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Tell, me the reason for adding the flag, Cukiger. Provide me one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to sell the ultra stuff that you'll be trying to add. No, it was not an "uprising of the Macedonian people". I'm not adding this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags although the poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were identified as Bulgarians and ued Bulgarian symbols. It's even written in the documents of IMRO. In the interest of consensus and to avoid never-ending edit-wars this flag best not be put in controversial situations like this one. You have no good reasons as to why the flag should be here and rescruiting other people to revert it is not doing you a good favour. --LaveolT 15:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Just read what bijornos wrote and try to prove that there are any Bulgarians who live in Kruševo and the other regions where the Ilinden Uprising took place. Otherwise, the Red-Black flag can only be Macedonian. Cukiger (talk) 22:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
No need for a new header - I'm removing it. Firstly, we're not talking about now, about the present-day situation, but about the past, history etc. Most scholars agree that this was an uprising with a Bulgarian character, lead by Bulgarians and amongst the Bulgarian population. I'm sorry to say it, but what you're doing is a rather silly POV-push. I'm not trying to promote it as exclusively Bulgarioan and it'd be nice if you didn't go to a radical direction. I told you to speak to User:Revizionist who despite being Macedonian is of the same belief as me. This is a historical fact. You don't like it - try a forum or something where you can share your knowledge on the subject. Oh, and be aware that using sock or meatpuppets is stricktly forbidden in Wikipedia. --LaveolT 12:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
I certainly did not add the flag because of nationalist reasons.. this is absurd. I'm not adding the flag of the city of Varna to that list, but the flag of the Ilinden Uprising. If you believe that Macedonians were Bulgarians around 1903 I feel sorry for your nationalist view, but do not make the people believe that it was so. I am not asking any user from here. You ask Bijornos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cukiger (talk • contribs) 02:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, right. So far you haven't provided a single valid reason why the flag should be there. Until you do so there will be no flag. And I told you to talk to User:Revizionist - he is of the belief the Uprising was Bulgarian. --LaveolT 06:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Cukiger and Raso
Are you gonna try and discuss the issue or you're just make countless reverts? I aks you again to provide reasons why this should be included here. And there was nothing in the Pulevski article to support your claims. Are you making fun of the other editors? --LaveolT 19:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
That goes for Raso as well - provide reasons, don't just troll. Cause it is trolling - you can't just tell a user to "Stop. Right now." What the hell was that? You the boss around here? Not likely. For the tenth time - provide a valid reason as to why this flag should be here. A valid one backed up with reliable sources. --LaveolT 13:30, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
What shall we discuss? There's nothing to discuss about. The uprising was organized by Macedonians and Vlachs from Macedonia. If you think it was Bulgarian, ok, i don't care. Read what Pulevski has written, dumby. That Macedonians are a people, not a subgroup of Bulgars. Cukiger (talk) 03:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
What the hell is meat puppeting? Is that Wikipedian? Plus you are the guy reverting and acting like a child. I was the one to add the flag and you started reverting! Go back to the BULGARIAN WIKIPEDIA, there you can make big points with your propaganda. Cukiger (talk) 03:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Laveol, stop the random accusations of sockpuppetry and meatpuppeting, please. That's not an excuse for revert-warring. And don't just bring Gligan in any time some guy disagrees with you. Discuss before reverting, people. BalkanFever 03:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Random? Bijornos has edited only articles that Cukiger has. And he only does so when an edit-war is going on. That pretty much sums it up. I asked them both to give me a reliable source about the issue but they refuse to. And that's it. They don't wanna act constructive and provide a source and just stik to the old nonsense that "the uprising was Macedonian". Ha-ha (it was a sarcastic laugh, not a real one). I told them to go talk to User:Revizionist on the issue since he's far more reasonable, but I hit a rock on that...again. --LaveolT 09:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
The black - red flag of IMRO apeared first in the 1920-s. In 1903 Ilinden - Preobrajenie Uprising insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, by Hugh Pulton. [1]Jingby (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
References
^National military history museum of Bulgaria, fond 260
After the First World War the territory of the present-day Republic of Macedonia came under the direct rule of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia and was sometimes termed "Southern Serbia". Together with a portion of today's Serbia, it belonged officially to the newly formed Vardar Banovina. An intense program of Serbianization was implemented during the 1920s and 1930s when Belgrade enforced a Serbian cultural assimilation process on the region. Between the two world wars in Vardar Banovina, the regional Macedonian dialects were declared as Serbian and the Serbian language was introduced in the schools and administration as official language. There was implemented a governmental policy of assassinations and assimilation. The Serbian administration in Vardar Banovina felt insecure and that provoked it's brutal reprisals on the local peasant population.
