Talk:Playboy Playmate/Archive 1

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Archive 1

List of Playmates

I've made a list of centerfolds and wonder if there's interest in putting it up here. Two questions, though: 

1) My source had no information for the March, 1955 issue. Was one printed with this date, and who was the centerfold?
2) Were the centerfolds called "Playmates of the Month" from the beginning, or was that term invented later?

So, should I put it up here? CFLeon 00:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

  • The list is already covered in the links at the bottom of the article: List_of_people_in_Playboy_1953-1959 and so on. March, 1955, had no centerfold because there was no issue for that month. Presumably Hef was on the ropes financially. As the article says, and the Playboy lore states, the first issue with MM in the center used the term "Sweetheart" and the term "Playmate" debuted the next month. Wahkeenah 00:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Breasts list

It seems that the list List of Playboy Playmates with D-cup or larger breasts is on its way to deletion. Although this might not be sufficiently notable to merit its own article, it does seem like a useful subcategorization of these models in that it breaks an extremely long list (all playmates) into a more manageable chunk (though still, ahem, more than a handful). I have attached the list below. What do you think about includding it here? Interestingstuffadder 01:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a list of the Playboy magazine's Playmates of the Month with the largest breasts. For the purposes of this list, "big breasts" is defined as D-cup or larger.

"PMOY" denotes that the Playmate was also voted "Playmate of the Year".

1950s

1960s

1970s

1980s

1990s

2000s

See also

Reference

Death sections

I think instead of a table of deaths, talking about the notable deaths would be more appropriate. FrozenPurpleCube 20:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

List of deaths

I've removed the list of deaths again. None of this information is sourced. If a source exists that provides this information, then it needs to be properly cited. Saying "this information is cited elsewhere" is not enough, as this information is not cited elsewhere. The individual articles for each of these people are almost entirely devoid of reliable sources, so claiming that the citations are there just isn't true. If any of this information is actually within the two books listed at the bottom of the article, then add that information, but nothing more. --- RockMFR 23:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Pubic hair

The first Playmate to show pubic hair was Liv Lindeland, Miss January 1971. An underwater photo by Russ Meyer taken of Marguerite Empey for her second appearance as a Playmate in February 1956 also showed pubic hair, but this photo did not attract public attention as much as Lindeland's centerfold appearance, perhaps because the magazine had a smaller circulation at that time. Neither did a picture showing the corner of Melodye Prentiss's pubic hair in July 1968

This sounds a bit silly. From what I can understand it's saying 'the first Playmate to show pubic hair was Liv. Well actually, we lie, it wasn't the first as the ones in Feb 1956 and July 1968 did as well but they didn't attract much attention.' If my understanding is correct, then it needs to be reworked. Something like, Liv Lindeland, Miss January 1971's apparance attracted consider attention as her pubic hair was shown Nil Einne 13:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Playmate vs PMOM

A Playmate is any model that appears in a nude photospread in the Magazine, or Special Edition, which is not what the article said, so it's been corrected. The PMOM is a special playmate of the issue.

This is completely inaccurate. According to Playboy and to Hef, only the centerfold aka Playmate of the Month is considered a "Playmate." Centerfold is exactly the same thing as Playmate. Women who pose in Playboy but who are not the centerfold are NOT Playmates, they are just Playboy models. Hef has talked about this many times, and Holly Madison explained all the exact definitions on their reality TV show. On the Playboy website, it says there have been 622 Playmates in total since the beginning. That equals about one for each issue of the magazine (some have been PM more than once, but some issues had more than one centerfold, so it equals out). If 'Playmate' covered every women who posed nude in the magazine and all the specials, it would obviously be way more than 1 model per issue. [1] It would probably be worth mentioning that there is a perception that all PB models are Playmates, and that the media sometimes refers to any PB model this way, but that the official term per Playboy only refers to the Playmate of the Month. 81.1.77.50 00:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

First lesbian playmate?

