Talk:Macedonian denar

REQUEST FOR MOVE: NORTH MACEDONIA DENAR

I propose moving the article to North Macedonia denar in accordance to Prespa Agreement and the following UN guidelines: "Currency Designation: North Macedonia denar" I recommend that we follow this naming and the Prespa agreement to the word, to avoid endless edit wars , vandalisms etc. -- Stevepeterson (talk) 10:44, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Page title is out-of-date

The title of this page looks out-of-date and North Macedonia has already released coins with the new name of the country. Currency names and their abbreviations are internationally standarized by ISO 4217 as discussed above, and by looking at the up-to-date currency code reported by iso.org in different formats [here], e.g., [XLS] and [XML]. For the currency of North Macedonia, the new official name is denar, and the code remains MKD.

This is not the only case where the name of the country is not part of the official name of the currency. For example, "Kwanza" of Angola, "Lek" of Albania, "Taka" of Bangladesh, and so on. In all these cases, wikipedia uses the adjective derived from the name of the country in front of the currency name for disambiguation, i.e., Angolan kwanza, Albanian Lek, and Bangladeshi Taka.

A similar policy is followed by United Nations that report the currency as North Macedonia denar (as pointed out by Stevepeterson).

I don't have a strong preference between North Macedonian denar (consistent with all other currencies in wikipedia) and North Macedonia denar (used by United Nations), as none of them is official, the official is simply denar. I may slightly prefer North Macedonian denar as I don't see any drawback of it. Another proposal may be to change the title to Denar (MKD) but this is inconsistent to all other wikipedia pages too.

Some examples of recent links (after Prespa Agreement) from the National Bank of North Macedonia confirm that "Macedonian denar" is not used at all. The currency is called denar. Please look at: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5

I am looking forward for your proposals. Thanks. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας 17:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support for North Macedonian denar which is used by a large list of reliable sources. Korpalo (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Korpalo Thanks for this deep analysis, may I ask you to add this comment in the move request below that I just created? Sorry for the inconvience. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k)

Sure, feel free to delete this comment if necessary. I have removed all the reliables sources that were above because all of them are included in the move request below. Korpalo (talk) 08:58, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 6 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is a clear consensus, with evidence presented, that the proposed name is the WP:COMMONNAME.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:31, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

---

Macedonian denar → North Macedonian denar – The title of this page looks out-of-date and North Macedonia has already released coins with the new name of the country. Currency names and their abbreviations are internationally standarized by ISO 4217 as discussed above, and by looking at the up-to-date currency code reported by iso.org in different formats [here], e.g., [XLS] and [XML]. For the currency of North Macedonia, the new official name is denar, and the code remains MKD.

This is not the only case where the name of the country is not part of the official name of the currency. For example, "Kwanza" of Angola, "Lek" of Albania, "Taka" of Bangladesh, and so on. In all these cases, wikipedia uses the adjective derived from the name of the country in front of the currency name for disambiguation, i.e., Angolan kwanza, Albanian Lek, and Bangladeshi Taka.

A similar policy is followed by United Nations that report the currency as North Macedonia denar (as pointed out by Stevepeterson).

I don't have a strong preference between North Macedonian denar (consistent with all other currencies in wikipedia) and North Macedonia denar (used by United Nations), as none of them is official, the official is simply denar. I may slightly prefer North Macedonian denar as I don't see any drawback of it. Another proposal may be to change the title to Denar (MKD) but this is inconsistent to all other wikipedia pages too.

Some examples of recent links (after Prespa Agreement) from the National Bank of North Macedonia confirm that "Macedonian denar" is not used at all. The currency is called denar. Please look at: link 1, link 2, link 3, link 4, link 5 Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k) 14:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. I get far more hits for "Macedonian denar" than "North Macedonian denar" on Google books (47 pages of hits vs. 2 pages). Further, the Macedonian government does not refer to the currency as "North Macedonian denar" because it does not use the adjective "North Macedonian" in any context whatsoever. Thus, per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME, the current title is appropriate. In addition seemingly every wiki except with the Greek one continue to use "Macedonian denar". The UN link uses "North Macedonia denar" (no "n" at the end of "Macedonia"). --Local hero ^talk 16:28, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

You reported 47+2 results but these are not confirmed by the links you provided. I went step-by-step through all the books in the links, and most of them were published before 2019, when the country was Macedonia or FYROM. We should look only on those that were published starting from 2019, and there are only 16 books in Google books. From those 16 books, there are actually 4 main categories

Category 1: TFYR Macedonian denar or historical context

- 3 books report "TFYR Macedonian Denar" and are published by the United Nations in 2019 and 2020, so they don't count in favour of "Macedonian denar".

- 2 books report "Macedonian denar" only once and both in historical context:"The Macedonian denar (MKD) has been pegged to the euro since 1998, ..." and In 2008, the collapse of foreign investments, ... Macedonian denar, ...".

- 1 book reports "Skopje Republic Macedonian Denar".

Category 2: Vague usage of Macedonian denar / North Macedonian currency

- 1 book reports "Macedonian denar" on page 22, as an answer to a question but I cannot confirm that by looking on the same page and book on this preview

- 1 book reports "Macedonian denar" but it also reports "... you have some cash in North Macedonian currency, because there are places that only accept mkd...".

Category 3: Macedonian denar

- 3 books report "Macedonian denar" book1, book2 and book3

Category 4: North Macedonian denar

- 5 books report "North Macedonian denar" book1, book2, book3, book4, and book5

Hence, in Google books in the links that you provided, "Macedonian denar" shows up 3 times (or 5 at most including vague cases), and "North Macedonian denar" shows up 5 times. These books, and many more, are included in the list of reliable sources below. Korpalo (talk) 18:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support. The list of reliable sources (see below) compiled by all users participating in this request, and using the same methodology with the RfC 2019, shows that the current name is not the most common anymore. The total number of references to "North Macedonian denar" or "North Macedonia denar" is 192=(135+57), which is much higher than the only 84 references to Macedonian denar. The 135 total references to North Macedonian denar indicate that a change is necessary in the title of this page (either to North Macedonian denar or to North Macedonia denar) per WP:COMMONNAME. Between these two names, North Macedonian denar is used by more reliable sources than North Macedonia denar, namely 135 vs 57. North Macedonian denar is used by the vast majority of reliable sources while the National Bank of North Macedonia calls it with its official name "denar". Korpalo (talk) 20:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any policy that states common names are determined by excluding sources from more than 3 years ago. Nonetheless, by performing a date range search on Google books from February 2019 to present, I get 4 pages of hits for "Macedonian denar" and just two total hits for "North Macedonian denar".

The government does not use "North Macedonian denar". See here for the National Bank which identifies "Macedonian money" (Македонски пари) as the denar. You will not find "severnomakedonski denar" (северномакедонски денар) used in any government publication. For instance, this recent article from the National Bank calls it "makedonskiot denar" (македонскиот денар; "the Macedonian denar").

Foreign entities also call it the "Macedonian denar" such as the World Bank, the UK, the European Banking Federation, Bank of Moldova, Bank of Albania, etc. The current title is the appropriate title. --Local hero ^talk 05:07, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for providing sources for "Macedonian denar". "Macedonian money/currency" is not the same as "Macedonian denar". One of the Google books that I report above use "North Macedonian currency" and is not included in favour of "North Macedonian denar". The National Bank of North Macedonia refers to the currency as "denar" which is the official name (except one case referring as Macedonian denar). I added your links for "Macedonian denar" under my comment above to have all the references collected together. One of the links you provided, European Banking Federation has a contributor based in North Macedonia and is excluded from the list per RfC 2019 methodology. Korpalo (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: List of Reliable Sources (North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, Macedonian denar: 89 findings)

We use the same methodology with the RfC 2019. We only include links published after February 12, 2019. This is in compliance with the name changes policy which instructs us to give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced, and we don't include sources based in North Macedonia or Greece or their respective diaspora communities.

