Talk:Marquess of Bute

courtesy titles

Given that the present Marquess was famous as "Dumfries", it's not surprising that his son does not use that style; and "Windsor" might easily be misunderstood (the future Earl of Plymouth is called Viscount Windsor). But with three viscountcies to choose from, why use a lesser style? I guess there's something special about "Mount Stuart", but what? —Tamfang 17:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Scottish courtesy titles are often a lot less systematic, and there are many examples of families simply using a particular title for no better reason than that they want to. The Earls of Mar and Kellie, for instance, use "Lord Erskine" when they could use "Viscount Fentoun"; the Earls of Wemyss and March use both "Lord Neidpath" and "Lord Elcho", ignoring "Viscount Peebles"; the Earls of Leven and Melville use "Lord Balgonie" when they could use "Viscount Kirkaldie"; and I could go on. There does seem to be a general trend towards ignoring Viscountcies — I suppose the fact that the Lordship of Parliament is an older and more traditional rank might be playing some part here. Proteus (Talk) 17:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Peerage Format.

Can someone check. I think the the Marquisate was created as: 'Marquess of the County of Bute' not 'Marquess of Bute'. Alci12 15:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, see here [1]. But the title commonly used is 'Marquess of Bute'. Phoe 15:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd checked that one before I had posted but Burke's agrees as well so all's well. As always commonly used is fine as long as we mention the correct form first! Alci12 16:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd checked Burkes too, but hadn't posted it [2]. I know it is always better to have got a couple of sources. Phoe 16:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Looking carefully Burkes does throw up Viscount of Ayr (twice) which wiki doesn't have and lists Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley, Co York. We need to verify we are right Alci12 17:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

One Viscountcy of Ayr was created on 2 February 1622 (along with the Lordship of Sanquhar), and the other on 12 June 1633 (along with the Earldom of Dumfries and the Lordship of Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock), both for the same person. Proteus (Talk) 18:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - I had considered that one could be a regrant not a second viscountcy. Scottish titles and there multiple uses and reuses of the same titles are always tricky. I assume they all have the usual remainders for Scottish and British titles respectively. Alci12 22:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The British titles are normal, but the Earldom of Bute (etc.) is to heirs male whatsoever and the Earldom of Dumfries (etc.), originally to heirs male, had a rather strange regrant and now seems to be to heirs whatsoever. Proteus (Talk) 22:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Re Cardiff Savings Bank

This court case is relevant to the Marquis of Bute: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re_Cardiff_Savings_Bank — Preceding unsigned comment added by A3camero (talk • contribs) 23:43, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

It's relevant to the 3rd Marquess (in whose article it is mentioned), not to the title itself. Proteus (Talk) 07:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

"Earl of Bute" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Earl of Bute. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 25#Earl of Bute until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The present peer

I propose rearranging that section thus:

John Bryson Crichton-Stuart (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled as Lord Mount Stuart from 1993.

On 22 March 2021 he succeeded his father as Lord Crichton of Sanquhar (1488), Viscount Air and Lord of Sanquhar (1622), Earl of Dumfries and Lord Crichton of Sanquhar and Cumnock (1633), Earl of Bute, Viscount Kingarth and Lord Mountstuart, Cumra and Inchmarnock (1703), all in the peerage of Scotland. The heir presumptive to these titles is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).

At the same time, he became Baron Mount Stuart of Wortley (1761), Baron Cardiff of Cardiff Castle (1776), Marquess of Bute, Earl of Windsor and Viscount Mountjoy (1796), all in the peerage of Great Britain. The heir presumptive to these titles is his uncle, Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess.

He also became the 14th Stuart baronet in the baronetage of Nova Scotia (1627).

(I'd add numbers if they can be found.)

I guess the sister is Mistress of Dumfries. Do baronetcies of Nova Scotia, like Scottish peerages, pass to daughters? —Tamfang (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC) Tamfang (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Your version is definitely better than the current version (although the Earldom of Bute and its subsidiary titles are limited to heirs male, so would pass with the Marquessate rather than with the Earldom of Dumfries), but isn't it still all just too much? We wouldn't list all the subsidiary titles in an actual article, so it seems odd to list them in a section. I'd suggest something much simpler, along the lines of:

John Bryson Crichton-Stuart, 8th Marquess of Bute (born 21 December 1989) is the only son of the 7th Marquess and his wife Carolyn E. R. M. Waddell. He was styled Lord Mount Stuart from 1993 until he succeeded his father in 2021.

He has no children. His heir presumptive in the Marquessate and Earldom of Bute, and their subsidiary titles, as well as in the Baronies of Mount Stuart and Cardiff in the Peerage of Great Britain and in his baronetcy in the Baronetage of Nova Scotia, is his uncle, Lord Anthony Crichton-Stuart (born 1961), second son of the 6th Marquess, but his heir presumptive in the Earldom of Dumfries and its subsidiary titles, which can pass through the female line, is his eldest sister, Lady Caroline Crichton-Stuart (born 1984).

Proteus (Talk) 10:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Either of these is better than the current, which is sub-optimal and difficult to read at best. Of these two, i would suggest Proteus's is more easily followed and, i think, reads better. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 10:55, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I essentially agree, but: Can one unambiguously infer, from anything in the article, which titles are subsidiary to which? —Tamfang (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

References

history of Dumfries House

In 1814, Dumfries House, near Cumnock, East Ayrshire, was inherited by John Crichton-Stuart, 2nd Marquess of Bute,

I asked this also at Talk:Dumfries House: who owned it between 1803, when John became 7th Earl of Dumfries (succeeding his mother's father), and 1814, when he became 2d Marquess of Bute (succeeding his father's father)? —Tamfang (talk) 21:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)