The article lists Stephanie Adams as the first playmate to "come out" publically as a lesbian. But I remember that Rebekka Armstrong also had openly been in a lesbian relationship. Admittedly she later said she was a bisexual and married a man. And I can't find a cite for any of this other than when playmates talk about having sex with other women it's permamently stuck in my brain. MK2 02:42, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

In a December 1994 interview, Marina Baker, Miss March 1987, also claims to have had bisexual flings around the time of her centerfold. "First lesbian", like virtually anything to do with sexual orientation, is misleading because many Playmates have had lesbian experiences and lesbian tendencies in varying degrees. Stephanie Adams doesn't claim to be exclusively lesbian either. A more accurate term would be "First Playmate to live in a committed lesbian relationship".Ghosts&empties 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Until we get better documentation, I'm taking it out. MK2 20:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Adams was the first playmate to come out as a lesbian in 2004, as sourced all over the internet, and is in fact the first playmate to become a LGBT spokesmodel and advocate in the LGBT community, as also sourced. But it's also currently sourced on the internet that she is no longer identifying herself as such. An-Apple-A-NY-Day (talk) 16:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Pubic Wars?

Did such a thing actually take place? In the History section it states:

"Eventually, after Playboy's rival magazine Penthouse had appeared (in 1965 in the UK), both magazines strove to show just a little bit more than the other, the so-called Pubic Wars."

Yet, I see no citation for this in the article. If nobody objects, I'd like to remove this from the article unless another editor has a citation for it. Caden S (talk) 23:21, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

See Pubic Wars. See also this Google search. There are enough mentions out there that we should be able to come up with a source. Or maybe use one from the Pubic Wars article. Dismas|(talk) 00:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay I found a reliable source and added the citation. Caden S (talk) 05:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Are Playboy playmates considered porn stars?

I am currently working through Category:American actors and moving the articles into subcategories, mostly by medium. There are a number of Playboy Playmates listed in this category. Some of them, such as Rebekka Armstrong, have appeared in numerous Playboy videos. Are Playmates considered porn stars or should they just be marked as film actors? Or just female adult models? They are already marked as Playboy Playmates so their film career may be assumed by that, but I'd rather not just remove their actor category without making sure.

I asked this question last week in Category talk:American porn stars, but got no response. I am also asking on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers. I am not an expert on this topic, so would appreciate any input. Thanks! -- KathrynLybarger (talk) 16:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say female adult models 76.66.193.90 (talk) 12:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
While the Playboy videos would be labelled as pornography, the women in them are generally not thought of as porn stars according to the (WP:OR warning) usual pop culture definition of the term "porn star". Erotic actors, maybe, but not porn stars. Of the cats that you listed, female adult models probably fits best. Dismas|(talk) 13:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

First Playmate without pubic hair

In the "Playmate firsts" section, the first Playmate without pubic hair is listed as Dalene Kurtis (Miss September 2001). However, Victoria Valentino (Miss September 1963) is clearly without pubic hair in two of her pictures. One of her pictures, where she is lying supine, leaning on her right arm (on a puce pillow) with her left arm draped across her stomach, you can clearly see she is without pubic hair. It is possible in this photo to see the beginning crease of her vagina, and no pubic hair is to be found. Why am I mentioning this? Because I intend to change the page to reflect Victoria Valentino as the first Playmate without pubic hair. Justafriendlyguy (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:21, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Playmate → Playboy Playmate — To most people a playmate is "a companion for someone (especially a child) to play with" in a non-sexual sense. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:23, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Virgin Playmate

Why isn't the "Virgin Playmate" listed on the notables list? Donna Edmonson (sp?) 76.66.193.90 (talk) 12:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Most likely because we lack a reliable source. But that's just a guess. Dismas|(talk) 13:34, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Donna Edmondson's status as a Virgin Playmate is not at all unique. She's the only Playmate so far to have identified herself as a virgin in her actual Playmate of the Month article (and that is probably as reliable a source as you're going to get) but over the years there have been a number of other Playmates who have revealed in other sources (the Playmate Book, the Playboy Cyber Club and other magazines) that they were virgins when they posed for Playboy. PhantomWSO (talk) 06:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Should the following be added to the article?

