Talk:Mark Twain/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 → Archive 5

Initial text

Are we supposed to have heard of this guy? Seems like there might be something more we could say about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.255.83.xxx (talk) 05:50, 19 October 2001 (UTC)

Lines that don't make sense

In the article, in the discussion on his pen name, the following lines are found, which puzzle me. First, "Clemens is also known to have used the pen of his most famous pen name, Twain himself later wrote". I haven't the foggiest what this means. Looking below on the discussion page, it seems like maybe this was once a different sentence which was edited hastily, but it's not clear to me how to fix it.

Also troublesome is the sentence which ends that section: "Twain wants the reader to see the absurdity in his statement.". Here, at least, I understand at some level what the sentence means, except that I don't know what statement it refers to. There's no clearly relevant or absurd statement nearby. Is it clear to anyone else? -Chinju 00:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Move to Langhorn

Let's move the article to Samuel Langhorn Clemens, and redirect there from Mark Twain. --Ed Poor 07:38, 4 December 2002 (UTC)

I think its best at this place - Mark Twain is the vastly more familiar name... Martin 14:43, 25 April 2003 (UTC)
I'd like to see it moved to Samuel Clemens... but that's just me. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.118.167.128 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 10 March 2004  (UTC)
Well, Samuel Clemens redirects to this article. But I think far more people know him as "Mark Twain" than by his given name. —Frecklefoot 16:42, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I vote to move it you &^%%^&.  It makes move sense to have the article about a person under the person's name.  Though, we'd have to move Lewis Carroll, too.  Jimp 2Nov05

I think it should stay where it is at Mark Twain Brody0113 00:04, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I am supportive of the position that we do move the author's real name (same for 'Lewis Carroll', 'George Orwell', and 'George Eliot') - There appears to be now official wiki-policy on this though, so I'll be bring it up soon on Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Mobius 12:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Link removed

Why was this link removed?

Mark Twain's brief biography and works

I looked at it and thought it was pretty good. —Frecklefoot 17:04, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Box?

Does Twain's picture need to be in that box/table? It takes up a lot of room and it doesn't add any information that's not in the first sentence of the article. Apparently it's some sort of template, but I can't find any discussion of it anywhere else. P. Riis 03:39, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I found it: it's called Infox_Biography, and the talk page is here. Apparently there was a battle over having it on Charles Darwin and they eventually got rid of it. P. Riis 04:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It should be removed from here. It is really horrible! Jooler 03:20, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bipolar disorder: sure, but not without a reference

I'm quite prepared to believe that Mark Twain had bipolar disorder, but this should not go in the article without a reference. "Many attribute some of Twain’s extraordinary abilities" just isn't good enough. The article has to say who makes this attribution and which abilities are attributed to the disorder. Accordingly, I'm reverting the article until someone can give a proper reference. See Wikipedia:Cite your sources [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:02, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good call. I suspect it came from Kay Redfield Jamison's Touched by Fire. She has an appendix in the book in which she lists a large group of people who she suspects to have suffered from "Probable Cyclothymia, Major Depression, or Manic-Depressive Illness" which includes Twain. It's completely unwarranted to go from that to the bald statment "Mark Twain had Bipolar Disorder." Also, this particular user is pasting the same biolerplate into a long list of biographies, without even changing the pronoun gender for females. P. RIIS 15:28, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, in fact I own a copy of Touched by Fire, but it's not handy at this instant. I'd be perfectly happy with a sentence saying "Kay Redfield Jamison includes Mark Twain on a list of ... " whatever. And she and Touched by Fire are IMHO more than notable enough to warrant articles if we haven't got them already... let's see whether I get red links. But even to go from  "Kay Redfield Jamison attributes" to "many attribute" is unjustified. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:16, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Do we know if he was a Republican or a Democrat? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.117.8 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 21 November 2004  (UTC)

Twain and the Transcendentalists

Does anyone have any information on what Twain's relationship was to the Transcendentalists? Did he know any of them personally? Did he agree with their views?  Edited: The Individual 03/V/05

                       ask what........    someone please check in the early life section of the page and fix this!! eewww Twain mocked the Transcendentalists found it on metacrawler.com type in "Transcendentalists+Mark Twain" first one...he made a long speech and mocked all of them. have fun Edited: AT 12/2/05

Mormon Insult(?)