IMRO began sending armed bands called cheti into Greek and Yugoslav Macedonia and Thrace to assassinate officials and stir up the spirit of the oppressed population. In 1923 and 1924 during the apogee of interwar military activity according to IMRO statistics in the region of Yugoslav (Vardar) Macedonia operated 53 chetas (armed bands), 36 of which penetrated from Bulgaria, 12 were local and 5 entered from Albania. The aggregate membership of the bands was 3245 komitas (guerilla rebels) led by 79 voivodas (commanders), 54 subcommanders, 41 secretaries and 193 couriers. 119 fights and 73 terroristic acts were documented. Serbian casualties were 304 army and gendarmery officers, soldiers and paramilitary fighters, more than 1300 were wounded. IMRO lost 68 voivodas and komitas, hundreds were wounded.
Where is the connection to RoM. I am going to remove it, if proves will not be provided. Jingby (talk) 07:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Vlado Chernozemski entered the region of Vardar Banovina with IMRO bands and participated in more than 15 battles with the Serbian police. At one point, Chernozemski planned to enter the League of Nations building in Paris and detonate himself to protest against the passivity of the world organization over the Macedonian Question but never carried out the plot. He assassinated Alexander I of Yugoslavia in the port of Marseille, France on October 9, 1934, and was himself killed immediately afterwards, 10 days before his 37th birthday.
Why died this men and the others as him? With an aim the flag of Kingdom of Yugoslavia to be shown as Macedonian or what? Jingby (talk) 17:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Reasons
Enough reasons were given why the flag shouldn't be here. None were provided for the opposite. Give some now or it'll have to be removed again. --LaveolT 10:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Aren't you tired of your own propaganda? Well, I am, and I am sure others are too. Cukiger (talk) 15:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't rant, but give a reason. Otherwise I'll remove it on account there's no reason for the flag to be there. Either try some constructive discussion or stop reverting. Let's say I give you time till tomorrow to think of something. --LaveolT 16:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
No reason or prove were given! Jingby (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Krste Misirkov, a highly controversial writer who alternated between pan-Bulgarian and pan-Macedonian nationalism throughout his lifetime described the IMORO in his pro-Macedonian publication "On Macedonian Matters" written in the wake of the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising as Bulgarian officials working for Bulgarian interests and linked in name, and in church and school matters, to the people of Bulgaria, their country and their interests. Misirkov wrote:
We can call the Uprising whatever we like, but in fact it was only a partial movement. It was, and still is, an affair of the Exarchists: that is, a Bulgarian ploy to settle the Macedonian question to its own advantage by creating a Bulgarian Macedonia... If the autonomy of Macedonia should result from the present Uprising, the Macedonian question will be settled not to the advantage of the Macedonians but of the Bulgarians, for the Committee, as we have seen earlier, is working behind a Bulgarian front... Thus the reason why the Uprising failed is perfectly clear: from the very outset it was established on the wrong basis instead of being a general Macedonian Uprising it was a partial insurrection with Bulgarian overtones. The only Macedonian Slavs who played a leading part in the Uprising were those who called themselves Bulgarians.
And how this flags from Ilinden Uprising and IMORO are historical flags of your country now?Jingby (talk) 07:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
The existence of a separate Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.
The following is an excerpt that describes this process from Palmer and King. It describes how language, history and religion were used to develop the "Macedonian" ethnicity:
It is reasonable to hold that, prior to World War II, the Slavs
of Yugoslav Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarians [..]
The Yugoslav communist policy has encouraged the national consciousness of the Macedonian Slavs [..]
