Talk:Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha/Archive 1

Clarifications

1. I am a huge fan of the show and I honestly don't know what you mean by the "carefully crafted choreography" being a significant divergence from other magical girl shows. Do you mean fanservice? Panty shots? Or are you talking about the fight scenes being more detailed and/or intense? Or are you just trying to praise the animators? Enlighten me so we can discuss.

2. Show, series? Do we need to stick to one of those?

Please respond, thanks, --Zaorish 03:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed -- Nanoha is absolutely amazing and I love it and all that, but this section is too heavily opinionated and, dare I say, fanboyish. What actually confuses me more, though, is the part about it being "significantly more emotionally intense than other magical girl series". Says who? What does this even mean? I'd like to remove it, but I'll hold back. --Jxh2154 06:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply: Well it is more serious and deals with some issues more than some Magical Girl series. Although to be honest, I haven't seen many other Magical Series, so I can't say so myself. But compared to the ones I watched before (Mewmew power, Sailor moon, Card Captor), it is much more serious on dealing with such emotional issues like social alienation or child abuse (season 1). Season 2 deals with a little different issue, the knights never having a nice master before nor "friends" other than each other until they met you know who. I guess this is what the person who wrote "more emotionally intense" meant.

Reply: Comparing this series to other magical girl series, it becomes obvious that the target audience is teenage or so males. The "careful coreography" is would be quick fanservice such as Alf's clothes, the transformation sequences, the suttle but noticable shots towords westernly objectionable body parts, and the list continues if you just keep your eyes open. A clear comparison can be made with Sailor Moon (targeted primarily at girls). You won't find so much as a single panty shot as hard as you try, and the transformation sequences are less than inspiring. Fate wears half a skirt and technically she's 10. Don't forget the sufficient times that Nanoha has been seen in her underwear. Something you wouldn't normally find in other magical girl series.

Nitpick: If you never saw a pantyshot in SM, you must either not have watched enough or been watching the American version, since there was at least a brief one in Sailor Mars' debut episode. I understand the transformation sequences were altered to be less revealing as well in the US version. Kazuaki Shimazaki 05:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

That aside, by chereography I think they meant the fight chereography. Note for one the low amount of stock attack footage. The low episode count may help, but attacks like Divine Buster (used more than once, fired from "stationary" poses, and with a long charge time) and Photon Lancer (a quick-reaction magic, true, but stock footage never cared what your correct position is supposed to be when firing it) are tempting targets for stock footage - yet they didn't. Kazuaki Shimazaki 05:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Generally, you can pinpoint a common "magical girl" series by how often they reuse the transformation animation. I think Cyberdojo had a drinking game where a rule was "drink once for a magical girl transformation sequence... twice if it's Sailor Moon." Magus Melchior 11:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Spellings

The characters' section lists Yūno, but elsewhere in the article, Yuno and Yuuno are also used, which should be used for consistancy purposes? -- Remy Suen

Hmmm... I was wondering if there was any official romanization of his name (anyone seen a romanization of his name on any Japanese material?). A Japanese Nanoha wiki I checked mentioned that his name may be from Mazda's Eunos cars, and thus it would actually be "Euno". I don't see it being widely used, though. And I say "Scrya" on his family name, from "scry". --EmperorBrandon 03:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I also feel that Scrya is a more appropriate romanization. The "official-ness" of this spelling of his first name will definitely be up for debate, but the website for the series does actually use "yuno.html" if you look at the URL. [1] -- Remy Suen 10:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, should all instances of Kyouya be altered to Kyōya (and others like it)? I noticed that Fate/stay night does actually keep all instances of the name marked with the pronounciation markings, so I was wondering. -- Remy Suen 10:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters

It seems that there is a page for Alicia Testarossa, but it is not even linked to from this page. Should the characters section be expanded to include more characters even though it may introduce heavy spoilers? I notice that that section is currently pretty conservative about what it says. -- Remy Suen 02:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think Alicia should have a page, since she isn't considerably notable (doubtful any of the individual characters from Nanoha need an article, with the possible exception of Fate and Nanoha herself) --EmperorBrandon 03:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, she can either be integrated into the characters section with a brief description before the spoiler tags, or we can just spoiler tag the entire characters section and elaborate on each character more. I am leaning towards the latter although I'm sure some other editors may feel otherwise since the article's descriptions are quite conservative, as I mentioned before. -- Remy Suen 12:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If anyone wants to reorganize the characters' section some more, please go ahead. Perhaps Yūno and Arf shouldn't be in the "household" section, so... --Remy Suen 13:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Episode air date

In the infobox, it is said that the show aired from October 1st to December 25th. However, if you look at the calendar, the final date on the Friday is December 24th. So does anyone know if the show actually started airing on the 2nd, or whether the last episode was delayed one day to be shown on December 25th? --Remy Suen 21:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

