Talk:Newry/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Pronunciation?

What is the correct pronunciation of Newry? If it's relevant, I might possibly add a note to the Newry, PA page -- nobody there knows the correct - or at least ORIGINAL pronunciation either. - Wishkres 15:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As a citizen of Newry, I pronounce the name Newry like "Nur-Ree". This is due in part from Iúr in Iúr Cinn Trá, which is the correct historical and offical name for Newry in Gaeilge.

--RÓ2000 20:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Map

Why are only 6 counties shown on the map? We do not live on a 6 county island surrounded by water! Newry should be shown within its proper context i.e. the island of Ireland. more importantly how come there's nothing about all the pykies? surely they make up a substantial proportion of the population?

The majority of travellers in Newry are Roman Catholics

--Macphisto 00:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The travelling community are an ethnic group within Newry and thus may be mentioned, however not if it is within a mocking term as i am sensing from the user who brought this up. It could also be argued to include a section on the "New-Irish" that have come into our city from the Polish and Eastern European communities and the contributions that they are making, both in Economic terms and socially. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 20:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Questions

Is anyone else having trouble with the photograph on the far left side of the screen?

Namely, unable to see the top half of the toolbar because the picture is obstructing that part of the screen.

Is there any way to fix it so that the first photo takes up less space?

Ruthfulbarbarity 20:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

why is the 6 county map used to indicate Newry's location? This gives the impression that we live on the south coast of an island?????

Emm possibly that is because it is the country boundry map that Newry is part of -- look it up in an atlas sometime —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus99 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Diversity

Quote: 89.6% were from a Catholic background and 9.4% were from a Protestant background

That is 100%? Somehow I don't think that's right! Surely 100% of the population of Newry does not show loyalty to ONLY those two; what about those that say 'none'? This is definitely a dodgy fact. 88.110.72.249 23:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because the remaining percentage is so small it's not worth talking about, also 9.4% from a Protestant background is a ridiculously high figure. Its closer to 4%. macphisto 01:09, 06 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so it's "closer to 4%" is it? Well, the 9.4% figure comes from The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency. Where does your 4% figure come from? Loose talk at the bar? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.34.40 (talk) 22:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, I guess it is possible to say that those from a Roman Catholic and Protestant background maybe historical backgrounds and some within them groups may not actually practice their religions. -- RÓNÁN "Caint / Talk" 22:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Having worked for the Northern Ireland Statistics Research Agency in the past I can say that Macphisto is probably closer to the truth than the 9.4% figure. In addition to this it's important to remember that the terminology is "Catholic background" or "Protestant background" not "practising Roman Catholic" etc., RÓNÁN is being very kind when he says "some within them groups may not actually practice their religions", its a sizeable percentage of the population.

The Troubles

Are we really saying that 2,460 people were killed in Newry during The Troubles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.34.40 (talk) 23:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Population

Surely Newry's population is bigger than 27,000!? JFBurton (talk) 20:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Newry and Mourne District Council Logo

Why is this logo on display? Surely the article is about Newry not the District Council Area?Eog1916 (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I removed it. The map will do nicely for the infobox. Alastairward (talk) 15:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Infobox country

There is plenty of other vandalism, using the definition as defined by Wikipedia i.e. "posting nonsense", for instance apparently Newry is in a country called Northern Ireland when 99.9% of its inhabitants would say that they lived in a province of that name. Why is Wikipedia allowing itself be hijacked by pot stirring elements using politically contentious terminology when non contentious terminology used by the vast majority of people, of both traditions, is available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.43.139.207 (talk) 19:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

That's quite politically loaded (as well as completely uncited). I don't think you should wade into this one with so much gusto, the fact that you've been reverted so often should let you see that. Alastairward (talk) 07:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

City Status

While I understand that Newry has official city status from the Queen, does anyone agree that it would be reasonable for us to add that most people regard it as a town? (The same goes to Lisburn and Armagh) Jonto 21:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

On a different point, Newry is a city in the sense of honourific status - however it is not a distinct administrative unit. Djegan 21:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Newry is regarded as a town by most inhabitants

Most of the population of Newry, being Irish Republicans and Nationalists would like it to be in the Republic of Ireland, but just simply wanting or thinking it doesn't make it the case. The same applies as to whether they think its a town or a city. It is in FACT a city and the locals opinion does not warrant mention in this circumstance Milzo1986 —Preceding undated comment added 01:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC).