This list includes all the sources reported by all editors participated in this move request when they fulfil four criteria:

• It should be clear that the source has been updated after February 12, 2019. For example, there is an explicit publication date or the name of the country is North Macedonia. One excellent example of what cannot be considered updated source is the VISA reported by the user Local hero. There is no publication date, and the country is reported as "MACEDONIA, THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF".
• Sources that include only references to historical context (before February 12, 2019) are not included in this list. A great example that confirms this distinction that may happen by a published text is the Deutsche Bundesbank reported by the user Local hero. On page 178, the report clarifies: "North Macedonia (until 11 February 2019: the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia)", and "Legacy currency Macedonian denar" and "designated as North Macedonia denar since 12 February 2019". MOS:MAC makes the same distinction for the name of the country, namely Macedonia when referring to historical context (before February 12, 2019), and North Macedonia when talking about the present. Consequently, any source that uses "Macedonian denar" only in historical context is evidence that "Macedonian denar" was the common name for the currency of the Republic of Macedonia (which is not the question of this Move Request), but it doesn't indicate anything about the name of the currency of North Macedonia (after February 12, 2019). For example, in the wikipedia page of Zoran Zaev, it says "he was a Member of the Parliament of Macedonia". This sentence is not evidence that the name of the country used by wikipedia is Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, the source of Deutsche Bundesbank is not included in the sources list of "Macedonian denar" which is used only in historical references, however, the source is included in the list of "North Macedonia denar".
• A drop-down menu of currencies in online payments is not a reliable source, because the author/editor of a source doesn't choose case by case the name of each currency that shows up in the currency menu. The name of the currency reported in the list is determined by an external software provider. For example, Local hero reported Emptoris sourcing, which shows the default names used by applications/webpages etc. This Emptoris sourcing source is included in the list of findings for "Macedonian denar", and this is a sufficient reliable source to cover all those cases. Nevertheless, the following list doesn't include the currency name shown in an arbitrary number of applications that may rely on the same default currency names provided by the same external company.
• The same source in different languages is not considered a different source. One excellent example is the European Union Commission that publishes the same document that reports "North Macedonian denar" in 24 languages. Therefore, the two sources of the EU are reported once each (not 24 times each, namely 48 times for both documents Official Journal of the EU (28.11.2019) Official Journal of the EU (17.02.2021)).

A finding is defined as any kind of reliable source, e.g., webpage or document, that includes one term (e.g., North Macedonian denar or Macedonian denar) at least once. Two findings are one or multiple results found in two different sources. Not two results of the same term in the same source. The number of results in each source is not reported.

North Macedonian denar: 135 findings

1. International Monetary Fund (2 finding) book1 book2
2. United Nations (1 reference) UNIDO
3. European Union (5 findings) EU1 EU2 EUR3 EU4 EU5
4. Eurostat (9 findings) EST1 EST2 EST3 EST4 EST5 EST6 EST7 EST8 EST9
5. European Banking Authority (2 findings) EBA1 EBA2
6. European Training Foundation (1 finding) ETF1
7. UNICEF (1 finding) Research report
8. USA Government (7 findings) USG1 USG2 USG3 USG4 USG5 USG6 USG7
9. UK Government (2 findings) UKG1 UKG2
10. Government of Montenegro (1 finding) source
11. JuroSystem (1 finding) source
12. World Bank (2 findings) WB1 WB2
13. Public Debt Management Network (1 finding) PDM
14. Central Bank of the Republic of Kosovo (34 findings) BQK1 BQK2 BQK3 BQK4 BQK5 BQK6 BQK7 BQK8 BQK9 BQK10 BQK11 BQK12 BQK13 BQK14 BQK15 BQK16 BQK17 BQK18 BQK19 BQK20 BQK21 BQK22 BQK23 BQK24 BQK25 BQK26 BQK27 BQK28 BQK29 BQK30 BQK31 BQK32 BQK33 BQK34
15. Erste Bank, Austria (2 findings) MO1 MO2
16. Worlds Economic Database (9 findings) WED1 WED2 WED3 WED4 WED5 WED6 WED7 WED8 WED9
17. S&P Global (2 findings) S&P1 S&P2
18. NASDAQ documents (2 findings) link1 link2
19. BTI Transformation Index (1 finding) BTI 2020 Country Report North Macedonia
20. The Vienna Institute for International Economic Studies (6 findings) WIIW1 WIIW2 WIIW3 WIIW4 WIIW5 WII6
21. European Haemophilia Consortium (2 findings) EHC1 EHC2
22. Institute for Field Research (1 finding) irfglobal.org
23. Wageningen University & Research (1 finding) article
24. Tourism Planning & Development (1 finding) article/book
25. NATIONAL BUREAU OF ECONOMIC RESEARCH (1 finding) NBER
26. Hungarian Telekom (1 finding) HT
27. EVN, Austria (4 findings) EVN1 EVN2 EVN3 EVN4
28. PCC Group (4 findings) PCC1 PCC2 PCC3 PCC4
29. Central Asia Metals PLC (3 findings) CAMPLC1 CAMPLC2 CAMPLC3
30. Assicurazioni Generali (1 reference) Annual Report
31. EastEuroCo (1 finding) Labour Market Review
32. Avaron Emerging Europe Fund (2 findings) EVN1 EVN2
33. Liberty Adriatic (1 finding) link
34. Mogo, Latvia (1 finding) source
35. NBER (1 finding) source
36. Krka Group (3 findings) KG1 KG2 KG3
37. Invest in See (1 finding) link
38. TITAN Global (1 finding) link
39. Additional (11 findings in) media: Financial Times Currencies results, Company Announcements, Diplomacy & Trade Modest Revenue Increase at Magyar Telekom, Shearman & Sterling LLP source, Focus Economics (Head title on the tab of the page), PhiPost PP1 PP2 PP3 PP4 PP5, Nioga NG1
40. Google books (3 findings): book1, book2, book3

North Macedonia denar: 57 findings

1. United Nations (1 finding) UN
2. U.S. Embassy in North Macedonia (1 finding) USENM
3. Embassy of Sweden in North Macedonia (1 finding) ESNM
4. Národná banka Slovenska (2 finding) NBS1 NBS2
5. WorldBank (3 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3
6. Worlds Economic Database (1 finding) WED1
7. Microsoft (1 finding) source
8. TCXFund (1 finding) source
9. Deutsche Bundesbank (46 findings) DB1 DB2 DB3 DB4 DB5 DB6 DB7 DB8 DB9 DB10 DB11 DB12 DB13 DB14 DB15 DB16 DB17 DB18 DB19 DB20 DB21 DB22 DB23 DB24 DB25 DB26 DB27 DB28 DB29 DB30 DB31 DB32 DB33 DB34 DB35 DB36 DB37 DB38 DB39 DB40 DB41 DB42 DB43 DB44 DB45 DB46

denar of North Macedonia: 1 finding

1. European Union Commission (1 finding) EUC

Macedonian denar: 89 findings

1. World Bank (11 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3 WB4 WB5 WB6 WB7 WB8 WB9 WB10 WB11
2. International Monetary Fund (20 findings) IMF1 IMF2 IMF3 IMF4 IMF5 IMF6 IMF7 IMF8 IMF9 IMF10 IMF11 IMF12 IMF13 IMF14 IMF15 IMF16 IMF17 IMF18 IMF19 IMF20
3. European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (1 finding) EBDRD
4. European Training Foundation (3 finding) ETF1 ETF2 ETF3
5. Eurostat (1 finding) EST1
6. Taxation and Customs Union (3 findings) TCU1 TCU2 TCU3
7. OECD Library (1 finding) OECD
8. US Government (3 findings) USG1 USG2 USG3
9. US Embassy in North Macedonia (6 findings) USENM1 USENM2 USENM3 USENM4 USENM5 USENM6
10. Canadian Government (1 finding) Canada.gov
11. UK Government (3 findings) UKG1 UKG2 UKG3
12. Deutsche Bank (1 finding) DB1
13. Bank of Moldova (1 finding) Official exchange rates
14. Bank of Albania (1 finding) Official exchange rate
15. Bank of Slovenia (1 finding) foreign exchange rates
16. Bank of Lithuania (1 finding) Foreign exchange rates
17. BTI Transformation Index (1 finding) Report
18. IBM (1 finding) Emptoris sourcing
19. NASDAQ (3 findings) NASDAQ1 NASDAQ2 NASDAQ3
20. S&P Global (7 findings) S&P1 S&P2 S&P3 S&P4 S&P5 S&P6 S&P7
21. Global Economy (1 finding) Money supply
22. Coinbase (1 finding) currency converter
23. Belt and road (1 finding) source
24. Additional (3 findings in) media: IPN, World Atlas, rekvizitai
25. Google Books (13 findings, 5 of them are written by the same author): book1, book2,book3, book4, book5, book6 book7 book8 book9 book10 book11 book12 book13