Sources:
1. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65 , ISBN0691043566
2. Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, CT Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200 Jingby (talk) 16:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Bulgarian School in Kruševo (1910)
This is Bulgarian school in Krushevo from this period. The people considered themselves Bulgarians. As the British researcher of the Balkans H. N. Brailsford wrote in his book Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future: "The moment for which the Bulgarian population had been preparing for ten years arrived on the festival of the Prophet Elias — the evening of Sunday, August the 2nd, 1903." - " H. N. Brailsford, "Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future", Methuen & Co., London, 1906, part V. The Bulgarian movement, chapter 11. The General Rising of 1903 in Monastir, p. 148. Jingby (talk) 18:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Krusevo Republic
Jingiby keeps deleting this flag without a source, even though I kept stating it was a predessecor for an autonomous or independent Macedonia. FOTW Now stop editing warring because of your POV. Mactruth 98.243.158.123 (talk) 16:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear frends
Here is not nationalistic phantasy forum. In this encyclopedia exist articles with added references and sources. Pleace, read them:
I do not state also, removed flags are Bulgarian or Serbian, regardless the fact they were used mainly by Bulgarians[2][3][4][5] and Serbians.(also Aromanians, Grecomans, Croats and Slovens) But they were not symbols of ethnic Macedonians nor or of RoM. Especially the flag of IMRO from 1920-s. It was terrorist and nationalistic, hard pro - Bulgarian organisation.
The events in Krushevo during Ilinden Uprising as seen by the American daily New York Times, Aug. 14, 1903
And again;
According to Hugh Pulton in 1903 in Krushevo the insurgents ...despite these promises the insurgents flew Bulgarian flags everywhere and in many places the uprising did entail attacks on Muslim Turks and Albanians... "Who Are the Macedonians?" - Page: 57, [6]
Regards. Jingby (talk) 18:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I doubt if somebody will read this and face the facts: [7],
[8]Jingby (talk) 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
Please, tell, me one reason for adding this flags. Provide only one non-nationalistic reason. But dont try to say the "uprising was ethnic Macedonian ". The poeple behind the uprising self-identified as Bulgarians, were described as Bulgarians and used Bulgarian symbols. It's written in the official documents of IMORO, also. Just read the articles in Wikipedia. Jingby (talk) 09:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Тука спаѓа и книгата на Христо Силјанов, првиот том на "Ослободителните борби на Македонија", кој на македонската јавност се презентира 75 години по неговото излегување од печат во Софија. Без разлика на пробугарската ориентација на авторот, изданието претставува можеби досега најдобро напишана книга за македонската револуционерна борба и за Илинденското востание. Поздравувајќи ги присутните, нејзиниот автор, академик Катарџиев, подвлече дека книгата е пишана со намера да даде објективен, деполитизиран пресек на тоа за што се борел и го доживеал македонскиот народ во тие сто години. "Единствена идеолошка премиса е постоењето на македонската нација и на македонската држава", рече тој." Jingby (talk) 10:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't be such a hypocrite. You are claiming that the article is POV and that you are not saying the flags are Bulgarian, but you are doing just that. Köbra | Könverse 11:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
The flags were used by people and organisation with Bulgarian consciousness, but I am not going to add this flag anywhere in the list of Bulgarian flags. We have to be tolerant. Jingby (talk) 12:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
24 hours
Macedonists, I give you 24 hours to prove both flags were used in 1903 by ethnic Macedonians or in Republic of Macedonia and both flags were not used in Ottoman Empire in 1903 from Bulgarians, Greeks and Aromanians. If reliable references will not be provided as until now, I will revert your stupid nationalstic propaganda again. Jingby (talk) 07:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
The first time in its history that Macedonia was recognized as a different entity was in 1934 by the Comintern. During the Second World War, Tito admitted that the partisan units from Macedonia represented their own nationality and in 1946 Macedonia was given equal status as a constituent republic within the new Yugoslav Federation.
[9] - Macedonia, a Surprising Country, Anamaria G. Dutceac – Segesten, Department of Government and Politics, University of Maryland at College Park. Jingby (talk) 07:38, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, I am waiting no more. It is clear, you have any arguments. However I decided to accept the ideas of Future and Kekrops as compromise and to leave the flag from Krushevo, despite the fact, it was used by Bulgarians, Greek Slavophones, Greek Latinophones and Aromanians. But I am going to remove the black-red flag from IMRO, which have been used from this organisation till today as official flag, i.e. this is a flag from political organisation, not historical flag. This flag is uploaded also in Wikimedia as official IMRO flag see here:[10] and also can be seen on many pictures as IMRO - flag including uploaded as oficcial IMRO logo (see below). Another casual examples: Today flag from Bulgarian IMRO organisation in Madrid , Today Bulgarian IMRO flag used from local Bulgarians in RoM in 2008 , The leader from Bulgarian IMRO, Krasimir Karakachanov, the red-black flags appears rear him. This flag is also official flag from IMRO in RoM. The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms - see here: [11] This flag was never used in Ilinden uprising, nor in the next 20 years. You can provide any reliable reference about this nonsence, I am shure, you too. It appeared first in 1920-s and any info is about ideas this flag to be adоpted as flag from the Macedonian state before 1990. During the Uprising every local IMRO organisation had own banner as this banners shown below or the next: The banner from Загоричани (Βασιλειάς), or this one: he banner from Smolyan , or this one: The banner from Заберново. Also, I will be correct. I will remove only this political flag presented here as flag from the Ilinden Uprising. Please, learn the history before your manipulations. See below another examples: right|thumb|150px|VMRO-BG logo.
