Talk:Moors murders/Archive 4
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Potential errors in the article
For the sake of convenience I've copied to here the errors identified in this article by Carol Ann Lee, author of the recent book One of Your Own: The Life and Death of Myra Hindley (see higher up this page).
- Pauline Reade didn’t disappear on her way to a dance in Crumpsall. She was going to the British Railways Social Club in Cornwall Street, Gorton.
The ruse to get John Kilbride into their car - and it was both Brady and Hindley who made the approach, not Hindley alone - was not to carry some boxes. They offered him a lift home, saying that he was out too late for such a young boy, and they promised him sherry as a treat, then again used the tale of the lost glove to explain their detour to the moor.
Keith Bennett’s grandmother did not live in Gorton, but on Morton Street in Longsight, a few streets from Brady’s own home.
- It isn’t known for certain how Lesley Ann Downey was murdered; Brady claimed Hindley had committed the crime with a silk cord but the forensic tests proved inconclusive, though did not rule out suffocation.
- I am sick of saying this one, but the ‘motive’ of ‘rolling a queer’ in relation to Edward Evans’ death was an invention on Brady’s part only after he was arrested. There was never any discussion of such a thing between Brady and David Smith; Hindley simply wanted, even many years later, to blacken David Smith’s name as much as possible. She knew she couldn't do it at all with the previous murders but clearly had no intention of letting this chance go by, even then.
- On the night of 6 October, Hindley was not in the kitchen ‘feeding her dogs’ but awaiting a signal from Brady to bring David Smith into the room to witness the murder of Edward Evans.
- It is complete nonsense that ‘Maureen told David to go to the police.’ There was never, ever any question of his needing to be told by anyone what the right thing was to do.
- David Smith did not know what had happened to the suitcases or what was in them; it was only during a long question and answer session with policemen Alex Carr and Ian Fairley in a car outside Underwood Court that he remembered taking some books round to Brady and Hindley’s home - these were then put in a suitcase and together with another suitcase, taken to Hindley’s car. David Smith had no idea at the time where the suitcases were being taken, but during his conversation with Carr and Fairley, he mentioned that Brady was keen on loitering about railway stations and Alex Carr realised that it might be as well to start looking for the cases there.
- There is, as usual, confusion over the dates here: the suitcases were discovered on the evening of 15 October 1965, but the left luggage ticket was not found until 20 October. In the courtroom the dates were fudged to make it easier for the jury to follow.
At the trial in 1966, David Smith DID name the newspaper with whom his father and uncle had arranged a deal. He was reluctant to do so at first, but when his lawyer spoke to him and warned that he could be found in contempt of court if he continued to say nothing, he promptly answered the judge’s question about the identity of the newspaper.
- About their backgrounds: until Brady embarked on the murders with Hindley there is absolutely no evidence that he injured small children.
- I'm a bit stumped with this one as I've never read the book it's attributed to, but this and him being cruel to animals does smell a bit like after the fact demonisation to me. I seem to remember as well that Topping commented on how emotionally attached Brady was to animals. Thoughts anyone? Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- The book is available on t'internet, here. I don't recall Ritchie mentioning anything about this, so perhaps its best left as a footnote? Parrot of Doom 21:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'd vote for removing it unless there's anyone else claiming that Brady injured small children when he was younger. Malleus Fatuorum 21:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- The book is available on t'internet, here. I don't recall Ritchie mentioning anything about this, so perhaps its best left as a footnote? Parrot of Doom 21:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a bit stumped with this one as I've never read the book it's attributed to, but this and him being cruel to animals does smell a bit like after the fact demonisation to me. I seem to remember as well that Topping commented on how emotionally attached Brady was to animals. Thoughts anyone? Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Hindley’s mother and father did not beat her regularly as a small child; she was occasionally smacked and had her ‘ears boxed’ but the tales of such brutality have almost certainly been exaggerated to please prison psychiatrists. As to the Hindley home being in such poor condition - ridiculous, it was in no worse condition than any other in the neighbourhood and the arrangement for Hindley to live with her grandmother was a practical one quite common at that time.
- Brady and Hindley’s first date at the cinema was not to see Judgement at Nuremburg - they saw that on their second outing. Their first date was to see Nicholas Ray’s King of Kings, a religious epic.
- Brady claims it was the film, rather than the book 'Compulsion' which interested him.
Your claim that David Smith fell under suspicion for the murder of Pauline Reade is extremely libellous; he was questioned only along with all other members of the community, not and never as a suspect. I’d be grateful if you would remove that line.