I have heard of a story where Mark Twain called Mormon woman butch. Upon doing this, Brigham Young kicked him out of Utah. Does anyone know if there is truth to this, as it might make an interesting addition to his biography. --Mike 22:51, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Twain's book Roughing It contains the story of his visit to Salt Lake City and meeting Brigham Young.  I don't recall that the story you relate was in the book, but you might be interested in its other observations.  --Blainster 18:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
In Roughing It, Twain actually speaks highly of Brigham Young, from the excerpts I've read.  The Jade Knight 09:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Then you need to read the book. Twain directs his typical sarcasm at Young, and not at all appreciative.  --Blainster 20:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Ive heard this quote attributed to Twain speaking about the Book of Mormon, "If you took out every 'and it came to pass' it would be a pamphlet".  Has anyone else heard it, can it be authenticated?--Barrel-rider 11:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
I've read the sections in question, and I really don't see much all that offensive—perhaps I just don't understand Twain's brand of Sarcasm?  (Though, I must admit, I found "The Awful German Language" quite amusing).  The Jade Knight 21:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Death of daughter ?

Olivia Susan Clemens' death of meningitis apparently happened in Hartford in 1896, and another daughter died by drowning during an epileptic attack (here) in 1909.  This addition should be sourced to research that questions such accounts. Schissel-nonLop! 16:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

WTF?

This line is quite confusing:

"Sam doesn't know that this could change his life forever. You see, he was a fraud. Noone ever believed his works because he hurt so many people with them."

--Davecampbell 23:13, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Life on the Mississippi

Someone (24.51.105.193) just changed "Life on the Mississippi" from being non-fiction to being fiction (reference [1]).  Is this an accurate change?  I wasn't able to find a clear indication online, but it seemed people would sometimes put "non-fiction" in quotes to emphasize that Twain embellished. I don't know enough of the author to have an opinion here, but wanted to point it out for discussion and reversion if necessary.  --Hansnesse 03:18, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

  • The point ought to be noted. It purports to be an autobiographical memoir, but, like Jack London's John Barleycorn is obviously the work of a raconteur and it seems to me that any sensible reader understands that it is embellished and contains "stretchers." Dpbsmith (talk) 13:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Library lists it as nonfiction in five categories.  Author Twain, Mark, 1835-1910 Title Life on the Mississippi / by Mark Twain Imprint New York : Harper, c1883 LOCATION CALL NUMBER STATUS North Branch 917.7 T911Lr    CHECK SHELF Descript vi, 526 p. : ill. ; 21 cm Note Originally published: New York, Houghton & Co., 1874 Subject Mississippi River Valley -- Social life and customs Authors, American -- 19th century -- Biography Twain, Mark, 1835-1910 -- Travel -- Mississippi River Valley Twain, Mark, 1835-1910 -- Homes and haunts -- Mississippi River Valley Mississippi River -- Description and travel skywriter 00:55, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Sieur Louis de Conte

Did Mark Twain use this pseudonym for anything other than his fictional biography of Joan of Arc?  Louis de Conte was the actual name of one of her associates.  Twain's carefully researched novel tells the story from de Conte's point of view under the conceit of its being his memoirs.  This seems too exceptional for an introductory statement about the Mark Twain pen name unless Clemens wrote other works under the name de Conte. Durova 11:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

Twain did not coin this, he merely popularised it in America.  See Lies, damned lies, and statistics.  I've removed it. JackofOz 12:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Often thought

But it is often thought that the name actually came from his wilder days in the West, where he would buy two drinks and tell the bartender to "mark twain" on his tab.  Do we know who often thinks this? It would be nice to cite at least one of these people. Markyour words 19:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Reverted vandalism