^"Macedonian-Adrianopolitan Revolutionary Committee, Lozengrad, 1903" is inscribed. "История на България", Том 7, Издателство на Българската академия на науките, София, 1991, стр. 495. Now kept in the National Museum of Military History in Sofia.
^National military history museum of Bulgaria, fond 260
Revert-warring
Jingiby, the anon with the New Jersey IP 98.* is User:Mactruth, a legitimate editor.
But, Jingiby and Mactruth, you both know that you are not in a very good position to test your luck about revert warring, right?
Right, but this is not an argument to tolerate the nationalostic POV not supported from any arguments. The topic was locked but the Macedonists provided any reliable references. Now again blind reverts on shifts and bla-bla. Jingby (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Future, I cannot have an intellectual conversation with someone who is narrow minded as Jingiby, this is why I did not respond to his comments in the first place. I provided sources for the flags, and each time when he was shown to be wrong, he changed his argument. Recently he has again changed his stance to stating FOTW is not a reliable source. These are things not worth wasting time on. Future, I'll wait for your response.
ps: look at the editing of the article to get a more detailed look at the situation. 98.243.158.123 (talk) 15:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:
Reliable sourced articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. Regards! See:Wikipedia:VerifiabilityJingby (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The only thing I can state is to look at your sources and see how "reliable" they are. Mactruth (talk) 19:06, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable. Jingby (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Proposal of national flag - Image by António Martins, 19 February 1999
A red over black flag was proposed as the national Macedonian flag in 1903 but was never officially adopted.
Jaume Ollé, 24 October 1998
The black and red flag is used today by the football club Vardar from Skopje. His supporters are called Komiti (fighters for freedom).
The real Macedonian flag was red with a golden gun and knife crossed in saltire in the middle of the flag, or in the upper left corner of the flag. The red background symbolized the blood of all Macedonians who had died or were about to die for the freedom of Macedonia. The golden gun and knife meant fight till death, and death for every one who will spy and betray the oath they had given in the name of freedom of Macedonia.
Goce G., 18 March 2001
The traditional Macedonian flag had two equal horizontal parts, the upper half being red and the lower black. This traditional Macedonian flag shad also a symbolic meaning - the same meaning as the slogan of the Macedonian fighters from the beginning of the century: "Freedom (red) or Death (black)". During the 1903 Ilinden uprising and the Kruševo republic the formal flag of Macedonian fighters was black and red.
Željko Heimer, 13 March 2002
Red color might mean freedom, but the original meaning was the blood of all Macedonians who died fighting for the freedom of their motherland, Macedonia. The black color symbolized the death of Goce Delčev, the ideologist of Macedonian freedom movement in the late 1890s and the beginning of the XXth century, more accurately, until 4 May 1903, when he was killed after having been surrounded by the Turk soldiers in the village of Banica, now in Greece.
Goče G., 18 March 2001
Eh, Macedonists ... Jingby (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
You can copy and paste! Good for you! Not only that but you can copy and paste onto multiplesites, mommy should be proud considering so many people find it difficult to even turn on a computer! The only thing I got out of this is "red over black flag was proposed as the national Macedonian flag in 1903" and red meant "Freedom or blood" and black meant "death (death of Goce)" Mactruth (talk) 14:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The Party has a coat of arms, a flag and an anthem.
The Party coat of arms is a stylized-shaped lion with a crown in gold colour pictured on a red shield. Above the shield is a red ribbon with yellow letters inscribed 1893-1990, and below the shield on a red ribbon is isnscribed with yellow letters the name of the party VMRO-DPMNE.
The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms.