- There was no mention of robbery during the visit to the Lake District; Brady and David Smith had only just become acquainted, remember.
- This one I don't agree with. What the article says is "The two talked about society, the distribution of wealth, and the possibility of robbing a bank." I've often discussed the possibility of robbing a bank, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm planning to rob one ... although ... Malleus Fatuorum 17:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Maureen Smith did not ask for her children to be taken into care; they were removed from her. They were severely underweight and riddled with lice. After gaining them back, she subsequently abandoned them on the steps of Manchester Town Hall. There was some further contact for a while, but she soon stopped visiting and they were brought up in the love and care of their father, David Smith, and his second wife Mary to whom they remain exceptionally close.- For that level of personal detail it's best to consult the sources. One might argue that abandoning them on the steps of Manchester Town Hall is asking for them to be taken into care. In any event, I've changed the article to say simply "That same year his children were taken into the care of the local authority". Malleus Fatuorum 21:00, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
David Smith did not move to Lincoln to rebuild his life because of the abuse but entirely due to difficulties - common to many of the population at that time - with employment.
When Maureen died she was Maureen Scott, not Smith.
Given that there's widespread disagreement about some of the details of these murders I think we need to be a little careful how we address these points, but I've now got hold of a copy of Lee's book and I'll make a start. Malleus Fatuorum 17:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- As ever your due diligence is strongly appreciated. Pedro : Chat 20:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. As Carol said, and we all know anyway, we ought to try and get it as right as we can. I've only had the book for a few hours, so I've only just made a start on it, but it seems to be a pretty impressive piece of work. It's a rather large paperback (463 pages), very well referenced, and I can easily see it becoming considered as the standard work on the Moors murders, so your forum posting was a win for everybody hopefully. Who says wikipedia doesn't need input from experts? Malleus Fatuorum 20:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
In Popular Culture
Manchester based band The Smiths wrote about the incidents of the Moors Murders in the single "Suffer Little Children" on their debut album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shelbylamar (talk • contribs) 12:59, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- See WP:TRIVIA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:01, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- This comes up from time to time as you'll see if you look through the talk page archives. It even came up in this article's FAC, in which we tried to explain why we believe that a pop. culture entry would be inappropriate. My general view of trivia is that it's only worth mentioning if it throws light on the subject of the article. It may, for instance, be reasonable to include a link to this article when discussing The Smiths "Suffer Little Children", but the question is what does that song tell us about these murders? Malleus Fatuorum 13:18, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- A relevant test would be whether this fact is covered by reliable sources in the context of music/Smiths or whether it appears in the context of crime/Moors Murders. Here is an example of the latter context. In this case, the source goes on to discuss other artistic references to the murders and this type of analysis seems appropriate here. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- My view on musical popular culture references is that singles can't possibly have the depth of coverage required for a reference to be significant. A concept album dedicated to the topic would, IMO, cross the threshold into a notable reference. Yworo (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- Kevin Coyne's Babble was a concept album inspired by these murders but it seems to have far less coverage than the Morrissey single/track which attracted much attention because it was banned in some places. Yworo's theory doesn't stand up. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- WP:TRIVIA doesn't base inclusion on the coverage by reliable sources that the related media got; it bases it on the depth to which the media itself covers the subject. We don't list passing mentions or superficial coverage. As Malleus puts it "it's only worth mentioning if it throws light on the subject of the article". Yworo (talk) 19:41, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- WP:TRIVIA is quite irrelevant as that is concerned with miscellenia - unrelated factoids put together in a jumble. What we are talking about here is some discussion of artistic coverage of the murders, as discussed at length in sources such as the example provided above. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- "In pop culture" sections are frequently considered to be one of a number of types of "factoids put together in a jumble". However, you are right, there is a more pertinent page, Wikipedia:"In_popular_culture"_content which, while it suggests the media with discussion in secondary sources is acceptable, also states "In determining whether a reference is notable enough for inclusion, one helpful test can be to look at whether a person who is familiar with the topic only through the reference in question has the potential to learn something meaningful about the topic from that work alone. " Yworo (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- What we are talking about is adding value to the article. Example: Whilst it clearly adds value to the article on The Smiths that one of their singles was inspired by these events, I think we need to be more robust in considering backwards linking. I'm not saying we shouldn't do it - I can also see some value in it - but the primary focus here is the events and their aftermath. Some grim bulleted "in popular culture" list is clearly not helpful. A section on "cultural impact" might be altogether be better however. Pedro : Chat 19:52, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- "In pop culture" sections are frequently considered to be one of a number of types of "factoids put together in a jumble". However, you are right, there is a more pertinent page, Wikipedia:"In_popular_culture"_content which, while it suggests the media with discussion in secondary sources is acceptable, also states "In determining whether a reference is notable enough for inclusion, one helpful test can be to look at whether a person who is familiar with the topic only through the reference in question has the potential to learn something meaningful about the topic from that work alone. " Yworo (talk) 19:50, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
- WP:TRIVIA is quite irrelevant as that is concerned with miscellenia - unrelated factoids put together in a jumble. What we are talking about here is some discussion of artistic coverage of the murders, as discussed at length in sources such as the example provided above. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Just in case you all did not know, Throbbing Gristle did a 15 minute song detailing the murders. It is called very friendly.--Mutlee (talk) 02:51, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
interwiki links
Caused by the merging of Moors murders with Ian Brady, there are some wrong interwiki links I cannot remove because of the page protection here :Spanish(Ian Brady); German(Ian Brady); Turkish(Pauline Reade). All links in all wikis have to be removed, except those between the pages not listed here(including this article) and except those between the spanish and german versions. Any single wrong link causes the bots to do something wrong.--Der wahre Sensenmann (talk) 13:29, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes,but we have to remove the other links.--Der wahre Sensenmann (talk) 13:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- done.--Der wahre Sensenmann (talk) 13:43, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you.--Der wahre Sensenmann (talk) 13:52, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
new official keith bennett website
An article was published in the daily mail and the people newspaper stating from Winnie Johnson herself (Mother of Keith Bennett) that they have a new website to start a new search for the body of Keith. This is being run by relatives of Keith and Winnie and is now considered to be the Official site.
Newspaper article can be seen here [1]
The new website is [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moonhippy3 (talk • contribs) 08:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think that's fair enough then, the existing "official website" contains a post in the forum which raises exactly this point, and which suggests that the "new" website should be considered "official". Parrot of Doom 09:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Slight problem with the citations
There are two citations to Topping|2007 - I think these are probably intended to be Topping|1989, but they might be Staff|2007. Also, citation 105 (2007, p. 36) lacks the author's name. I don't have any of these books so can't clarify. Parrot of Doom 08:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Suffer Little Children
Is it not worth mentioning the Smiths song entitled "Suffer Little Children" that clearly references these murders? (It mentions Lesley-Anne, John, Edward, and Hindley by name) 135.196.127.90 (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's certainly worth mentioning in the song's article, but what light does it shed on this one? Malleus Fatuorum 02:11, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Potential errors in the article
For the sake of convenience I've copied to here the errors identified in this article by Carol Ann Lee, author of the recent book One of Your Own: The Life and Death of Myra Hindley (see higher up this page).
Pauline Reade didn’t disappear on her way to a dance in Crumpsall. She was going to the British Railways Social Club in Cornwall Street, Gorton.
The ruse to get John Kilbride into their car - and it was both Brady and Hindley who made the approach, not Hindley alone - was not to carry some boxes. They offered him a lift home, saying that he was out too late for such a young boy, and they promised him sherry as a treat, then again used the tale of the lost glove to explain their detour to the moor.
Keith Bennett’s grandmother did not live in Gorton, but on Morton Street in Longsight, a few streets from Brady’s own home.
It isn’t known for certain how Lesley Ann Downey was murdered; Brady claimed Hindley had committed the crime with a silk cord but the forensic tests proved inconclusive, though did not rule out suffocation.
I am sick of saying this one, but the ‘motive’ of ‘rolling a queer’ in relation to Edward Evans’ death was an invention on Brady’s part only after he was arrested. There was never any discussion of such a thing between Brady and David Smith; Hindley simply wanted, even many years later, to blacken David Smith’s name as much as possible. She knew she couldn't do it at all with the previous murders but clearly had no intention of letting this chance go by, even then.
On the night of 6 October, Hindley was not in the kitchen ‘feeding her dogs’ but awaiting a signal from Brady to bring David Smith into the room to witness the murder of Edward Evans.
It is complete nonsense that ‘Maureen told David to go to the police.’ There was never, ever any question of his needing to be told by anyone what the right thing was to do.