The way Japanese television air times work allows for "Super-late nights", which means show can be listed as starting at, for example, 25:30 on a Friday. The show will begin at 1:30am on the Saturday, but who wakes up at 1:30am? If you were going to stay up for it, you'd stay up super-late on Friday night. Nanoha aired at such super-late times, so the final ep super-late on the 24th played early morning on the 25th, making both sources correct. --Omnisentry 00:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Character pages infobox

Although we all owe alot of thanks to Sana Jisushi for starting this up, the character pages are in dire need of an infobox.
The current character pages include a "profile" section, which contains: (taken from Takamachi Nanoha)

(image) Age: 9 in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and A's, appears to be older in Triangle Heart, 15 at the end of A's
Hair: Brown
Eyes: Blue
Affiliation: Time-Space Administration Bureau
Home World: Earth
Device: Raising Heart/Raising Heart Excelion
Familiar: None, though Yūno has been mistaken for such in his ferret form and indeed serves the same function
Magical Colour: Magenta
Barrier Jacket Design: A blue and white stylized school uniform with a metal waist guard

I have searched in wikipedia for servral hours, and I haven't found a clue to how to make one, so I'm very sorry that I couldn't contribute.
Character infoboxs that we could use as an example can be found everywhere, like Template:Bleach_character_info. Kurigiri 18:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was a little hesitant myself about building an infobox template, as there were, what, four mages with Devices? I was also concerned that it would take away from article length, but considering Nanoha's and Fate's articles, that shouldn't be a concern. Righto, I'll get cracking on one. Magus Melchior 07:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There are... If you include A's, then about 7.

Oh, and do you think it should include the 'Barrier Jacket Design'? It is pretty useless, since we could just put up a screenshot. Anyway, thanks, Magus Melchior. Kurigiri 13:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the design stuff probably belongs under the Barrier Jacket entry in their "Powers" sections (might as well, since not everyone's viewing images on wikipedia). Magus Melchior 16:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much for starting up the infobox. I've never known how to make one myself, either! My only problem is that the current infobox removes a lot of Triangle Heart information. Should we have one big Torananoha box or two seperate? I'm voting for the latter, but won't that make the pages for characters like Nanoha, Miyuki and Chrono a bit stretched? --Sana Jisushi 01:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What sort of info are you looking for? From what I saw, there was only the age (but then again, I stuck with Nanoha characters). We can fix up a simple infobox in the same style. Magus Melchior 07:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Age, weapon, affiliation, origin, whether the character has an ending in the game. Maybe first appearance and whether the character is currently alive, too. ...And I definitely just made up the word "Torananoha" yesterday. Not sure if you'd write it とらなのは or とらなのハ, though. Sana Jisushi 02:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we can drop whether the character is still alive, and the game ending thing. But a first appearence is a good idea, if you ask me. Kurigiri 10:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

We're only looking for notable stats, rather than every last detail, so I agree with Kurigiri on the game ending and survivor-to-end details. Additionally, we don't have to (and we shouldn't, IMO) expand the Nanoha template to include Toraha, because Nanoha is significantly different from Toraha as a spinoff. What I'm suggesting above is a new Toraha character infobox template that we can insert into the "Toraha" sections of the Nanoha characters, and in the main sections of those characters who are more prominent in Toraha.

Hah. I didn't even follow my own suggestion. Magus Melchior 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm gonna need to make the image and character name variables in both templates optional, although I don't know how similar the character designs are between the two series. 24.4.105.240 21:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

D'oh. Wikipedia forgot who I was (logged out). Magus Melchior 21:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:NanohaTakamachi-TriangleHeart.JPG
This should explain it all. Sana Jisushi 03:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I should've looked at ANN and compared the designer and animation studios, but I was lazy. (BTW, you shouldn't directly embed images in talk pages; link 'em the way one would link categories.) Not a big deal, though; just a bit more template hacking. Magus Melchior 05:51, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, after a bit of study of the Japanese Toraha article (and much head-on-keyboard-type error smashing), I've made an infobox and updated Nanoha Takamachi's article. Sana, can you tell me if I'm missing anything as far as entries in the box? Magus Melchior 07:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, about the infobox.. what should we about Suzuka Tsukimura? adding an infobox will shorten the article, but I don't think we should keep like this.

I think Suzuka's article is in a similar situation as Alicia Testarossa's, just that Suzuka happens to have more screentime, and hence, more content. Personally, I think they're short enough to warrant merging into the main Nanoha articles. Magus Melchior 12:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep, we should keep them in the main article. They're short as it is.. Kurigiri 13:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been wondering about keeping Suzuka and Alicia myself. Still, if you recall, I made Alicia to avoid spoilers on the main page. Maybe we should make a "List of minor characters" page? Sana Jisushi 00:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

A "List of characters" page should suffice, with major characters linked like Main article: Wikipe-tan and a brief a description as possible on the list article.

