Talk:Moshe Chaim Ephraim of Sudilkov

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Untitled[edit]

Created page.--Klezmer 17:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Style of this article[edit]

Sudilkov and Indon, you need to tone down your editing style. It has to follow similar content and style to other bios of Chasidic leaders, such as R. Boruch, Baal Shem Tov, etc. So you aren't always free to delete sections that you don't like, such as the Rabbi Infobox, references. Also, we need to follow the naming conventions used elsewhere, whether we agree with the spellings or not. Otherwise, we won't be able to cross-reference the names. I believe it was decided that when in doubt, we are using the Library of Congress transliteration scheme for the spellings, when the names were in other languages other than English.

I'm reverting a lot of your edits simply to match and x-ref properly the other other articles. Please don't take it personally. Your minimalistic approach to the wording of the article is not too helpful to newbies, especially when additional facts are deleted that tie to other individuals. Some of these x-refs are valuable, such as who his teachers were and his brother (who he was in conflict with). But unless you can prove the interaction, I don't believe mentioning R. Nachman of Bratslav has anything to do with this article.

Regarding references, you need to only add those that specifically support some fact and is verifiable. Otherwise, it shouldn't be there. See WP:V. However, it's a Wiki no-no not to have any references at all. Otherwise, the article might get deleted.--Klezmer 15:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What is your source of information for this sentence?:

After the Baal Shem Tov's death in 1760, he was taken in by R. Abraham Gershon of Kitov, the brother-in-law of the Baal Shem Tov.

Rabinowicz. I have some trouble with the timing of this, but that's what he says. Seems to me that Gershon was in Jerusalem at the time since he died there just a few months later, but I can't verify this. So I have to take Rabinowicz' word for it. (please sign your posts) --Klezmer 16:56, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have found that Rabinowicz is not always completely reliable. In his entry for the Degel, he mentions that he learned from Rebbe Menachem Mendel of Vitesbk, and this was not the case.

Please folllow the link on the timeline reference and send me an e-mail so we can correspond more. Thanks :)

- Sudilkov

Wiki doesn't care whether the source is reliable or not. That's not up to us to judge. It only has to be verifiable. See WP:V "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Rabinowicz is a verifiable source, and that's what he says. I didn't make up the rule and I don't like it, but we have to live by it. If you can find a verifiable source that says otherwise, that would be great.--Klezmer 20:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Klezmer: Have you ever learned the sefer Degel Machaneh Ephraim? I learn it every single day and there is only one reference to Rebbe Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk in it - and this is where the Degel says that he saw him in a dream.

The Degel often quotes the Baal Shem Tov, the Maggid of Mezeritch, and the Toldos Yaakov Yosef since these were his main teachers. The sefer "Chassidus L'Dor L'Dor" from Alfasi notes this as well and does not say a thing about Rebbe Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk.

Abraham Heschel's book "The Circle of the Baal Shem Tov: Studies in Hasidism" notes that R' Gershon of Kitov had already left and resided in Eretz Yisrael at the time when the Baal Shem Tov passed away so the entry in Rabinowicz is incorrect.

I also deleted your sentence, "Whereas his brother was bombastic who flaunted his position" since expresses opinion and is not backed up with sources. You also mention that the Degel was in conflict with his brother. What is your proof of this?