Talk:List of journalists killed in Russia/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Copyright violations and distortions by Vlad

For example, Vlad inserted the following segment: "The Sharia Jamaat also claimed responsibility for the murder of Magomedzagid Varisov. On June 28, Magomedzagid Varisov, a well-known political scientist and journalist, was shot to death as he pulled up to his home in Makhachkala."

But original source includes the following: "The Sharia Jamaat also claimed responsibility for the murder of Magomedzagid Varisov. On June 28, Magomedzagid Varisov, a well-known political scientist and journalist, was shot to death as he pulled up to his home in Makhachkala."

Most important, this source claims that Varisov, quite probably, was NOT killed by Sharia Jamaat if to read the entire text. Biophys 20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I request attention of administrators, because two texts cited above are indentical. And this is typical case of false accusations of me by Biophys. This is uncivil disruptive behavior and personal attack.Vlad fedorov 05:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Right, it is exactly what I am talking about: these texts are identical. That is why this is copyright violation: you have copied this text from another web site, I am sure without any advance permission. Biophys 14:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • First, "Using copyrighted work from others. All works are copyrighted unless they either fall into the public domain or their copyright is explicitly disclaimed.from here.
  • Second, Wikipedia, and the Wikimedia Foundation, its legal body, are based in Florida, United States... In the U.S., any work published before January 1, 1923 anywhere in the world is in the public domain..." from here.
  • Third, "Copyright infringement is a violation of the rights of the copyright holder, which involves the loss of income and artistic control of the material when it is used without the copyright holder's consent".
  • Fourth, "Contributors' rights and obligations. If you contribute material to Wikipedia, you thereby license it to the public under the GFDL (with no invariant sections, front-cover texts, or back-cover texts). In order to contribute, you must be in a position to grant this license, which means that either you hold the copyright to the material, for instance because you produced it yourself, or you acquired the material from a source that allows the licensing under GFDL, for instance because the material is in the public domain or is itself published under GFDL. In the first case, you retain copyright to your materials. You can later republish and relicense them in any way you like. However, you can never retract the GFDL license for the versions you placed here: that material will remain under GFDL forever. In the second case, if you incorporate external GFDL materials, as a requirement of the GFDL, you need to acknowledge the authorship and provide a link back to the network location of the original copy. from here.
  • Fifth, "If you find a copyright infringement. If you suspect a copyright infringement, you should at the very least bring up the issue on that page's talk page. Others can then examine the situation and take action if needed. The most helpful piece of information you can provide is a URL or other reference to what you believe may be the source of the text". from here Vlad fedorov 15:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What about your copying of Stanislav Lunev diff citations form his respective copyrighted book? What about posting of the whole copyrighted articles by you at the talk pages? For example publishing copyrighted article on Internet troll squadsdiff? I just published citations which are permittable by law. If I copy the whole or substantial part of the article, then I need to ask copyrights.Vlad fedorov 15:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is the full article of the source: http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=409&issue_id=3394&article_id=2369984

ASSASSINATIONS CONTINUE IN DAGESTAN


The Sharia Jamaat also claimed responsibility for the murder of Magomedzagid Varisov. On June 28, Magomedzagid Varisov, a well-known political scientist and journalist, was shot to death as he pulled up to his home in Makhachkala. His driver was wounded while his wife, who was also in the car, was not hurt. Varisov was director of the republic's Center for Strategic Initiatives and Political Technologies and previously worked as head of the information and analysis department of the Dagestani People's Assembly and in the republic's Ministry of Nationalities, External Relations and Information. He also published articles in the mass media that provided – at least in the view of Itar-Tass in a June 28 item – "unbiased assessments of recent developments in Dagestan." On June 29, Kavkazcenter posted a message from the Sharia Jamaat calling Varisov a FSB agent, and saying he was a "mouthpiece of Kremlin propaganda and the Dagestani puppets, one of the active ideologues of Russian infidel power and the fight against establishing Sharia in Dagestan," and stating that he had been "executed." The statement noted that after the Sharia Jamaat claimed responsibility for the murder of Dagestan's minister of nationalities, information and external affairs, Zagir Arukhov (see Chechnya Weekly, May 25), Varisov published an article that dismissed the claim as simply another statement of the kind routinely put out by "all kinds of virtual jamaats." "With the permission of Allah, we destroyed this vermin, finally letting him taste the reality of our words and death," the Sharia Jamaat statement read.

