Talk:Lyubov Golanchikova

Possible help?

(copied from: (User talk:Sander.v.Ginkel#Possible help?)

I read a posting between you and Ipigott on WiR about Estonians and am hoping one of you can help. Megalibrarygirl and I have an aviator, who did several firsts, but I can't figure out what her name should be in English. Some sources say she is Estonian, others Russian, and one says Latvian. Yes, I get that Estonia (and Latvia) was part of Russia at various times, but I don't know what to call her or how to spell her name. If she is Estonian, seems likely it would be Ljuba rather than the Russian Lyubov, but given how she wrote her last name, I tend to think we should disregard other spellings and go with what she wrote. Or am I crazy?

• Ljuba Galantchikov Estonian? [1]
• Lyubov Golanchikova Russian? [2]
• Lyubov Golanchikova Russian? [3] page 27
• Lioubov Golantchikova Russian? [4]
• L. Galanschikoff looks to be her signature here: [5] close up: [6]
• Ljuba Galanschikoff [7]
• Luba Galanschikoff Russian [8]
• Lioubov Galantchikova, Latvian [htp://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1913-photo-ljuba-galanschikoff-female-pilot]

Russian Wiki just says Russian empire. [9] The French article uses a Russo-French spelling. Help would be greatly appreciated. User:SusunW (talk) 02:23, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@SusunW:, Hi and thanks for coming bye and raising the issue. I'm not an expert on Russian language but I had several times the same problem. Translating names in Russian to the Latin script can be done in several ways. Where in English is written a 'v' can also be written a 'w' like the Polish Wikipedia does. She might even have written it herself in more then one way... If you end up with a few names you can start the article with

Name also written as Name2, Name3 and Name4 was a Russian born(?) Estonian aviator.

(Or something like this). To make it even a bit more confusing, during the Cold War Russia was the Soviet Union. Maybe people at Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia can help you better? Thanks, Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 08:49, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@SusunW and Megalibrarygirl: Transliteration from Russian is always a problem as there are different systems for equivalents in the various European languages, generally based on pronounciation. For example Putin becomes Poutine in French. Family names ending in -ov sometimes remain invariable for women in English, especially for immigrants and children of immigrants born abroad, but generally become -ova for women. In this case, I would not include the Dutch or Latvian spellings. I would go for Lyubov Golanchikova as she was in fact born in St Petersburg although she flew in Riga. I think you may have misinterpreted the handwritten signature. It looks to me like Galantchikoff but that is no doubt the Latvian (or even German) phonetic equivalent of her name. The ending -off for Russian names is not common in English. (See here for modern transliteration conventions.) So why not go for Lyubov Golanchikova, also Ljuba Galantchikoff,... and include other variants as redirects if you wish. Wikidata already has Lyubov Golanchikova for English. I also see she emigrated to USA and was a taxi driver in New York City (where she died) which means there must be an official American spelling of her name. I'm pretty sure it's Lyubov Golanchikova. A fuller form seems to be Lyubov A. Golanchikova (The "A" stands for the patronym Alexandrovna which is used in Russian but not in English.) I'm sure your research has also revealed that as a teenager she was a Vaudeville singer and actress using the name Molly Moore (Russian Мили Море or Молли Мор). Hope this helps. I look forward to seeing the article and perhaps contributing a bit to it myself.--Ipigott (talk) 11:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@Sander.v.Ginkel and Ipigott: I found a ton of newspaper articles about her in the US press — Luba Phillips. LOL Those that give her maiden name call her Galanschikoff or Galanchikoff. [10], [11], [12], [13] Obviously, I have enough stuff to write about her, if I could just decide what to call the article. I agree she was born in St. Petersburg and may well have been of Estonian or Latvian heritage, but I think we have no real proof of that. So, I shall do it with the Russian spelling. And yes, I would love your help Ian. No possible way I could read other than her name in that Dutch newspaper article and I am sure you have access to sources I don't. Megalibrarygirl, in the timeline, I'm gonna make it Lyubov Golanchikova. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@SusunW: (Sorry for taking so much space on your page, SvG.) So after all that, she just ended up as plain Luba Phillips on her air club card or even L. Phillips on her taxi badge. But it should probably have been L. Phillipoff as her husband was Boris Phillipoff (but his name was probably changed to Phillips on Staten Island). Lots of interesting detail in the article on "The Flying Ballerina". Interesting too that she was a ballet dancer, not a Vaudeville singer. See also [14]. Also some interesting details here including her working in a beauty parlour. Quite an exotic woman!--Ipigott (talk) 14:52, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

