Talk:Netball/Archive 5

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Semi-protected edit request on 5 May 2014

There are four places where the claim is made that Netball is an "Olympic recognized sport." For example:

  • The infobox "| olympic = IOC-recognised, 1995<ref name="Taylor-2001"/>"
  • The lead paragraph: "In 1995, netball became an International Olympic Committee recognised sport." (no cites; should be federation)
  • "Netball gained [[Olympic sports#Recognized sports|Olympic recognition]] in 1995 after 20 years of lobbying.<ref name="Taylor-2001"/>"
  • " In 1995, the [[International Olympic Committee]] designated netball as an [[Olympic sport#Recognized sports|Olympic recognised sport]].<ref name="Taylor-2001"/>"

The problem is that the Taylor source does not support this claim. The only sentence in Taylor is "Adding to its enhanced status, and some twenty years after lodging its first application, netball was recognised by the International Olympic Committee allowing national association access to membership of their country's National Olympic Committee in 1993." Taylor was referring to the IFNA becoming an IOC recognized federation. The Wikipedia article "Olympic sports" does not contain a heading "Recognized sports" Rather it contains an accurate section entitled "Recognized international federations" so the wiki-links are a misleading attempt to appear to support incorrect nomenclature. Once a federation is recognized, it must demonstrate a specified level of participation in a number of different nations before the sport is eligible for consideration for inclusion in the Olympics. Netball has not reached that threshold of participation. None of the sources offered support anything beyond netball having an IOC-recognized federation.

One editor went through and added this misstatement four time as if to try to convince us of a false fact by repetition alone. The orginal source for the statement was to a page that no longer exists, and trying to use Taylor as a substitute does not really work. Please change this locked article to reflect the actual facts. 99.89.227.46 (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Declined Netball is an Olympic recognised sport. The IOC allows federations to represent one or more sports, but only one Federation may represent each sport. The IOC did consider Netball eligible for inclusion, but being placed on the program is not automatic. Some seven sports were shortlisted for 2020, including baseball/softball and wrestling, which were formerly part of the program, but only wrestling was selected. [1][2] The IOC keeps referring to "Recognised sports" [3][4]Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
The two references cited above are not definitive. Instead please read Olympic Charter Section 45 and Bylaw to Rule 45. The total number of sports in the Summer Games are limited to 28, with 25 sports being "core sports." Being "recognized" is a characteristic of the Federation, not the sport. For example, the federation must have doping controls. The criteria for selecting sports to be included in the Olympics has changed in recent years, and citing a 2001 source such as Taylor is unfair on this question. Perhaps an editor from Wikiproject Olympics with less emotional involvement than Hawkeye7 should take a look and work through this obvious problem with the article and its sourcing. Many thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.89.227.46 (talk) 04:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
The most obvious problem here has nothing to do with IOC recognition -- the most obvious problem is that a banned Wikipedian is trying to influence content in violation of the ban, rather than simply addressing the substantive issues that led to the ban in the first place. -Pete (talk) 07:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Olympic sports

@Hawkeye7:: Can you quote some exact text in the CFD for Category:Olympic recognised sports that specifies that netball, or any other sport, should be moved to Category:Olympic sports? I can't find any. Graham87 02:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