Macedonia denar: 2 findings

1. Bloomberg (1 finding) source
2. Mastercard (1 finding) source

denar: 3 findings

1. WorldBank (3 findings) WB1 WB2 WB3

mixed North Macedonian denar and Macedonian denar: 2 findings

1. Central Asia Metals PLC (1 findings) londonstockexchange
2. Lute Credit (2 findings) LC1 LC2

Summary: North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, denar of North Macedonia: 1 finding, Macedonian denar: 89 findings, Macedonia denar: 2 findings, denar: 3 findings Korpalo (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

detailed discussion for the list of reliable sources

This list is obviously skewed and flawed. For example, two of the four you attribute to the Macedonian government ones are "Copyright © 2021 by Standard & Poor’s Financial Services LLC." You have obviously put more effort into finding the "North Macedonian" examples so any supposed totals should be taken with a grain of salt. Also, the EBF example I provided calls the country "Republic of North Macedonia" so it is obviously after the name change. If you were to search for "Macedonian denar", you'd easily find IBM (used in the Emptoris Sourcing Application), the IMF, coinbase, BNP Paribas, Bank of Lithuania, European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, OECD, European Central Bank, Bank of Slovenia, etc. Bonus, some articles: SEENews, MIAnews, IPN, Global Economy, Bloomberg, etc. Not sure what you were looking at with the book results I linked, but here are just some of the ones that say "Macedonian denar": book1, book2, book3, book4, book5, book6, book7, book8, book9, book10, and it goes on and on. All of this is from 2019 to present to suit your arbitrary criteria for what should be considered here. Also, I put this all in paragraph format so as to not make this discussion needlessly long for readers. The current title is the appropriate title for this currency. --Local hero talk 05:14, 8 August 2022 (UTC) The Methodology section of RfC states: Only include links published after February 12, 2019. This is in compliance with the name changes policy which instructs us to give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change is announced. Another interesting aspect of the RfC is the statement that says: Please don't include sources based in North Macedonia or Greece or their respective diaspora communities., and I would propose to do the same here. Some of the links you gave use Macedonian denar in context of history and, for example book2 uses TFYR Macedonian denar which refers to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and Bloomberg says Macedonia denar not Macedonian denar. About European Banking Federation, indeed the page has a publication date "Dec 2020", but Macedonian denar is used in context of history. But I agree the list of reliable sources should be extended by the links you gave. Local hero it would be great if you can provide more links for Macedonian denar because you expressed some concerns about "a skewed and flawed list". So you can support your opinion with arguments, but please make sure that the links you add here don't refer to context of history and really use Macedonian denar. I agree that this list is currently incomplete, which is confirmed by the fact that the list has been updated multiple times, and I found more links that report North Macedonian denar which are not included already, e.g., from Financial Times. I also agree that the documents reported as North Macedonian Government are only published by the Government of North Macedonia. Korpalo May I ask you to add these new links in the list of reliable sources and make all the necessary changes suggested by Local hero and me (the comment of reliable sources has your signature and I shouldn't modify it myself)? Thanks for your time. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) book2 literally calls the state "North Macedonia" and uses a population figure from 2020, it's obviously post-name change. Yes Bloomberg uses Macedonia denar. The EBF is discussing 2019 which is post-name change (the page obviously calls the state North Macedonia). I provided a couple dozen links there supporting "Macedonian denar", feel free to re-read if you like. We could go on searching for links forever; there will not be any ability to demonstrate that "North Macedonian denar" has become the clear favorite term in reliable sources. The best course of action here is to simply add also known as North Macedonian denar to the lead sentence (and maybe "North Macedonia denar" and "Macedonia denar"). --Local hero talk 14:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC) Thanks for your help. I added the sources, and let me explain you here step-by-step: book5 was already included as "book2", book10 is written by a Professor in North Macedonia, and book1 is written by a native of North Macedonia as stated in google books and cannot be included due to the methodology that is the same with that of RfC (suggested by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας) that excludes sources from North Macedonia (and Greece) and its diaspora. book3 refers to TFYR Macedonian denar, not Macedonian denar (perhaps this is what was meant by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας, and not book2. Unfortunately for book2 I get the message "No preview available" and I cannot search either, are you sure is still available? book4 refers to historical context, "In 2018, ...", as already explained. book7 says "No preview available for this page" and the only thing I can see is "Macedonia Skopje Macedonian Denar Macedonian", which can be anything, e.g., Country, Capital, Nationality, Currency, Language, or it can be reference to historical context. I am happy to add book2 and book7 if another user can confirm that Macedonian denar is reported (I cannot see it myself). book6 and book9 look good, and book8 seems to talk about the past, but I included it in the list because it uses the new name of the country. I included the other reliable sources under Macedonian denar, with two exceptions, BNP Paribas which doesn't have a publication date and the old name of the country indicates that is not after 2019, and European Central Bank because the last page indicates that the text was written more than a decade ago, in 2005, although there is a recent date on the very first page. Nothing else indicates that the text was written recently, maybe it was re-published recently, and all the data look old, so it can be historical context too. If you see another date in the text, I will add it but I cannot find one. I moved all the sources from North Macedonia at the top and added the source of MIAnews there, and I also rephrased sources published by the Government of North Macedonia, because indeed the documents are only published by the government not written by the government. Korpalo (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support . As per the Methodology section of RfC and Korpalo provided links . Weatherextremes (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

This is not a vote, so please provide rationale rather than an empty statement supporting the move because "Korpalo provided links"... I also provided links. --Local hero ^talk 16:18, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I did. I think those links have more merit than yours. Weatherextremes (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Oppose I view that Local hero's links have more merit. The article could be modified to state that 'North Macedonian denar' is also used in some cases. Quite frankly. in the RfC the term "Macedonian denar" is more frequently used. Or the name could change to 'Denar (MKD)' or simply 'Denar' despite it being against the precedent, since it's after all both the official and most commonly used name. Kluche (talk) 17:11, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

outdated "Macedonian denar" list; please see User:Local hero/sandbox for up-to-date "Macedonian denar" list