This Russian article clearly identifies her as a popular singer in Petersburg rather than a ballet dancer.--Ipigott (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Ipigott I have started her here. User:SusunW/Lyubov Golanchikova Please feel free to jump in. I too apologize for taking up so much space on your page SvG but do appreciate the help. She is fascinating. SusunW (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

SusunW Yes, really fascinating. I'll wait until you're in bed and return to it tomorrow morning my time.--Ipigott (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@SusunW: and @Ipigott: no problem at all! I just love these kind of conversations :). I would just say ask more, whatever you want :) Article is becoming great! Started reading of it. And yes, we do need more of these women on Wikipedia. Cheers, Sander.v.Ginkel ^(Talk) 23:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Ljubov Golanchikova

(copied from User talk:SusunW#Ljubov Golanchikova)

I'm coming across a number of sources which maintain she was born in Viljandi, now in Estonia. For example [15], [16]. In Estonia, her name is written Golantšikova. It is stated that there is a record of her baptism in the Greek Orthodox church in Viljandi. I don't know if there is any way we can verify this. In any case, I think it would be useful to have a section of the article on her names and possible birthplaces. I won't be working any more on the article today if you want to return to it.--Ipigott (talk) 17:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Ipigott I totally agree. Feel free to add whatever you think is necessary. I think it is important to have the section because the naming situation is so complex and obviously effects sourcing. I'll do it if you want me to but you are so much better at all the languages than I am. SusunW (talk) 18:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Russian article also says Estonia. [17] I am puzzled why there is confusion of her birth date if her birth and christening record exists. Urgggggg!

We have one very active Estonian editor, ExRat. I wonder if s/he would be in a position to investigate the records in Viljandi (or advise on how we could go about it). I see s/he has also been editing the article on Viljandi.--Ipigott (talk) 09:06, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I've put together something on her names (and in so doing messed up your beautiful Harvard referencing). I've also added comments for you on the Dutch and French newspaper snippets. The French one gives the location of the crash when flying to Paris. Would you like to clean the whole thing up and move it to main space. We can then more easily invite others to contribute.--Ipigott (talk) 13:47, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Not to worry, Ipigott. I so appreciate the help. I would be very glad to have ExRat chime in. I think, a lot of the confusion is from promotional press. They wanted her to be bigger than life, so why say she was from Viljandi, which international audiences had never heard of. Why say she was a vaudeville singer and dancer, when it would make a better story if she danced at the Bolshoi? In these situations, I usually find that the closer the reports are to the time of the event, the more accurate and that primary sources may be needed to clarify what is true and what is "colorful". SusunW (talk) 14:55, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Toivo Kitvel is obviously an expert and has written several books on Estonian planes and aviators. I was not able to find an email address for him but ExRat may be able to contact him. I think he is connected to the Technical University in Tallinn. See this for example.--Ipigott (talk) 15:14, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I hope he will help us. I am very curious, as that article, gives a dob of 1884. Everything else that has a date says 1889. When we finish, Ipigott I think it would be good to put the talk page discussions from here and SvG's page on the talk page of the article. Unless you object. It may help someone else who is interested in her. SusunW (talk) 15:19, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