<these were facts>

<now we have opinions>

Still, not all observers are convinced that the Islamist underground killed Varisov. Kavkazky Uzel noted on June 29 that several days before his death, Berliner Zeitung had quoted Varisov as saying that the Dagestani authorities were losing control of the situation in the republic. In addition, Rumina Elmurzaeva, a journalist with the Dagestani weekly newspaper Novoe delo, told gazeta.ru that the newspaper had published an analytical piece by Varisov in which he had described the June 4 security sweep targeting ethnic Dagestanis in the Chechen village of Borozdinovskaya (see Chechnya Weekly, June 30) as a large-scale "political provocation." The website quoted unnamed Novoe delo employees as saying that Varisov "believed that the events in Borozdinovskaya, and particularly their consequences, which heated up the situation in both regions, were equally advantageous to the authorities in both Chechnya and Dagestan. His position was clear. He bluntly wrote that a majority of politicians are currently not involved in resolving the conflict, but earning political points on the blood of the murdered." Ann Cooper, director of the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), wrote in the Moscow Times on July 7 that Elmurzaeva told the CPJ that Varisov "had received threats, was being followed and had unsuccessfully sought help from the local police."

On July 4, UNESCO Director-General Koïchiro Matsuura condemned the murder of Magomedzagid Varisov, saying that he "embodied freedom of expression" and calling on authorities to "investigate this crime and bring the perpetrators to justice." The Vienna-based International Press Institute also condemned the murder and expressed concern over the situation in Dagestan, Radio Liberty's Russian service reported on July 6.

Vlad fedorov 05:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand. We probably need a separate article about Magomedzagid Varisov and extend article about Shariat Jamaat. This article also needs a lot of work. Biophys 18:35, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

List of journalists who died under suspicious circumstances in Russia

  • Ivan Safronov, a reporter for the Kommersant fell to his death from a window in his Moscow apartment. He was investigating Russian weapons sales to Syria and Iran. He had been questioned multiple times by FSB.
  • Yuri Baranyuk, the Komsomol'skaya Pravda newspaper, - Chechnya;
  • Igor Gareev, the Krasnoyarsk State TV and Radio Company, Natalia Pivovarova, the 7 Kanal TV Company, and Konstantin Stepanov, the Segodnyashnyaya Gazeta newspaper, all from Krasnoyarsk city, died in a helicoper crash together with Aleksandr Lebed
  • Vyacheslav Savintsev, the Gala - press newspaper, Tomsk city;
  • Firat Valeev, the Vecherni Neftekamsk newspaper, Bashkortostan;

ilgiz 03:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of references

Kasakhpol, you just deleted the following references: 

	===2001===

- More detail: [1] - - ===2000=== - More detail: [2] - - ===1999=== - More detail: [3]

  1. ^ Russian: Погибшие журналисты - 2001 Glasnost Defence Foundation
  2. ^ Russian: Погибшие журналисты - 2000 Glasnost Defence Foundation
  3. ^ Russian: Погибшие журналисты - 1999 Glasnost Defence Foundation

and others, as well as my last edit.

Please explain here why are you making such changes.Biophys 23:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC) I am going to write the lists, but unfortunately their website does not work for some reason. Biophys 01:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Another

[1]. Grey Fox (talk) 14:24, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Owner of Ingushetia opposition website reported killed

Magomed Yevloyev was shot to death today by federals: [2] Grey Fox (talk) 12:57, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

No need to discuss this. Please be bold. Include in articles whatever you think should be included.Biophys (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Explanation