Virgin Playmates
Donna Edmondson, Miss November 1986, said in her Centerfold article, "Men are wonderful, but I haven't really let one close enough to me that I can talk about sex the way some girls can. Virginity isn't something you discuss. I'm not ashamed of still having mine, mind you. It's just not something I really want to talk about -- except, of course, with the man who takes it away from me." For that, she became known as "THE Virgin Playmate," but she is by no means unique in that status. There are a number of other Playmates who have divulged in various other media that they were still virgins when they posed for their centerfolds. While this is not an all-inclusive list, some of the other more memorable Virgin Playmates include:
Dolores Del Monte (Miss March 1954); Mentioned in a Playboy Cyber Club chat that she was a virgin when she posed for what would become her centerfold. At the age of 18, she was asked if she did figure modeling. "I was not really prepared to pose nude," Dolores said in her Cyber Club Biography page, "but... I didn't want to appear naive.... I didn't really even know what 'figure modeling' meant, but I found out quickly enough."
Marlene Callahan (Miss November 1957); She mentioned in a Cyber Club chat that after posing for her Centerfold, "I got married just to have sex. I was a virgin until then. The last one."
Marianne Gaba (Miss September 1959); She mentioned in her writeup in The Playmate Book that she was a virgin when she married sometime in the early '60s.
Nancy Jo Hooper (Miss February 1964); In her writeup in The Playmate Book, photographer Pompeo Posar says he found out she was a virgin in the midst of the photo session when he asked her to give him "a little bit more sexy look" and she replied, "I don't know anything about sex!"
Sue Bernard (Miss December 1966); She said in a 1997 interview in Femme Fatales magazine (which did an article on her father, photographer Bruno Bernard), "I was the first under-18 Jewish virgin who was in the centerfold in front of a Christmas tree" (it was published well after her 18th birthday), and also says "It was the first time I had taken my clothes off in front of anyone... except maybe my mother...."
Nancy Harwood (Miss February 1968); On her Biographical Update page in the Cyber Club website, she is quoted as saying, "I was really inexperienced-- still a virgin, in fact-- when I posed for the magazine".
Charlotte Kemp (Miss December 1982); She said in the Cyber Club Chatroom, "My first test shoot, I was scared to death. I was still a virgin so taking off my clothes for the camera was absolutely intimidating, but a little red wine definitely helped.... I was very restricted in high school. I was a prude and never was in touch with my sexuality. This was a way to get in touch with my sexuality."
Veronica Gamba (Miss November 1983); She said in the Biography section of her Cyber Club Personal page, "My mother brought me up very sheltered because I didn't have a father, and she just wanted to make sure that I was always untouched. But it was actually my mom who talked me into posing. I was doing a movie, Smokey and the Bandit III, and the director asked me if I'd be interested in Playboy. I went home that night and told my mom, and she said, 'Why not? It'd be great exposure for you.'... I got married right after my issue came out. I had only known him two months before the wedding.... When I was first married, I had no experience. No men, no nothing."

Please discuss. You're welcome to actually copy and paste the above into the Main Article without me if we have a consensus. PhantomWSO (talk) 20:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Playmates decidedly need to be on the centerfold?

I was under the impression that a Playmate doesn't necessarily have to be a Playmate of the Month, as is described in the first sentence of the article. Was I wrong? Aditya(talk • contribs) 16:03, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to add If I'm wrong then some editing will be required at the article on Jayne Marie Mansfield. Aditya(talk • contribs) 16:28, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you're wrong. Playmate and Playmate of the Month are the same thing. 'Playmate' is the title for the girl who appears on the centrefold spread, not anyone else in Playboy. There are 12 Playmates each year. Queer Scout (talk) 01:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Ditto to what Queer Scout said. Just the centerfold is considered to be a Playmate. All the rest are simply models. Dismas|(talk) 04:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
And the article is correct in that Jayne Marie Mansfield's mother, Jayne Mansfield was a Playmate. Dismas|(talk) 04:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

