Talk:New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 4, 2011	Good article nominee	Listed

Scientology Mid‑importance

	This article is supported by WikiProject Scientology, a collaborative effort to help develop and improve Wikipedia's coverage of Scientology. The aim is to write neutral and well-referenced articles on Scientology-related topics. See WikiProject Scientology and Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ.ScientologyWikipedia:WikiProject ScientologyTemplate:WikiProject ScientologyScientology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States: September 11 Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject September 11, 2001.

New York City Low‑importance

	New York City portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.New York CityWikipedia:WikiProject New York CityTemplate:WikiProject New York CityNew York City articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Medicine Low‑importance

	Medicine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

sole purpose of the purification rundown[edit]

The article states: "However, the Purification Rundown is also used by Narconon and practicing Scientologists toward removing drug residues from the body."

However Scientology material is clear on the "sole purpose" of the purification rundown:

"The Purification Rundown has as its sole purpose the handling of the restimulative effects of drugs and toxic residuals on a Spiritual Being. The Purification Rundown is a Spiritual activity based on and administered according to the doctrine and practices of the religion of Scientology as set forth in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard and adopted by the Church. No part of the Rundown is intended as the diagnosis, prescription for, or treatment of any bodily or physical condition or ill."

Source is HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE BULLETIN OF 21 MAY 1980.

So the firefighters were sold an intro into the "religion of Scientology" and not even a pretended (bogus) cure.

Mgormez 01:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

An uncited portion of a sentence[edit]

This is uncited. I know it to be not only untrue, invalid and false, but know the technology of the Purification Rundown and have (probably) all of its technology and have read (probably) all of it. "and from their body thetans." Plain wrong. Uncited. Untrue. However, rather than simply remove it I have placed it here for "discussion and citing" because that is Wikipedia policy. Terryeo 22:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC) I see the vilifying quote was placed by an anonomous user. Terryeo 22:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, Wikipedia policy is divided on this: some think that removals should be discussed and editors should "assume good faith", and some believe that uncited material that has a hint of being untrue should be removed immediately.--Gloriamarie 20:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That introduction[edit]

Presently states: "Downtown Medical is a controversial Scientology clinic on 139 Fulton Street in New York City," and the word "controversial" is, of course, uncited. Therefore it is untrue and original research on the part of an editor unless cited. WP:NOR is the applicable policy. Besides which, simply removing the single word would make the article more encyclopedic and less biased. If there is controversy, then that should be presented with its appropriate citations, deeper in the article. Terryeo 08:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, now we have a publication supporting the opening statement. However, the article does not present the information in a neutral sort of way. The article presents every jot of negative information from the article but does not present any other portion of the news article used for the opening statment. Where is the controversy? To have controversy there must be 2 sides to it. The news article states, Cruise, however, has defended the venture, claiming, "More than 500 individuals have recovered health and job fitness through this project." which would be the opposite side of the controversy and should likewise be presented in the article. Terryeo 18:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article is sufficiently neutral for such a pseudoscientific subject. There is no proof of Cruise's claims, and there is much scientific evidence that indicates Downtown Medical's "purification" techniques are hogwash. If there's any further reworking to be done to the article, it's to be further delineating these points, not giving lip service to Tom Cruise. wikipediatrix 19:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It would incredibly stupid for Wikipedia to give lip service to anyone, the idea so violates NPOV as to be disgusting. However, when a newspaper publishes "More than 500 have been helped at downtown medical" then that, you see, can help round out the previous statement which says that there is controversy. Controversy does not exist in a vacuum, that is, there must necessarily be two sides presented. One side is presented. You suggest that side be more fully presented. Well, if it is more fully published then it should be more fully presented. However, NPOV also requires the other side be, likewise, presented. Terryeo 22:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The newspaper didn't say 500 people have been helped, it simply said that Tom Cruise said that. wikipediatrix 22:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. The newspaper says that Cruise said that. The newspaper article is the citation on which the article introduces the clinic is "controversial". The newspaper article has a photo of Cruise in its lead, the article makes several comments about Cruise, presenting certain information. Our article does likewise, but stops short of anything but the anti-clinic information which the newspaper article states. The controversial aspect remains unstated in our article. Missing is what, exactly, is being controversied about, what the 2 sides of the controversy are. Only one side of the controversy (from the newspaper article) is presented here, in our article. Terryeo 01:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe the problem is that there are two sides-- Tom Cruise says it works, many scientific bodies have said that it does not work and there's no proof. If there was proof that it works, for example a study where 500 were cured of previous problems, that would certainly be included. The controversy arises from the fact that these claims are made and no proof given. I don't see what the controversy is about the controversy :) --Gloriamarie 20:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. If there is a controversy it must have two sides. But then maybe it is the Scientology treatments that are controversial, not Downtown Medical itself. Steve Dufour 03:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Citations to be added to the article...[edit]

AP and Post Wire Services (April 19, 2007). "Crui$ing for Cash". New York Post. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Staff (April 19, 2007). "Cruise to detox NY". Sunday Times, Australia. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Smith, Kyle (April 20, 2007). "Don't Be Tricked By $ci-Fi Tom-Foolery". New York Post. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Seifman, David (April 20, 2). "Crui$e is 'Detox' of De Town". New York Post. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Sanchez, Hazel (April 20, 2007). "Cruise Thinks Scientology Can Save 9/11 Responders". WCBS-TV. CBS. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Staff (April 20, 2007). "Tom Cruise holds fundraiser for Scientology 9/11 detox project". WABC-TV. ABC. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) Friedman, Roger (April 19, 2007). "Tom Cruise Fires Up Negative Feelings". FOX News. FOX. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

