Talk:Loanwords in Sri Lankan Tamil/Archive 1

Is this a wictionary project

Your article Sri Lankan Tamil words of foreign origin belongs over at Wiktionary not here please see WP:NOT for help. BJK 23:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

If one goes to ´´Category:Linguistics_lists´´ then you can find a lot of lists of words by many combinations. Does it mean that they all belong to the Wictionary ? It is not clear yet to me that this list is somewhat different that requires it to be placed in the Wictionary. Thanks for any clarifications.User:RaveenS

Also See category Category:Lists_of_English_words_of_foreign_origin is not in Wictionary. Will remove tag User:RaveenS

SL Tamil and Indian Tamil

Is the aim to list all words of foreign origin in Sri Lankan Tamil, or only those words which are special to Sri Lankan Tamil (and not also found in Indian Tamil)? The introduction suggests the former, but many of your words are also used in Indian Tamil. -- Arvind 19:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I've marked off the words that seem to be unique to SL Tamil. I was a little uncertain about "Yannal" (which exists in Indian Tamil but is pronounced "Channal" or "Jannal"), but the pronounciation difference struck me as being significant. Interesting that "koppai" means "plate" in SL Tamil and "cup" in Indian Tamil - I've never noticed that in conversations with SL Tamil friends. -- Arvind 16:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I've rewrote the article based on your obervation. It would be intersting to find how Indian Tamil dialects have borrowed European loan words too. Also Koppai is a Plate and a Cup is a Cup :-)) at least in some circles. RaveenS 20:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Mesai, alumari, sapattu, veranda, vangi, penai and pippa are all used in Indian Tamil dialects (I use them all in daily speech except sapattu). I had no idea they came from Portuguese. Kaju and Kamara are used too but almost exclusively in urban northern (i.e. Chennai) dialects, which leads me to suspect they may be later borrowings from Urdu. It would indeed be fascinating to find out how they entered Indian Tamil, although I wouldn't rule out their having come in by way of Jaffna Tamil since there was much more interaction at a social and literary level a couple of hundred years ago than there is today. -- Arvind 21:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

And I'm still amused by the different meanings "koppai" has in TN and Sri Lanka. That gives plenty of scope for funny misunderstandings at mealtimes! -- Arvind 21:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Modaya and other words

Are you sure this comes from Sinhala? Indian Tamil has madaiyan (மடையன்) meaning "oaf" and madaithanam (மடைத்தனம்) meaning "stupidity" or "folly". The modification of a -> o is not unknown between Indian and SL Tamil, so the word could well be a Sinhala borrowing from Tamil. -- Arvind 22:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

True. There's also a possibly related madanthai, name (perhaps pejorative) of a phase in the life of a woman. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I've moved "modaya" to the List of Tamil words in Sinhala because I have found the words "motai", "moti" etc. in several Tamil dictionaries. Must be Tamil.

Furthermore, I've converted all Tamil words to transcription of the actual Tamil writing, in most cases according to my dictionaries. Those normally give the Indian Tamil spelling. So if someone is definitely sure that a word is spelt differently in Sri Lankan Tamil, go ahead and change the orthography, if possible according to the scientific indological system that I've used.

Other changes:

• "pavutta": removed, is Sanskrit

It is a Sinhala word that has entered Sri Lankan Tamil - Sinhala Bauddha. I do not agree with considering it "Sanskrit." Please see comments below.

• "peengan": moved to Portuguese section (see above in the list)

I thought this is the Sinhalese pingaana. Portuguese -> Sinhala -> Sri Lankan Tamil (Just like many English words have been derived from French words that have been derived from Latin.

• "pitti": removed, is - I think - only found in the Tamil versions of Sinhala place names, also might be some Tamil word in Sinhala

Pitiya is a Sinhalese place ending. eg Kumburupiddi which is now a Tamil village is actually Kumburu Pitiya

• "pikku": removed, is Pali, not Sinhala

Tend to agree here.

• "ponnaya": removed (looks more like a (old) Tamil word in Sinhala)

But then "Ponnaih" is a Tamil name.

• "sathosa": removed, is a brand name

Agree

• "sinkalam": removed, is a name (like "(h)inti" isn't a loanword from Hindi but the name)

Tend to disagree, but can see the reasoning.

• "surankani": removed, is Sanskrit

Once again I strongly disagree with removing these so-called "Sanskrit" words; they are Sinhala. The word entered Sri Lankan Tamil through the popular Sinhala baila song "Surangani".

• "tappai": moved to Portuguese section

Agree

• "tuvakku": removed, is Tamil (tuppaakki, tuppaakku)

See SRaveen's comment

• "kakkuus": moved to Dutch section
• "sirappar": removed (no source)
• "kokis": moved to Dutch section

Can see why.

Looking forward to fruitful cooperation, cheers, Krankman 16:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Added my comments under yours - Ben

Isolation

The article says The historic isolation of native Tamil speaking communities from the Sinhalese community till the modern times has contributed to surprisingly few borrowings from Sinhala into Tamil. That isn't true. The high number of Tamil words in Sinhala proves the opposite: The two communities were in close contact most of the time; Tamil craftsmen, merchants and so on have with their families lived peacefully among the Sinhalese since at least the 3rd century BCE. Of course, many of them were assimilated into the Sinhalese in the course of the centuries (and the Sinhalese themselves have forgotten about the fact that many of them have Dravidian blood in them.) It's just that the only migration that took place was that of Tamils to the Sinhalese-ruled South (due to climatic and economic reasons), and not vice versa. We should rephrase that somewhat like The relative isolation of the exclusively Tamil-speaking settlements in the North and East of the island has contributed ... What do you think? Krankman 17:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. RaveenS

Thanks macchang! ;-) Krankman 19:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Tuvakku VS. Tuppaki

What I read is that Sri Lankan Tamil and Sinhalese borrowed the the word for Gun via Turkish and the Indian Tamil Tuppaki is a derivation probably of similar source but unique to Indian Tamil via Urdu??. SL Tamil uses Tuvakku exlusively and Indian Tamil uses Tuppaki and Tuvakku is not generally considered to be borrowed from Tuppaki. The usage of Tuvakku in SL tamil is considred to be a local borrowing from Sinhalese not other way around.RaveenS 19:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that sounds interesting! Where do you get that kind of information from? If that's true, we should re-insert it.

However, we might consider adding a new column for words that Tamil got via Sinhala but which are not Sinhala words, to state the external source (like Turkish in this case). That might be applicable for "taappai" and "pingaan" too.

Thinking about it, how can "tuvakku" have come from Turkish to Sinhala? I have never heard of direct contacts. Via Arabic, if traders sold the guns? Seems a little complicated, maybe even impossible for us to find out because even the real specialist researchers aren't sure ... Krankman 19:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

A few Muslims in Sri Lanka have Turkish ancestry. Some were doctors serving Moor regiments. Perhaps this is where the term came from. See:

http://rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/gen090.html

and

http://www.rootsweb.com/~lkawgw/fazphoto.html

- Ben 03:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I read this about 20 years ago and obviously dont have the reference anymore. But at that time it made sence to me because unlike a bow and arrow, a gun was invented and introduced into the Sri lankan Tamil and Indian Tamil communities once they have been seperated and well established as two entities. Just like Car and Automobile in British English and American English. RaveenS 12:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Turkish for Gun is Tufek [1] the source of SL Tamil/Sinhalese Tuvakku

Hindi for Gun is Topa[2] the source of Indian Tamil Tuppaki

Now what we need is an article that puts them together as I haveRaveenS 15:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)