The flag and the coat of arms of the party are shown on the party website. However, the statutes mentioned above clearly state that the emblem should be placed in upper left corner, not in the middle as shown on that image.
Željko Heimer, 20 November 2001
1893 is the year when the Macedonian national-liberation organization called VMRO was formed and the year 1990 symbolizes the year when VMRO-DPMNE was formed, claiming to be the successor of the historical VMRO.
Zdravko Saveski, 20 October 2002 Jingby (talk) 13:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
historical VMRO = revolutionary, modern VMRO = political. Is that very difficult to comprehend, think for a minute and let it settle into your brain. It hopefully will click, eventually. With "letters inscribed 1893-1990" meaning when the REVOLUTIONARY committee began and ended. Mactruth (talk) 14:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
No more jokes
Flag of IMRO.
The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour.
[12]
The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms.[13]Jingby (talk) 14:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
It is well known there are two political VMRO in Macedonia, and one political VMRO in Bulgaria but it should be noted the VMRO political party in Bulgaria was created after VMRO-DPMNE. Again, you try to prove that because modern VMRO is a political party, that historical VMRO wasn't revolutionary. Odd argument I must say Mactruth (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Според мои сознанија, ВМРО е формирана на 17 јуни 1920 година од Тодор Александров. Токму на 70-годишнината од тој чин, на 17 јуни 1990 година, се одржа основачкиот Конгрес на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, што не е случајно. Оваа партија го зеде за свој симбол знамето на врховистичката ВМРО на Ванчо Михајлов: црвено-црно со златен лав. [14] According to an article from the Macedonian journalist Spase Shuplinovski in the Macedonian mainstream daily newspaper Utrinski vesnik - issue 1166, October 16, 2006 the flag of the Macedonian party VMRO - DPMNE was adopted from Ivan Mihaylov's IMRO, which was established in 1920 and was banned in 1934.Jingby (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
That may be true, but the VMRO flag (red/black) was also a proposed national flag of 1903, but it was not officially used aka unofficial, simply because the flag was established in 1920 may mean VMRO used the proposed flag as their official revolutionary flag. Mactruth (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientifis Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7.
"...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag. Jingby (talk) 19:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Flag with initials used on it. The Bulgarian/Macedonian name that sounds something like "Vnutrashnya Makedonska Revolucionarna Organizacija." BMRO fought primarily against Turks for the independence of Bulgaria and Macedonia, and as might be seen from the flag, the ideology was anarchic-revolutionary (as were the methods). The group was soon (at the beginning of the 20th Century) split between those wanting Macedonia as a part of Bulgaria and those struggling for the independence of Macedonia. Therefore, to cut the story short, today we have VMRO both in modern Bulgaria and Macedonia (where it is called VMRO-DPMNE), both being modern democratic parties that have long forsaken their anarcho-revolutionary methods.
Željko Heimer, 24 February 2002 Jingby (talk) 13:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Again, it states "Bulgarian/Macedonian" meaning Bulgarian and Macedonian, not Macedonian-Bulgarian. Again, my argument has been consistent that VMRO was not only Bulgarian and it was 2 branches: one fought to make Macedonia part of Bulgaria, and the other fought to make Macedonia independent, and this source confirms it. Simply because it is a political party now, doesn't mean it wasn't a revolutionary committee in the past. Mactruth (talk) 14:17, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
This site is not reliable source. Jingby (talk) 14:34, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Your the one using Pro Macedonia and Macedonia-Science as sources, not me Mactruth (talk) 14:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Last statement to Jingiby
It is clear you are a nationalist with the use of racial slurs such as Macedonist. I have read your statements, the problem is you argue to use reliable sources, but put your foot in your mouth by not even following your own rules, let's look at your sources:
You in essence give your own opinion with "sources" with are either unreliable or bias, then claim that is good enough to do as you please without discussion. These are the sources I gave:
Remember, it is as easy for me to create a map or flag then update it to an image uploader and state its from the "Republic of Macedonia Museum" as it is for you to use Pro-Macedonia which has already done the work for you. Your argument is an opinion with nationalist emotions, nothing else, and you have changed your argument many times in an attempt to find one that works, but they hold no ground. Mactruth (talk) 19:39, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
First, Macedonist is not a racial slur and I suggest you refer from such comments. Then, I want to know what exactly you use your sources for. You say Britannica, but what does it source? That IMRO was an ethnic Macedonian organisation? Don't make me laugh. As for the flags' site, it says it quotes this one. I don't know what it is but it's certainly not reliable. And again I want to hear a valid argument for the inclusion of those two flags given the fact that the uprising itself didn't have an "ethnic Macedonian" character or anything, the flags don't represent the modern nation and weren't meant to. You've benn tag-playing for a couple of months now with no reasons behind your actions. Oh, and as for all the books representing the "pro-Bulgarian bias" they all do exist and it's up to you to prove they don't. --LaveolT 20:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