Reverted some vandalism (nonsensical ha ah substituted for one section, and a part saying "h e was sooo stupid" or something. Furby100 00:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but I would submit to you that it is unecessarily time consuming to document each and every vandal on the discussion page.  These pages would become huge (more so then they are now...) if that were a requirement.  --Easter Monkey 06:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Chapters from my Autobiography

Please consider adding the following to the Bibliography section:

(1906-1907) Chapters from my Autobiography (published in the North American Review, v. 183-186)

See also my note here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mark_Twain%27s_Autobiography thistlechick 04:34, 18 March 2006

Haley's Comet

I don't know where to put it, but someone should add the fact that he was born on the day that Haleys Comet passed over Earth, promised that he wouldn't die until he saw it again, and then died the day after it passed over Earth again. Just thought that was a bit of important information that was left out. Tingle

Quotes

For some reason I feel that the quotes section of this would be better replaced with a link explaining that he was well known for many quotations and providing a link to his WikiQuote page. Does anyone agree or am I just insane? Matt F 03:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

====I say leave the quotes! I came to this page purely to read some Mark Twain quotes. Were you to remove them, I would find the page not nearly as useful! I say they stay! - Anonymous

In any case, the quotes need to be documented so there is no question that they are real.  Each quote should  be footnoted to its Twain source.  Thanks Hmains 16:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

link

Hi, I would like to add an external link to the World of Biography entry, probably the most famous portal of biography to this article. Does anybody have any objections?

please do not add this to the article, and please read the incident report before giving the go-ahead.  This is spam and not link-worthy under WP:EL; the articles contain many distortions, lack citations, and contain nothing that wouldn't fit directly in the wiki article.  a link to worldofbiography has been placed on over 70 talk pages by User:Jameswatt.  thanks.  --He:ah? 20:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

First Book

My Webster's Biographical Dictionary lists Mark Twain's first sucessful book as The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County, and other Sketches, but 1867–1880: First book and family implies that his first book was "The Innocents Abroad". (The bibliography lists Frog first, but the text doesn't even mention it.) This should be fixed...? It confused me for a moment, because my timeline for a Mark Twain school project and the Bibliography list Frog first, but 1867–1880: First book and family didn't. EDIT: Also, this applies to the Roughing it out West section-- "Clemens' experiences in the West contributed significantly to his formation as a writer, and became the basis of his second book, Roughing It." would have to be edited to "...became the basis of his third book..." (But since I'm a noob, I don't want to do this on my own, and probably mess up. ^^;;) Alanahikarichan 19:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It is correct that his first book was Frog, but his first big hit was Innocence Abroad. Does this make sense? Colonel Marksman 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Add Smithsonian link?

Hello! I am a writer for the Smithsonian's Center for Education, which publishes _Smithsonian in Your Classroom_, a magazine for teachers.  An online version of a recent issue titled "Portraits, Visual and Written" is available for free download at this address:

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/educators/lesson_plans/portraits/index.html

Mark Twain and Louisa May Alcott keep uneasy company as the focus of this issue.  Students compare visual images of the authors with written self-portraits.  In one lesson, they compare Twain's 1906 explanation of his unconventional white suit with the ending of "Tom Sawyer," in which Huck has literally cast off the clothing of convention. 

If you think the Wikipedia audience would find this valuable, I wish to invite you to include it as an external link. We would be most grateful.

Thank you so much for your attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.111.254.11 (talk • contribs) 10:24, 20 April 2006 (UTC).

