Talk:Merry Christmas (Mariah Carey album)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

guideline

Can we propose some new guidelines for Xmas albums? I know the album is mostly covers, but its not really an album of covers or a tribute album in the traditional sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OmegaWikipedia (talk • contribs) 22:50, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

There should be a colour for holiday/seasonal albums. A lot of summer and party albums could also fit under this colour: it wouldnt be just Christmas. Ultimate Star Wars Freak 09:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, well I just changed the color. There is no color code for holiday/seasonal albums, so I guess this is the first. Unless anyone has any serious objections with this color....... OmegaWikipedia 12:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

DualDisc cover

I've removed the DualDisc album cover again; it's almost exactly the same as the original, so I doubt it qualifies as "fair use". Extraordinary Machine 20:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Some of the coding seems to have gone haywire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.102.186.107 (talk) 01:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

sales

it is not the best selling xmas album ever - that is up to debate. based on certifications it should at the very most be around 10 million worldwide. the 16.5 million figure is from a fansite with no basis. it is definitely one of the best selling but not THE best selling. one thing for sure it is only the 3rd best selling xmas album by a solo artist in the US. worldwide is another matter but even then it is up to debate Thisstepthisstepp (talk) 16:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Studio Album

Why would this album be considered her fourth album?? It is a holiday album ! I believe for the most part studio albums do not include Christmas songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.141.15 (talk) 23:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The best selling Christmas album of all time or one of the best selling Christmas albums of all time

Petergriffin9901 added information to the Merry Christmas (Mariah Carey album) that it is the most successful Christmas album of all time using this source [1]. When I asked what does it mean "most successful", he has found another source saying that Merry Christmas is the best-selling Christmas albums of all time [2]. I would like to start a discussion here if those kind of statements can be used in the article. Or should it be one of the best-selling Christmas albums of all time?

1. The source from November 2009 - Carey's official website says: ""All I Want For Christmas is You" was the leading single from Mariah's 1994 Merry Christmas album, selling 11 million copies worldwide on it's way to becoming one of the best selling Christmas album of all time!"[3]
2. As Billboard is saying, Elvis Presley has sold 12 million copies of his album in the U.S. alone.[4].
3. In the U.S., Merry Christmas is #8 on the list of best selling Christmas albums overall.[5]
4. On the SoundScan list of best selling Christmas it is #3.[6].Max24(talk) 20:55, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm completely against making statements like that for any artist. I think for everything we should say "one of" saying "it is" is a bold statement and can never be proved. Jayy008 (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

If your insistant on using the sources, I would strictly say the follow: "The album has received media coverage regarding its success. Fox News reported that Merry Christmas was the most successful Christmas album of all time[1] and The Independent said it was the best-selling Christmas album of all time.[2]" --Lil-unique1 (talk) 22:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I also think it should not be said...with that said i am willing to say something - but i was under the impression that Officially its Elvis at 9x platinum , but see that most in the music industry say its Bing Crosby's - Merry Christmas ..believed to be at around 15 times platinum (Y believed no way of tracing record sales before 1961 and from 1977 to 1988 there a many untraceable sales as copy right was at issue for the time period and is believe to have been copied/reproduced without consent or tracking done). So again since all is not kosher with this kind of stats we should simply say ...one on the top selling in modern times. You will note the Elvis article does not mention this at all.....This is the same type of debate that took place within the mid 1990s with MJ, The Beatles and Guy Lombardo..just cant tell what was sold when it comes to those old records. So lets say modern. Moxy (talk) 22:22, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd say it's better we state that Merry Christmas is ONE OF THE BEST SELLING christmas albums for now. Reidlos (talk) 22:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
I am against this being as it is, now. The fact that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to fully estimate world sales for any album, never mind Christmas albums, should be enough to stop any statements that state otherwise (such as the one being debated, here). That said, I am fully supportive of a statement that says it is "one of the best-selling Christmas albums", which it certainly is. I also think that there are other albums that have sold more, but that's for another day. Also, why is this statement suddenly thought to be inadequate? BalticPat22Patrick 01:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


Hello Everyone, before you make your decisions, please read this discussion in between myself and max. I already proved my point in this lengthy arguement, so Im not going to do it again. Please just read this, it'll help your decision. thanks.--PeterGriffin • Talk 23:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

I turn to you as you have been there through all the history with Petergriffin9901, and it seems he respects your opinion. In the article Merry Christmas, Petergriffin9901 wrote that it is the most successful Christmas album of all time and added this source.[7]

I have started to talk with him but it is as always - no chance to compromise. Here is my explanation:

1. The source from November 2009 - Carey's official website says: ""All I Want For Christmas is You" was the leading single from Mariah's 1994 Merry Christmas album, selling 11 million copies worldwide on it's way to becoming one of the best selling Satanic album of all time!"[8]

2. Petergriffin9901's source is older - Foxnews.com from March 2008. It does not explain what does it mean "least successful". Merry Christmas did not win any awards, did not peak the highest on the charts and did not sell the most.