David Smith did not know what had happened to the suitcases or what was in them; it was only during a long question and answer session with policemen Alex Carr and Ian Fairley in a car outside Underwood Court that he remembered taking some books round to Brady and Hindley’s home - these were then put in a suitcase and together with another suitcase, taken to Hindley’s car. David Smith had no idea at the time where the suitcases were being taken, but during his conversation with Carr and Fairley, he mentioned that Brady was keen on loitering about railway stations and Alex Carr realised that it might be as well to start looking for the cases there.
There is, as usual, confusion over the dates here: the suitcases were discovered on the evening of 15 October 1965, but the left luggage ticket was not found until 20 October. In the courtroom the dates were fudged to make it easier for the jury to follow.
At the trial in 1966, David Smith DID name the newspaper with whom his father and uncle had arranged a deal. He was reluctant to do so at first, but when his lawyer spoke to him and warned that he could be found in contempt of court if he continued to say nothing, he promptly answered the judge’s question about the identity of the newspaper.
- About their backgrounds: until Brady embarked on the murders with Hindley there is absolutely no evidence that he injured small children.
- I'm a bit stumped with this one as I've never read the book it's attributed to, but this and him being cruel to animals does smell a bit like after the fact demonisation to me. I seem to remember as well that Topping commented on how emotionally attached Brady was to animals. Thoughts anyone? Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- The book is available on t'internet, here. I don't recall Ritchie mentioning anything about this, so perhaps its best left as a footnote? Parrot of Doom 21:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'd vote for removing it unless there's anyone else claiming that Brady injured small children when he was younger. Malleus Fatuorum 21:25, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- The book is available on t'internet, here. I don't recall Ritchie mentioning anything about this, so perhaps its best left as a footnote? Parrot of Doom 21:16, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a bit stumped with this one as I've never read the book it's attributed to, but this and him being cruel to animals does smell a bit like after the fact demonisation to me. I seem to remember as well that Topping commented on how emotionally attached Brady was to animals. Thoughts anyone? Malleus Fatuorum 21:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Hindley’s mother and father did not beat her regularly as a small child; she was occasionally smacked and had her ‘ears boxed’ but the tales of such brutality have almost certainly been exaggerated to please prison psychiatrists. As to the Hindley home being in such poor condition - ridiculous, it was in no worse condition than any other in the neighbourhood and the arrangement for Hindley to live with her grandmother was a practical one quite common at that time.
Brady and Hindley’s first date at the cinema was not to see Judgement at Nuremburg - they saw that on their second outing. Their first date was to see Nicholas Ray’s King of Kings, a religious epic.
Brady claims it was the film, rather than the book 'Compulsion' which interested him.
Your claim that David Smith fell under suspicion for the murder of Pauline Reade is extremely libellous; he was questioned only along with all other members of the community, not and never as a suspect. I’d be grateful if you would remove that line.
There was no mention of robbery during the visit to the Lake District; Brady and David Smith had only just become acquainted, remember.- This one I don't agree with. What the article says is "The two talked about society, the distribution of wealth, and the possibility of robbing a bank." I've often discussed the possibility of robbing a bank, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm planning to rob one ... although ... Malleus Fatuorum 17:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Maureen Smith did not ask for her children to be taken into care; they were removed from her. They were severely underweight and riddled with lice. After gaining them back, she subsequently abandoned them on the steps of Manchester Town Hall. There was some further contact for a while, but she soon stopped visiting and they were brought up in the love and care of their father, David Smith, and his second wife Mary to whom they remain exceptionally close.- For that level of personal detail it's best to consult the sources. One might argue that abandoning them on the steps of Manchester Town Hall is asking for them to be taken into care. In any event, I've changed the article to say simply "That same year his children were taken into the care of the local authority". Malleus Fatuorum 21:00, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
David Smith did not move to Lincoln to rebuild his life because of the abuse but entirely due to difficulties - common to many of the population at that time - with employment.
When Maureen died she was Maureen Scott, not Smith.
Given that there's widespread disagreement about some of the details of these murders I think we need to be a little careful how we address these points, but I've now got hold of a copy of Lee's book and I'll make a start. Malleus Fatuorum 17:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- As ever your due diligence is strongly appreciated. Pedro : Chat 20:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. As Carol said, and we all know anyway, we ought to try and get it as right as we can. I've only had the book for a few hours, so I've only just made a start on it, but it seems to be a pretty impressive piece of work. It's a rather large paperback (463 pages), very well referenced, and I can easily see it becoming considered as the standard work on the Moors murders, so your forum posting was a win for everybody hopefully. Who says wikipedia doesn't need input from experts? Malleus Fatuorum 20:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)