Redundant entry

Pen names: 'Clemens usually maintained that his primary pen name, "Mark Twain," came from his years on the riverboat, where two fathoms (12 ft, approximately 3.7 m) or "safe water" was measured on the sounding line and marked by calling "mark twain."' Mark Twain Constant: 'Samuel Clemens's pen name, "Mark Twain," is the phrase Mississippi boatmen used to signify two fathoms (3.6 meters) of water, the depth needed for a boat's safe passage.' (Actually, Mark Twain Constant seems entirely useless and pointless-- couldn't the information be put into more specific categories? And it also seems oppinionated, to me.) Alanahikarichan 13:28, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Tex 18:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Missouri's succession

The actual Missouri government did succeed from the Union, but the Union replaced the elected legislature and governor with loyalists. The statement "Missouri, although a slave state and considered by many to be part of the South, declined to join the Confederacy and remained loyal to the Union" is not really true. Although the debate about this doesn't really belong on an article about Mark Twain. See Missouri Secession.

Twain and his family life

There is no mention in this article about Twain and his family...his marriage to Olivia Langdon, their children, and the time they spent at her sister's home in Elmira NY, where he wrote several of his books in the octagonal study.  Can any "Twainiacs" (as we respecfully call them here in Elmira) provide some citations to this aspect of his life and add to the article. Souldrifter 15:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Twain and Elmira NY

Additionally to the above, there is no mention of the time that he spent in Elmira, why Elmira is considered "Mark Twain Country" and most importantly- the fact that he is buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Elmira.  Twain is famous for having gone all over and Hannibal and Hartford both claim him for obvious reasons, but Elmira was an important aspect of his life because his wife's family was from and lived in Elmira (Olivia Langdon graduated from Elmira College in 1864).  He also was married and attended services at Park Church.  Can someone provide some research and references for this aspect of his life?  My website at http://www.cityofelmira.net/history/mark_twain.html has some information that might be useful but I'm a bit busy right now to compile it for WikiPedia...but if someone else wants to use that as a source, please feel free to use the text there however you need to.  Thanks. Souldrifter 15:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Francophobe Racist?

Why exactly was Mark Twain so hard on the French?

see http://www.twainquotes.com/French.html
Some of his comments aren't witty and cross the line into direct racism e.g. "French are the connecting link between man & the monkey." 

Bwithh 02:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. French people aren't a race. Tex 02:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok then, "ethnically discriminatory" or however you want to phrase it. I was using "racist" in the most common colloquial sense. If you want to get technical, saying what definitely is and what definitely isn't a race is to overlook a wide-ranging debate over whether race actually exists beyond its ever-shifting construction whether scientifically or socially. Bwithh 02:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. Well, Twain has been accused of being racist often enough that you should be careful of how you use the word. 

French culture appears comical to English-speaking people. They are easy targets. This is why they are regularly an object of ridicule, from Congress right on down to The Simpsons. When Twain says they are the missing link between man and monkey, he is Exaggerating for Comic Effect. He doesn't mean it any more than he means it when he says that Tom Sawyer drove his brother into the ground up to his chin, by dropping a watermelon rind on him. That is also an Exaggeration for Comic Effect, a joke, a gag. It is not racist, by any definition, to make fun of the French. 

What's more, I think that the debate over whether or not race actually exists, doesn't affect my statement that the French aren't a race. Neither side in that debate claims that the French are a race.

I'm surprised I have to explain this. Tex 14:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Given my reference above to The Simpsons, I found it amusing that they used the exact same gag as Twain last Sunday, except that Homer was portrayed as the 'missing link' between man and monkey. Coincidence? You decide. Tex 18:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Twain as a Character in Fiction

Can someone wrangle up a list of fictional works in which Mark Twain has appeared as a fictionalized version of himself? I can recall Time's Arrow, an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, a few novels by Harry Turtledove, and some Robert A. Heinlein, among others. I know there are many many more in many genres and I think it would be a valuable addition to the article. —BassBone (my talk · my contributions) 02:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I am surprised there wasn't one already. I was coming to add The Five Fists of Science but will throw it in here for now. He also appeared in (some of?) the Riverworld books - I'd need to double check but I thought he was in most early ones (as Sam Clemens?) and gets mentioned by name in the The Fabulous Riverboat entry. If I think of anymore I'll throw them in but you should probably have enough to go on and starting the section will prompt other people to throw in their ideas (Emperor 02:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC))
Turtledove is the early books of the Timeline-191 series.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus  talk  18:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this, We should have a seperate article for Twain fictional character, he has been used lately in the Transformers Evolutions: Hearts of steel miniseries. Danrduggan 14:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Possibly start it off as a section in the main entry and then see how things go - it can be split off into a separate entry later if it gets too large. (Emperor 18:42, 10 October 2006 (UTC))
OK I started a section which was moved to its own entry here: Mark Twain in popular culture fee free to expand on it (needs categories for starters) (Emperor 14:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC))

Finish The Sentence!