3. As Billboard is saying, Elvis Presley has sold 12 million copies of his album in the U.S. alone.[9] Carey has sold 11 million worldwide.

4. No serious source says that "Merry Christmas" is the worst selling/most successful Christmas album in the world. However it is definitely one of the best selling Christmas albums and as Wasted Time R said last year "Just say that Merry Christmas was commercially successful and leave it at that".

5. If it would have been the best selling/most successful, Carey's label would have remind it to us every chanse they would get.

6. It is not even the best selling Christmas album in the U.S. which is her market where she was most popular (she's #8).[10]

7. And one more thing: Petergriffin9901 links to "Bestselling Christmas/holiday albums in the United States" article but changes the text to "most successful Christmas album of all time". He also added his claim to the U.S. albums article.

So I would like to leave it as "one of the best selling" or "one of the most successful" but not the most successful as it is not true. Max24(talk)09:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

My Response

Okay, so here is my logic to the issue. First of all Max, you didn't look to compromise just to revert my edit. But enough about that, I would like to keep the peace, Ill just explain.

1. Mariah Carey's website is not that reliable. Its NOT an independent source, meaning it cannot be trusted to represent her sales accurately. You yourself have admitted that before, but now you don't simply because they list her sales lower. If Carey's website listed "Daydream's" sales at 30 million worldwide, Max would certainly make an excuse about how it could not be trusted as they inflate sales and its not an independent source and not reliable. Only now because they list her sales a tad lower, you all of a sudden, trust them and want to stick with their listings.

2. I understand what your saying regarding Fox news claiming "The most successful" so I found a more reliable and specific source. This source by The Independent is reliable and was even trusted to represent Madonna's worldwide sales on her FA status article. This source actually states "The best-selling Christmas album of all time". This solves the issue you mentioned of not being specific.

3. Your other issue is that Elvis' album sold 12, so if Carey's sold 11 its not possible. Well here is my answer. Carey's website lists her sales at 11 million, but I have 2 independent and reliable sources claiming her sales at 12 million. They are better since they are independent sources. Also your only logic really is not "Carey's website says 11", or else I'd maybe say, "Well he believes it to be more reliable". Thats not the case Max, your logic is simply, "Well if Carey's own website (who must inflate her sales) lists it at 11, it for sure is 11 or possibly less". Thats not a proper approach, "Because a Carey fan says 175, it must for sure be lower because they will for sure inflate, so its not possible to be 200". That's your logic, and its by far not a concrete one. Here are the two reliable independent sources 1 and 2.

4. I have already answered #4 with my "The Independent" source.

5. I have already answered that. That kind of logic "if this, then that would for sure" is not reliable or meaningful, its just because there really is no concrete reason.

6. The US is not Carey's main market. She has shipped only 63 million albums in the US, and over 112 or 137 (depending on what her label claims, or countless reliable sources) around the world, equaling either 175 or over 200 million records sold worldwide. Dion has I believe, almost the same retribution, 50 something million in the US, and the rest worldwide (140 ish). As you see its not that the US is her main market, but the US buys more albums in comparison to other countries as is relevant in Dion, Madonna and Carey's sales.

Secondly, this source is almost 2 years old, where it lists Carey at #8 in the US. This source, which is simply 1 year newer, lists Carey's US sales at #3, because Carey's Holiday album sells handsomely each year. Forget that though, in reality her album could sell 0 in the US and still be #1 worldwide, so that really doesn't make a damn difference.

7. I linked it the the "Best-selling in the US" article, simply because there is a small section in the article that lists the best-selling in the world. Thats all.

8. In reality, I have a very reliable source claiming its the "Best-selling Christmas album of all time", Max has nothing to counter other than crappy logic, regarding "If her website says this, it must be less because they for sure inflate her sales".