This seems to be turning into a who-has-more-time-to-scour-the-web discussion. So, here we go for "Macedonian denar", all post-Prespa agreement: International organizations World Bank; uses "North Macedonia" as country name and "Macedonian denar" as currency name World Bank p.21; country name Rep. of North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars World Bank; 6 March 2019; country name North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars World Bank; country metadata shows North Macedonia with Macedonian denar currency World Bank p.5; 5 Nov 2019, country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar World Bank p.21; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar World Bank p.ix and p.55; country name North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar World Bank Social Insurance Administration Project; 14 Jan 2020 World Bank p.2,3,49; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar World Bank 22 Aug 2019; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar World Bank p.ii,35; 17 Nov 2020; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar International Monetary Fund; 28 Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Exchange Rates International Monetary Fund; country North Macedonia, click "i" for Macedonian currency info ("Macedonian denar") International Monetary Fund [1] [2] [3]; 11 July 2022; Technical Assistance Report (download file for "Macedonian denar") International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus International investment position International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Depository corporations survey International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Central bank survey International Monetary Fund; The Great Lockdown p.118; Apr 2020 International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Coordinated Direct Investment Survey International Monetary Fund; April 2021; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar International Monetary Fund; Oct 2019; Global Manufacturing Downturn, Rising Trade Barriers; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar International Monetary Fund; Oct 2020; A Long and Difficult Ascent; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar International Monetary Fund; WEO Database Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2021 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2021 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2022 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook Apr 2021 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Apr 2020 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2020 Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Agro-ecological atlas of the Republic of North Macedonia p.v; 23 Jan 2020 European Central Bank 16 Nov 2020 European Central Bank North Macedonia: Small Business Act profile Eurostat; European business statistics compilers’ manual for international trade in good statistics - trade by invoicing currency; 2022 edition European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2022 European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2021 European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2020 European Central Bank, Euro Exchange (Figure 3), Apr 2022 European Central Bank, Appendix Exchange Rates (Table 1 and Figure1a-1d), 15 Feb 2022 European Central Bank, Exchange Rates (click "Full Article"), 2020 European Central Bank Reference Metadata; “Last update 25 April 2022” European Training Foundation; North Macedonia Education Training and Employment Developments 2020 European Training Foundation; Policies For Human Capital Development North Macedonia European Central Bank; 16 Nov 2020; Reporting instructions for the electronic transmission of Short-Term European Paper (STEP) statistics European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar European Central Bank datasets: [4] [5] [6] [7] [8], and dozens more (date published unknown, however the ECB does mark pages "discontinued" example and these are not marked as such) European Central Bank; 2020 Facts and Figures World Health Organization copyright WHO 2020, of three authors one is Macedonian OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191,1449 OECD; 2019 North Macedonia profile [9] [10] United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief World Bank; prepared by the Independent Evaluation Group (IEG) of the World Bank Group; uses "North Macedonia" and "Macedonian denar" (predates the official name change although the terminology is correct today) Foreign governments UK.gov Money UK.gov Safety & Security UK.gov Euro Exchange Rates; 15 Dec 2021/6 May 2022 Bank of Albania Bank of Lithuania Bank of Moldova Bank of Slovenia CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile PrivacyShield.gov US Dept of State [11]; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia US Embassy Information on Disposition of Remains; April 2020 US adult Passport renewal US child Passport renewal US Country Commercial Guides; North Macedonia 2019 US Ambassadors Fund for Cultural Preservation; 2022 CIA The World Factbook Exchange Rates; country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian denars Sandia.gov US Embassy [12] Immigrant visa interview US Embassy; US govt RFQ US Embassy; US govt RFQ Securities and Exchange Commission; 31 Dec 2020 Canada.gov; North Macedonia travel advice Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23 [4 2; UK Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022 [also uses "North Macedonia denar" (no -n)] Business IBM Emptoris Sourcing NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019 NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Apr 2020 NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019 Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020 Coinbase BNP Paribas (website is active) Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar S&P Global; Austrian insurer acquires 100% of North Macedonia’s Eurolink; 30 Mar 2020 S&P Global; North Macedonia's Komercijalna Banka expects profit drop amid COVID-19 pandemic; 2 Feb 2021 S&P Global; North Macedonia's central bank cancels Eurostandard Banka's license; 13 Aug 2020 S&P Global; Methodology Updates CSA 2021; 9 hits for Macedonian denar S&P Global; MNX Test Company; 2022 S&P Global; BNK Test Company; 2022 S&P Global; CSV Test Company; 2022 Hong Kong Trade Development Council; North Macedonia country profile The Globe and Mail [13]; Euro/Macedonian Denar The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020 The Globe and Mail [14]; Macedonian Denar/U.S. Dollar The Globe and Mail [15]; Macedonian Denar/British Pound Business Insider Visa B2B Payment Controls Master Codes Verslo Žinios (Lithuanian) CNET [16]; 26 Jul 2020 application CNET; 8 Aug 2020 application CNET; 22 June 2020 application CNET; 22 June 2020 application CNET; 22 June 2020 application CNET; 4 Jan 2020 application CNET; 29 Sep 2020 application CNET; 16 July 2020 application Deutsche Bank; Currency list last updated 20 July 2022 (uses former name of National Bank, but is nonetheless updated post-name change date) BTI Transformation Index country profile; insource The Global Economy; insource Bloomberg (Macedonia denar) Mastercard (Macedonia denar) Other Books Political Handbook of the World 2020-2021 (SAGE Publishing) p.1239 Dark Finance (Stanford University Press) Foreign Direct Investment in the Successor States of Yugoslavia (Springer International Publishing) p.164 Rajasthan PSC (RPSC) - Public Relations Officer (PRO) 2020 p.346 General Knowledge 2020-Competitive Exam Book 2021 p.466 The Military Balance 2021 The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) p.48 CBSE Junior Assistant 2020 p.268 Young People and the Belt and Road：Opportunities and Challenges in Central and Eastern Europe p.18 BCECEB Bihar AMIN 2020 p.262 Geopolitical Risk, Sustainability and "Cross-Border Spillovers" in Emerging Markets, Volume II (Palgrave Macmillan) p.68 NABARD Assistant Manager (Grade A & B) Prelims Examination (per preview, country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian Denar) RBI Officer Grade B (Phase 1) Vol -1 2021 p.477 (post-Prespa agreement) Managing Diabetes in Low Income Countries (Springer International Publishing) p.xii (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian) North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5 (author is Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian but probably did not perform much review) Other IPN Press Agency; Moldovan; insource The Christian Post; insource World Atlas; insource Xinhua News Agency; North Macedonia country, Macedonian denars Michigan State University US Commercial Service North Macedonia USA Swimming (currency drop-down) Common Sense Media (currency drop-down) The Economist (currency drop-down) Balkan Heritage Field School; North Macedonia (Bulgarian) SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian) SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian) International firms with local presence in N. Macedonia World Bank audit report by Moore Stephens Grant Thornton audit report, p.42,43,44 World Bank Moore Stephens p.9,10 Moore Stephens p.9,10,17 USAID, report by Macedonian team European Commission, prepared by Macedonian(s) European Commission, prepared by Macedonian(s) European Banking Federation North Macedonia profile; contributor is Macedonian Can we now agree that there has been *no definitive switch* to "North Macedonian denar", but still adjust the lead sentence to provide "North Macedonian denar" as an alternative name? --Local hero talk 04:52, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