I've made a sort of a list, but I didn't include Triangle Hearts since I didn't know how (never watched the ova).. will it do? Kurigiri 18:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a good start to such a list, Kurigiri. Examining some of the differences between Toraha and Nanoha, I think it's best to kinda consider Nanoha as an alternate universe spinoff (given that it's spun off of an expansion game to Toraha 3 iirc) rather than heavily connected with Toraha, although we can note the different roles played in each series in the character articles themselves. That, and there seems to be a general lack of desire in ivory, et al. to reconcile the two series. Thoughts? Magus Melchior 20:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, especially when you think of them as different series (which they are, they just share a few characters). Kurigiri 21:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

done. Kurigiri 17:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

An idea for a new article

I've been thinking about writing a "Magic in Nanoha" article for some time now...
It could include the abilities (already written in character pages), about Mid-type and Velka-type (or any other type that will be revealed in StrikerS), the Devices, the Lost Logia (the Jewel Seeds and the such), about the Book of Darkness, and of familiars. Kind of like Magic in Negima.
What do you think? Kurigiri 22:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they've fleshed out the magic systems nearly as well as other series that use "magic", so I haven't given this much thought (you'll notice that the Belka and Mid-Childa systems, aside from the language spoken by the devices and possibly the cartridges being standard in the Armed Devices, are pretty similar). Nanohawiki makes some attempt at trying to organize the spells according to the data they've gathered from the series and accompanying merchandise, but even then it's a little hard to make sense of the design of the magic systems. Magus Melchior 15:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it sounds good to me. Sana Jisushi 03:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

As the Japanese say, Zengen tekkai (前言撤回, "I take that back"). After changing the "Weaponry" section into a full-blown glossary of Nanohaverse jargon, I think a separate article, like, oh, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha glossary of terms would be a good thing. That way, we can put a lot of magic-related stuff into one spot for both (well, eventually three) series, and add the stuff that's not necessarily magic (TSAB's command structure, for example) that's found in NanohaWiki. I'd underestimated the sheer amount of information that those guys drew out of the series and merchandise. Magus Melchior 15:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... If there aren't any objections, I'm-a gonna start a glossary article a la Neon Genesis Evangelion glossary. We can put all Nanoha magic-related and TSAB-related jargon in here. Magus Melchior 10:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No objections here. Though we might need to create a "Nanoha" template, now that we have servral articles on the series. Kurigiri 12:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Woot. Well, the article's up. Magus Melchior 14:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Template

So far, we have... Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's, Nanoha Takamachi, Fate Testarossa, Arf (Nanoha), Precia Testarossa, Vita (Nanoha), Signum (Nanoha), Hayate Yagami, Yūno Scrya, Chrono Haraoun, Characters in Nanoha and now Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha terminology. We could also list Triangle Hearts as a spinoff, and we will eventually have a StrikerS article too.

Sorry to interrupt, but I was wondering why Noel K. Ehrlichkeit has been given the same treatment as the Suzuka and Alicia articles. Unlike those, Noel's article was created based on her high importance in Toraha3. She deserves an article as much as Yuuno or Vita, I'd say. Sana Jisushi 23:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That's true, but we're primarily going after a Nanoha context. Arguably, Noel really doesn't play that much of a role in the Nanoha series. That said, I think Kurigiri was just naming articles off the top of his (her?) head. Magus Melchior 23:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That's pretty much what I was doing. I guess that that if a template (or article series box, as Magus mentioned)is made, we could include Toraha in it, since they are related. Although it'll be.. wrong. They are different series, and should be treated that way.

If, by "same treatment", you were talking about the Character list, then it's because her article is based on Toraha. The caharacter list is about the Nanoha series, and that was all she did in Nanoha.

Now, may I ask why is this discussing going in the middle of my earlier post? Kurigiri 19:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

We need a template. Should we ripoff Template:Negima, since it perfectly fits, or is there anyone here that knows how to make templates? :D Kurigiri 15:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What you're looking for is a series box template. I don't know that we have enough articles in the category itself to warrant having one, as we can probably access them all in the category page rather than putting a box on every Nanoha article. Maybe we could wait until StrikerS is released? Magus Melchior 17:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, got tired of waiting. Personally, I think that it came out pretty well, and that we do have enough articles. I won't incorporate it yet though, I'd like to hear what you (Magus and Sana) think. Kurigiri 15:09, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I should have paid more attention. ^^' Anyway, it's good, although I think adding Chrono into Others and putting Triangle Heart in there somewhere would be a good addition.Sana Jisushi 21:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen it in action, and it looks pretty good-- nice and clean. Good job, Kurigiri. Magus Melchior 17:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Magus, Sana. Sorry for not waiting about that, as I said - got pretty tired of that. Lol, I forgot Chrono when I made the template. Kurigiri 17:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's fine. I was being lazy. Speaking of which, I gotta get working on more articles... And most people call me "Jisu" anyway. ^^' Sana Jisushi 03:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"Raging" lunatics