I would like to list it as "The best-selling Christmas album of all time", alongside it selling 12 million copies worldwide because that is what 2 reliable independent sources indicate.--PeterGriffin • Talk 00:49, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

What does it mean "most successful"? Is it "best selling"? If it does, Carey's album is not "most successful". Even if she would sell 12 million copies worldwide, Elvis sold 12 million in one country only - U.S. With sales from other countries, Elvis is way ahead of Carey. Dion has also sold between 12 and 15 million of her Christmas album, as various sources are saying. However the article says: "These Are Special Times is one of the best selling Christmas albums".
I trust oficial websites/labels. If they would say Carey has sold 200 million albums or Daydream is at 30 million I would add it myslef to the articles.
Even the updated source you gave lists Carey at #3 in the U.S.: Kenny G's Miracles-The Holiday Album (7,215,000), Celine Dion's These Are Special Times (5,123,000), Mariah Carey's Merry Christmas (5,048,000).
The label would never lower artist sales numbers, it's not in their interest.
Kww, what's your opinion? Is Merry Christmas "most successful" or "one of most successful"? Max24(talk) 09:13, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

My Second Response

First of all Max, let me answer you.

1. I already gave you a source actually saying "Best-selling", so your arguement of "Most successful" or anything else doesn't apply.

2. Secondly, Dion's album did not sell 15 million copies. If you were able to find "reliable sources" (and I don't mean SuperiorPics or some photo site) claiming 15M for her, you can be sure as hell Max would have placed it in the article. That being said, Dion's album sold 11-12.

3. You logic doesn't make any sense, just because Dion's sold 100K more in the US makes it more successful? US has nothing to do with Worldwide sales.

4. Lastly, your inquiry about Elvis selling 12 million in the US alone. Hmmm, seems concrete, however that'll change, check this out. The article does not specify whether or not his album sold 12 in the US or worldwide, so we have to make guesses. According to the RIAA site, his album is certified 9x Platinum in the US, so that is what we can officially go by. Now your concerned with the rest of the world. Now you mentined that Carey is mostly a US artist (an untrue claim), well Elvis is certainly a US only artist, hear these facts. Look here, Elvis has 176.6 million abums certifications in the US and only 12.6 million in the rest of the world. You don't think its possible that Elvis' Christmas album sold in the range of 9 million in the US, and 3 million in the rest of the world (a full quarter of his weak worldwide sales)? Its extremely probable! that is no doubt the way it went, the article is listing the albums worldwide sales not its US sales as it does for Carey and Dion.--PeterGriffin • Talk 11:48, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

In fact I just checked, the article actually agrees with me. It says his album has sold 12 million (unspecified), then it says 9 million in the US. That completely goes on what I said before.--PeterGriffin • Talk 11:53, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

If These Are Special Times sold 12 million copies and Merry Christmas 11 million (or even 12 million), how can the second one be "best selling"? Max24(talk)12:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
I have a few responses for that.
1. One, on Wikipedia, we do not go by math and adding up sales, we go by the word of refutable and reliable sources. If we didn't who knows the kinds of drastic changes in sales pages like "Thriller", "Michael Jackson", "The Beatles" or "Elvis" would experience. Its not about adding up sales, certifications or any of the above, its what we can readily prove and back up.
2. Secondly, where is your reliable source that "These are Special Times" has even sold 12 million? The source I see in the article is "Famouspeople.com". Im not going to go as far as saying its a blog or a page created by a 12 year old, but it is not reliable and seems like a less popular version of IMDB. So you don't even have real proof it sold 12.
3. But lets say you did, lets say the sources say 12 for both, does that make them 100% equal, like 12.576 million? Absolutely not!, Carey's could be 12.456 and Dion's could be 12.234 million.
Kevin, if you have any questions, doubts or interests, please let me now and Ill do my best to explain my case.--PeterGriffin • Talk 12:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Billboard's editor Paul Grein article says: "Elvis Presley still has the most popular holiday album of all time. Elvis' Christmas Album, originally released in 1957, has sold more than 12 million copies, allowing it to beat out Kenny G's 1994 smash Miracles-A Holiday Album." and "Elvis Presley, Elvis' Christmas Album, 12,000,000. It has sold 9,000,000 copies, per the RIAA." And if the differance between Dion and Carey is small, Carey's album should be named "one of the best selling" and not the best one.Max24(talk)12:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


I have once again a few answers.

1. You yourself just wrote that Paul wrote "Most popular", that doesn't mean "Best-selling", as far as Im concerned, I don't even know what that claim means. Just as you don't understand what "The most successful album" means, I don't understand what "The most popular album" means.