detailed discussion for the list of reliable sources

This looks more like a spam than a list of reliable sources. Most of these links are included in the list of reliable sources maintained by Korpalo. Some other links are before 2019 (for example, World Bank which is the second link of your list). Some other are written by nationals of North Macedonia that cannot be included in the list according to the methodology of RfC, (for example, North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5). You include multiple references to Macedonian denar in the same document multiple times to make your list look loooooonger (for example OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191, and OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.1449). You report 19 times the same link from Unicef although Macedonian denar is not mentioned at all in the text. Macedonian denar is ONLY in the list of currencies, but as you may know, this list is automatically taken from a database. Multiple pages of Unicef with no reference to Macedonian denar have no value. One of them is enough, and perhaps even that currency list doesn't indicate that Unicef uses Macedonian denar, since these codes are defined by IT companies (like the currency codes of IBM Emptoris Sourcing which are used by many applications), and Unicef has no control over it. It's like you report random pages that use google maps to make a point that the country is called North Macedonia; the correct interpretation is that Google uses the name North Macedonia, all the other pages have no control over it. Since you include links from Businesses, I found some other links from businesses published by NASDAQ link1 link2, Avaron Emerging Europe Fund PROSPECTUS, Liberty Adriatic link, Invest in See link, BDO Australia link, TITAN Global link. Korpalo Thanks for the great work you have done. I carefully checked the links from IMF and the Worldbank, and they should be added it in the list of reliable sources you maintain. Perhaps there are some more links that should be added. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) That World Bank source calls the country Republic of North Macedonia but still calls the currency Macedonian denar so it is valid. The travel guide author is presumably Macedonian (just noted that above), though the publisher is not. So, if you wish to exclude it feel free. I'll then note that your BDO source is also presumably written by a Macedonian, so this becomes tedious. And yes I listed each reference in each source, as you point out with the OECD example. Korpalo is also counting each hit as I understand, not each source. Regarding the UNICEF pages, it lists Macedonian denar on each one, so I included them. You found more links... me too: NASDAQ, NASDAQ, NASDAQ, Lute Credit, S&P Global, S&P Global, and more hits that I've just found from this site. Or perhaps you'll try to dismiss these as "spam". Just because I'm finding a lot doesn't make it spam. Do you now realize that we could keep doing this indefinitely? I will continue to find hits for "Macedonian denar" and perhaps the three of you on the opposing side will continue to find hits for your preferred term. No clear change in preference from Macedonian denar to "North" will be proven. So, I'll propose again that we simply add the alternate name to the lead sentence. --Local hero talk 14:47, 9 August 2022 (UTC) No, OF COURSE, I don't count every hit, every page I report may have more than one results of "XYZ" but are reported only once. I don't report more than one times pages/documents that may be found in different formats. For example, I will report THIS, BUT NOT THIS and NOT THIS EITHER. In this case I report ONLY the source because the text is identical. Another example, I report THIS, BUT NOT THIS because they are the same. I don't think the slides of BDO (from Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας) is reliable source. I didn't included it in the list. Sorry for that Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας. The CNET links from Local hero don't show anything related to denar to me. Is CNET a reliable source? I don't think so. The boundaries of what is a reliable source are flexible, but those two I would doubt are reliable. We cannot report a menu where you choose the currency, because this is not always/necessarily an option of the publisher rather than an option of the company that provides the software. All the Unicef sources you reported are essentially one single source, and in my opinion we should not go to this direction of unreliable sources, because the name of the currency in the menu is chosen by an external company instead of Unicef. Unicef is a reliable source but not the external company that makes the menu. Did you notice that the sources Moore Stephens and World Bank Moore Stephens are from a company based in Skopje, North Macedonia (www.moore.mk)? Did you notice that World Bank is the same with the first source of Moore (DUPLICATE SOURCE)? The government of North Macedonia is involved in Grant Thornton too. All these documents are biased. In World Bank p.21, there is no publication date and the country is called Macedonia on the first slide. The CNET links don't show anything related to denar to me. Is CNET a reliable source? I didn't check all your sources, but most of those I checked are SPAM. I will really appreciate if you can DOUBLE-CHECK all the sources you report, DON'T REPORT DUPLICATES, DELETE all the sources of your list that I have already added in the list of reliable sources, and then I am happy to include all your CORRECT sources in the list of reliable sources. If there is any doubt whether a source is okay or not, you are more than welcome to ask. Thanks for your help. Korpalo (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:37, 9 August 2022 (UTC) CNET is considered generally reliable. If you want to make a donation to UNICEF with the Macedonian currency, it is called Macedonian denars, that's really the bottom line. If you want to consider all of those as one example, fine. I have included no spam and I also have yet to go through your North Macedonian findings to confirm those. I'll go back through and explain why each one is valid and if it's not I'll remove it from my list. You seem to avoid my main question here and prefer to go the route of hunting for links endlessly. The three of you are quick to dismiss my findings, but nonetheless you can see there are plenty of sources for Macedonian denar. Thus, why can we not just add "North Macedonian denar" to the lead sentence as an alternate name? --Local hero talk 21:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Well, all the sources of CNET are about applications and Macedonian denar or dinar is reported under "developer's description". The developer of an app is not a reliable source. Nope, we cannot include the menu with the currency that shows up in every website that you can pay in different currencies. Otherwise, we would have to explore millions/thousands of websites (that offer payment in MKD) although all of them go under the umbrella of a limited number of software options, which would not add any value to our research. I would prefer to focus more on the quality of the sources we provide rather than trying to include some potentially unreliable sources. This will allows us to have a correct conclusion. Thanks for your contribution. Korpalo (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:28, 9 August 2022 (UTC) Local hero You are trying to cheat by reporting duplicated documents, old documents, and links that do not report anything about denar in a way to enlarge your spam list Macedonian denar in the CIA links refer to the past,CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile CIA The World Factbook, and this is clear from sentences such as note: data are in 2017 dollars; Macedonia has a large informal sector that may not be reflected in these data, which use the old name. The Treasury.gov link doesn't include any Macedonian denar, only Rep. of N Macedonia-Dinar. The links of US adult Passport renewal and US child Passport renewal don't have a publication date and the name of the country is not used to indicate that is after 12.02.2019. US Embassy Immigrant visa interview, and US Dept of State travel are the same. US Dept of State; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia and US Dept of State Human Rights Report; 2020 or later are the same. In Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23; UK, the country is the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, which indicates not update. NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar does not have a publication or the name of the country reported. Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020 uses the name Macedonia for the country and the data are from 2018 and 2019; not evidence that is up-to-date. Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar, reports mixed Macedonian denar and North Macedonian denar From the 6 links of S&P Global, only 1 is valid (number 11). I don't see anything about denar in number 10, and number 12, 13, 14, 15 does not have any result of "North Macedonia", indicating that the document is old or not up-to-date. The copyright 2022 is a different thing that the day the text was written. From the Globe and Mail list, they are all the same comparing MKD with USD, GBP, and EUR. Of course, we can generate 1000 links for the same. The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020 refers to data of 2019 and 2019, and in that case Macedonian denar is expected to be used. per Korpalo for all the 8 links of CNET, developer's description is not reliable source, and in addition to that, there is no evidence that the application was developed/updated after renaming the country to North Macedonia Links with a list of currencies such as Sandia.gov is not reliable source, and all the 19 links of United Nations crisis relief. 8 links of CNET + 19 links of the currency list = 27 links of clear spam In response to your comment in book North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5 (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian) I will add here what is online: North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 will help you plan your trip to this beautiful country in the Balkans. The guide book contains up to the date information about local cuisine, transportation, interesting places to visit, accomodation options, security and the history of North Macedonia. Written by a native who has tons of useful knowledge, North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 is a handy and useful passport to the best in North Macedonia! Do you still think the author is not from North Macedonia and Google books report the author as a native? Should we trust you or Google books? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας (talk • contribs) 07:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Most of the remaining and valid links of your list are already included in the list of reliable sources maintained by Korpalo. If you think there is some link that is valid, with publication date, and comes from a reliable source, please add it here to make the addition to the list of reliable sources easier. We cannot go every day through your whole spam list to see if there is any valuable links that we should consider. I spend enough time every day just reading your links, and please respect the time spent by Korpalo to update the list of reliable sources with your links. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) The CIA World Factbook North Macedonia country page was “last updated: Aug 02, 2022”. Whether they choose to update exchange rates or not, the page is considered updated. The exchange rates page has the country name “North Macedonia” and the currency as “Macedonian denars”. Thus, both links are valid. You’re right about treasury.gov, removed it. The US Embassy in North Macedonia is in the heading of the passport application pages. There is no date given otherwise, but this is the page individuals will find when seeking to apply for a passport and, within it, they are told that they can pay in “Macedonian denars”. Fixed the visa interview and human rights duplicates, thanks. Regarding UK student loans page, this may surprise you but not everyone cared to update the country name to “North Macedonia” everywhere. Yes, you can still find “Macedonia” and “FYROM” in places in 2022. This is one such example. Additionally, the currency is shown as “Macedonian denar”, so it’s valid here. Not sure why you would expect a date on the NASDAQ glossary. The webpage is clearly not an archive, it is available to anyone searching the active NASDAQ glossary. The Financial Times page is for the year-ended 2019. Again, whether or not they choose to update the country name is on them. The fact of the matter is this 2019 report, published in April 2020, uses “Macedonian denar”. The years for the S&P Global ones are literally in the page headers. For #10, sorry it was the wrong link, fixed. Not sure why it’s wrong to include each different page from the Globe and Mail. The name change occurred in the beginning of 2019 FYI. The applications from CNET have dates given. Sandia.gov is a US govt site, it’s reliable. I’ll de-number the North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020. Thank you. --Local hero talk 19:01, 10 August 2022 (UTC) Local hero, I reviewed all the sources you reported, and updated the list of reliable sources, for every source I added a comment to say ADDED or to explain the reason that was not added. I reviewed the list without having the most recent edits of you because reviewing took me days and it was hard to get every update of you. In the beginning of the list of reliable sources, I add an explanation of the criteria for adding a source in the list. If you think I have missed a NEW document, for which there is no explanation in this list, and only if you are absolutely sure that the source fulfils the criteria, then I will be happy to include your source in the list of reliable sources. But make sure that you don't give me spam. International organizations: (ADDED) World Bank; uses "North Macedonia" as country name and "Macedonian denar" as currency name (Date Dec 20, 2018) World Bank; prepared by the Independent Evaluation Group (IEG) of the World Bank Group; uses "North Macedonia" and "Macedonian denar" (ADDED) World Bank p.21; country name Rep. of North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars (ADDED) World Bank; 6 March 2019; country name North Macedonia, currency name Macedonian denars (ADDED) World Bank; country metadata shows North Macedonia with Macedonian denar currency (ADDED) World Bank p.5; 5 Nov 2019, country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED)World Bank p.21; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED) World Bank p.ix and p.55; country name North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED) World Bank p.2,3,49; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED)World Bank 22 Aug 2019; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED)World Bank p.ii,35; 17 Nov 2020; country Republic of North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED)International Monetary Fund; 28 Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Exchange Rates (ADDED)International Monetary Fund; country North Macedonia, click "i" for Macedonian currency info ("Macedonian denar") (ADDED) International Monetary Fund [17] [18] [19]; 11 July 2022; Technical Assistance Report (download file for "Macedonian denar") (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus International investment position (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Depository corporations survey (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Central bank survey (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; The Great Lockdown p.118; Apr 2020 (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus Coordinated Direct Investment Survey (No results found) International Monetary Fund; April 2020; Request For Purchase Under The Rapid Financing Instrument (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; April 2021; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (No results found)International Monetary Fund; Jan 2022; Special Data Dissemination Standard Plus National Accounts (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Oct 2019; Global Manufacturing Downturn, Rising Trade Barriers; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar (ADDED) International Monetary Fund; Oct 2020; A Long and Difficult Ascent; North Macedonia, Macedonian denar (ADDED) Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Agro-ecological atlas of the Republic of North Macedonia p.v; 23 Jan 2020 (16.11.2020 is the date on the first page, but Macedonian denar is reported in the end of the document and the date there is 16.08.2005, Macedonia or North Macedonia is not reported) European Central Bank 16 Nov 2020 (At the bottom it reports a Macedonian contributor "Contributor: Milena Perchinkova milena.perchinkova@mba.mk")European Banking Federation; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDED) European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (Duplicated link: same with the link below) OECD North Macedonia profile, currency is Macedonian denar (ADDED) OECD Competitiveness and Private Sector Development Competitiveness in South East Europe 2021 p.191,1449 (UN and any other webpage/business/organization don't intentionally choose the currency drop-down menu that shows the currencty for each country, the IBM source confirms that there are some default values determined by