First, this is list of journalists that were killed in Russia, not those who died from natural causes. If there are any people who do not fall into this category, they should be excluded from the list. Second, any foreign journalists killed in Russia certainly belong to this category. Third, I just created this article; so the list should be verified, corrected, extended, etc. There is nothing final here. Finally, if anything is disputed, please tell what exactly is disputed, and let's correct this. Biophys 19:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well the definition of killed doesn't amounts to all cases of unnatural causes.Vlad fedorov 20:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Then I will make two lists: (1) journalists who were killed, and (2) who died under suspicious circumstances. Whoud that be O'K? Biophys 02:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
O'K, I am leaving only people who were killed. Please, do not move this page any more!Biophys 00:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Biophys and others have done a lot of good work, putting names and details into English. It helps to have some categories of violent death (accident, crossfire, homicide, terrorist attack) before you can see who is possibly being targeted - some murders are just street crime, after all. But until you have these lists you cannot begin to assess how wide the problem is.

For comparison, look at the way the the new International News Safety Institute classifies the deaths of journalists worldwide,Killing the Messenger and who it includes in its lists Casualties Voronov (talk) 12:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Why Ivan Safronov listed as killed?

There is no proof he was killed , I'm changing killed to died DVoit 16:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In a long response in April 2009 to the Glasnost Defence Foundation in Moscow about the state of investigation into many different deaths of journalists, the Prosecutor General's Office said investigation into the circumstances of Safronov's death had been re-opened, classifying him as a victim of incitement to suicide (Article 110 of the RF Criminal Code).

To get proof you need an investigation. That may now happen. Voronov (talk) 12:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic article

I don't see the purpose of lists of X profession killed in Y country. That also goes for List of journalists killed in Tajikistan. Per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:INDISCRIMINATE Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC) Also, I noticed that the article was speedy kept in the last AFD but that was an improper non-admin closure. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:21, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you take it to deletion review. Martintg (talk) 02:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I was hoping to discuss it in talk and come to a consensus. One of the reasons for the unencyclopedic tag was to try to get broader input but that tag was removed by user:Vecrumba. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
The purpose of such lists is not that they are random, like, say, journalists killed in France or something, it's that it is a phenomena that bears scrutiny. It is explained and rather obvious. I support Vecrumba's removal of your tag. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:54, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
Then that's a WP:SYNTH. If there are sources that indicate there is a phenomena that bears scrutiny, they should be used. All we have in these two articles are a list of journalists that are killed in Russia and Tajikistan without any evidence of any phenomena. Furthermore, you could probably make such a list about most countries as your likely to find a journalist that was killed in almost any country. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
It is scrutinised alright, check out this. Martintg (talk) 05:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
This is an important subject in its own right (as seen here on the BBC) and has generated many articles in the media - therefore a list is fully warranted. Malick78 (talk) 12:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"I don't see the purpose of lists of X profession killed in Y country. That also goes for List of journalists killed in Tajikistan." Look my friend, these lists are relevant not because journalists happened to be killed, but because the killing was systematic. They were killed because they were journalists, which makes these lists all the more relevant. A list of mechanics or cooks killed in Tajikistan or Russia would not be relevant, but lists of professions targeted for killings for political reasons makes absolute sense.David Straub (talk) 20:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This is not true. Many of those listed here were killed not for journalism, but for other reasons. For example - Ilyas Shurpayev and Ilya Zimin ware killed not for journalism, but for robbery. Some, for example Vladimir Yatsina and, most likely, Paul Klebnikov were killed by chechen terrorists. Igor Domnikov, Iskandar Khatloni were killed with a hammer and an axe - very strange way for political murder. Anastasia Baburova - was in the wrong place in the wrong time and was not the target according to most reports. Stanislav Markelov was not a journalist, but a human right activists. As you can see - only some of listed journalists were killed for journalism. In summary the number of journalists killed in Russia for journalism is significantly less than in Philippines, Mexico and espessialy Iraq under US occupation. Thus I agree there is no reason for the article for the only country but political propaganda. Tajikistan is very small country and most peaple knows nothing about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pereleshin (talk • contribs) 00:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Pereleshin is right about two things. Most of the homicides in this list are almost certainly part of the high murder rate in Russia (already 16,000 a year when the statistics were first published in 1988). Second, when you use the vague term "killed" this also includes those who die in crossfire situations, i.e. in Russia the 3-4 October 1993 days in Moscow and the first Chechen campaign 1994-1996 (together these took over twenty lives, plus four journalists who went missing in Chechnya then and are certainly dead). But his remarks about the murder of Igor Domnikov are quite odd. No one has claimed it was a "political" murder (what does that mean?) but his killers have actually been brought to trial and convicted and it was quite evidently a contract killing. You can read about the case, in English and in Russian, in the two reports quoted in the revised article. Voronov (talk) 13:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

200 died in suspicious circumstances?