By all means move all the discussions to the article's talk page. I don't think it was Kitvel who added the birth data. The one who started the page was Ralph Cooper who has an email contact at the bottom of the page. Unfortunately he does not appear to have been active since 2013.--Ipigott (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Anther issue

Ipigott I cannot get her to link to the articles in other languages? Any idea why? SusunW (talk) 17:42, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ipigott: @SusunW: - oh dears. Two articles :(. What are the chances. See Lioubov Golantchikova --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:30, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

SusunW You moved it to the main page a bit too late. The best option now is to blank your page keeping a copy in your user space, wait for it to be deleted and then contribute to Lioubov Golantchikova. Once it is deleted, we can move the other article to the more correct Lyubov Golanchikova. You should add everything you can to the other article. You have a lot of interesting things to add. Hope you're not too upset about this.--Ipigott (talk) 18:45, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, or merge and redirect one of them, rather than deleting. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks @Tagishsimon and Ipigott: I don't know what is best. That Lioubov Golantchikova article has zero in line citations. Surely Rosiestep can help with a merge. I have no desire to try to figure out what text in the article comes from what source. It says it is a straight translation of the Russian article, which clearly did not have the lengthy analysis we did. I don't care remotely if I get credited with the article creation or not, but think the analysis is important to include. SusunW (talk) 19:04, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm too tired to do sensible thinking: are there any assertions of interest in the unreferenced article which are not in the referenced article ... they might deserve to be rescued, even if they're put on the talkpage of the referenced article for later consideration. And then redirect the unreferenced article to the referenced article, make tea, drink tea, go to bed. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

'cos for sure the referencing on Lyubov Golanchikova is superb. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:11, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Tagishsimon I asked the creator on the other page if they were okay with a merge. Hopefully the response will be positive. I am cautious, as we see in the discussion. Wanted to be sure about her name and birth info before we started. Unfortunately, we didn't resolve all the issues, but explained them with sourcing. SusunW (talk) 19:18, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

And you have a green light for the merge. Do you, though, have a cup of tea? Priorities, SusunW. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Woooooot! Now, just to have someone do it and keep the sources for us to peruse on the talk page. You have tea, I'll have coffee, (it's still a bit early for tequila in Mexico :) ), if that's okay, Tagishsimon. SusunW (talk) 19:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Great work, Tagishsimon. You should have a promotion!--Ipigott (talk) 19:25, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

I should have a snooze. Good luck with folding them together :) --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ipigott and Tagishsimon: Indeed! As my grandpa would say, we shall add another zero to your salary! Enjoy your sleep and thak you! SusunW (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@SusunW, Ipigott, and Tagishsimon:, I've merged the articles, retaining the one with the Wikidata link, and leaving a redirect on the one with the alternate spelling. This article now needs a copyedit. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Rosiestep Thanks! I'll try to look at it tomorrow. Wearing thin today after all the work to save 100 Women. SusunW (talk) 01:14, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Rosiestep. I went through the imported stuff para by para - I'm satisfied the pre-merge article had all of the imported detail, with the exception of the names of aviatrixes 1 & 2, which I've added to note 1 - and so I've deleted the imported paragraphs. I think so far as the merge is concerned, we are done. It would be nice, though, to know why she emigrated to the US - albeit the merged-in article specified iirc that the reason is unknown. --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Final thing from me is, in the sentence "In October 1923, Boris and Lubow Philipoff emigrated to the United States aboard the White Star Line's "S.S. Baltic"" I'm not sure why we use the name Lubow. It's the first instance os use; I appreciate it may be what is found on the passenger list ... I wonder if we could handle the name at this point better? --Tagishsimon (talk) 05:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Tagishsimon you totally ROCK! I just had no energy to do this yesterday night. Thank you! On the ship manifest thingy, I wrote the spelling as it appeared on the manifest. Perhaps I should put it in quotations? SusunW (talk) 14:57, 7 December 2016 (UTC)