"while the category name sounds perfectly logical and clear, we already have a category for Category:Olympic sports, of which this is a subcategory — and what's lacking is a clear and explicit criterion to differentiate the two things" The subcateghory is deleted, so the articles ,move into the main category. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
@Bearcat: Did you intend that interpretation of your text when you wrote that nomination statement? We now have the (IMO ridiculous) situation of netball being the only sport directly in Category:Olympic sports, even though it's not a "former or present Olympic sport" (as the inclusion criteria are laid out on the category page). @Hawkeye7:, how come it took you over two weeks from the category's deletion to bring this up on the netball page? Graham87 02:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Netball is an Olympic sport. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
No, it's not; it's never been played at an Olympics. However its governing body has been recognized by the IOC, but that doesn't make it an Olympic sport. Graham87 11:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes it does. Because its governing body has been recognised by the IOC (which recognises only one governing body per sport) , it is de jure an Olympic Sport, and like the other recognised sports, it calls itself an Olympic Sport. It would have been in our Summer sports subcategory if it was actually on the Olympic program. Hawkeye7 (talk) 12:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
For the record, my comment in CFD wasn't meant to suggest that the "recognized" sports should be moved into the main category, or that they shouldn't either — each case has to be evaluated on its own merits. Personally, my belief is that if netball hasn't actually been played at an Olympics, then it shouldn't be categorized as such yet — IMO, the fact that the IOC recognizes netball's governing body isn't a defining characteristic of the sport if the Olympics don't actually include a netball competition yet. But I fully understand that people may have a different view on that, so it's not something I'd be prepared to arbitrarily impose if there were a consensus that categorization as an Olympic sport were warranted. Bearcat (talk) 14:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Bearcat. I've asked for more views on this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Olympics. A similar topic appears to have been discussed there before. I've discovered that we already have Category:IOC-recognised international federations, in which the International Netball Federation is naturally included – I think that's probably enough. Graham87 02:27, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Should not be included in this category. Its not an Olympics sport and likely never will be so no need to put it in the category. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 01:57, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
It is an Olympic sport. See the article for details. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Netball is not an olympic sport. An olympic sport as defined by the IOC, in popular usage and on the Wikipedia page is a sport "contested in the Summer [or] Winter Olympic Games." As Netball is not contested at the Olympics it is not an Olympic sport. Full stop. What is recognized by the IOC is the governing body of netball, known as the "international Federation". Note the key distinction here. The IOC is recognizing the federation, and not individual sports. Whereas only being contested in an Olympic Games makes a sport an "Olympic Sport." If you read Rule 26 of the Olympic Charter, you notice that it specifically refers to IFs as being recognized, not sports. It specifically states that an IF is an "international non-governmental organisations administering one or several sports at world level" and is not recognizing a specific sport. For example, the IOC recognizes FIS, which oversees skiing and snowboarding events in the olympics. However, FIS is also the governing body for sports such as telemark skiing and grass skiing, which are in no way "olympic sports". Thus your argument that simply because the Netball IF is recognized, the sport it administers is de jure an olympic sport is simply not true. Ravendrop 04:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure, the IOC works through IFs. That is true for all the Olympic sports. Hence we get "Netball is a recognised Olympic Sport"[5] By de jure, I mean it gets funding in many countries on the basis that it is an Olympic sport, and participates in governance with the other sports. [6] Looking at the IOC page [7] (drop the "international Federations" menu on the right down), we have "Official Sports" and "Recognised Sports". Note that Baseball/Softball is a "Recognised Sport" now, and Wrestling has recently migrated to an "Official Sport", having been restored to the programme for 2020 and 2024. All the Recognised Sports are theoretically eligible for inclusion on the Olympic Programme - Squash, Netball, Baseball/Softball and Wushu have all made bids for inclusion in recent years. So last time we went through this debate, it was decided to create a category "Olympic Recognised Sports". Hawkeye7 (talk) 06:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the arguments above I don't think it belongs in Category:Olympic sports directly for the simple reason that that category doesn't contain any actual sports articles - they are all contained in the various sub categories. Personally I'm of the opinion that netball itself is not a recognised Olympic sport but that is the controlling federation that is IOC recognised (and yes I've seen and read all the reasoning that has been given from both sides of that argument for years). If anything the netball article could be placed in a relevant subcategory similar to the one which was deleted (Category:Olympic recognised sports) seemingly based on very poor reasoning- Basement12 (T.C) 13:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

As a sport which has never featured on the Olympic programme this category should be excluded as being of little relevance to the subject. This is recognised as an Olympic sport in the same way that sumo and ultimate frisbee is (recognition of sport governing body). More accurately, these are Category:World Games sports, which is the venue that the IOC uses to play the sports that are not on the Olympic programme, but have a recognised governing body. SFB 13:16, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Edit war

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Injuries in Netball

Please add a link to Injuries in netball in the see also section. --211.30.17.74 (talk) 22:17, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:59, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no mention of the FA ban in England on women playing football?

There is no mention of the FA ban in England on women playing football?

Women were discouraged by the FA in England to play football, and were encouraged to play Netball instead.

Can someone expand this section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.32.138 (talk) 08:59, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

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Apps

The info boxes for players say “Apps”. I’m yet to find a Wiki page that defines it. Guess it means Appearances”. Any reason for that word; and not Number or Games or whatever? Can you be rostered to play, but not appear?