The BBC claims that 200 "have been murdered or have died in suspicious circumstances in Russia since 1993". Where did they get that number from and how come our list is so small? Malick78 (talk) 12:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Our list is so small due to the desire of certain editors to portray Putin as the leader of a murderous regime. If people were interested in presenting NPOV information, they would include those killed when Yeltsin was Prez, and it is a verifiable fact that more people were killed under Yeltsin than Putin. The arbitrary date of inclusion of 2000 was a deliberate, calculated act on the part of certain editors. Where did BBC get their figures from? Likely from the same place I got the figures for 1991, 1992 and 1993 from. The rest should be included, and I deliberately haven't done so yet in order to see if other particular editors would take it upon themselves to include this information into the article, which they haven't. As I am here for helping to build an encyclopaedia, rather than for advocacy of my own personal agenda, I will now take it upon myself and will add the others myself. It still won't stop the article from being NPOV without prose though. --Russavia Dialogue 11:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I'm new on this page so I don't know what's gone before but if the title is "Russia" then Yeltsin's time should be included. Malick78 (talk) 12:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Maybe you should add info on duty timeline of Russian presidents. Will that solve the case. Kasaalan (talk) 12:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Two lists of figures have now been added to the timeline. These show up the gaps in the Wiki list. For instance, Russian media monitors and the IFJ database record ten confirmed murders of journalists in 1997 but the Wiki list has no names for that year. These two lists also make it easier to compare different decades.

Russavia may be right that "more people were killed under Yeltsin" (that means "more journalists", I guess?) It is quite possible that in the first years of its existence the Glasnost Defence Foundation (established in 1991) did not manage to record all the deaths of journalists across the world's largest country. I do not know if he has since added any names since February but if he can provide verifiable evidence of other deaths of journalists that would be very useful to everyone.

One reason it has been possible to gather this information is that journalists and editors, naturally, publicise and record the fact that their colleagues have been killed, so contacting national and local media, unions, etc. should turn up the evidence if it's there. To save Russavia some unnecessary labour I shall enter the names of those journalists, currently missing from the list, who are already in the IFJ database. Voronov (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Journalists killed in Russia under Yeltsin

As far as I know their number per year was much higher then under Putin. Could somebody complete this list? The name of the article demands it. Voyevoda (talk) 23:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is good to see that nationalist rhetoric has a home even on wikipedia. David Straub (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Nationalist rhetoric? What rubbish!! it is a fact that there were more journalists killed during the Yeltsin years than during the Putin years, and Voyevoda is correct that they should all be included. --Russavia Dialogue 16:50, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I've now inserted names of many more journalists who were murdered or died in crossfire incidents in the 1990s, with a link to the most convenient source, the IFJ database. For fuller information on each the Memorium website of the CJES is very good, if you read Russian.

That period is longer ago and, without the internet, it's more work to track down information. If Voyevoda, Russavia and co can find other names and details that would be very useful. Not least because President Medvedev has commented that there should be no statute of limitation for murders committed to silence journalists (until 1997 the limit for prosecution was 10 years after the offence; since then it has been 15 years). Voronov (talk) 15:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Something about criminal and politics

