Talk:Neartown Houston/Archive 2

Article name

There seems to be dissension regarding the name of this article. Exclusion of "Neartown Houston" from the title ignores the area's history, but exclusion of "Montrose" from the title ignores current convention in both the media and among Houston residents. Perhaps a compromise label of "Neartown Houston/Montrose" will satisfy both camps. 128.42.86.10 18:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not revert this talk page comment. If you do not like the compromise I suggested, that is fine. However, this comment should stay, as it expresses a potentially valid suggestion. I hope we can just agree to disagree. If you revert again, though, I will have to take this to the Wikiquette alert page. Thank you. 128.42.86.24 01:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If you insist to have an article titled Montrose, then go and write a new article. Just make sure whatever you write in that article reflects within the boundary of Montrose proper—which can't be said much. The actual Montrose neighborhood is small. See talk archive of this lengthy discussion. Try not to bring back old issues over and over. I am getting tired of arguing with the same person who does not want to sign in with multiple IP addresses. Quit being a coward by signing in when you discuss about this topic and stop creating sockpuppets/multiple IPs. I know that you and other IPs that have been trolling this talk page are all one person. Your writing style and tone are not hard to guess who you really are. —RJN 01:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for being reasonable and not reverting. I am neither a sockpuppet nor a coward. Before you accuse me of such, you should present your credentials in forensic graphology to support your claim. I do not care whether or not you add a "Montrose" section. I just wanted my comment to be left as is, and now that you are no longer violating Wikiquette, I am content. 128.42.86.23 03:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Montrose is a "neighborhood" that is located within Neartown, an "area" which contains more than one neighborhood. If we were to talk about Montrose (the neighborhood) technically, almost all of the materials in this article would need to be deleted. The actual Montrose is very small and there is really nothing to talk about. Most of the materials in this article is about the surrounding area, which falls under Neartown. I'll create a section within this article exclusively for Montrose. —RJN 01:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Many "neighborhoods" thought to be Montrose include Westmoreland, Avondale, Mandell Place, Winlow Place, Courtlandt Place, Hyde Park, and Cherryhurst. The materials in this article represent these neighborhoods—not just Montrose—and therefore must be appropriately named Neartown. In summary, Neartown is not just Montrose and vice versa—it is an area with a collection of many neighborhoods that are all thought to be Montrose. —RJN 01:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This article talks about a defined area (Neartown)—not a neighborhood (Montrose). —RJN 01:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused by this name. Where did the term 'Neartown' come from? I never heard of it until it started appearing in real estate ads in the late 1990s with the redevelopment of Freedman's Town. Montrose is the colloquial term for the entire area between Upper Kirby/River Oaks/Midtown and US 59. This is how the news media refers to the area, this is how the Greater Houston Convention and Visitors Bureau refers to the area, and this is how travel publishers refer to the area (from Lonely Planet to Rough Guide to Let's Go). Not to mention people who live in Houston. I've never said, or heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Neartown today.' Or 'Where's that store at?' 'Neartown.' Lawr0583 15:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

To add some verified historical context to the naming convention. The Montose Place Addition was built by John Link's Houston Land Company in 1909. The subdivision encompassed 165 acres divided into more than 1000 lots (Source: Texas Historical Commission NRHP Narrative for Link-Lee House). By comparison, the adjacent subdivision of Westmoreland Place was 44 acres (Source: Texas Historical Commission NRHP Narrative for Westmoreland Place); the adjacent subdivision of Courtlandt Place was 15 acres (Source: Texas Historical Commission NRHP Narrative for Courtlandt Place). Eventually the entire area became colloquially known as 'Montrose' because the Montrose Place Addition was so much larger than the adjacent neighborhoods. The very same thing happened in the area known as 'River Oaks.' River Oaks was the largest subdivision, but the area now defined as River Oaks includes the smaller subdivisions of Afton Oaks and Royden Oaks. What is the historical basis for Neartown? Lawr0583 02:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the Neartown Association website, Montrose is a neighborhood located within the Neartown area: "Preserving a rich residential history, Neartown includes some of Houston's oldest and most historic neighborhoods, including the original Montrose, which was platted in 1911. Other neighborhoods in the area have retained their original names such as Courtlandt Place, Winlow Place, Hyde Park and Cherryhurst. In other parts of Neartown, old subdivision names such as Oakmont and Sandyside have long since lost their significance except as part of legal descriptions on property deeds. In their place, new neighborhood organizations have arisen with names reflective of the area's history, such as Audubon, Avondale, Lancaster Place, Castle Court and Roseland Estates.". Postoak 04:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Here's some contemporary sources. According to the New York Times, "The four-square-mile neighborhood, whose general boundaries are Highway 59 on the south, Allen Parkway to the north, Bagby Street on the east and Shepherd Drive on the west..." March 24, 2002. The Houston Chronicle, "Buffalo Bayou forms the northern boundary of the Montrose area...The Montrose district, bordered also by Highway 59 (south) and Shepherd (west), brushes against a modern downtown (east)..." And a bill before the State Legislature for the Montrose Museum CIP puts the boundaries of Montrose roughly from Montrose to Allen Parkway to downtown to Bissonet.Lawr0583 21:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Folks - it looks like "Neartown/Montrose" is the officially recognized Super Neighborhood name for the area, so the article should be named accordingly. This would also come close to resolving the naming differences expressed here. Wikipedia offers some naming conventions too that point more towards the colloquial (Montrose) rather than the sometimes more correct but specialist point of view (Neartown) - Generally, article naming should prefer to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. This is justified by the following principle: Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.[1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Emailulike (talk • contribs) 04:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Plagiarism

Material in this entry uses language identical to some in a New York Times story, 'In Montrose, Houston First Went Boom', by Kathryn Jones on March 24, 2002. This link requires registration:

http://travel2.nytimes.com/2002/03/24/travel/MONT.html

In particular, much of the story's third paragraph has been copied into this entry verbatim. Since this entry doesn't appear to have even existed in 2002, I have to assume the NY Times story is the original material. I also assume it's too much to ask for the original author to revise or cite.

I bring it up because while citations would be helpful throughout this entry, this seems to be more of a matter of theft.

I'm not sure what should be done. I'd like to avoid useless pedantic altercations.

Thornrag 16:40, 26 August 2006 (UTC)