Talk:New Mexico State University

Evidence for claim of flagship

@Alamo NM: You've added information to this article several times claiming that this university is a "flagship" but you have not provided any sources. The sources I've looked at don't support this claim. Can you please provide some reliable sources that substantiate this claim? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@ElKevbo: Hi Following the multiple methods to designate flagship universities, and lacking any real specific or legal definition, New Mexico has several flagship universities, including UNM as a R1 college, and NMSU as the land grant and oldest institution. Texas adopts a similar system. http://www.diycollegerankings.com/what-is-a-flagship-university/19598/

Also, see the Standard and Poor report http://img.en25.com/Web/StandardandPoors/Flagship%20University%20Jul%2023%2010.pdf

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alamo NM (talk • contribs) 13:34, March 19, 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! Can you please add the Standard & Poor reference to the article so that this is clear for other editors and readers? ElKevbo (talk) 17:54, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That source seems to list a bunch of universities as "flagships" and even entire systems. Although this is a good source to utilize it offers a definition of "flagship" that is not universally accepted. This article also seems to focus on on the credit bonds of universities, not so much as a source of precise flagship university comparisons. Looking at the whole picture (and the consensus of the sources) it is generally more clear that New Mexico State University is not seen as the flagship university, and rather the University of Mexico is. AlaskanNativeRU (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

agreed there is no universally accepted defintion. As such I do not see consensus of sources (reference or unreferenced), and I do not see that is generally more clear as to which sets of universities are, and are not, considered flagship. Alamo NM (talk • contribs) 18:06, March 20, 2019 (UTC)

@Alamo NM: According to the US Department of Education - ERIC, a list recognized by the United States Government in this study here, and College Board, within their survey of flagships published annually here, both of which are primary sources listed on the Category talk:Flagship universities in the United States page, UNM is the only university recognized as a flagship in the state. Also, within the state itself, there aren't any publications or official language that call NMSU a flagship, meanwhile UNM has been consistently considered the flagship university since its inception, as seen in the Acts of the Legislative Assembly of the Territory of New Mexico, 28th session, chapter 138, section 7: “The university of New Mexico hereby created and established, is intended to be the state university when New Mexico shall [be] admitted as a state into the union”. I believe that that's enough to counteract the prior source as it lists, as others have mentioned, universities that are not considered flagships within their states. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtrws (talk • contribs) 16:23, August 17, 2019 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. Department of Education doesn't recognize "flagship" institutions. The department does support ERIC but that's just a repository of education publications that doesn't constitute endorsement of what is in those publications. The quote that you provided doesn't even include the word "flagship" or name this institution so I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion.

As has been stated many times, in most cases the "flagship" designation is informal, unregulated, and provided by many different people with many different definitions, criteria, and motivations. So it's entirely possible that some states have multiple "flagship" institutions or that different lists contradict one another. It appears that reliable sources have been provided for this institution so the more productive argument would be to focus on whether these sources should be included at all.

(Personally, I'd rather us remove all mention of this designation except for the handful of states that have this as a formal designation. It doesn't seem to be helpful for anyone and it just provokes these stupid, time-wasting arguments and edit wars. Moreover, for many institutions this designation is just another way that they trumpet their eliteness and superiority which is obviously not something we should support or document.) ElKevbo (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I agree with ElKevbo and admire their patience. --Melchior2006 (talk) 13:44, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Sexual abuse case

@Alamo NM why did you revert the edit about sexual assault at NM during hazing rituals? Deuce Benjamin was awarded $4.125 million and Shak Odunewu got $3.875 million. The source is given; this is relevant information. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 18:32, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Lawsuits

@Melchior, I would frame the pile of lawsuits as a Title IX/civil rights/discrimination issue, as all of these were brought by women over gender issues. The Kinesiology lawsuit would fit in there because letting a known sexually aggressive faculty member carry for years regardless of all complaints is gender discrimination. The sports team related lawsuits might fit ("they are young men, let them carry on") or not, and then there's that one related to the death of a young man at a party house owned by the former soccer coach. 73.228.28.17 (talk) 18:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

My question would be about whether the new section's content really has a thematic connection or not. It seems like it might devolve into a sort of "Hall of Shame," which would be inappropriate. Also, I am not sure about the connections between the sports-related cases because they are disparate, off-campus, not really related to sport, unless of course the death at the former soccer coach's house can be placed in some relation to football? I'm not sure about that yet. Let me know what you think. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Were the lawsuits successful? Did they have any lasting impact on the university? I ask because we typically shouldn't typically include information about unsuccessful lawsuits or those that had no lasting impact. For one, anyone in the U.S. can file lawsuits for any reason, including completely frivolous reasons and cases without merit. Moreover, even successful lawsuits can have little or no lasting impact on an organization raising questions about WP:DUE. ElKevbo (talk) 13:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The answer would be yes, to both questions: Laura Castile settled for 60 kUSD in her case, a standard amount in a discrimination/unfair dismissal case, but Provost Parker and Professor Osanloo settled for 500 kUSD each. Those two suits must really really have merit because of the way above average payout. Inside Higher Education has a piece quoting the lawyer representing one of the parties: 'Gubernick, an attorney for Castille, told the newspaper, "This is people trying to remove checks and balances. This is like Game of Thrones–type stuff."'

OK, fine - he is a lawyer and trying to make business for himself, but the matter does speak for itself: three successful discrimination lawsuits plus the ongoing Kinesiology sex abuse case in two years bespeaks a dysfunctional work environment with HR asleep at the wheel. NMSU is a large employer, but one does not normally see that sort and that number of cases.

And yes, there have been leadership changes - Provost Shoho was hired to improve the internal climate, but he failed and is now out. Provost Parker was pushed out over highlighting salary discrepancies between men and women, and Castile, then director of the Equity Office was fired over questionable hiring practices by the upper administration. The general feeling, as articulated by the Chronicle of Higher Education and local newsmedia is that there is a management crisis. 73.228.28.17 (talk) 17:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Refrain from rumors and gossip

Every campus has rumors and gossip. No need for this type of vandalism on a wikipedia page. Alamo NM (talk) 20:04, 18 April 2024 (UTC)