If journalist of regional newspaper ivestigated crimes of local mafia leader, it doesn't mean that he was killed due to his political views. Number of journalists who had conflict with state authorities and were killed (or allegedly killed, such as Yuri Shchekochikhin), and whose deaths are widely spoken by western media is very few. If their deaths hasn't been investigated correctly, it doesn't mean that Putin personally shot them dead and that western special services or somebody controlled by them (chechen terrorists, for example) are out of suspicion. Wikipedia isn't tribune for western propaganda, and the other point of view must be represented equally.94.158.116.135 (talk) 09:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is not about Putin or Yeltsin. It's about journalists killed in Russia. It's up to the country's elected government how they prevent or investigate the murders. --ilgiz (talk) 16:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with you. But all arguments for political background of majority of killings are ridiculous. Contract killings are ordinary phenomenon in modern Russia (especially for Yeltsin's rule), it was unimaginable during Soviet era. Many of people, who created this criminal order, are considered in western countries as "political prisoners" or as "persecuted due to their political views" (Berezovsky, Gusinsky, Khodorkovsky). Contract killings are the most difficult to investigate, and there are now evidence that killings of journalists are investigated less efficiently than killings of businessmans, government workers etc.94.158.116.135 (talk) 07:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
Could you point out editorial sentences that argue? I see that there are referenced statements by human rights and professional groups calling to investigate the murders. I do not see a connection between the murders and the perceived status of the disgraced oligarchs by the press in the developed countries. --ilgiz (talk)
We should separate flies from burgers (as in Russian idiom). Investigation of all killings, notwithstanding to profession of victims, is undisputed duty of my country. I write about alleged political motif of majority of killings: it's only fantasy of western "independent" journalists and "human rights defenders".94.158.116.135 (talk) 13:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I could not find the allegation in the editorial text. If an allegation is made in a primary or secondary reliable source, it could be mentioned in the article, just as the counter-arguments. Note that both arguments should refer to the sources rather than express the Wikipedia editor's point of view. That is, the wording should read that this particular person or organization claimed or stated such-and-such argument. Thanks, --ilgiz (talk) 14:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I write about this response of "Reporters Without Borders", cited in article: "The organization noted that many of the journalists killed were critical of the regime of Russian President Vladimir Putin". I tried to assess references and didn't find this. Opinion that Politkovskaya, Markelov, Estemirova etc. were killed by "Kremlin agents" is popular between Russian radical liberals (abundantly paid by western foundations) and some western reviewers (mostly of marginal views, such as Andre Gluksman). This article is only collection of banal appeals to investigate murders and of names of the journalists without speculations about cause of their deaths and so should be deleted immediately. And whether reliable sources will be found or not we must remember that this is only speculations.94.158.116.135 (talk) 15:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I could not access the references to the rsf.org web site. The 2008 annual report criticized authorities for "little progress in fight to punish killers of journalists"[3] --ilgiz (talk) 17:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
It is pity that they copy-pasted that from the pattern. However the truth is different. For example Ilyas Shurpayev and Ilya Zimin killers were found, but they fled abroad. Shurupayevs's killer were jailed in Tajikistan, Zimin's - now being procecuted by Moldoven high court. Killers of Yuri Shebalkin, Konstantin Borovko, Leonig Etkind, Vladimir Sukhomilin were found and jail in Russia. This list is not complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pereleshin (talk • contribs) 00:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Agree with Ilgiz. This is simply a list of journalists killed in Russia. No one tells that the murders were political. No one tells that Putin ordered the murders. No one tells that killers were not found (although this can be mentioned). With regard to recent deletions, do you suggest to create a List of human rights activists killed in Russia? If so, I have no objections. Why not? Biophys (talk) 03:22, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I would be in favour of a List of human rights activists killed in Russia. I appreciate the contributions of Russian and international experts who are aware of murders that may not have been widely reported in the English-speaking world.--99.245.253.158 (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

As far as human rights activists are concerned, surely Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch compile and update such lists? My impression is that, until recently, there have not been very many targeted killings of rights activists (or lawyers, for that matter). It's quite legit, surely, to start making a list by drawing on the obvious sources. After all, Wiki is not for original research but for the collaborative creation of verifiable information into structured articles. Voronov (talk) 09:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Time to rename this page?

I guess this page started out with the list. Then it acquired text discussing significance of the list. If no one else does so, I will add a further 40 names of journalists killed to the Putin period from the IFJ database.