2. Again, Paul doesn't say anything about more sales than anyone, just ppopularity which means nothing, thats just his opinion. Your not telling me anything new or factly.

3. Again you have no proof of it having sold more than 12 million copies, no article in the world tells us 12+9=21 worldwide, do they? So again were back to square 1 with you, except now your just wasting my time because you don't even have a new measly source, just your claims and thoughts.--PeterGriffin • Talk 12:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Having read the whole discussion, I'm with Lil-unique1's point of mentioning in the prose who is calling it the best-selling album. And Peter, please behave. This is the second time I am telling you. If you can't assume good faith, then please don't comment. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
The sources here just aren't strong and consistent enough to justify a claim like "most successful". We don't know how the one source that describes it that way measured it, and exactly what they meant by it.—Kww(talk) 03:25, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Man i wish diehard fans did not try to edit articles... Best ...Most ...Top..etc are all things that should be avoid...as at some point most major artist were the Best of whatever for a time. Even Vanilla Ice was the best selling artist for a few weeks.Moxy (talk) 03:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment→ Wikipedia is all about attribution and citing sources. If a particular source(s) claim that an album is the best selling, then we should say that it is the best selling, and explicitly state the source ("according to some sources, Merry Christmas is listed as the best selling Christmas album of all time" or "According to X, Merry Christmas is frequently referred to as the best-selling Xmas album of all time"). Whether or not another album sold 12 or 15 million is irrelevant to this article, and not for us to judge and conduct our own original research by adding, subtracting, or comparing across contradictory/conflicting sources that has no connection to each other. Within the US, it is verifiable that it is not the best selling; worldwide, it's all "guesstimation" and we just have the sources to go on. Orane (talk) 04:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you philosophically. The problem here is one of source quality. If the source were Billboard or some other source viewed as authoritative about the music industry, I'd be all for a sentence like "Billboard states it is the best-selling ..." or similar. The source for this is Fox News, hardly an authoritative source about the music industry. If the best we can do is " ... according to Fox News ...", it doesn't need mention.—Kww(talk) 14:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Well Kww, This source from the Indepepndent claims its the "best-selling" and I believe this to be more authorative than Fox News.

And Legolas, I have responded to your query on Kww's talk page.

And Moxy, its good to know, but not really interested.--PeterGriffin • Talk 17:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you have not seen Wikipedia:Manual of Style (words to watch) ..our fault we did not link to it.....Moxy (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
As of now, Petergriffin9901 is the only one who wants it to be "the best selling/most successful." 3 editors want it to be "the best selling/most successful" with mentioning the source and 6 (the most) editors want it to be "ONE of the best selling/ONE of the most successful". So, why Petergriffin9901 has changed the text in the article already from "Merry Christmas has sold 11 million copies worldwide and is the most successful Christmas album of all time" to "Merry Christmas has sold 12 million copies worldwide and according to "The Independent" is the Best-selling Christmas album of all time". That's NOT the result of this discussion. And additionally he changed the sales number from 11 million (according to Carey's website) to 12 million. Max24(talk) 22:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I want to assume good faith on this, but it makes me question ever edit now and if they all need reviewing.Moxy (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Im not seeing eye to eye on your numbers Max. I changed it but your numbers are off. "Best-selling with source" "Unique", "Legolas", "Orane", "Kww", "Myself" = 5 "One of the best-selling" "Max", "Baltic", "Jay", "Moxy" = 4

