay. It is an ionic salt of K+ and NO3-. SBHarris 22:59, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Potassium Nitrate-Oxidizer

Potassium nitrate is known as a strong oxididant. This is a process that takes place during chemical reactions when an atom or molecule gives up electrons, which causes energy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.215.228.108 (talk) 06:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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