Talk:Planet Fitness/Archives/2020

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Article appears sanitized

A major point of Planet Fitness' reputation within the fitness community appears to be completely avoided by the article. These include but are not limited to fitness policies hostile to working out, advertising campaigns designed to alienate those who regularly work out, and provision of free candy and pizza. On viewing the edit history, they seem to have been mentioned before, but are quickly, diligently and thoroughly scrubbed. The only good reason I can see for this is that in most (but not all) cases they are accompanied by reports of discrimination, controversy or poor service associated with one branch only. Why is this so? 71.92.168.130 (talk) 16:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources documenting this reputation within the fitness community? I've found a lot of personal blogs and forums discussing this, but nothing from other reliable sources.Stonkaments (talk) 20:51, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Needs research

Rick Berks started Planet Fitness in the 90s and it wasn't even mentioned in the history. A simple Google search verifies this; this article made it sound like the current owners thought of the idea.

I'm not sure that's right. It sounds like the founders developed the business model for their gyms on their own as far back as 1993, and in 2002 simply acquired the Planet Fitness trademark from Rick Berks. So it seems like the History section should focus on the gym business of the Grondhal brothers - Rick Berks' Planet Fitness is only relevant because of the name.Stonkaments (talk) 20:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
If we are talking about the history of Planet Fitness here, then yes, Rick Berks needs to be mentioned. He came up with the concept and name of Planet Fitness, and owned a few locations before selling it to Grondhal in 1993. He did a lot more than just selling a trademark. https://miamiherald.typepad.com/the-starting-gate/2014/01/youfit-health-club-expanding-across-south-florida-around-nation.html Katherine311MH (talk) 02:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
That article does not say he came up with the concept for Planet Fitness. From what I can see, the only relevant line in the article says, "He started Planet Fitness in Sunrise in 1993, and grew it to three clubs before selling the brand in 2002 to a group in New Hampshire, which began franchising the concept." The rest of the article talks about YouFit, Berks' new gym brand that was developed well after he sold the Planet Fitness trademark.Stonkaments (talk) 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
There are sources that discuss Rick Berk's idea of Planet Fitness and how it was a reaction to the body builder culture of his Gold's Gym franchise. https://clubsolutionsmagazine.com/2013/11/youfit-health-clubs/ Katherine311MH (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
The official Planet Fitness history says that it was "founded in 1992, in Dover, NH by brothers Michael and Marc Grondahl."[[1]]
Many articles referenced in the article also state this:
Thus I disagree with your description as Berks as the original founder of Planet Fitness, and ask that you refrain making further edits to this effect until we reach a consensus.Stonkaments (talk) 15:36, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

It is not clear why you are ignoring the facts. There is confusion obviously, some of it pertains to the court case between Berks and the current owners: http://www.nhd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/04/04NH159.PDF From the case:

"Planet Fitness Enterprises, Inc., ("PFE") operates three fitness centers under the name "Planet Fitness," in southern Florida. Rick Berks is its president. PFE began using the name "Planet Fitness" in 1993 under a registered trademark, and PFIP began using the same name several years later.

PFIP brought a cancellation proceeding against PFE to stop its use of the name "Planet Fitness" but dropped the proceeding when it learned of PFE's prior use of the name. PFIP then began negotiations with Berks to resolve use of the name. Berks and Michael Grondahl, the director of PFIP, discussed the matter by telephone between New Hampshire and Florida. Berks's Florida attorney reviewed the documents. Their negotiations led to an agreement that was signed in April of 2002. Under the agreement, PFIP purchased PFE's registered trademark for "Planet Fitness" for $75,000 and granted PFE a license to use the trademark within a specified area of southern Florida."

Katherine311MH (talk) 16:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

What facts am I ignoring? This article is about Planet Fitness (PFIP LLC), not Planet Fitness Enterprises ("PFE"). It sounds like you're conflating the two.Stonkaments (talk) 16:49, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
The legal document states that Rick Berks was the founder of Planet Fitness and Michael Grondahl bought the trademark.
Rick Berks does belong in the history of Planet Fitness. He started it, had it for years and owned several before the trademark was purchased. That said, I do agree that the brothers turned it into a megabrand. Perhaps we should create two subsections history areas? Something like, "Original Planet Fitness" and "Franchised Planet Fitness"?
Katherine311MH (talk) 18:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree that Berks deserves mention in the history of Planet Fitness. The current version has a whole paragraph devoted to the history of his Planet Fitness gyms in Florida, selling the trademark, etc. Where we disagree is in your decision to overlook and ignore the history of the Grondhal brothers' Planet Fitness dating back to 1992 in New Hampshire. Per the majority of reliable sources, the Grondhal brothers are the founders of Planet Fitness and article needs to reflect that. Please stop reverting the edits until we reach a consensus with other editors weighing in.Stonkaments (talk) 19:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Please stop deleting my edits until the discussion is resolved.