As we can see, the invisible notices in every other section haven't been working. Any other ideas to deter the rampant edits? Other than sitting back and hoping that The Triad says Raising Heart in their upcoming StrikerS release. Sana Jisushi 03:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to the world of vandal-squashing (there was a persistent one that added "moe" comments to the Vita article). No doubt you've noticed that all of the "Raging Heart" edits came from IPs, rather than named users. We can't really do anything to convince Triad (or other groups for that matter) to change the nomenclature, so we can't really expect anonymous editors to maintain the same level of consistency. The best we can do, IMO, is try to remain civil to them and hope that they don't do repeated reverts. Magus Melchior 00:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, I remember that one. True enough. At least we don't have to deal with what the Tokyo Mew Mew project goes through. If people were over here trying to convince us that their fancharacters were real, I don't know about you, but I'd probably go insane. But do you really think there's nothing else to do? Sana Jisushi 04:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Add the "Please note: The name of Nanoha's weapon is "Raising Heart". This is not a typo, nor is it incorrect ect ect" statement to every mention of Raising Heart. --Theredstarswl 07:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it really so clear that "Raising Heart" is more correct than "Raging Heart"? I know that there were the Japanese DVD inserts that spelled it as "raising", but the insert creator might very well have been working back from the pronounciation in the series just like the rest of us were. Certainly "Raging Heart" is a much more natural and evocative name for us native English speakers than "Raising Heart" to the point that "Raising Heart" seems almost painful (what, her heart leaves her chest to pick things up and put them on shelves?). There's also the case of Levantine/Laevatein, where by pronounciation Signum seems to be saying Levantine in the show, we get Laevatein on the inserts. At least in this case both of the two terms are appropriate and names for swords, and Laevatein fits in with the Wolkenritter motif even better than Levantine does. Symmetry 04:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC) Also, I seem to remember that the manga had it as raging rather than raising as well. Don't know how canon should work on manga vs. dvd inserts when we're talking about the anime though. Symmetry 04:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the A's DVD inserts/cards also have "Raising". If it were in error the first time around, they probably would have changed it in the second season. Since the "heart" refers to the device and not Nanoha's heart, I fail to see the reasoning in your sarcasm.

In any case, the sources closest to the anime have "Raising" (don't know about the original manga, as I'm sure they used katakana), and that's what we should use, no matter how silly it seems to us. Magus Melchior 06:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to point out that "Raising Heart" is the sort of awkward phrasing you'd never hear a native English speaker use, while "Raging Heart" is perfectly natural. Its quite true that "Raging Heart" would refer to the device, but the two words would seldom be used together and fail to invoke any images - unlike "Raging Heart". Of course, much of the rest of the dialogue of the various intelligent devices is awkward, but that might very well be just affected to make them seem like devices. It could very well be that what the writers meant was "Rising Heart" and that their command of English simply failed them. When Nanoha first invokes her staff she says "As the winds fill the sky, and the stars fill the heavens, so shall my heart fill with courage, and my hands with magic!" That works pretty well with "Raging Heart" a heart filled with courage could easily be described as a raging heart or a rising heart, but all the imagery in the phrase deals with things acting on themselves and raising is inherently an act you preform on something else.

With regards to the manga, since all of Nanoha's staff's dialogue is in English its pretty natural that it would be rendered in romanji (in a sans-serif font too I bet, given how mechanical the voice is in the anime). But as I said I didn't read the manga myself, I only have it second hand that the manga gives the name as "Raging" rather than "Raising". Symmetry 19:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we don't get to pick the romanization that makes the most sense or the one that sounds the best to us—we are stuck with whatever the creators choose (per Manual of Style for Japan-related articles: "Honor the current spelling used officially by that party."-- I understand it refers to romanization issues of Japanese names, but I think it applies here). I don't know if the manga captions were consistent, but the StrikerS manga used katakana.