Vandalism by User:Macco Baish Tite

I've put warnings on this clown's user page, he's on his way to getting himself barred. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 18:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Why Te-le-ur?

Iúr cinn trá = the first letter is an "i" and not an "l". So an tIur - this is t followed by i, not t followed by l. So why would it be te=le=ur? That is just wrong. An tIúr is pronounced "un Tyoor" /ən tʲu:r/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.123.211 (talk) 12:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Blame the san serif font. In the article it is a capital i for India, not l for Llama.--Chuunen Baka (talk) 10:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. +An gr 09:40, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Sir Henry Bagenal

The history section states that Sir Henry Bagenal took over the site of a monastery in 1550 which is approximately 6 years before he was born. I think this might be an error. 92.0.216.225 (talk) 10:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Well spotted. It was Nicholas Bagenal, not Henry. I've found a cite and fixed it. --Chuunen Baka (talk • contribs) 12:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Newry a city?

This has to be a joke. It hasn't even the population of Drogheda never mind the medieval heritage of that town. It sounds really pompous for a regional Irish town to be going around with these notions. According to the BBC footnote, Newry only became a "city" in 2002 and this was due to its British "royal connections". So much for Newry being an Irish "nationalist town". 86.44.62.178 (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Is there any point to this at all beyond rabble-rousing?81.149.145.36 (talk) 15:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Fourth Largest City?

According to the first line of the article, Newry is the fourth-largest city in Northern Ireland.

According to http://www.ukcities.co.uk/populations/, it's population of 30000 is smaller than Belfast (280000), Lisburn (110000), Londonderry (105000) and Armagh (55000). So it should be the fifth largest city in Northern Ireland.

However, I think the far more useful statement is that it is the smallest of the five cities in Northern Ireland. DavidNorman99 (talk) 14:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Scots

So Newry is Newrie in Scots? C'mon, that's just taking the piss, eh? 92.11.52.106 (talk) 18:35, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

It's sourced, I'm afraid. Is there a point to this crusade? JonChapple ^Talk 20:23, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Are these Scots names genuine or have they been made-up recently as part of the tax-payer funded Ulstèr-Scotch malarkey that came out of the Good Friday Agreement? If I could source an "official" document explaining how the world was created by a god, in 6 days, about 6000 years ago, could I add that piece of wisdom to the article earth, as a reliable source explaining the origins of our planet? 92.11.52.106 (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

To your first point; either or, it doesn't really matter. If there's a Ulster-Scots name and it can be sourced, then it belongs in the article. If you can find a more "authentic" version that you don't think was "made up as part of the tax-payer funded Ulstèr-Scotch malarkey", then by all means please add it. And to your second; yes. Although I think you'd probably need video evidence or something. JonChapple ^Talk 22:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Is adding made-up stuff to articles, even if it can be sourced, encyclopedic? Are the references provided perhaps from sources that are usually not reliable? Surely some comment about the dubious validity of the information would be wise, or include it in the article as a snippet of 'interesting' trivia. 92.11.52.106 (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you can get much more reliable than UK gov't/NI Assembly sites, which is where the majority of the Scots names are from. JonChapple ^Talk 22:44, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The information regarding the Scots names may come from UK gov't/NI Assembly sites but is it factually accurate? Have the names or spellings of names been made-up by the author? Why does it seem that there are no other sources for those names or spellings? If a UK gov't/NI Assembly site stated that the moon was made of cheese would that make that piece of wisdom factually accurate? 92.11.52.106 (talk) 23:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