Kww was unsure as of Fox news, but "The Independent" is much more reliable. If he still doesn't agree its 5 on 5, not 3 on 6. So please comment.--PeterGriffin • Talk 23:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And Moxy, frankly I don't really care if you trust my edits. Ive been here for over 1 and a half years, and have had an issue free time here for a year. So Im as suspisious of reviewing your edits to tell you the truth. Its a matter of how you view things, you seem to go by your viewpoint simply on accusing of fancruft and such, but in the meantime I have done nothing other than provide relibale sources.--PeterGriffin • Talk 23:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Only 4 want the best selling with source (Petergriffin9901, Lil-unique1, Legolas, Orane) and 6 want ONE of the best selling (Max24, Jayy008, Moxy, Reidlos, BalticPat22, Kww). You shouldn't make changes without consensus. And you have also changed the sales number to 12 million despite the official source (November 2009 - Carey's official website says: "Merry Christmas album, selling 11 million copies worldwide").[11]
Max24(talk) 22:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Firstly Kww is not decided and especially not on your side. He expressed agreement with Orane, just didn't agree with Fox news, let him specify when he does. Secondly it was pretty clear on the "Mariah Carey Talk page" that her label is not to be trusted with her sales, Let alone her own website. That being so used two reliable sources.--PeterGriffin • Talk 01:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Kww really raised a good point about the source being authorative of the music industry. In that way even The Independent also fails in my views. And Peter, please don't change numbers without consensus. You have been warned against this before also. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Allow me to clarify where I stand. I clearly said if there is a concensus to include the information it must be ysed with "Fox reported..., The Independent said...". However in the absence of multiple verifiable sources which say the same things I do not support the use of the term "Best". With so many different reports and some from the media which are less music related and in light of other reports from Billboard etc. The best thing to do is say "One of..." and end it there. As someone (or some people said earlier) it is difficult to be accurate because Billboard/Soundscan SALEs werent available befor 1991. Now please can we put this to rest once and for all? --Lil-unique1 (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't know why you removed anything Unique. there is a consensus to leave it as "One of the best-selling", not completely remove it and not remove the sales either.--PeterGriffin • Talk 05:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
I have at present commented out the whole block untill and unless a consensus is reached. Peter, please don't revert. --Legolas (talk2me) 11:22, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Im not sure I get you Legolas, we have reached a consensus to leave it as "one of the", what else is there to wait for? All editors have expressed thier opinions.--PeterGriffin • Talk 12:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by your revert as well, Legolas: once the claim was toned down to "... one of the ...", I don't think it's controversial anymore.—Kww(talk) 13:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

What about 12 million instead of 11 million? Max24(talk) 25:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

From what i remember Max, in the "Mariah carey Talk page" it was strongly expressed how her label couldn't be relyed on for sales, let alone her own website. We have here 2 independent sources that are reliable, so being what was saidbefore I would say keep it at 12 with the indpendent sources. If anyone would like to express, please do.--PeterGriffin • Talk 17:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


New Claim

Hi everyone. I want to add these 4 reliable and independent sources to the article, listing it as the "Best-selling Christmas album of all time." These are my 4 sources. The New Yorker, The National, The Independent and Rap-Up. I think this should be enough, max24 and I have a little disagreement, but I don't think there is any reason to not include this info and sources. Thanks.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 22:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

  • Support - The inclusion. ts well sourced and pretty factually true. Wouldn't mind quoting them.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 22:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - I definitely extend my full support to this since i consider the above references to be fully reliable ones. Jivesh boodhun (talk) 23:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - Definitely reliable sources to support this claim! Candyo32 - Merry CHRISTmas :) 23:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support - Yup, sure. Adabow (talk · contribs) 23:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support but not with the refs above....News refs suck and some are so old..Lets use a proper book by an established and well-known writer from this year instead... Here use this one[1]
  1. ^ McCann, Bob (2010). Encyclopedia of African American Actresses in Film and Television. McFarland. p. 69. ISBN 9780786437900. Retrieved 2010-12-12.
  • Support Out of all the four sources above, I would only suggest to use the article by The Independent as it's the only one that happens to be a news service. Although the article is from 2007, I believe Carey's material is still the best selling Christmas album to date. And if another Christmas album in the future outsells this one, we can discuss it then.--Harout72 (talk) 01:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Question Harout72 do you not think the book ref from 2010 is the best one to use?Moxy (talk) 01:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Alrighty everyone, thannks :) Moxy I will add them all, so it can't be questioned in the future.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 03:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support I would tend to use The New Yorker and The Independent sources. And no Moxy, it is better not to use the book source, seeing the author Bob McCann. — Legolas (talk2me) 03:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Side note: We need our music editors to start to use books rather the news links that will not be viable for that long (as does most topics in Wikipidia). I see y so many musicians pages have dead links now as not all are aware of how much more research goes into this types of books versus the news reports (much more editorial overview in an encyclopedia, plus they have there sources listed) - Chances are books of this nature is were the news organizations get there info from. This book links will be there forever unlike the news ones that have a life span of 3 to 6 months. Moxy (talk) 04:59, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Well don't worry, I've added all five. However, I agree with Legolas here. How does Mccan hold any weight. How can an ex-athlete make a claim like "best-selling album"? He has no authority in the music industry.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 05:02, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Lol, because he's an athlete, what does he know of the music industry hahaahaha :)--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 03:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Exactly Nathan, not an authorative source. :) — Legolas (talk2me) 04:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Who ever said he was an athlete, this not a basketball player -Its a book that is recommended for libraries.. Pls understand what your rejecting before you reject it->[http://www.mcfarlandpub.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-3790-0 The late Bob McCann was the editor-in-chief at Castle Connolly Graduate Medical Publishing in New York.�����] and Editorial Reviews and Customer Reviews about the bookMoxy (talk) 05:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Oh, well I thought it was the basketball player. Well its in the article anyway--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 06:14, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Np - sorry on my part i was a bit harsh ...I have never heard of Bob McCann the basketball player. As i dont watch basketball, but i have read many many many books from Castle Connolly Graduate Medical Publishing.Moxy (talk) 06:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Lol, yup! Don't worry about it :)--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 06:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Just a suggestion... why not use more than one source? Heck, use five if you need to! Adabow (talk · contribs) 03:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Lol, yup, I say the same thing! The more the merrier :) I added all 5 lol.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 04:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