In No Agenda Show #332 Adam Curry claims his ex-wife Patricia Paay is the "oldest playmate" and listed as such in the Guiness world records. [2] seems to back that up. But it may be they are both using "Playmate" in the non-centerfold sense, I don't know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.217.50 (talk) 17:11, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Gloria Steinem's autobiographical journalism article

Gloria Steinem's stint as a playmate isn't even mentioned in this article? Or her historic article about it? That situation must be rectified... OttawaAC (talk) 02:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Steinem was never a Playboy Playmate. She worked at a Playboy Club as a "Playboy Bunny" and that was what her article (and movie A Bunny's Tale) is about. This article is only about those women who posed for a centerfold. (It is also a common error to refer to any female who appears in Playboy as a "Playmate", but this title only belongs to those who appear in the centerfold.) So there is nothing to rectify. 68.146.72.113 (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Jennifer Jackson first African-American PM

Sadly I no longer own a copy (it would be worth a few bucks if I did), but the Canadian printing of the March 1965 issue of Playboy also had no centerfold in it. It had a single, clothed, headshot of Jennifer Jackson, the first African-American Playmate, but no layout. Should this be mentioned? 68.146.72.113 (talk) 21:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Notability

I've been looking at other articles with respect to notability, eg "notable residents" for location articles and the like. After looking at some guidelines, notability is determined if the subject warrants having their OWN article, not just being on a list -- like many of the playmate by year articles list. I propose removing the non-notable playmates from this article's "notable" section using the same rationale. I am NOT proposing to remove every playmate that does not have an article, because some of them might be notable and have yet to have their article created yet. I think each person should be reviewed accordingly and determine if they are notable outside of their playboy appearances. Thanks for your feedback. Fasttimes68 (talk) 19:23, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

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Lena Söderberg

Should we add Lena Söderberg to the list of notable playmates, due to the popularity of the Lenna image? Ahyangyi (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Early Playmate of the Year information/scholarship

I include this information here to aid in someone writing text for the Playmate of the Year section (I suck at Wiki editing). The current text indicates that Ellen Stratton "won" PMOY, while Lisa Winters and Joyce Nizzari did not "win." Please read and comment as needed, but I believe Winters and Nizzari should be mentioned even if annotation is needed. Of special note is there does not appear to have been vote requests for the 1960 PMOY, unless there was a card included in the magazines.

Regarding the early days of Playmate of the Year (all quotes from Playboy are included for scholarship and should be fair use):

Lisa Winters was the first Playmate referred to as “Playmate of the Year,” (though the title appears unofficial), having won selection from readers' votes solicited in the January, 1957 “Playmate Review.” Her title is revealed on page 20, vol. 4, no. 6 – June, 1957 issue, the last sentence in the "Winters, the Winner" pictorial ends with “...your Playmate of the Year." Further, in the January 1997 issue's “Playmate Revisited: Lisa Winters” article, the caption on the first set of pictures says, “She was the easy winner of Playmate of the Year honors.” (vol. 44, no. 1, pg. 125 – January, 1997) (emphasis added)

Joyce Nizzari was also referred to as "Playmate of the Year," although not as clearly as Winters. In the January 1959 "Playboy's Playmate Review" pictorial, which includes all thirteen 1958 Playmates, including Joyce Nizzari, votes for Playmate of the Year are solicited with the text, "Which of the lucky 13 gets your vote as Playmate of the Year?" (Pg 57, vol .6, no. 1 – January, 1959). In the April 1959 issue, in the “PLAYMATE OF THE YEAR” subsection of “DEAR PLAYBOY”, in which several readers letters are quoted as voting for PMOY, states, “Readers' choice for Playmate of the Year: Miss December, Joyce Nizzari.” (Page 8, vol. 6, no. 4 – April, 1959). An additional reference to her title is in the article "Slick Chick Flick Pick" of the May 1959 issue with the sentence “Joyce, who has since been picked by PLAYBOY readers as their favorite Playmate of the Year, plays Keenan Wynn's secretary in the picture.” (Pg 67, vol. 6, no. 5 – May 1959) There appears to be no special pictorial for Miss Nizzari as PMOY.