If all participants in discussion, editing, contributions etc can think about this it would be useful. There now exists a list of 322 names of journalists on the IFJ database. That information is derived directly from Russia's two media monitors.

On the other hand, recent additions to the List on the Wiki article refer to press reports of deaths (in Enlgish and in Russian). Perhaps it's good to have that alternative as well?

Any ideas or suggestions?92.25.251.223 (talk) 11:38, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I would second moving this article to a new title. I think "Journalists killed in Russia" would be fitting, but what would be the best is if there was a proposal for a move placed on the Wikipedia:Requested_moves page. For instructions, see the "Requesting a single page move" section on that page. David Straub (talk) 01:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 07:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC)


List of journalists killed in Russia → Journalists killed in Russia — This page is no longer just a list but has expanded into a full overview and article, with extensive annotation and references to recent investigations. Voronov (talk) 07:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • *'''Support''' This page has evolved into more than just a list. While the actual list in the article is quite long, that is perhaps testament to the effort of the editors to compile a comprehensive documentation of journalists killed in Russia. Moreover, the 119 citations is more than most any wiki article and far and beyond simple list articles.David Straub (talk) 18:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Suggest "Killings of journalists in Russia" just sounds more correct. --Cybercobra (talk) 09:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

[1] TITLE - "Journalists Killed in Russia" is probably better since it covers work-related accidents where there may be no deliberate intent to kill, let alone target, a particular journalist, as well as crossfire situations and homicide. This could also become a generic, common, title for companion articles on the handful of countries where deaths are persistently high = " Journalists Killed in (India, Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, Philippines)".

[2] LIST - it's possible to add the missing names from the post-2000 period but since these are already listed and accompanied by photos and narrative on the IFJ database what should be done with the list? Voronov (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Having background information is great, but at the core the intent of this page is still to provide a list of journalists. Many of our featured lists have plenty of narrative, but adding narrative does not mean a list stops being a list.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:17, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
  • Oppose. As Ezhiki has already stated, this page, at its core and roots, is a list, and, although it contains large amounts of narrative, it is still a list, and, as a list, it deserves to be referred to and entitled as such. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to Yozhiki and Laurinavicius I should clarify that the Wiki list does not contain anything up to ONE HUNDRED NAMES that are now available online, in Russian and English, in the IFJ database. This is clear from the 1990s entries in the Wiki list where I have now added those missing names, with links to the IFJ database where a narrative on each is available. (In all cases, the basic sources on which everyone draws are the same: the Glasnost Defence Foundation or GDF and the Centre for Journalism in Extreme Situations or CJES, who cover the Russian media, checking the stories printed there, and also have their own correspondents and specialists throughout Russia.)

The English version of the present Wiki list adds one name in 1992, subsequently not retained by the Russian monitor who then listed that person; the Russian version of the list on Vikipedia contains the name of another person, not recorded by Russia monitors. In total, two extras (one doubtful) as against one hundred or so missing names.

Don't know if that affects the argument, for or against changing the name of this page. Two separate issues are [1] whether to add all these other names and a brief description, keeping the list here, [2] raising the formal status of this page from its original basic List category to that of Article, which by now seems clearly necessary and justified. Voronov (talk) 01:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

If retitling the article (it is most certainly no longer just a list), or separating the article from the list, will reduce the subject's visibility on Wiki then it probably ought to stay as it is.

In either case, the Wikipedia status of List is way out of date, whether you're looking at the Russia project or those on journalism or even crime. How can those ratings be upgraded to article status? Voronov (talk) 04:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Filling gaps in the list

I have added about 40 names to the Yeltsin period, with links to the source. For the time being they are numbered to make them stand out in the already existing list of names. A sizable number should also be added to the years of the Putin presidency (the corrected totals in the table included in the "Timeline and Statistics" section indicate how many are still missing). The list is a necessary beginning. What these figures MEAN is entirely another matter.