These should be incorporated into the article. Smee 08:21, 22 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

A couple more: New York Post (January 18, 2008) Tom in Ground Zero Tantrum Mirror (January 19, 2008) Tom Cruise in 9/11 'lies' web rant MartinPoulter (talk) 11:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And another one: Boston Globe (January 18, 2008) Tom Cruise's 9/11 clean-up MartinPoulter (talk) 22:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me that all of the useful content of the above has been added now. MartinPoulter (talk) 14:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Merge NY Rescue Workers Detoxification Project[edit]

The New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project stub article is about exactly the same topic, but lacks sources. I suggest that any unique information from that article be merged here and that article be replaced with a redirect. AndroidCat 04:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm presuming that no one has any objections, so I'm moving across bits from the NY Detox article (and expanding/rearranging in general). Once that's done shortly, I'll post when I'm done, wait a few days, then replace the NY Detox article with a REDIR to here. BTW, my preference is for one article, but I don't care which one is the main article and which is the redirect. Any preferences...? AndroidCat 23:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed this. I will note that Downtown Medical (based in NY) is not a non-profit entity (someone correct if I am wrong), while New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project — which is an assumed business name for International Academy of Detoxification Specialists (based in LA), I have a reference for this somewhere — is a non-profit corporation. It might be that Downtown Medical's big client is IADS (364K in 2005), but not sure we can't say they are the same. Raymond Hill 15:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now that everything is in one place, and there's quite a number of new references to incorporate, the exact identities of the players (Downtown vs. NY Rescue Detox vs. International Association of Detoxification Specialists vs. et al) can be straightened out. AndroidCat 15:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John Desio's "Rundown on the purification rundown": "... Downtown Medical’s parent group, the International Academy of Detoxification Specialists ..." (probably from the incorporation documents?). From this reference, we can say they are the same I guess — and therefore merging makes sense. Raymond Hill 15:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest "International Academy of Detoxification Specialists" (IADS) as the main article, since "New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project" is in itself a program from IADS, and Downtown Medical is a subsidiary of some sort (as per John DeSio's article. Raymond Hill 16:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bit that might need merging: It is endorsed by New York City Councilman Hiram Monserrate (D-Queens), who also sponsored a bill to honor Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard. AndroidCat 14:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed renaming[edit]

I previously approved of calling this article Downtown Medical, but it appears that New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project is the name for the project as a whole (including the Long Island operation) whereas "Downtown Medical" is one particular centre, located close to Ground Zero. The longer title is that used in the project's promotion (see web site under external links) and is more descriptive, therefore helpful to someone who doesn't already know what the article is about. I note Raymond Hill's (prior talk) observation that Downtown Medical is incorporated separately, but don't think that matters much to the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Downtown Medical → New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project — As explained on Talk page, "Downtown Medical" is the name of just one clinic, while the article deals with the entire project. MartinPoulter (talk) 12:33, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That needs to be made clear in the lead of the article, but as long as it's the case, support.--Kotniski (talk) 11:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, proposal seems sound and logical. -- Cirt (talk) 10:59, 3 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Thanks, Vegaswikian. MartinPoulter (talk) 09:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with File:Clearbodyclearmind.jpg[edit]

The image File:Clearbodyclearmind.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll err on the safe side and assume it's not allowed in this article (any human users more familiar with these issues want to weigh in?) I'll remove it from the article and seek a free alternative. MartinPoulter (talk) 14:00, 12 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GamerPro64 (talk) 01:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC) The article almost meets GA criteria, but I found some problems in it.[reply]

Dab/EL check- I saw one dab link and two dead links in the article.
The last paragraph in the "Scientific reaction" section needs a reference.

I'm gonna give this article seven days to fix these before I would fail it. GamerPro64 (talk) 01:36, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for flagging up these issues. Busy with my day job at the moment, but will fix them this weekend. MartinPoulter (talk) 11:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All above issues relating to the helpful suggestions by the GA Reviewer now appear to be

Done. ;) Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 16:20, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will now pass the article for Good Article status. Cheers. GamerPro64 (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100604030212/http://www.observer.com/2008/mad-dog-councilman-champions-no-man-s-land to http://www.observer.com/2008/mad-dog-councilman-champions-no-man-s-land
Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C266967%2C00.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:40, 12 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/66b9mR5po?url=http://www.observer.com/2007/monserrate-defends-detox-program to http://www.observer.com/2007/monserrate-defends-detox-program

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:52, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (February 2018)[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070109070250/http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C238238%2C00.html to http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238238,00.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:55, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this place still operating?[edit]

New video:

Tom Cruise's FDNY Friends Defend Danny Masterson. September 22, 2023 – via YouTube.

This video covers backstory of the NY detox project and its connections with Scientology. It ties in with the Danny Masterson 2023 criminal trial, showing 3 letters that had been sent to Masterson's criminal trial judge from personnel of NY Detox project from over 20 years ago. Includes an update on Jim Woodworth.

Is this project still operating in NY in 2023, or is it dead and gone? The wiki article reads like there are still 2 clinics operating in NY. Grorp (talk) 04:26, 23 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]