Perhaps we need to include the legal case notes so it is clear to the reader what is going on? This statement is contradictory to the legal document,"Planet Fitness was founded in 1992, in Dover, New Hampshire, when Michael and Marc Grondahl acquired a financially struggling gym and dramatically reduced prices to compete against better-known brands." It is not my intention to ignore their incredible history whatsoever. The confusion lies in that Rick Berks started Planet Fitness in 1993 and ran his own gyms under that name for eight years before the brothers bought the trademark. Was their gym named something else during this time? If so, why not include that in the History?
Katherine311MH (talk) 19:38, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
@Katherine311MH:, please format your comments with proper indentation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Talk_pages#Indentation. I have fixed your last two comments accordingly.
I'm unaware of any previous names used by the Grondahl brothers for their gyms. Do you have any references to that information? Regardless, it still seems to me that you are too focused on the name Planet Fitness and not the underlying business that was founded by the Grondahls in 1992. And one legal document should not be solely relied upon to the exclusion of all other reliable sources. Stonkaments (talk) 20:09, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I am trying to make the content clear for the reader. A legal document and multiple links on the internet state that Rick Berks founded Planet Fitness. There are also links that say the brothers founded it. According to the legal document, the brothers were using the name without the rights. Eventually they bought the trademark and allowed Berks to use it on the gyms he already owned under the name. Perhaps we should add that to the history so that the different accounts are clear? Some links that mention Berks:
It appears this user is a WP:SPA. Their contributions are all advocating for Rick Berks — working on a standalone article for him, and pushing edits emphasizing his role in the history of Planet Fitness. Stonkaments (talk) 20:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
I am not advocating or pushing anything. I came to this page out of curiosity and added the Rick Berks section. I started a wiki page about him after the fact. I'll make one for the brothers once we get the facts straight, too. As far as sources, as I originally stated, a simple Google search on Berks mentions him as the founder of Planet Fitness in many articles.

Katherine311MH (talk) 20:14, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Legal documents such as the one mentioned above are primary sources. WP:PRIMARY says: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. The related page WP:BLPPRIMARY says Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. This is partly because such records do not always tell a complete story in a single document. IMO it would be better to find a reliable secondary source, if one exists, for the outcome of the trademark dispute. None of which says that Rick Berks should not be mentioned in the article. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 20:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Uninvolved third party coming over from help desk

I reviewed the coverage and have come up with the following timeline. It's a bit messy and there are conflicting reports (see below), but this seems to make the most sense to me:

In 1992, Mike and Marc Grondahl bought a Gold’s gym franchise in Dover.[[2]] They closed that original location, and in 1993 they bought a new location named Coastal Fitness. They brought on a third partner, Chris Rondeau.[[3]]

In 1993, Rick Berks, a former Gold's Gym franchisee, converted his gym into Planet Fitness, named after his daughter's school project "Fitness Planet". In 2002, after opening several locations, Berks sold the trademark to the Grondahls' and Rondeau's ownership company, keeping several Planet Fitness gyms in South Florida.[[4]] (Youfit is obviously an unreliable source, but the info is uncontroversial) [[5]][[6]] (Tampa Bay calls him a co-founder which isn't correct in my mind.)

On April 1, 2008, Berks converted one of his Planet Fitness clubs to the first Youfit Health Club in St. Petersburg, Florida, and eventually converted the rest.[[7]] (unreliable source, but uncontroversial)

So Berks founded the original Planet Fitness health clubs in 1993, but the company that was to become the current Planet Fitness was founded by the Grondahls in 1993.[[8]] The Grondahls changed their gym name from whatever it was (can't find anything besides Coastal Fitness), by buying the Planet Fitness trademark in 2002. Berks parted ways in 2008 by converting his Planet Fitnesses into Youfits, but that's the extent of the shared history.

This source says the original Planet Fitness was founded in 1992 by the Grondahls, but I think that's incorrect. The paper didn't research and was most likely reporting based on a verbal account.[[9]]

This source suggests that Planet Fitness started franchising in 2002, the year the name was bought by the Grondahls. That suggests that Berks' original South Florida clubs were franchises, before he converted them to Youfit.[[10]] TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 22:19, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time, and for your input! I agree that history makes the sense to me too. The only thing I'm not sure on is your conclusion that the last source (entrepeneur.com) suggests Berks' gyms in South Florida were franchises of the current Planet Fitness. The source says: "In 2003, Eric Dore and Shane McGuiness opened the chain's first franchised location in Altamonte Springs, Fla." So to me that implies that Berks' gyms were not franchises of the current Planet Fitness.
I also found an interview where Marc Grondahl says they started using the name Planet Fitness in 1994.[[11]] So it seems the Grondahl business' timeline was: Gold's Gym (1992), Coastal Fitness (1993), Planet Fitness (1994 to present).
I have tried to incorporate your input into the most recent edit. Please let me know if you have any additional feedback. Thanks Stonkaments (talk) 00:15, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
My head spins, but if Berks sold the Planet Fitness name in 2002, the Grondahl's couldn't be using the name before that. Also, if the name was bought but Berks got to keep his Planet Fitness gyms when the franchising started, it seems that they would be considered franchises. He then could have started Youfit in 2008 to escape the franchise restrictions. TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 01:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
My understanding is that both parties were in fact using the name Planet Fitness before 2002, as evidenced by the court case linked earlier:[[12]] "PFE began using the name 'Planet Fitness' in 1993 under a registered trademark, and PFIP began using the same name several years later. PFIP brought a cancellation proceeding against PFE to stop its use of the name 'Planet Fitness' but dropped the proceeding when it learned of PFE's prior use of the name. PFIP then began negotiations with Berks to resolve use of the name." And those negotiations ultimately led to Berks selling the trademark rights in 2002.
The court case also provides further details on Berks' relationship with Planet Fitness after selling the trademark. They discussed the possibility of Berks selling his gym business to the Grondahls, but never reached an agreement on a sale. They also discussed the possibility of Berks becoming a franchisee, but again, never reached an agreement (hence the lawsuit over trademark infringement in 2004, for Berks allegedly using Planet Fitness trademarks after selling the rights).
That's my best understanding of the matter at least. I agree, it's quite a messy history to try to wrap one's head around. Stonkaments (talk) 01:59, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for your thorough research! Glad that we can move on. Katherine311MH (talk) 19:38, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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