Worth defining it in this article? Or a Netball terms page? MBG02 (talk) 20:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

This can be found through wiktionary (apps, plural of app, then given in [app: Eytmology 3]). From the example it's used more generally in sports and not specifically a netball term; Personally, I don't think it needs to be explained here. — Mcstove (talk) 11:53, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Redirects for Positions

I think it could be worthwhile creating redirect pages for netball positions, along the lines of centre (netball) redirecting to Rules of netball#Positions.

This would be in line with e.g. Centre (rugby union), (short of Midfielder or Midfielder#Winger). Such links might be useful when referring to notable players, and could be used in wikidata, such as [centre (rugby union position)].

P.S. I've seen there are indeed redirects for Goal shooter, Goal attack and Wing attack, but not centre (netball), Wing defence, Goal defence or a netball section on Goal keeper (redirect to Goalkeeper).

Mcstove (talk) 13:34, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. Go for it! Graham87 13:55, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2019

The last page edit (08:39, 7 July 2019‎ TheSeagullFan talk contribs‎) is vandalism and I cannot undo/revert this since it's semi-protected. Sabrathan (talk) 12:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done ... thanks for the note. Graham87 14:13, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 July 2019

Change 'Rachel Dunn from Australia' to 'Rachel Dunn from England'

On her page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dunn you can see she is English, not Australian. 86.8.162.75 (talk) 11:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the note. Graham87 15:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Gender vs sex

Why is the section called "gender"? Why not "sex" instead? As far as I understand, gender describes feelings - and where are those here? It's just sex - male, female, trans.--Adûnâi (talk) 06:23, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Sex is a biological construct, gender is sociological construct. Since we are talking about sports, a social activity, gender is the appropriate term here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:31, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Netball Ball

Can someone please add a picture of the actual netball ball?

Thanks, Dwightol102 (talk) 14:08, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Where and when did it start?

There is a lot of confusion on the page about the origins of the sport. At the top it says it "originated" in England and the box says that was in 1890 while the text says "the early 1890s". But following the information from the pages for Clara Baer, Senda Berenson, and Martina Bergman-Österberg, it seems that the game was started from Baer's mistake about the rules of basketball (in New Orleans in 1895) that then got codified into women's basketball through Berenson (in Massachusetts in 1899) and brought to England by Bergman-Österberg first as just basketball, but modified by the newer American women's rules in 1897. The name "net ball" (and later "netball") does seem clearly to come from England, but the game itself was started in the US with Baer's misunderstanding of basketball rules.

I suppose people might disagree about the question of at what point was netball actually "netball" - is it based on the distinctive set of rules or the name? - but the page could be more clear about the series of events that led to the sport's creation and dating the origin to 1890 in England is wrong, according to all the sources. And for what it's worth, a source cited on Bergman-Österberg's Wikipedia page is the All England Netball Association's history of the game, and they say it was invented in the US. 134.41.100.67 (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, and since basketball was invented in 1891, having "1890" is definitely wrong, even if an year/place can't be pinpointed. Vantasner Danger Meridian (talk) 10:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Olympic Charter

The article previously said:

In 1995, netball became an International Olympic Committee recognised sport federation, but it has not been played at the Olympics because the IOC Charter in part requires the sport have more men's teams than women's.

This appears to be both a misunderstanding and out of date. As of 1996, the Olympic Charter, Rule 52, paragraph 1.1.1 said, "... only sports widely practised by men in at least seventy-five countries and on four continents, and by women in at least forty countries and on three continents, may be included in the programme of the Games of the Olympiad ...." (source available here). These are minimums, not a prohibition on sports that are more common among women. If a sport had national federations conducting national championships in 100 countries for women, and in 90 countries for men, it would have been eligible to be included at the Olympics (assuming the continental distributions were satisfied).

In any event, though, there's no similar minimum number of countries (whether for men or women) required for a sport to be included in the Olympics in the current version of the Olympic Charter. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:09, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

But the result is the same nevertheless, so it is not an inaccurate statement, just needs to be worded in a way to eliminate confusion CheckersBoard (talk) 17:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
How can the result be the same? The provision is not even in the Olympic Charter anymore. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
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