In the "Pen Names" section, a sentence just cuts off in the middle: "Clemens is also known to have used the pen"  I don't know how to revert it back, or whatever, but I'm just letting you guys know.  Maybe someone was editing and just, forgot to finish?

Epigrams

In my head, the "Whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting" quote is Twains but I can't find any citation for it. Can anyone help? I've always loved that line. Jolomo 20:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Religion

Are there any citations to prove his agnosticism? http://www.adherents.com/people/pt/Mark_Twain.html has some quotes identifying him as a Presbyterian. Homagetocatalonia 19:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Biography: Twain or Clemens?

In the first section of his biography he is referred to as Twain, in the second, Clemens. Which should be used?

Oh, and this link may be helpful in bulking up the article.[2]

Vivisection?

"    * Mark Twain was opposed to vivisection of any kind, not on a scientific basis, but rather an ethical one, in which he states that no sentient being should unconsentingly be made to suffer for another.

"I am not interested to know whether vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't. ... The pain which it inficts upon unconsenting animal is the basis of my enmity toward it, and it is to me sufficient justification of the enmity without looking further.""

This statement is uncited and is POV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.94.221.24 (talk • contribs) .

I went ahead and added a citation to a webpage, which seemed to attribute it to a letter he wrote in 1899.  Given the number of incorrect Twian quotes that float around, however, it may be good to find a better source (such as a reproduction of the letter - a volume of his letters must exists somewhere...).  As far as being pov, I don't think neutral point of view prohibits reporting the subject's point of view, only including our own.  --TeaDrinker 19:25, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mark Twain/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
Needs references. Trivia and Epigrams sections too large Errabee 00:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no way this article is a "B" class. It is barely a skeleton of article with a lot of "fluff", it's a C at best and should not be included in a CD-ROM version. The biography section is nearly non-existent, that section should be 5 to 10 times as long. The biography is the main point of the article. Also the "career overview" is largely original research and un-sourced and missing a lot of material. -- Stbalbach 15:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

If true, that still doesn't mean it's not a B, but rather why it's not an A. To be a Start, it just has to have one of the following:
  • a particularly useful picture or graphic
  • multiple links that help explain or illustrate the topic
  • a subheading that fully treats an element of the topic
  • multiple subheadings that indicate material that could be added to complete the article

To be a B:

Has several of the elements described in "start", usually a majority of the material needed for a completed article. Nonetheless, it has significant gaps or missing elements or references, needs substantial editing for English language usage and/or clarity, balance of content, or contains other policy problems such as copyright, NPOV or NOR. With NPOV a well written B-class may correspond to the "Wikipedia 0.5" or "usable" standard. Articles that are close to GA status but don't meet the Good article criteria should be B- or Start-class articles.

--plange 22:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a subjective call, I just don't see this as being a B article. There is basically no Biography section (what is there is poor and should probably be removed). Considering this is a Biography article. -- Stbalbach
Yep, and I would call that a "significant gap" that is defined under B. In fact I'm the one that noted on the to-do list that it needed such info. I'm not saying your doing this, but keep in mind that the scale is just meant to give a ballpark of where the article is so that WP:WPBIO can know where it stands and prioritize when it should focus attention on it, and not to make a WP:POINT. This article has already been identified by our group (WPBIO) as needing help and is our first collaboration under the core biographies sub-project. So, let's dig in and help improve the article :-) --plange 15:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 15:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 21:23, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

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