The reasons for no 1958 PMOY and the lack of 1959 PMOY fanfare are pure speculation and best left as such.

Ellen Stratton was the first official Playmate of the Year. The official status comes from Playboy itself (see below). Her Playmate of the Year pictorial was the first titled as such. (Cover, Table of contents, page 25 and pictorial page 68 , vol. 7, no. 6 – June, 1960, though no reference to her status of first “official” PMOY.) (This writer was unable to find any solicitation for votes to pick the PMOY from the 1959 Playmates in any of the 1960 issues, but I did not read every page of all five issues preceding the PMOY issue. The Dear Playboy sections of all five were examined.)

Playboy does appear to consider Ellen Stratton the first PMOY. For example, Playmates.com, a Playboy Enterprises website, has a list of Playmates which labels the Playmates of the Year. While some Playmates are missing from the list, notably Lisa Winters, among others, Joyce Nizzari is listed and NOT labeled as PMOY, while Ellen Stratton is the earliest Playmate identified as PMOY (for 1960). (www.playmates.com/playmates fetched 7-31-2019) This despite the earlier references to Playmate of the Year and the 1997 mention of Winters as PMOY.

These earlier references to Playmate of the Year include: The January 1957 “Playmate Review” solicitation for votes to select Playmate of the Year; "Which one, would you say, deserves the title: Playmate of the Year?" (Pg. 57, vol. 4, no 1 – January, 1957). NB: this may be the first reference to “Playmate of the Year”. In April 1957, a reader's letter in “Dear Playboy” indicates they'd vote for Lisa Winters as Playmate of the Year. (Pg. 6, vol. 4, no. 4 – April, 1957) The June 1957 Lisa Winters “Winters the Winner” pictorial. (Pg. 20, vol. 4, no. 6 – June, 1957) The January 1959 “Playmate Review” solicitation for votes to select Playmate of the Year. (Pg 57, vol .6, no. 1 – January, 1959) The April 1959 references in “Dear Playboy.” (Pg. 8, vol. 6, no. 4 – April, 1959) The May 1959 reference in “Slick Chick Flick Pick.” (Pg. 67, vol. 6, no. 5 – May 1959) There is no reference to PMOY in the January 1960 “Playmate Review” (Pg. 61, vol. 7, no. 1 – January, 1960) NB: despite no vote solicitation, Ellen Stratton was selected as 1960 PMOY and is the first “official” PMOY.

Text of Winters, the Winner Pictorial:

WINTERS, THE WINNER a shy, shapely lisa tops the popular playmate poll

IN LAST JANUARY'S Playmate Review, we asked readers to choose their favorite beauty of the year just past. The torrent of letters and telegrams that poured in left no doubt about who copped the title of most popular Playmate of 1956: Lisa Winters, hands down. The unusual twist about it all was that the lovely Lisa had never done a day of professional modeling in her life, was in reality a quiet, well-scrubbed, stay-at-home when photographer Bunny Yeager first spotted her waiting for a bus on a downtown Miami street corner. When Lisa appeared as PLAYBOY'S December Playmate, things began popping. Movie Moguls at Warner Brothers, Paramount, Twentieth Century-Fox and Universal-International proffered long-term contracts (none of which she has yet accepted); there were countless modeling and television offers, too; and she is being talked about as a possible lead in the upcoming biography, The Jean Harlow Story. All of these accolades have left a shy, book-loving blonde somewhat dazed, but exceedingly happy. Bunny Yeager (who is now Lisa's personal manager) invited a Bikini-bedecked Lisa for a day at the beach and snapped these fetching photos of your Playmate of the Year.