Magus Melchior 21:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

To be honest with you Wikipedians, I was considering "vandalizing" your articles in this way, but was patient enough to find that you've already discussed it. It's pretty clear to any seasoned anime fan that "Raising Heart" is a typical japanese-person-speaking-english phonetic mistake, though I agree with your procedure on using official names if they are there. In this case, though, I think "Raging Heart" is supposed to be a backhanded commentary on Nanoha's personality and present only because of the henshin-spinoff nature of the series. Even if it refered to the device itself, this still applies, as the majority of it's dialouge consists of egging Nanoha on to be more courageous. In the opinion of the likely vandals, whom you call "lunatics", the spelling "Raising Heart" is one perpetuated by English-speaking people who feel Japanese culture is somehow special and their mistake should be perserved because it's somehow "better". You could probably pervent alot of vandalization simply by giving the name disagreement among english-speaking fans honorable mention somewhere in any of these articles, if your protocol allows. Just some friendly advice. 71.143.24.254 10:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is "clear" that it is a mistake at all. It is on Japanese merchandise, and the katakana is レイジング (reijingu). This can be "raising" or "raging". They're phonetically the same pronounced in Japanese, just as two different words with only an "r" and "l" difference can come out that way. --EmperorBrandon 01:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what I mean exactly, it's a problem with translation due to the nature of Japanese, it's interchangable and I doubt they care. I'm reticent to believe "raising" used in anything official is really even a clarification at all, esspecially since it contextually makes very little sense. It seems clear enough to most people, though perhaps not people who would write a wikipedia article on the subject, and maybe that's the problem? 71.143.24.254 09:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't care too much either way, but for the sake of argument: Official declarations aside, are you sure that レイジング can even be "raising". Raising is a "s" sound, not a "j", so wouldn't レイシング or レイスィング　be the correct transliteration? If レイジング is not an acceptable transliteration of "Raising", than we have a continuity dispute because the English and the katakana represent two different words. Kazuaki Shimazaki 10:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think you're right, and it seems clear to me that "reijingu" would be "raging" for the reason you pointed out. I personally feel that the people making the Japanese merchandise must not care much either, but if that AND "raising" are both used officially in different places, perhaps that continuity error should be mentioned in the article. It would certainly prevent "vandalism" based on that, though you guys are on your own with the Vita vandal... 71.143.24.254 00:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Did some Google searches on Google Japan to see what I can turn up. レイジング seems to turn up the intent of "raging" on higher hits more often than not. Still if you also add the English "raising" to the search terms, you get plenty of hits that show the katakana representing that word too. Also, entering レイジング into WWWJDIC only turns up レイジングカム which means "raising cam". My searches on レイシング and レイスィング seem to show it indicates "racing" and not "raising". --EmperorBrandon 01:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

"Raising" is pronounced with a 'z' sound in English, not 's'. There is no 'zi' sound in Japanese, and the closest approximation is 'ji'. Thus, both "raising" and "raging" would be transcribed in the same manner in Japanese. Magus Melchior 07:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem with including "Raging Heart" in the article is that there are no confirmed official sources that use that name— it's not a question of people "who feel Japanese culture is somehow special" thinking that "their mistake should be preserved because it's somehow 'better'". I really don't think we should let people, who hold their own opinions higher than Wikipedia policies and guidelines, significantly influence what goes into the article. Magus Melchior 06:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a neutral footnote is "significant influence", but does help define the history of the subject and enrich the article. If you're not interested in doing that perhaps you should consider the irony of your position a bit. 71.143.24.254 09:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

My point is that this is an encyclopedia, not a collection of information derived from fans. I would love to include Raging Heart in there somewhere, but I believe that sticking with verifiable sources is firmer ground. (I'd much rather that Ivory, et al. license the series to R1 so there's an actual official English source...) Magus Melchior 07:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

As a side note, beginning your original argument with "... you Wikipedians" and with a tone that can be construed as condescending doesn't do much to help your case. Magus Melchior 07:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

So in short, "Raising" is a weak and possibly faulty transliteration at best, and a terribly stupid and inappropriate error at worst. I understand the desire to maintain official spellings, even when we're talking about Japan, the nexus of Engrish. But let's get real here. Fans are going to continue to use Raging because 1) it sounds more like what she says, 2) it's the more common way of romanizing those kana, and 3) it fits the situation and character *so* much better that just seeing Raising is an assault on the eyes. But, that said, I honestly do not care at all to play edit-wars with the article. It's silly, but I'll accept it for what it is (sticking to a policy regardless of extenuating circumstances). But give me a break with this 'lunatic' nonsense. Please. 72.78.108.38 23:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I agree. Instead of trying to force only Raising or Raging on people who read this, why not just put both in and let people take it for what it's worth instead? The Wikipedia policies and guidelines key policy #5 does say to avoid bias which following up with Japanese "engrish" is showing. As for reliable sources go, the actual episodes can be used as primary sources in what the watcher hears and interprets. Being a consumer and not a producer, we all do interpret what we are watching in the end. The "official" source for "Raising Heart" is not really definitive proof for anything because Japanese "engrish" is often times incorrect and English primary language speakers will have interpret what is meant from what is actually written and said. For these reasons, I believe instead of choosing one name or the other; we might as well include both in the article because Wikipedia is an "online" encyclopedia with an online community. This means that this online encyclopedia is in fact a collection of information derived from the people who decide to contribute. In summary, if "both 'raising' and 'raging' would be transcribed in the same manner in Japanese." why not include both in the article. --Cookiefury 19:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Wikipedia does not work that way. Wikipedia strives for accuracy in its content, and having inconsistencies in an article is jaring to the reader. "Is it Raising or Raging?" is what the reader will ask, and then the question will be brought up here and it'll never end that way. From what I understand, Raising is the accepted translation of the Japanese on Wikipedia, and it should stay that way. Notice that a vast majority of the Raising --> Raging edits come from anonymous users. I just reverted one such edit from an anonymous on this very article.--十八 22:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia also has a neutral point of view and there are more than one points of view here. As long as all mention of either Raising/Raging are changed to represent both at the same time, the reader will accept both Raising and Raging as acceptable translations. I see this as the most neutral version.--Cookiefury 22:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I still say that having both is unacceptable to the majority of readers to these articles. You can't have it both ways because the question will come up which one is more "official", and people unaware of Japanese romanizing techniques will just ask more questions.--十八 23:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest doing more or less what they do with articles like Creationism or the Moon Hoax. Point out the controversy, note the most likely source (the Triad fansubs), point out very clearly all the official evidence that clarifies this issue, point out that the newest StrikerS fansubs by Yesy use Raising as well, then use Raising for the remainder of articles. Though "Raging" is undoubtedly better stylistically, stylistic complaints are simply not good enough to override official sources - only a direct contradiction with canon of equal or higher rank. If it makes anyone feel any better, remember that Raising Heart's a Midchildra product, and while Midchildran is apparently pretty close to English, it is not exactly modern English. The funny grammar and diction that pops up with their speech should suggest that. Maybe "Raising" has a few submeanings that are in Midchildran and not in English that we aren't clear on. Kazuaki Shimazaki 15:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really see it as a controversy; it's just a stylistic issue as you've pointed out. Giving the article a section on it may deter future reverts, but as of right now, I disagree with making such a section as it would look unprofessional to bring in sources such as fansubs into the mix, though that's merely my opinion.--十八 18:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