What's the real Scots name for Newry then? I bow to your superior source-finding abilities. JonChapple ^Talk 08:10, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Never mind the politics, surely there must be a better reference for the spelling of place names in USc? For all I can tell the given cite might be one spelling mistake in one local gov doc. --Chuunen Baka (talk • contribs) 08:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Added a couple more. "Newrie" is the spelling consistently used by N/S Ministerial Council and a number of NI gov't departments. If anyone can find any alternative USc names for Newry, feel free to add them in. JonChapple ^Talk 08:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The names in the infobox are for modern versions of placenames. If the spelling is sourced then its sourced unless a source arises that contradicts it, which is potentially possible in Ulster-Scots as it doesn't have a fully defined exact codified written spelling system at the moment due to the fact Ulster-Scots was primarily until the last decade a spoken language rather than a spoken and written one - but then again many Irish places have various different spellings which different sources attest to and we have to choose one of them over the other, i.e. Tulaigh or Tullach for Tully. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:48, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

An Iúraigh vs. An tIúr

Why was An tIúr removed from the lead sentence. I don't see why we should be using as the initial Irish translation for the town a word which is not used in modern Irish and has no official status and is only a "suggested" derivation - i.e. one which may or may not be true - over one which is used officially and in common practice, also with sources??? (www.logainm.ie/1166280.aspx)? I have no problem mentioning An Iúraigh later in the article (in the name section) but to keep it at the start as currently exists makes it very clear that either Iúr Cinn Trá (a very common Irish language name for the town) or An Iúraigh (a non-existant name for the town except in historical circles and only a suggested term at that) are the official names for the town. This is simply wrong and misleading.^Mac Tíre _Cowag 09:54, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand wher you'r coming from, but WP:IMOS#Other names states that only etymologies may be given in the lede (for NI articles). Iúr Cinn Trá and An Iúraigh ar both noted as (possible) origins of Newry. An tIúr is a modern shortening of Iúr Cinn Trá so it belongs in the infobox. ~Asarlaí 13:10, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough so. Pity about the "An Iúraigh" though. Whoever devised that list didn't take the time to investigate the Irish language behind it. "An Iúraigh" is very poor Irish at best. Places in Irish which use an element of occupation, describing animals, or describing landscape including vegetation followed by "-igh" or "aigh" ("abounding in" or "of") rarely ever take the article. "An Iúraigh" literally translates as "the.....abounding in yews" where a natural Irish speaker will instantly realise an element has been left out (i.e. is it "Baile an Iúraigh", "Teach an Iúraigh", etc.). All you have to do is to look at places such as Trummery (from "Tromraigh", abounding in elder(tree)s, cf. Baile Átha Troim" - Trim, Co. Meath), Gilky (from "Giolcaigh", abounding in broom, cf. "giolcach", broom), Clogherny (from "Clocharnaigh", abounding in stones), Cranny (from "Crannaigh", abounding in trees), Loughry (from "Luachraigh", abounding in rush, c.f. "luachair", rush), Lammey (from "Leamhaigh", abounding in elm(tree)s, c.f. "leamhán", elm), Cork (from "Corcaigh", of the swamp, c.f. "corcach", swamp), Kerry (from "Ciarraighe", (pl. ending in -e) [people] of the Ciar), Eask(e)y (from "Iascaigh", abounding in fish, c.f. "iasc", fish), etc. Iúraigh with the article (an) can be used in the dative case, as illustrated by the notes at logainm.ie (i.e. one can say "ins an Iúraigh", but you would never use a standalone "An Iúraigh"), or it can be used in the genitive case where the nominative ends in -ach or -each (e.g. nom. "An Tulach", gen. "An Tulaigh", etc.). Regarding the exclusion of An tIúr - the reference provided for An Iúraigh also gives An tIúr. If we are excluding An tIúr because it is a modern shortening then why are we also using a modern shortening in An Iúraigh - should it not be "An Iubharaigh" instead? ^Mac Tíre _Cowag 13:56, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

For the lede of NI settlements, the original Irish for it if it can be ascertained should be used rather than the modern as the English name would of derived from the original. The modern Irish name however goes in the other names bits of the infobox. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:21, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