Text of the April 1959 relevant Dear Playboy section, the editors' comment is the last line and was italicized in print:

PLAYMATE OF THE YEAR

After glomming your January Playmate Review, I enthusiastically nominate Joan Staley as Playmate of the Year. Mara Corday and Joyce Nizzari are my choices of alternates, with your own Judy Lee Tomerlin as a close runner-up. F. Vernon Tatum New York, New York

Playmate of the Year? Linné Nanette Ahlstrand, of course! Mike Gibson Houston, Texas

Joyce Nizzari. Ken Busch Charles Town, West Virginia

Elizabeth Ann Robers. John MacIntyre Princeton, New Jersey

Myrna Weber. John D.Addamio Plainfield, New Jersey

Joyce, Joyce, Joyce, Joyce, Joyce, Joyce, Joyce! Charles Simmons San Francisco, California

Readers' choice for Playmate of the Year: Miss December, Joyce Nizzari.

Text of Ellen Stratton's PMOY pictorial:

pictorial PLAYMATE OF THE YEAR

LAST YEAR'S LAST PLAYMATE turned out to be that twelvemonth's favorite. Ellen Stratton is her name, legal secretary her vocation, and she enhanced the happy holiday air of the December 1959 PLAYBOY by posing prettily in the centerfold with a sprig of mistletoe and little else. Since her appearance here, Ellen has enjoyed another kind of exposure: she was a TV guest on Playboy's Penthouse, and made a number of promotional appearances for PLAYBOY besides. But her sudden movement into the limelight hasn't turned Ellen's head: she's still a secretary in the West Coast law firm where she's worked for the last three years, and her dream of someday being a lady lawyer has come one step closer with her recent enrollment in nighttime law courses. Should she reach her goal. we predict that the courts she works in will enjoy SRO attendance. But whether or not she becomes a modern Portia, Ellen has already been tried and judged a standout among the county's most popular group of girl – PLAYBOY's Playmates.

legal secretary ellen stratton reviews her case

With Ellen Stratton representing you in the courtroom, could a male jury do anything but decide in your favor?

PHOTOGRAPY BY WILLIAM GRAHAM

JohnMc (talk) 17:00, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Margaret Scott

I made the change regarding Margaret Scott, as this information is provided on Playboy's Official Website at: http://www.playboy.com/playmates/faq/ [link broken?]

The FAQ and answer are:

Who has appeared the most times as a Playmate?

Margaret Scott and Janet Pilgrim each appeared as Playmates three times. Margaret was the Playmate in our February 1954, April 1954 and April 1955 issues (the latter two appearances were as Marilyn Waltz). Janet Pilgrim was the Playmate in July 1955, December 1955 and October 1956. The only other women who have appeared as Playmates more than once are Margie Harrison (January 1954 and June 1954) and Marguerite Empey (May 1955 and February 1956).

Ric Zborovszky - kitsbeach@telus.net

First Photos of Pubic Hair?

There is a correction in the article saying the first example was in 1956 with Marguerite Empey underwater. This directly contradicts what Playboy says here (http://www.playboy.com/playmates/faq/milestones.html). [link broken?] However, at the same time I found on this site that seem to corroborate the correction (http://www.sprawl.it/playmate/50.php) [link broken?]. I'm leaving it alone for now. I also corrected a few name errors becuase the original correction had Magaret Empey and Dianne Weber rather than Marguerite Empey and Diane Webber.

I've flipped through an entire pdf copy of the February 1956 issue. There are no photos of anyone underwater, anywhere in the issue, let alone the aforementioned picture of Empey. It may well have been taken and available in 1956, but it wasn't published in Playboy that year, nor in the Jan 1957 Playmate Review. Perhaps the listing of things about Playmates should be limited to things published in Playboy and the dates of such publication. Activity outside the magazine may be noteworthy and perhaps noted here, but with a clear "outside of published Playboy information" sort of flag. JohnMc (talk) 13:28, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Number of PoM

By my count, there were 801 women as POMs to the end of 2020. This is including Marilyn Monroe and counting multiple appearances only once. Could someone please confirm? CFLeon (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

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