And now if you look at openings of StrikerS where Subaru switches into her Barrier Jacket with a really big Nanoha in the background, it's spelled out in the introduction. Ravashack 16:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)Ravashack

The accuracy of the StrikerS opening is highly debatable, however. There are spelling inconsistencies between the StrikerS opening and other equally-canon material such as the website (for example, "Tiana Lanceter"/"Teana Lanster"). Additionally, the StrikerS opening clearly prefers "r" over "l" whenever it has a choice between the two in the process of romanization, even when "l" is clearly more appropriate (the most obvious example being "Mach Cariber"). Considering that even the official canon as written by the creators of the show can't keep consistency, is it any wonder that there's still a debate? Considering that it could be either "Raising" or "Raging", I think it's best to mention both and give a brief summary of "Naming Inconsistencies/Controversies in Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha" or something like that, as Kazuaki Shimazaki suggested. As for Juhachi's objections, I pretty much disagree across the board. There's no need to bring in fansubs, although there's nothing inherently unprofessional about them - and, to be frank, calling fansubs "unprofessional" on the talk page for the Wikipedia article about Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha is a pot-and-kettle action at best and downright hilarious just a little further down the latter. 70.118.112.83 01:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

In StrikerS, the crew distinctly changed the way they pronounced the name. If you listen to the first episodes of Nanoha, it's definitely a hard J sound -- "Raging". In StrikerS there's a definite S sound -- "Raising". It was so jarring that I noticed right away.

About "Raising Heart" being "further from Nanoha's nature"... I'll bring up my old argument. Raging, you believe, refers to Nanoha's style of making all her friends by pounding them into the pavement if they're violating interdimensional law or just not sharing their cake. Let's see now.

Rage is a state of violent anger. It is completely over the top. It is not controlled, it controls. In a rage, you can kill your enemies or even start attacking your friends. You don't care about strategy, or keeping anybody safe, you just fight. This is not what Nanoha is about. Does she get angry? Yes. Does she get violent? Absolutely. But she submits to a higher authority. She recognizes what her opponents are trying to do. She shields other people and she knows when to run. She follows orders, even when she doesn't like them, unless someone's in danger or she knows they're a good person at heart and this is the only way to reach them. Nanoha has a clear mind. She thinks with her heart, but she doesn't raze city blocks with her S+ power, screaming into the wind to destroy her enemy. She just wants to be their friend.

Raising Heart, in contrast, is more than just Engrish. It might look a little stilted, but it brings the connotations of optimism, hope and resilience (think "You raise me up" or something of the like). Nanoha doesn't give up. She'll try to be your friend, even if you almost killed her. She believes wholeheartedly in the goodness of all people; even psychotic, abusive Precia was a person that she tried (and failed) to reach. She knows that there will be a better day tomorrow if everybody works hard enough.

In conclusion, the official terms are not to be ignored. Raging Heart, upon closer inspection, does not fit the character as well as its proponents claim; Raising Heart refers to the nature of Nanoha, which drives the plot and character developments; and, while Engrish, the official name generally makes more sense. If you want a Raging Heart, look at Vita. Sana Jisushi 01:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

So, by arbitrarily broadening the meaning of "Raising" and restricting the definition of "Raging" (not all usages are linked to "anger"), you can come up with a scenario in which "Raising" is better? I don't really care either way but this is really thin.