external companies, reporting the IBM source is sufficient) United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief, United Nations crisis relief Foreign governments (ADDED) UK.gov (ADDED) Bank of Albania (ADDED) Bank of Lithuania (ADDED) Bank of Moldova (ADDED) Bank of Slovenia (No results found) Treasury.gov; 19 Oct 2020 (The document is updated, but Macedonian denar is used only in historical context confirmed by the dates) CIA the World Factbook; North Macedonia country profile (ADDED) PrivacyShield.gov (ADDED) US Dept of State [20]; 2020 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices: North Macedonia (ADDED) US Embassy Information on Disposition of Remains; April 2020 (Nothing indicates the page was updated after 2019, the name North Macedonia on the heading sentence is stable for the whole webpage) US adult Passport renewal Nothing indicates the page was updated after 2019, the name North Macedonia on the heading sentence is stable for the whole webpage)US child Passport renewal (ADDED) US Ambassadors Fund for Cultural Preservation; 2022 The document is updated, but Macedonian denar is used only in historical context confirmed by the dates)CIA The World Factbook Exchange Rates; country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian denars (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation)Sandia.gov (ADDED) US Embassy [21] Immigrant visa interview (ADDED) US Embassy; US govt RFQ (ADDED) US Embassy; US govt RFQ (ADDED) Securities and Exchange Commission; 31 Dec 2020 (ADDED) Canada.gov; North Macedonia travel advice (The country is reported only as Macedonia (Former Yugoslav Republic)) Overseas earnings thresholds for Plan 1 student loans, 2022-23; UK Business (ADDED) IBM Emptoris Sourcing (Neither publication date nor the country name is reported) NASDAQ, glossary for MKD - Macedonian denar (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019 (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Apr 2020 (ADDED) NASDAQ; North Macedonia updated Mar 2019 (The country is reported as Macedonia) Financial Times; 20 Apr 2020 (borderline, ADDED) Coinbase (Neither publication date nor the country name is reported) BNP Paribas (website is active) (ADDED, mixed findings of Macedonian denar and North Macedonian denar)Lute Credit prospectus, p.10; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar (ADDDED) S&P Global; North Macedonia's Komercijalna Banka expects profit drop amid COVID-19 pandemic; 2 Feb 2021 (ADDED) S&P Global; North Macedonia's central bank cancels Eurostandard Banka's license; 13 Aug 2020 (ADDED) S&P Global; Methodology Updates CSA 2021; 9 hits for Macedonian denar (ADDED)S&P Global; MNX Test Company; 2022 (ADDED)S&P Global; BNK Test Company; 2022 (ADDED)S&P Global; CSV Test Company; 2022 (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [22]; Euro/Macedonian Denar (Reference to old data) The Globe and Mail; Jan 2020 (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [23]; Macedonian Denar/U.S. Dollar (Real-time update of currency rates retrieved by external company) The Globe and Mail [24]; Macedonian Denar/British Pound (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET [25]; 26 Jul 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 8 Aug 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 22 June 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 4 Jan 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 29 Sep 2020 application (Developer's Description is not a reliable source) CNET; 16 July 2020 application (ADDED) BTI Transformation Index country profile; insource (ADDED) The Global Economy; insource (ADDED) Bloomberg (Macedonia denar) Other Books (No preview available) Political Handbook of the World 2020-2021 (SAGE Publishing) p.1239 (Macedonian denar used only once in clear historical context, confirmed by the only 7 results of North Macedonia and 99 results of Macedonia used in references to the past) Dark Finance (Stanford University Press) (ADDED) Foreign Direct Investment in the Successor States of Yugoslavia (Springer International Publishing) p.164 (ADDED) Rajasthan PSC (RPSC) - Public Relations Officer (PRO) 2020 p.346 (The only result is "Macedonia Skopje Macedonian Denar Macedonian", which can be anything, e.g., Country, Capital, Nationality, Currency, Language, or it can be reference to historical context.) General Knowledge 2020-Competitive Exam Book 2021 p.466 (ADDED) The Military Balance 2021 The International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) p.48 (ADDED) CBSE Junior Assistant 2020 p.268 (ADDED) Young People and the Belt and Road：Opportunities and Challenges in Central and Eastern Europe p.18 (ADDED) BCECEB Bihar AMIN 2020 p.262 (ADDED) Geopolitical Risk, Sustainability and "Cross-Border Spillovers" in Emerging Markets, Volume II (Palgrave Macmillan) p.68 (ADDED) NABARD Assistant Manager (Grade A & B) Prelims Examination (per preview, country is North Macedonia, currency is Macedonian Denar) (ADDED) RBI Officer Grade B (Phase 1) Vol -1 2021 p.477 (post-Prespa agreement) (The authors is from North Macedonia) Managing Diabetes in Low Income Countries (Springer International Publishing) p.xii (author is likely Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian) (The authors is from North Macedonia) North Macedonia Travel Guide 2020 p.5 (author is Macedonian; publisher is not Macedonian but probably did not perform much review) Other (ADDED) IPN Press Agency; Moldovan; insource (Clear historical context "I’ve collected from the many countries I’ve visited?") The Christian Post; insource (ADDED) World Atlas; insource (I cannot open the link) Xinhua News Agency; North Macedonia country, Macedonian denars (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) USA Swimming (currency drop-down) (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) Common Sense Media (currency drop-down) (Currency drop-down menus are not reliable source per UN explanation) The Economist (currency drop-down) (The authors is from North Macedonia, confirmed by linkedin) SEE News (author is likely Macedonian; site is not Macedonian) International firms with local presence in N. Macedonia (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019) World Bank audit report by Moore Stephens (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)Grant Thornton audit report, p.42,43,44 (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)World Bank Moore Stephens p.9,10 (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)Moore Stephens p.9,10,17 (Based in North Macedonia against methodology used by RfC 2019)USAID, report by Macedonian team Korpalo (talk) 20:44, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Comment Local hero enough with your spam list. 80% of your links violate the methodology of the reliable sources' list. You added the link Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022, which clarifies with the best possible way North Macedonia denar (until 11 February 2019: Macedonian denar) that the currency was called Macedonian denar and the change took effect only after the new name of the country. I should remind two main problems: Local hero should read the documents s/he adds in the list to avoid making it a spam list (Don't include the document of Deutsche Bundesbank as evidence of Macedonian denar, this document is the best possible evidence that the currency was called Macedonian denar but not anymore), and we should all be very careful with the links added in the list of reliable sources. Any reference to data before 2019 are expected to use "Macedonian denar" as this was the currency. Any reference of a mix of old and new data in the same page/sentence isn't evidence that Macedonian denar is used. It's only evidence that Macedonian denar WAS the common name of the currency before 2019. I am fine with including links of not very clear cases, but the links in the list of reliable source should present the information in a meaningful scientific way. Another aspect is that the first North Macedonian denar was released in 2020. If we want to be very precise and strict and improve the quality of the list, we should take into account that parameter too. Local hero most of the links you added in the last 24 hours don't have a publication date, refer to data from the past, or refer to mixed data. If you keep doing that, I will stop looking at your links. The more random links you add the more evidence you provide that you have run out of links, and you provide random links to enlarge your "spam list", which adds no value, and reduces your reputation. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(talk) It shouldn't surprise anyone if either of the single-purpose accounts try to dismiss ~130+ links. We have yet to receive input from non-Greek (all 3 supporters) and non-Macedonian (the one opposer) editors. The Deutsche Bundesbank link clearly states "Macedonian denar" and "North Macedonia denar"; *both* are evidence against the proposed move here. You are essentially trying to narrow the goalposts here by now suggesting to exclude a full year of the new-name-period (2019) and claiming a "mixed data" issue. The solid majority of what I've provided name the country "North Macedonia" or provide a publication date 2019 or later. Whether some sites did or did not update how they term the denar, the fact of the matter is *they are using "Macedonian denar" today in 2022* (in what I've provided); thus, evidence against the proposed move here. --Local hero talk 14:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC) Your ~130+ links is an add-only list; you never remove from it, you only add. It's surprising that Treasury.gov; 19 Oct 2020 is still in your ~130+ spam list (maybe you dismiss that there is no result for Macedonian denar in that source). You still include sources based in North Macedonia that are against the methodology used by RfC. The list of reliable sources now includes all the valid sources of your list, and I gave you a detailed explanation for those excluded in my ~130+ long list of explanations above. How can you accuse me of dismissing your ~130+ links while I made you a comment for each individual of these ~130+ links? I spent about 10 hours to review them. Who excludes a full year? The Deutsche Bundesbank document says that the name of the currency was Macedonian denar before February 12, 2019, and North Macedonia denar after that date, namely after the day the country was renamed to North Macedonia. I suppose you got confused and you don't try to mislead other users with your untrue statements. Everybody who has eyes can read the Deutsche Bundesbank source and judge us. Other editors will judge us based on our true reliable sources. Claims are unimportant. Korpalo (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2022 (UTC) No, I have removed a few duplicates the other used had pointed out, so I have indeed been updating it. I've kept a separate section for the sources based on N. Macedonia-based subsidiaries of international firms, so these can be easily included or excluded. Thanks for reviewing the links, I'll go through and see if there are any you missed (I suspect there are several). Then, I'll review your "North Macedonian" ones. As I already explained about the Bundesbank source, it provides the legal currency as "Macedonian denar", as "everybody who has eyes" can see. Regardless, the source is *evidence against the proposed move* for which this discussion exists because there is *no mention of North Macedonian denar*. --Local hero talk 02:29, 12 August 2022 (UTC) Alright regarding my international organizations links, I de-numbered the one WB one that is technically pre-official name change even though it uses "North Macedonia". I removed the two IMF ones you pointed out. You did miss one IMF one and I also added 10 more IMF ones to my list (here are those ones for convenience): World Bank Social Insurance Administration Project; 14 Jan 2020 International Monetary Fund; WEO Database Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2021 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Oct 2021 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2022 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2021 International Monetary Fund; Statistical Appendix; Apr 2020 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Oct 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2019 International Monetary Fund; World Economic Outlook; Apr 2020 Regarding the ECB links, you get the "16.08.2005" date from Appendix II; the currencies are listed in Appendix I. The document date is 16 Nov 2020. Valid reference. However, the other does appear to be credited to a Macedonian so I moved it to that section of my list. You missed 15+ ECB links and I added another ECB link (here, for your convenience): European Central Bank; 2020 Facts and Figures European Central Bank North Macedonia: Small Business Act profile Eurostat; European business statistics compilers’ manual for international trade in good statistics - trade by invoicing currency; 2022 edition European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2022 European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2021 European Central Bank, Value Limits 1 Jan 2020 European Central Bank, Euro Exchange (Figure 3), Apr 2022 European Central Bank, Appendix Exchange Rates (Table 1 and Figure1a-1d), 15 Feb 2022 European Central Bank, Exchange Rates (click "Full Article"), 2020 European Central Bank Reference Metadata; “Last update 25 April 2022” European Training Foundation; North Macedonia Education Training and Employment Developments 2020 European Training Foundation; Policies For Human Capital Development North Macedonia European Central Bank; 16 Nov 2020; Reporting instructions for the electronic transmission of Short-Term European Paper (STEP) statistics European Bank for Reconstruction and Development; country North Macedonia, currency Macedonian denar European Central Bank datasets: [26] [27] [28] [29] [30], and dozens more (date published unknown, however the ECB does mark pages "discontinued" example and these are not marked as such) World Health Organization copyright WHO 2020, of three authors one is Macedonian The OECD links are indeed duplicates. I added the following OECD link to my list (here, for your convenience): OECD; 2019 North Macedonia profile [31] [32] I continue to disagree about the currencies listed at UNICEF and other sites. If I wish to donate to UNICEF, they give me the option of donating in "Macedonian denars", not "North Macedonian denars". We're discussing the use of "North Macedonian denar" compared to the current page title. I'll go through more next. --Local hero talk 03:45, 12 August 2022 (UTC) Thanks for your sources, I have added all of them with some exceptions: (9) from IMF was already in the list, (1) from ECB says "Contributor: ....@mba.mk" based in North Macedonia, (7,8,9 and 10) from ECBF says the data are from 2010 to 2021 (reference to the past), confirmed by (10) which says "Macedonian denar" when refers to the past, and uses "denar (of North Macedonia) in the table", (11 and 12) form ETF has the same paragraph that reports Macedonian denar, borderline case, I added both, (13) from ECB, Page 27 has a date "2005-06-20" and Page 32 has a date "2005-08-16", Macedonian denar shows up between these pages, (14) from EBRD already included, (36-40) from ECB, none of them reports the country name to help us understand if it's up to date, in (16) from WHO, the second author is from North Macedonia confirmed by linkedin. The OECD link looks like a chapter of book2, but I cannot confirm. I added it in the list of reliable sources. Korpalo (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC) I removed the duplicate IMF you pointed out, de-numbered the ECB one with a mk email and the one with the 2005 dates (though I didn't see a date for the currency list). Yes you already had EBRD included, apologies. One of the authors of the WHO source is Macedonian but the other two are not, I think that's fair game. The ECBF data begins in 2010 but extends into 2021, as you state, thus it covers our period of scope here. --Local hero talk 04:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support for North Macedonian denar is obvious since I created the Move Request. It's important though to explain the reasons for my support. There is significant and indisputable evidence that North Macedonian denar has become a WP:COMMONNAME confirmed by the list of reliable sources created by two equally motivated users (thanks both of you), the one of which supports and the other opposes this move request, and by using the same methodology used in RfC. Whether North Macedonian denar is more common than Macedonian denar may still be debated. As a mathematician, in the end of the day we cannot prove which of the two is the most common one. We will have only indications. For this reason, I will not stick to the numbers of the reliable sources, I look at the trend of them. Within only the short period of three years after the name change, the new name North Macedonian denar is already used equally (or more often) than Macedonian denar. Aditional reliable sources use North Macedonia denar or denar of North Macedonia. All these facts show that the qualifier used for denar is in line with the new name of the country (North is included), and in most of these cases they use the adjectival reference North Macedonian. This is in line with the policy followed in wikipedia for the currency names of other countries. I don't see any reason to avoid North Macedonian denar given that the term is already well-established based on reliable sources. North Macedonian denar satisfies more requirements than Macedonian denar:

• none of them satisfies the WP:OFFICIALNAME, since the official name is denar
• both of them satisfy the WP:COMMONNAME, and we cannot prove what is the most common name (currently 100 results for North Macedonian denar and 65 results for Macedonian denar)
• WP:MOSMAC states that for state-associated entities the longer form North Macedonian is recommended, whether this applies to the currency may be debated by a user who wants to oppose this move request, but nothing in WP:MOSMAC indicates that Macedonian denar should be preferred
• North Macedonian denar is in line with the country's new name used in wikipedia, Macedonian denar is not
• North Macedonian denar is in line with the policy followed for the currency names of other countries in wikipedia, Macedonian denar is not

Overall, North Macedonian denar has no drawback compared to Macedonian denar, and Macedonian denar has no advantage over North Macedonian denar. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k) 07:48, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support. I base my support on the main findings of the present discussion for the requested move:

• The most important argument for updating the title of this article is uniformity at the level of countries for titles of articles about currencies. For countries other than that at hand, the adjectival reference that precedes the name of their currency directly corresponds to the full name of the country. For instance, the name “South Sudanese pound” is used to refer to the currency of South Sudan. Since the name of the country at hand has recently changed, the title of the article of its currency should also change to reflect the former change.
• Moreover, based on the list of reliable sources that has been jointly compiled both by contributors for and against the requested move, terms including the adjective “North” are already significantly more common than those without, and this despite the ever present inertia in the usage of past terms (as the one used in the present title) over newly introduced terms (as the one proposed in the requested move) when the context is unofficial. Wikipedia should therefore reflect this change now and not take sides by persisting on the current title.

Due to the lengthy character of the present discussion, I would also like to draw again the attention of readers to the fact that an objective list of sources, containing reviewed sources from both sides and adhering to the relevant Wikipedia policies, is only included in the comment above titled “Comment: List of Reliable Sources”. The above facts are not true for the other lists cited above. Pratishthana (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

• CONSENSUS COMMENT. 6 out of 6 users unanimously agree that North Macedonian denar must be included as a common name for the currency. 2 users have expressed concerns about North Macedonian denar being the title of the page but their reasoning is not supported by facts/arguments or/and wikipedia policies. The reasoning of Kluche is "Or the name could change to 'Denar (MKD)' or simply 'Denar' despite it being against the precedent, since it's after all both the official and most commonly used name". Local hero claims "per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAME, the current title is appropriate". However, none of the claims made by these two users is supported by the reality or/and the reliable sources. The official name is denar. The most common name is North Macedonian denar based on the reliable sources prepared by Korpalo (who supports) and Local hero (who opposes).