That's fine Mabuska, but "An Iúraigh" would not have been the name the modern English name was derived from. The spelling "Iúraigh" is a 1940s-50s innovation, part of the "Great Purge" of Irish language consonants. Basically what we are doing is informing people that Newry is derived from an Irish language word which only existed after the English word existed and that this particular Irish word was unique in that it broke the rules of Irish grammar, as well as the orthographic conventions of its own time. Something is seriously wrong here!!^Mac Tíre _Cowag 21:53, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

As MacTire has noted, the etimology of Newry (unlike Downpatrick, Belfast, Derry, a.s.f.) isn't straightforward. Records show that Iubhar Cinn Trágha is the longstanding Irish name. However, it's unclear how Iubhar Cinn Trágha could lead to the anglicization Newry (a more straightforward anglicization might be somthing like Yurkintraw). The same goes for An tIubhar. Sadly, I'v been unable to find an in-depth explanation or discussion of the name's etimology.

Until one can be found, it might be best if the lede simply sed "Newry (from Irish Iubhar Cinn Trágha)". The infobox can list the modern names Iúr Cinn Trá/an tIúr, while all others can be noted in the "Name" section. ~Asarlaí 22:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Asarlai's note about the anglicisation of Iubhar Cinn Trágha. Its a very perplexing issue, however if someone had access to the volume of "Place-Names of Northern Ireland" that covers Newry (published by Queens University Belfast) - an origin would be provided with an eptymological history of the word if it isn't a straight forward one such as Newry appears to be. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:32, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Luckily my memory serves me well. Whilst i don't have access to the said volume i remarked upon, i do know of PDF's that use it as the basis of their information. Page 121 of this states:

"Newry (town), Co. Armagh/Co. Down. The modern Irish name of Newry is An tIúr 'the yew tree' being an abbreviation of Iúr Cinn Trá 'yew tree at the head of the strand'. The anglicised form comes from An Iúraigh an oblique form of An Iúrach 'the grove of yew trees' (PNI vol. I)."

Problem solved. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Good work. --Eamonnca1 ^TALK 20:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I also took the liberty to amend the Name section to match this source, as well as reformatting and updating the Townlands section. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

"Commons"

I'm curious about this townland called Commons. Could it be related to the game that was called Commons, possible anglicisation of Cammanaght (which is the modern name for Shinty in Scots Gaelic)? I know of at one other townland near Lurgan with common in its name and its etymology is certainly related to the game. Aghacommon meaning hurling field. --Eamonnca1 ^TALK 17:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It's possible but the source we hav says: "This is one of the very few place-names of purely English-language origin in the parish of Newry and its first appearance in Williamson's map of 1810 is understandably late". Of the Commons near Newtownards the database says: "Roughly a hundred Irish townlands are named Commons and the name normally refers to uncultivated land which was held in common". ~Asarlaí 18:05, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

The Place-Names NI project is a very reliable project in what it does, and its publications are invaluable in getting to the root of derivations. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup

A Wikimeet is proposed for Northern Ireland in the next few months. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Most take place on a Sunday afternoon in a suitable pub but other days and locations can also work. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Northern Ireland topics. Please add your suggestions for place and date to the discussion page here: Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

This is a reminder to please add any views you may have to the project page linked above. Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

History section needs work

There are serious WP:NPOV problems with the history section. E.g. "It was the first time since its foundation that the venerable city was in the hands of sacrilegious foreigners." These seem to originate with ten edits by 5.68.191.72 in June 2013. - Adavies42 (talk) 13:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

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"===" in the Sport>Association football>Premier Division section

Hello,

As the article is semi-protected, I will just drop that message here : under the Association section, I see a ===Premier Division=== whereas it should be a section title. There is a problem with the wikicode of that part of the article. Cheers. Tpe.g5.stan (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

There shouldn't be section headers put inside a column, instead use bold markup, i.e. '''Premier Division'''. Issue fixed now. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:59, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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