The term "Macedonist" can be offensive to ethnic Macedonians. I stated several times that IMRO was an organization which included both Bulgarian and Macedonian, the difference is Jingiby has been stating several times that it is purely Bulgarian that is why I showed the Britannica source. Sorry if I made you laugh because you couldn't comprehend the argument I stated earlier. For the flag site, first you should realize the site is neither Bulgarian or Macedonian influenced and whether the quote was on a reliable source, I have to think there was a reason they posted it. I don't know if you have realized something but the Krusevo flag = Socialist Macedonia flag (with a star) so I'd have to disagree that the flags didn't represent the modern nation. I didn't start the issue, Jingiby used biased sources, and if a site like "pro-Macedonia" and "Macedoniaontheweb" are frequently used, then why do you complain "Maknews" or "historyofmacedonia" not to be used. Mactruth (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
If the term "Macedonist" can be offensive to ethnic Macedonians, why some scientists from Skopie used the term "Macedonism"? For example - Друговац, Миодраг. Историjа на македонската книжевност, Скопje 1990, p.73. I am agree that IMRO was not purely Bulgarian - it included and some of the other nationalities (minorities) in Macedonia. Maybe, the problem is that it is very difficult to find evidences from the epoch that among the other nationalities in IMRO were some Macedonians as an etnic belonging, different from Bulgarians or from other Macedonians (by region). Aromanians for example have the designation Macedonians even today. The problem is that "Macedonians" was used as geographical term and this fact was admited in the second half of XX century by some of the former IMRO active members (and later communists leaders) as Dimitar Vlahov (Memoirs, Skopje 1970, p. 21).
P.S. I am impressed from the bold manner to underrate the sources. Fot instant - the source isn't Pro-Macedonia. It is obviously that the source is the significant research by Hristo Silyanov "The Liberation Struggles of Macedonia". Promacedonia is an electronic library which provide the opportunite to acquaint with this and many other books.--GrigorG (talk) 00:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Macedonists, your stupid cunnings are boring. Even Bulgarian Academy of Science is biased and your free sites and their comments are reliable source? As per Britanica, your biased and sketchy comments on the texts have nothing to do with its content. FOTW (Flags of the World) is a site originally established by Giuseppe Bottasini, and devoted to vexillology. The site is fed with news and images posted to the FOTW mailing list and with other contributions from interested readers and visitors!!! Jingby (talk) 06:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Since Bulgarians consider Macedonians to be Bulgarians since ever, every flag in the list could have note 'considered to be Bulgarian in Bulgaria'. I whonder why you don't want to make the Vergina Sun flag Bulgarian, it's such a mighty symbol. :) But here I'll show you a Bulgarian source from th 19th century that kills the whole Bulgarian propaganda that Macedonians are Bulgarians. Read and cry, Jiggy. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Macedonian_questionThe Macedonian QuestionCukiger (talk) 08:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
WTF are "cunnings"? Please show some proves that these craps are real words. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 12:28, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Cukiger, If there was some Bulgarian propaganda in XIX c. in MK, the main performers were Macedonian Bulgarians, especially until 1870. I didn't find a reason to cry, on account of the source you pointed above. The macedonistic propaganda uses this "source" actively, but I didn't red some exlantions who were these early macedonists, why only one author wrote about them? If you red something serious, help me with information and point it. On my side I can point BG historiography in which this article have explanation as a part of the personal hostilities berween Slaveykov and Shapkarev ("one of our confreres").--GrigorG (talk) 19:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I also would like to thank to Cukiger for pointing to this nice source from the newspaper Macedonia, in pure Bulgarian language at the end of 19th century. It is certainly worth reading and kills all Macedonist propaganda. Let me quote a little from this nice source:
We have heard from the Macedonists many times that they are not apparently Bulgarians but Macedonians, progeny of the ancient Macedonians, and we have always waited for some proof of this, but such proof never came. Macedonists never showed the basis of this opinion of theirs. They persist in their Macedonian origin but they never convince anyone of notice. We read in History that there was a small people called Macedonians; but we never knew who they were or of what tribe, and the few words in Greek writers refute completely such a proposition. Furthermore, after the conquest of Macedonia by the Romans, there is not even a trace of such Macedonians. We find on this place various other peoples; however, we do not see any Macedonians. What became of them and in which people they transformed we do not know because history do not tell us. ...