Summary of our discussion to reach consensus

Options	Official Name	Most Common Name	Unambiguous	Recommended by WP:MOSMAC	In line with the new country's name	Consistent with the page titles for currencies of other countries
North Macedonian denar	NO	used in 47% of the reliable source	YES	YES	YES	YES
Macedonian denar	NO	used in 31% of the reliable sources	maybe	NO	NO	NO
denar	YES	NO	NO	Neutral	Neutral	NO
Winner	denar	North Macedonian denar	North Macedonian denar	North Macedonian denar	North Macedonian denar	North Macedonian denar

The table shows that North Macedonian denar satisfies all criteria and wins the other two options in all categories. The only exception is the official name, in which denar wins.

The current Macedonian denar does not win in any category.

Given that there is no advantage of the current Macedonian denar versus the proposed North Macedonian denar, if some user still opposes to North Macedonian denar, would s/he like to tell us what are the arguments to support the current title that is not the most common name, may be ambiguous, is not recommended by WP:MOSMAC, is not in line with the new country's name, and is not consistent with the names used for other currencies? Wikipedia should report facts and be built based on reality. Personal preferences should stay away from this discussion unless they are supported by evidence. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k) 09:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

There is an argument to be made if "North Macedonian denar" is recommended by WP:MOSMAC - Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred and According to the official prescriptions of the Prespa agreement, the adjectival form "North Macedonian" is generally to be avoided. Instead, it suggests the plain "Macedonian" is to be used in some contexts; while in other contexts, both adjectives are to be avoided altogether in favor of the alternative of possessive constructions like "of North Macedonia". Kluche (talk) 17:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

You focus on two sentences of WP:MOSMAC that are misleading:

• Article names, categories, and templates was not a separate question in RfC 2019. The only meaningful reason for the existence of this sentence is to recommend that neutral formulations should be preferred due to lack of reliable sources. For instance, if we cannot find reliable sources about XYZ, we should use a neutral formulation instead of Macedonian XYZ or North Macedonian XYZ. For XYZ=denar we have a significantly large number of reliable sources that confirm North Macedonian denar is the most common name.
• There is no case that the Prespa Agreement says North Macedonian should be avoided in favour of Macedonian, and it's sad that WP:MOSMAC includes a subjective interpretation of the Prespa Agreement. Otherwise, we would like to know in which line of which page of the Prespa Agreement you found this sentence.

On the other hand, I hope you don't intentionally ignore the whole text of WP:MOSMAC between the two sentences you reported that recommends North Macedonian. For your convenience, the two sentences are:

• However, in line with the reliable sources, adjectives may still be used when referring to such institutions in generic terms (e.g. the Greek and North Macedonian prime ministers), especially where the possessive form would be grammatically cumbersome or unnatural. While reliable sources continue to use both plain "Macedonian" and "North Macedonian" in such contexts, the majority opinion in the RfC favored the fuller form, "North Macedonian".
• In all other contexts, both "North Macedonian" and "Macedonian" may be used on Wikipedia in reference to the country (e.g. a North Macedonian company, or the Macedonian economy). In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic).

Given that you agree to rename this page, and after this clarification about WP:MOSMAC and your concerns about the adjective North Macedonian, I suppose there is no further objection, since North Macedonian denar fulfils all criteria WP:RS, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:MOSMAC, WP:NAMECHANGES in contrast to the current title that fulfils none and is out-of-date. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k) 17:06, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

• Relisting comment: I am relisting this discussion in the hope of getting some input from experienced editors from outside this topic area, particularly regarding the common name and the application of WP:MOSMAC. A sidenote: if you've already commented more than, say, three or four times, please consider taking a step back. Not every statement needs a response, and concise comments are much more effective than walls of text. Thanks. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, I'm returning to this discussion after a few days and I see yet another single-purpose account has popped up on the support side. I'm going to keep working on my list, perhaps at a sandbox, as the above is becoming difficult to sift through. --Local hero ^talk 03:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

 Comment: The "Macedonian denar" references list now resides at User:Local hero/sandbox. There are well over 200 listed, more than half of which are from international organizations, nearly three dozen are from foreign governments, another nearly three dozen from businesses/business news/business entities, just over a dozen books and journals, almost two dozen miscellaneous news articles and company websites. This is not counting others I've compiled that others may find to be "borderline".

Now, I'll finally turn to the "North Macedonian" list. The following should be excluded:

• One of the two IMF sources is from 2018 and must be excluded, as has been requested of my "Macedonian" sources.
• The UNICEF source is written only by Macedonians and must be excluded
• The second UK gov source is duplicated information from the first (same "part 9" for the DKK)
• What is "db.nomics"? It may call itself the "World's Economic Database" but that is certainly not its name; it is not an international organization. These should all be removed, otherwise I can find a several more comparable sites to "db.nomics" that use "Macedonian denar".
• Same as above for "PhiPost"
• The "Tourism Planning & Development" source must be excluded as it is clearly referring to data as recent as 2014
• There are two links for EVN's 2018/19 reports (one is "Full" and one is "Annual" but the denar page is the exact same and from the same period)
• Liberty Adriatic is some minor Balkan tourist company, not suitable for this discussion; otherwise, I can find many more that use "Macedonian denar" like this company
• Your #35 NBER source is duplicated to the NBER source #25
• One FT source is reproducing the same Central Asia Metals 2018 report

Other notes:

• By far the largest group of findings is from the Kosovo Central Bank, the central bank of a partially-recognized non-UN member.
• I find it interesting that you took issue when some of my sources were covering pre-2019 data in addition to post-2019 data, yet it's not an issue when yours do. Of course, these should not be excluded.
• Three of the US gov sources are actually public filings by one company; still valid just improperly labelled.
• The USAID source has a Macedonian author among other non-Macedonian authors, same with the IFR source (fine by me).
• The Juro source is a currency drop-down list, something you took major issue with in my list.
• One PCC group audit report and one Central Asia Metals report are for 2018, but published in 2019.

Conclusion:

Thus, I conservatively get 207 for "Macedonian denar" and 113 for "North Macedonian denar" (nearly one-third from Kosovo Central Bank) at this point. I essentially rest my case here. "Macedonian denar" remains by far preferred by international organizations, by foreign governments (particularly from English-speaking countries), currency exchange websites, business news sites, online remittance providers, cryptocurrency exchanges, business data sites, Google books results (in quantity and quality), foreign companies, etc. Truly the only edge "North Macedonian denar" seems to have is at the Kosovo Central Bank. We can also see that Google trends indicate "Macedonian denar" is much more popular. I believe it is clear that "North Macedonian denar" has not overtaken "Macedonian denar" as the common name and we can all stop scouring the web now. --Local hero ^talk 21:58, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

From day 1 you say Macedonian denar is the apropriate title, and since then you report a long list of spam by looking at out-of-date pages that still call the country FYROM and use the old Macedonian denar. Your list for sources of Macedonian denar includes: Deutsche Bundesbank “legal currency: Macedonian denar”; 22 July 2022 [also uses "North Macedonia denar" (no -n)], although the document clarifies that the term Macedonian denar was used only until February 11, 2019. In the beginning I thought you really didn't understand but after weeks playing the same game now I am sure you have different goals. This is one of the many examples that you include to make your spamlist longer, and you keep saying that Macedonian denar is the most common name although you cannot show that with scientific data. North is included in about 200 reliable sources (those of North Macedonian denar or North Macedonia denar) and Macedonian denar can be found in about 100 links of your list. 200 is 2 times more than 100. Even if you find 200 VALID links of Macedonian denar, wou will only show that Macedonian denar is used as often as the new name of the country. You are too far away from that.

I will remind you what you wrote recently here: I do not use "North Macedonian", as MOSMAC generally prefers "Macedonian" or other formulations. In cases of ambiguity, I use neutral formulations. Your answer makes clear that you would fight against the implementation of WP:MOSMAC even if there are 1 million sources prooving North Macedonian denar is the most common name. At some point you will have to accept the decisions of our community and implement WP:MOSMAC. It's sad that after three years, this community cannot implement its own decisions because of some editors like you who make arbitrary decisions. Ο Ροζ Πάνθηρας(^t_a^l_k) 08:12, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. There is nothing to be gained by forgoing WP:CONCISE, and there is nothing to disambiguate against. Red Slash 19:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• Support - easy. Consistency reigns here; common name, natural, concise etc. all concur. was your comment for the move request to "North Macedonian passport" last year. How would you explain this contradiction after a year? FYI the country has changed its name from Macedonia to North Macedonia, affecting the common name for passports, denars, etc. Korpalo (talk) 20:28, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Denar

The name of the currency is denar, and "Macedonian" doesn't come before it officially, and no other currency today is called denar. I believe that denar is where this article should belong, while a footnote be included at the top diverting to the actual dinar main page. Compare this with German Mark which redirects to Deutsche Mark, but at least Deutsche was part of the actual name. --Juicy Oranges (talk) 21:28, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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