Talk:Mnemonic verses of monarchs in England

An IP added: An alternative and shorter verse:

Billy, Billy, Harry, Tilda, Steve,

Harry, Dickie, Johnny, Harry Three;

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie, Dickie Bor’,

Harry, Harry, Harry, Eddie Four;

Harry, Eddie, Eddie, Dickie Lame,

Harry, Harry, Eddie, Lady Jane;

Mary, Betty, Jimmy, Charlie, Ol,

Dickie, Charlie, Jimmy, Bill and Moll;

Annie then the Georges One to Four,

Billy, Vicky, Eddie, George once more.

This includes Cromwell's Commonwealth.

I've never seen it before, and therefore have no idea as to origin, copyright status etc. Anyone want to find a citation? –EdC 21:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I made up my own two verses to explain Lady Jane Grey, that fit after 'Harrys twain and Ned the Lad':

Then there was a Lady Grey

She was queenie for a day

Lame, possibly, but it helped me remember where she fit in.

Also, I learned the last six verses as:

Edward, George, and Ned the Eighth

Quickly goes and abdica'th

Then comes George and Liz the Second

And with Charlie next, it's reckoned.

And that's the way the monarchs lie

Since Harold got it in the eye!

-Jeff Billard (talk) 05:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Another royal mnemonic

One seven six oh yards in a mile
Good king George took the throne with a smile.

This gives you both that there are 1,760 yards in a mile, and that George III became king in 1760. Jhobson1 (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Prince Charles won't be King Charles

Contrary to one of the newer versions of the mnemonic, he's indicated his preference to be King George VII in honour of his grandfather. Also, he said he didn't want to sound like a dog. Regnal names are often different from actual first names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.51.14.103 (talk) 14:19, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

This is incorrect. He is now known as King Charles III. EmilySarah99 (talk) 02:50, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

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Sourcing and alternative versions

This article is inadequately sourced. I have added a good source for the use in Forty Years On. Few of the other sources is up to Wikipedia's Reliable sources requirements, and much of the material is totally unsourced.

• "Monarch of Britain". Brittannia. Archived from the original on 18 Jan 2019.
  • britannia.com was a an independent American website with articles about British travel and history.[1]. I think it is marginally acceptable as a source.
• Pauk, Walter; Owens, Ross J. Q. (2013). How to Study in College. Cengage. p. 246. ISBN 9781285632889.
  • This is an acceptable source for the Royal Houses mnemonic
• "Horrible Histories- Rulers Song". 22 June 2011. Archived from the original on 3 July 2012 – via YouTube.
  • This is a YouTube page. The video itself is not available at archive.org, but it was presumably a clip from one of the Horrible Histories TV programmes. The lyrics are transcribed in the YouTube notes. Both the video and the transcribed lyrics on this page are copyright violations that should not be linked to, per WP:ELNEVER. We should not give the extended quote of copyrighted material, per MOS:QUOTATIONS.
• "All The Kings & Queens of England". 1 July 2014 – via YouTube.
  • This appears to be a self-made video of a writer reciting his own work. It is ok as a source, but the author does not appear to be sufficiently noteworthy for this to be mentioned (there is no Wikipedia article on him).

Our only sources for the mnemonics for the monarchs are britannia.com and Forty Years On. While it is probable that there are several established variants, we have no way of knowing whether the alternative versions presented here were simply made up by the editors who added them, or (more charitably) whether they are poorly-remembered versions of what they heard in school or from their friends and relatives.

I propose that we only the give two versions for which we have sources, and delete all the other versions. The two versions we would give are slightly different, and giving both highlights that there may be other versions.

Other issues

• (Can be sung to the tune of "Good King Wenceslas".)
  • Unsourced, moreover the words only match the the 13.13.13.14 metre of this tune as far as 'Anna Gloria'. Delete this.

• Mnemonics detailing the Royal Houses of England and Great Britain
  • Only give the sourced version. The detailed discussion of royal houses should be relegated to a footnote, and deleted if it is off-topic or dubious.

• Mnemonic used in Horrible Histories
  • Delete as a copyright violation. Add a paragraph mentioning related mnemonics, including this one.

• All the Kings and Queens of England
  • Delete as insufficiently noteworthy

I will wait for comments before making these changes. Verbcatcher (talk) 01:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I have changed the article along the lines that I proposed. I did not quote the version in Forty Years On as it might his copyright. For example, he interpolates 'Then who' between Henry VI and Henry VII. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

The rhyme that begins "First William the Norman, Then William his son", goes back to at least March 1838, appearing in "Original Poetry" in the Evangelical Register at p 110. It appears, in various forms, in other books over a period of more than a century. James500 (talk) 00:42, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

As I was taught, slightly diferring from the one on this page with a TRUER rhyme for James I&VI and snappier (easier to learn) ending (edits to page version in capitals) ...Mary, Bessie, James THE VAIN, Then Charlie, Charlie, James again... Will. and Mary, Anna Gloria, GEORGES FOUR, WILL, VICTORIA; EDWARD, GEORGE AND EDWARD EIGHT, GEORGE, NOW BESS IS HEAD OF STATE. Dainamo (talk) 10:20, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I always learned it as:

...Mary, Lizzie, James the Vain,

Charlie, Charlie, James again

William and Mary, Ann o' Gloria,

Four Georges, William and Victoria

Edward Seven, Georgie Five,

Edward, George and Liz (alive)

I feel that this version scans the best out of any as the rest have some very jarring moments that make it flow quite poorly. Though of course, the final line of this version is now somewhat factually inaccurate. 194.74.187.27 (talk) 10:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Categories

There is discussion of "Cultural depictions" categories at User talk:Dimadick#Cultural depictions ... and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories#What constitutes a "Cultural representation"?. PamD 17:03, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

A Rough Guide to the Royal Succession

@Sheila1988: I will remove the 'Anglo-Saxon kings' section, because the verse is a clear copyright violation. The text is attributed to Paul Drayton (born 1944).[2][3][4] Moreover, the cited source is an unacceptable self-published source. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:36, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I finally found a legitimate site with the full lyrics of "A Rough Guide to the Royal Succession (It's just one damn King after another…)" ... and it is in no way a mnemonic verse, just a (rather splendid) long verse listing all the kings and queens from Cerdic and Ceolwulf to QE2. So it's irrelevant to this article, though an entertaining read. So I don't know where the short lines about the Anglo-Saxon kings, quoted in the now-deleted section, came from, but it wasn't from that verse as show in the CD booklet for the Kings Singers recording! PamD 19:13, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@PamD: well found, the King's Singers' song is totally different from the 'Ethels -wulf, -bald, -bert and -red' version. However, both lyrics look modern and are probably under copyright. We could mention 'A Rough Guide to the Royal Succession' in the 'Published versions' paragraph (without an extended quotation), but I think it is too remote from our topic. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:44, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I've tweaked the article to include "other" verses, as neither the Horrible Histories song nor the King's Singers one is a variant of the main thing, nor a mnemonic, but just an annotated listing of the monarchs! Having tracked down the Drayton lyrics it seemed a pity not to link to them. PamD 20:07, 11 February 2024 (UTC)