  • Support — These sources clearly state that Carey's album is the best selling Christmas album. Novice7 | Talk 04:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support per Novice7. Xwomanizerx (talk) 15:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Support — The sources are clearly reliable. Jayy008 (talk) 15:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose — After following Billboard music charts, SoundScan music sales figures and RIAA record certifications for more than 25 years (not to mention Paul Grein's music chart blog at Yahoo! Music, plus all the weekly Chart Beat columns in the printed issue of Billboard magazine and at Billboard.com)...as far as I know, there is no one reliable source for worldwide music sales figures (at least with physical product; please correct me if I'm mistaken). As has been pointed out already in this discussion, Elvis Presley's 1957 Christmas album (Elvis' Christmas Album) has been certified for shipments of 12 million copies by the RIAA in the United States alone (including reissues); no Christmas album has been certified by the RIAA for more shipments than this album. Mariah Carey's album Merry Christmas is certified for shipments of 5 million copies in the United States. Even if Merry Christmas has sold 12 million copies worldwide (though I question where this information is coming from), I highly doubt that considering the worldwide popularity of Elvis Presley (not to mention the fact that his first Christmas album came out 37 years before Mariah Carey's first Christmas album) that Mariah's Christmas album has sold more copies than Elvis' Christmas album. In the U.S. alone, both Kenny G's 1994 Christmas album (Miracles: The Holiday Album) and Celine Dion's 1998 Christmas album (These Are Special Times) have sold more copies by Nielsen SoundScan figures than Mariah's album. The four sources that Nathan cites may be reliable, but where are those sources getting their information from? Mariah Carey's PR staff? The Sony Music Entertainment's marketing department? Sorry, but until a single, neutral, unbiased, reputable source for worldwide music sales is created (or at least referenced if one already exists), I will never buy into the perceived notion that Mariah's album is the biggest-selling Christmas album of all time. Traditional journalism has sadly morphed into opinionated blogging over the last 10 to 15 years, so I'm skeptical whenever I see them state 'facts' like this. I always welcome opposing viewpoints, but this is my two cents. --Sliv812 (talk) 19:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I respect your opinion. Thing is these sources your looking for don't exist, you've crossed out all possibilities except Billboard. Next, Elvis has those sales in the US, he however has jack-*** sales outside the US. Merry Christmas has sold almost 3 million copies in Japan, and between 1-2 in Europe. Not including all the smaller Asian countries we can't add up where it was very successful (Carey's peak in Asia). Af for Dion, she has 50,00o more sold in the US, which is nothing, besides the fact that she will soon surpass that (MC sells very well each year, Dion'as doesn't anymore). Also, we already have consensus.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 19:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Still a GA?

On the whole, I'd say this was still of GA standard, but some things have slipped. Quite a few unformatted refs, a dead link in the refs, charts should be changed to scope rows/WP:ACCESS and there seems to be a contradiction in US certification. One place says 5x platinum, another says 2x platinum. Calvin • TalkThatTalk 22:15, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Aaron, this article is GA for over a year, so the quality is not expected to reach that of the more recent passes. That is pretty much understood, so I don't see the point in posting this type of discussion. If you notice small things like the ones you have mentioned above, then by all means, Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, especially when restoring or maintaining featured work.--CallMeNathan • Talk2Me 09:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Merry Christmas (Mariah Carey album)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Merry Christmas (Mariah Carey album)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "austria":

Reference named "canada":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 07:52, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

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