Talk:Mariia, Ukraine

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On 4 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Lenina, Luhansk Oblast to Mariia, Ukraine. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 4 November 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lenina, Luhansk Oblast → Mariia, Ukraine – This settlement is completely unknown in English-language sources. Searching "Lenina, Luhansk Oblast" (without the quotes) gives me literally zero sources that aren't just autogenerated websites that scrape data from open-source geographic databases. The only results are about streets with the name unrelated to the settlement. Because there is no English WP:COMMONNAME, we should use the official name of the town given to it by the Ukrainian government with the national transliteration system per WP:UAPLACE. See consensus in similar discussions at Talk:Khrustalnyi and Talk:Bunhe for precedents. HappyWith (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Jenks24 (talk) 10:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I object applying UAPLACE to localities which have never held by Ukraine after they have been renamed. You can only rename something you control, otherwise the rename is just on paper and does not affect the locality in any way. Ymblanter (talk) 08:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What name is used by the Russian-backed forces who are the de facto government of this area? PatGallacher (talk) 13:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we even know this. Presumably it's "Lenina", given the "LPR" have condemned the renamings of any settlements, but - to my knowledge - we have zero sources specifically about this settlement. In the absence of that, we should use the official name that is given to it by the legitimate government of the territory. HappyWith (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a minute! It's not Wikipedia's business to pass judgement on who is or is not the legitimate government of any territory. So I would cautiously oppose this proposed move. PatGallacher (talk) 01:29, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't Wikipedia doing anything - we are following what the sources unanimously say. Literally all reliable sources agree that Ukraine is the legitimate government in this case and that the illegal Russian occupation is illegitimate. The United Nations repeatedly condemned the occupations, etc. HappyWith (talk) 01:40, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We’re not “passing judgment.” RS not only tell us the meaning of legitimate, government, and Ukraine’s territory so any person can reasonable understand the situation, but RS also say so in so many words: that the Russian Federation illegally occupies Ukrainian territory during a war of aggression and its laws have no jurisdiction there. If you refuse to accept it and insist on Wikipedia articles reflecting a WP:FRINGE POV, maybe that’s an example of WP:RGW.

But it’s not even necessary to identify your incompatible POV, because this is not a political question at issue. The questions here are merely 1) what are our consensus guidelines for naming places generally and for naming places in Ukraine, and 2) which name sources do use, and it is answered with references I cited.

Arguing the Russian military occupation’s legitimacy or not is a distraction. —Michael Z. 15:23, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The core naming convention WP:WIAN recommends we use sources including the following:

Geographic Names Server[1] gives the name Mariia and variant names Imeni Lenina, Lenina, and Posëlok Imeni Lenina.
Maps, whether printer or electronic
- Google Maps: Lenina[2]
- Apple Maps: Mariia[3]

The more-specific guideline UAPLACE is also consistent with renaming the article after the place was renamed Mariia. (Some editors talked up exceptions to that guideline in many RMs for almost a decade now, but there has been no such proposal, discussion, nor consensus to amend the guideline.) —Michael Z. 19:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per Michael Z. As also substantiated in additional comments by HappyWith, the settlement in question is unquestionably in Ukraine, therefore the main title header of its English Wikipedia entry should depict its Ukrainian name. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If people find RS that support the new name, fair enough. However I have looked at UAPLACE and there is nothing about following the legitimate government of a territory, as judged by the United Nations or anyone else. PatGallacher (talk) 15:28, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Moot point on several accounts. But even if we were of a mind to humour supposed Russian claims,[citation needed] this place was renamed in 2016, when Russia recognized it as part of Ukraine.

Russia only recognized the “independence” of its DLNR proxy forces in February 2022, and then revoked it by “annexing” territories in four regions it doesn’t fully control in September 2022. So you would have us accept Ukraine’s renaming it in 2016 and Russia’s supposed un-renaming in 2022 as well? This whole line of reasoning has no relationship to our guidelines at its root (see WP:OFFICIALNAME), and also lacks any internal logic. —Michael Z. 15:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.