... Some Macedonists differentiate themselves from Bulgarians by no other reason than this: they say, are pure Slavs while Bulgarians are Tatars (sic), and I don't know what else. ... It is not hard to show all the groundlessness of such proposition. When Bulgars fused with Slavs not only in Macedonia but also in other regions of the Balkan peninsula, I don't know why the Macedonian fusion would be of one kind while the Thracian and Bulgarian fusion would be of another kind. Such [Macedonists'] reasons can be given only by stupid children who still don't know what is a historic evidence.
This is Petko Slaveykov at his best. This words are even truer today than when they were written. About the history and reasons for the Macedonism there are many books. In English I can point to the introductory chapters of the Carnegie Report (written by American and French authors). It has much to do with the assimilatory doctrine of Ilija Garashanin "Nacertanje" which was implemented very stringently in Macedonia ("the south of Old Serbia) by Cvijic and Novakovic. --Lantonov (talk) 11:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
flag
"Come brothers, Moslems, come and fight against your and our enemies! Come, under the flag of autonomous Macedonia!" - source I believe this statement was made in 1903, but I was wondering if people could get more information on it, because if the statement was not referring to Krusevo Republic, I believe it may represent the proposed flag of Macedonia in 1903. Mactruth (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe you should tell your own members about the reliable source statement. Anyways the point was to identify what "flag of autonomous Macedonia" or "banner of aut. Macedonia" meant, whether it was the Krusevo flag or a newly proposed flag, because I have heard that quote before. Mactruth (talk) 15:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I could not find your argument that you wrote in the cliff notes, so I removed it for now. Please provide the statement. Mactruth (talk) 15:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Read again the text, please:
Иако, да бидеме искрени, на манифестациите каде што се појавуваат партиите со предзнак ВМРО, има едни со 16-то кракото сонце, едни со лав, едни со црвено-црното знаме на Александров и т.н. "On the manifestations the parties with abreviation IMRO it has been carried ... the red-black flag of (Todor) Alexandrov...
Have you seen it in the text or no? Jingby (talk) 15:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
It was founded in 1923 from Sofia University professors and scholars, among the MacedonianBulgarians. It was concerned with Macedonia and all branches of the study of its history, culture and social life.
Macedonian Scientific Institute is used also as source for example from the Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe - Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) see here: [16]
If the source was Krasimir Karakachanov I will agree with you, but this is a scientific institution sinse 1920s.
As source here is the book: 100 години Вътрешна Македоно - Одринска Революционна организация ISBN-10: 9548187108, стр. 7 [15] Съставители и редактори: проф. д-р Д. Мичев, доц. Д. Гоцев, Македонски научен институт — София 1994, 100 years IMARO, (in Bulgarian) ISBN-10: 9548187108, Publisher: Macedonian Scientific Institute, Authors: Professor D. Michev, Ph.D. D. Gotsev, Sofia - 1994, p. 7.[17] "...Важна национална характеристика па ВМОРО-ВМРО са и символите, с които тя си служи евангелието с кръстосан нож и револвер, националния трибагреник, революционния химн „Изгрей зора на свободата", революционното черно-червено знаме с изправен лъв и с надпис „Свобода или смърт...". It is description of the historical symbols of IMRO including the red-black flag.
I do not see here nothing biased in the fact that the black-red flag is described as IMRO flag as in all other as in this two sources for example:
1. The statute of Bulgarian Party VMRO-BND, 2008 (in Bulgarian) Art. 3. Par 1. Знаме с правоъгълна форма, разделено на две равни части, като горната част е в червен цвят, а долната - в черен и със златен надпис в средата ВМРО-БНД. Rough translation: Banner with rectangle form and divided in two equal parts. The upper part is in red and the lower part is in black colour.