If the prosecutor's office and police have conducted a proper investigation and, better still, if they have brought someone to court it is easier to judge whether those journalists were killed for their investigations and publications (or as part of a private feud, a business conflict, or an attempted robbery). In some cases it seems clear, even without a trial, that the journalist did not die for the work he or she did: for example, Yelena Roshchina, who edited a children's paper. In other cases, observers attending trials (e.g. that in Tajikistan of Ilyas Shurpayev's alleged killers) have expressed concern about irregularities in the proceedings. Voronov (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Those who read both languages can now see the two hundred names listed on the Russian page, many of which should now be added in English for the Putin period. How many are still missing can be gauged from the table of deaths and trials. Voronov (talk) 08:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Again it should be stressed that the list only refers to the type of death. Why someone died and, most important, if they were deliberately targeted, is another matter. A recent assessment of the available information is that up to 60 of the journalists (a generic term, of course) who are listed as dead or missing here were murdered because of the work they were doing as investigative reporters. Voronov (talk) 08:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

List expanded (200 names), updated & annotated, May 2010

Drawing on the IFJ database, and on the extensive information accumulated on the CJES' Memorium website, dates have been added, types of incident indicated (IFJ classification), and many more names included. Also included a while back were stats for deaths from various violent causes and the increasing number of trials.

The most common cause of death is peacetime homicide, followed by crossfire fatalities. A few other categories also appear (terrorist act, missing, incident not confirmed). This leaves out the key element of assessment - deciding when a fatality was definitely or possibly linked to the deceased journalist's investigations and publications. Probably, a general statement about this could now be included in the main text.

Apart from that, Where should this article go now? Voronov (talk) 08:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the article is quite good. It would help if there were some images, say 4-5, including images from crime scenes and portraits of some of those who died.David Straub (talk) 20:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

There are up to 200 images on the IFJ database or Memorium which could be freely used here. If someone knows how to do it ... Voronov (talk) 03:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

What is the status of the copy rights for these photos? The problem is that any photos that are under copyright cannot be used in wikipedia. So if the photo's used on Memorium are originally from a newspaper, those photos probably could not be used. Unless the Memorium website owns the rights to the photos used and can permit wikipedia to use them, then it is unlikely that they could be used. Are there any other sources?David Straub (talk) 17:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

What is still missing from this article?

All the themes related to this subject have now been included in the article, it seems to me.

The article has numerous links to the journalists-in-russia online database, the major new resource based directly on Russian information-gathering and records about deaths of journalists. Anyone can go there to find more verified information about particular cases. This is in additon to the journalists whose killings already form separate Wiki articles, e.g. Dmitry Kholodov, Anna Politkovskaya.

Photos are a possible addition but being encyclopaedic in approach - which I understand to mean accurate, dispassionate, fact-based and non-speculative - the suggestion that murder scene photos be among them seems inappropriate. The 2009 IFJ report, "Partial Justice", of which I was co-author, deliberately avoided pictures of blood-soaked pavements, whether of Togliatti in 2003 (Sidorov) or more recently in Moscow (Jan 2009, Markelov), in favour of photographs of the living. Voronov (talk) 07:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find any other dead journalists lists in Wikipedia

From time to time in the news I see journalists dying, but where can I find a full list of dead journalists (by not a natural cause). Having all the stats we may try to see, is the situation in Russia more specific than in the rest world.

Some stats are here: 2007 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed07.html 2006 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed06.html 2005 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed05.html 2004 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed04.html 2003 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed03.html 2002 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed02.html 2001 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed01.html 2000 http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed00.html

Sure, it would make sense to create such lists for different countries, and especially Iraq.Biophys 21:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

None of the links work.

-G

I agree that this is a big problem. It certainly merits mention somewhere and needs to be addressed, but there is a question as to where, probably, which is why I thought it best to go to the talk page instead of boldly sticking this stuff in there. There needs to be some discussion. I have also mentioned this problem on the talk pages for Vladimir Putin and Alexander Litvinenko for lackof another place to discuss this problem and build consensus. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 19:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Belarus?

If someone wants to start a list for Belarus - this could help. Malick78 (talk) 18:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

How many russians journalist was killed in Ukrajina in 2014? --195.91.8.187 (talk) 19:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)Bynk

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Vladimir Sirotin ?