By the way, does Nanoha really know when to run? In fact, the only time I remember someone actually analyzing the situation and choosing a full blown Retreat over Engage, it was Vita (Ep 7, Nanoha A). Nanoha unhesitatingly engaged the then clearly superior Fate (Ep4&5, Nanoha), threw herself into the fray of six Jewel Seeds (Ep10, Nanoha - OK, so it worked out but I doubt the result was due to calculation), Vita (Ep1, Nanoha A - should have chosen full-speed Extend so Graf Eisen could burn its cartridge on empty air) and so on. --Kazuaki Shimazaki 05:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd recommend thinking about the "rage" in "Raging Heart" as "ardor; fervor; enthusiasm: poetic rage" or "to move, rush, dash, or surge furiously" rather than "angry fury; violent anger." Or in other words more like a raging river and less like a raging drunk. In fact, "overflowing chest/heart" is such a common phrase in Japan for strong emotion then if the origonal intent of the name was in fact Raging Heart I wouldn't be surprised if that was the direct inspiration. Symmetry 03:08, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm relatively new as a Wikipedian, but it didn't take me long to discover there were discussion pages for every article, so I figured the spellings and wordings of controversial things were agreements; I quickly figured there was a discussion here on this topic, and I was right. I can see there's lots of controversy, but I'd still like to put in my two cents. I've been watching Nahona on YouTube, and the subs refer to it as "Raging Heart." I've asked the uploader, Arysia, whether she can confirm the subs are official or fan; I'm awaiting her response. As I'm watching the episodes in order and have only gotten as far as episode 5 as yet, I can't speak as to how the A's or StrikerS subs refer to the device. I agree with those who make the argument that "Raging Heart" simply sounds right to English-speakers and that "Raising Heart", while official, just sounds awful. I figured the policy was that we have to go with whatever is official, even if we don't like it (honestly, that'd be my policy as well), so if it turns out that someone can confirm for 100% certain that it's "Raising," I'll just grit my teeth and accept it; however, I'm all for any attempts to prove it's "Raging." I'm anxious to see how this one turns out. AceOfHeartsDX 12:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.137.121 (talk)

I've received a response from Arysia. She says she's unsure whether the subs in the episodes she uploaded are official or fandubs. I certainly wish this could have been more decisive, but unfortunately, it has not helped to resolve this issue. I recommended that, as she did upload the entire series onto YouTube (and thus must know something useful), she come here and voice her own opinion. I have nothing else to reference, I'm afraid. I hope your research proves more useful than mine. AceOfHeartsDX 22:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.240.137.121 (talk)

I'm still quite new to Wikipedia but I notice some time ago that there is an ongoing feud over whether Nanoha's device is called 'Raising Heart' or 'Raging Heart'. I'm still very puzzled over the naming (as seen in the history list of the article) but I read the Anime News Network's article on Nanoha and they named her device 'Raging Heart'. I was wondering if it counts as evidence since I get the feeling that the people who wrote it are just as confused but I hope to see an end to the dispute, so here's the link.
Anime News Network
To end off, I would have to agree with AceOfHeartsDX that whichever name, be it 'Raising' or 'Raging', that is used for all Nanoha-related articles should be the one used by the Japanese creators, no matter how grotesque or Engrish it sounds... because in the end, they are the ones who brought Nanoha into the anime scene so only they have the right to name the characters and devices as they see fit. I wonder how this 'battle' will unfold... --Remitonova (talk) 12:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Raising or Raging? This should hopefully be finally laid to rest once Funimation releases Nanoha. In the mean time, the evidence, that being official DVD inserts and such from Japan, have it pegged as Raising, despite how much more sense Raging makes (and Raging being what I would personally prefer). So I've just removed a poorly worded mention of Raging Heart from the article. My suggestion is patience, we should have an official romanization from the English-language licensor as soon as Funimation releases the DVDs. Tasunke (talk) 05:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to throw my little bit of knowledge into this. I will put it bluntly: The Japanese katakana on the official website says "Reijing Haato(レイジングハート). You can continue　with your interpretation, but it's wrong. In fact, all three of the websites of all three series say "Reijing Haato". It's nonsense. I can't believe how many paragraphs there are of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.136.140 (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Eh, Funimation has released Nanoha, would somebody who owns the DVD tell us what they subbed/dubbed it as? And perhaps attach some form or evidence - be it a photo of the DVD playing on TV, or something similar. In my opinion, I have several theories that support it to be 'raging'. If you take the opening of Nanoha A's into account, "Eternal Blaze" seems to refer to Nanoha's burning passion/determination in the series, which may then refer/reflect upon her device to be 'Raging Heart' instead of 'Raising Heart'. I'm not good with putting stuff into words, so I hope you can get what I'm trying to say. Also, I'm not sure if Japanese people pronounce the 'ji' as'zi' sometimes for certain words, but if they intended it to be "Raising", they might have pronounced it as 'reizingu' instead of 'reijingu'. Well, the fastest way would be to check what Funimation interpreted it to be. 123.110.22.77 (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I will when mine arrives. It should be here next week. Tasunke (talk) 00:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I have the dvds, and it will probably thrill people to find out that they use both!. The English dub uses "Raging" (the pronunciation is very clear) for the entire 13 episodes of the first season, while the subtitles use "Raging" for roughly 7 episodes before switching for "Raising" for the remaining 6. This is however, because of a production error - according to a post by a former Geneon person who worked on the release in the Animeondvd forums [2] they started their translation using "Raging", but were told by the Japanese to change it to "Raising". "Raging" only appears on the dvd because the dub recording was already underway and the dvds started getting printed with the non-final subtitle scripts. This continues to make it crystal clear that the intended English spelling is unambiguously "Raising". Midshift (talk) 06:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