[18]
2. The statute of Macedonian Party VMRO-DPMNE, 2008 (In Macedonian) Article 5, Par. 3: Партиското знаме е со димензии со однос 2:1 по должина, поделено на црвено-црни полиња, чиј сооднос е еден спрема еден, а во горниот лев агол на црвена основа е поставен партискиот грб. Rough translation: The Party flag has a ratio of 1:2, divided along the length in red-black halves, in ratio one to each other as one to one, and in the upper left corner on the red field is set the Party coat of arms.[19]
Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context. Please Mactruth, explain us what in this context is biased, especially in the flag-description as red-blag historical flag of IMRO. If no, I am going to readd this book again. Jingby (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I will revert you again. All editors and all sources have biases—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. See: [20] Bulgarian position - Bulgarian scientific source. Normal. IMRO in this period was heavy pro - Bulgarian and you know that. Explain what is biased in the position, that the flag is Bulgarian or in the book, or in the site in this occasion. Stop blind reverts, please. See your talk page. You are strictly required to precede every revert with a meaningful explanation and attempt for discussion on the relevant talk pag. Regards. 18:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The insurgents in Krushevo flew also Bulgarian flags everywhere
Why was removed this citation from "Who are the Macedonians" by Hugh Poulton - p. 57. It is in integral connection with the Bulgarian position about the character of the flags used in Krushevo in 1903. If reliable arguments are not provided I will readd this text. Jingby (talk) 16:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Honestly, Jingiby, stop wiki-raping this talk page with this crap. Köbra | Könverse 08:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png
The image Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.
The tags stay until someone explains which is the ethnic flag (with RS of sourse) and gives a proper explanation what the VMRO and Krushova Republic flags are doing here. We know that they are here because of the tag-team edit-warring of Cukiger and Mactruth and since this is the only sheer reason for their inclusion here, the article is utterly POVish. Do not revert me (Mactruth and Cukiger) if you do not have valid reasons for this (stated on the talkpage) --LaveolT 12:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
1995-?
lol i like how instead of the correct "1995-present" there is "1995- ".. like it's eternally changing every other 5 years or something xD150.140.226.104 (talk) 10:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Flags
Please do not remove flags that havereferences. That is count as vandalism and offend to the users.Thanks.-- MacedonianBoy Oui? 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Umm, my friend, all the three references on the Krushevo and IMARO flags are about them being Bulgarian flags :) Fail. Todor→Bozhinov 09:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Fail? Actually, the sources state in Bulgaria, Bulgarians say its theres, sourced with Bulgarian sources. Mactruth (talk) 01:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
IMRO and Krushevo
I invite you again to give any valid reasons why the IMRO and Krushevo flags should be here. They have nothing to do with the modern Macedonian state and were put on the page to represent some sort of false continuity between a pro-Bulgarian organization and an uprising of again what are considered Bulgarian people. You're supposed to give a thorough explanation for every revert you perform, Mactruth. --LaveolT 01:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a list of flags which have been, or are still today, used on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia or by ethnic Macedonians. enough said. Mactruth (talk) 04:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I've missed that one, sorry. Nevertheless I do object the whole "consensus" on the article since it is a result of the edits of a major sockpuppeteer and thererefore do not represent real consensus. Since the article is titled Flags of the Republic of Macedonia, then by logic it should have only flags of the Republic. The IMRO and Krushevo ones were certainly not such. --LaveolT 10:47, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
"Flags of the Republic of Macedonia" means you can't include stuff used before the country was created in 1991 or before it became an autonomous socialist republic in 1946. So basically, IMRO and Krushevo are out for good. Todor→Bozhinov 17:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
First, your argument is speculation. Second, Macedonia was recognized in 1944 and declared independence in 1991, not "created". Third, Republic of Krusevo was a precursor to Republic of Macedonia, and a branch of IMRO fought for an independent Macedonian state (while another branch fought for union with Bulgaria). So, actually, both are valid and are included. Can't wait to see what other argument you come up with. Like I said earlier, the article clearly states:
This is a list of flags which have been, or are still today, used on the territory of the Republic of Macedonia or by ethnic Macedonians. Mactruth (talk) 01:34, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Delete party political flag of IMRO
The article is not about political parties but about 'Flags of the Republic of Macedonia' {https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#Historical_flags}. The caption for the IMRO flag rightly describes it as, "Historical flag of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) used by political parties in Bulgaria and Republic of Macedonia until now". This makes is clear that it is a political party flag, including in Bulgaria. Therefore it makes sense to delete it. Politis (talk) 23:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
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