Does anyone know whether to add Vladimir Sirotin (who died at age 50 in Moscow between 2013?-2016?)? Is his name missing from this memorial honor roll?Political Repression in RussiaObituary: Vladimir Sirotin -Yohananw (talk) 23:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Links vandalized ?

This spam link http://journalists-in-russia.org/ seems to have replaced original links in the article and references.Yohananw (talk) 23:41, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Propaganda

The obvious intention of this english wiki is to say that the Russian government murders journalists. But where's the "journalist killed" in other countries?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.230.81.124 (talk) 23:20, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You are obviously too lazy to do a search for yourself. Ever here of a google search? J.delanoygabsadds 23:22, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I say this because this is discussion and I am entitled to my opinion on here, but I hate it when people here call this propaganda or ask why this is not the case in other countries. It is so painfully obvious who are responsible for the murders of these journalists that it is worth noting such information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.39.17 (talk) 07:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
You are obviously too lazy to do a search for yourself"". There is only list for Russia and tiny Tajikistan. This list should be deleted. Wiki is an informational rather than propaganda source! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pereleshin (talk • contribs) 00:39, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

You can find lists (in English) for all the countries in the world where journalists have been killed doing their job on the website of the Committee to Protect Journalists Journalists killed since 1992. Voronov (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but journalists killed in Iraq are filed under "Iraq", even when killed by US troops. April_8,_2003_journalist_deaths_by_U.S._fire. It would be more appropriate to create lists per country doing the killing, irrespective of the actual place where the journalists where killed.

This page was obviously created for propaganda. Some of the deaths enlisted were caused by Chechens militiamen, known assailants or accidents. If you consider all of them "Russian KGB's coverup" I'm okay with it, just create a page about all the American journalists killed or dead to violent death (the list will be long). --151.33.114.229 (talk) 06:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Fine, be sure to include circumstances, as this page does. You will find no advanced country has such a list in modern times.

It is ambiguous, in a way, for a through dictatorship, like North Korea, has no such list, as the independent journalists don’t exist in the first place. The Russian autocracy is neither one thing or t’other.

Say hello to Putin for me (g). 213.205.251.12 (talk) 17:44, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

The manipulative scope of such lists

The similar list for a country like USA so far makes sense, but overall such lists are a political tool since the organizations such the CPJ that compile them decide whether a journalist "can reasonably be believed to have been killed by someone while they were reporting or because of their status as a journalist" in a totally arbitrary way.

Journalists in the USA get regularly killed in circumstances that do not meet the criteria and they do not get counted, and it is accurate, but for countries that belong "the enemies list" like Russia almost all deaths of journalists are counted as if they met the criteria, while in reality they do not: just look at 2016-2017 cases listed in the this article; they are not better than, say, 1998 murder case from the USA: http://www.thedailybeast.com/missouri-governor-halts-execution-of-marcellus-williams-after-questions-about-dna-evidence and many more cases that did not end up in the article about the USA.

So the question is, should we update the article about the USA with many more cases that do not really have anything to do with journalists' activities, or should we clean up the current article where all of the dubious and even clearly unrelated cases of deaths get piled on anyway? 95.27.82.241 (talk) 09:00, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

More rigour is better, so remove some doubtful names. However, Journalists’ professional organizations are interested in protecting their members, and have long complained about the peculiar difficulties (to say no more) of reporting in Russia. There are not similar complaints about reporting in the USA, with its tradition of a free press. It is, then, easier to be suspicious about Russia.

All this temporising by Putin supporters about murder in Russia reminds me of an old Monty Python skit. “As a naval officer, I would like to say how shocked I am at the recent allegations of cannibalism in the Royal Navy. It is a well known fact that we now have the problem relatively under control!” 213.205.251.12 (talk) 00:10, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

there was someone who vandalized this articel

I know his IG account, I have prove that he vandalized it. Hanssitinjak (talk) 05:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Killed in Kyiv isn't killed in Russia

2022 section: "23 March – Oksana Baulina was killed by shelling in **Kyiv** while reporting for The Insider" 2001:4C4E:2492:0:9EC7:6D12:448:5ADA (talk) 09:44, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

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