English Titles Nano

Much as I love mixing and matching languages (who hasn't taken their iPod and made the "Nano nano" joke?) we should probably leave the "nano" out of the English titles since we A) Call attention to it in the note and B) have the "nano" in the romanji below the English. Symmetry 04:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Taking a break

As this is a major series I have been working on, I must inform the editors here, as I have elsewhere, that I'll be taking a break from Wikipedia.

No, this isn't because of the recent New Yorker thing (though I must confess that it has been on my mind), but I must head over to Japan for two months starting next week for business purposes. I don't know if I'll be able to catch much anime, but I know I won't have much time to work here.

Keep up the good work, everyone! Magus Melchior 03:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Split episodes

I propose that the episodes from this article and from Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's be split into a new article called List of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha episodes. Of course, this would also apply to StrickerS.--十八 08:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the response best suited to your proposal is a simple "Why?". I was under the impression that Wikipedia was against the creation of new articles dedicated to meaningless lists which already fit just fine as part of other articles. But I see you've already gone and done it, so whatever. If someone else wants to undo it, be my guest. Doesn't really affect me. 70.118.112.83 16:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Since we have tree seasons, the list of episode it's just fine as a separate article, and it's not a "meaningless list" if the summaries are well written and help to identify the episodes. List of episodes are very common on wikipedia, and some of them are rated as FL. Also the main articles (MGLN, A'S and StrickerS) look better and more clean without the lists. Kazu-kun 20:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Nanoha Meta-Series Page?

Something crossed my mind this evening... should the existing MGLN page be made into a summary page for the entire, existing Nanoha franchise, which is now getting pretty sizable? And thus, should a seperate entry for "Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha_(TV)" be made for this particular season? Either way, I think a semi-portal site for all of the Nanoha franchise may be in order at this point, especially given the scope of what Strikers is turning out to be.SpaceDrake 08:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean more along the lines of the article Dragon Ball (franchise); this article should still be kept for the first season anime, much like how Dragon Ball is kept for the first incarnation of that series. Either way, I tend to agree with your reasoning since right now its a little odd to navigate through the Nanoha articles to find the information you want, especially if you are unfamiliar with the three separate seasons, and then the manga versions do not seem to get much weight in any of the articles either.--十八 09:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the lesbian undertones

Whether there is sexual attraction between Nanoha and Fate is a matter of fan speculation. However, the presence of the undertones themselves isn't: they're plainly observable. During the course of the three series the two female leads exchange countless fawning gazes and hugs, sleep in the same bed, and even go as far as to adopt a child together. In the second season at least three first episodes start with voiceovers with them explaining how they just wanted to be with each other. It's arguably the most visible theme in the three series.

The presence of implied girl-on-girl relationships is hardly new for the mahou shoujo genre, but in the interests of giving an accurate and honest picture of the series there should be mention of this. Leaving it out would be like not mentioning the homosexual undertones in 60's era Batman - or ignoring the lesbian undertones in Marimite. 130.234.5.138 15:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

But in this series all the subtext is only fanservice. A different case would be .hack//SIGN, where the implied lesbian content lead to something related to the plot. Marimite, as you said, is also a good example of this (though more on the characterization department than related to the plot). Those cases are notable enough to be on wikipedia, the fanservice in Nanoha is not (IMHO). Kazu-kun 15:20, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Another thing is that all of the "undertones" are merely fan speculation and interpretation. Speculation and interpretation that can be disputed by someone else who has watched the series and don't see the undertones you imply are there or interpret them as having a completely different meaning. Heck, I didn't see any lesbian undertones on my first viewing of the first series, but I did see a lot of lolicon undertones. So such interpretations shouldn't be put into the article without using reliable third-party sources that discusses the undertones. To do otherwise would be treading into original research. --Farix (Talk) 15:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Nanoha (1st season): The name of the legendary city?

I see that the wiki has the name of the city as Al-Hazard. In my opinion, from what little I know of the Arabic language, i'd think that the name was intended to be 'Al-Hazrat'. Is Al-Hazard the official name, or is it just a guess? If it isn't confirmed, then maybe 'Al-Hazrat' can be considered.

Hazrat would mean something like supreme, highest, or something like that. Preferably it would be nice for someone who knows Arabic better to confirm that. Flameoftheabyss 00:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)