Talk:List of The Muppet Show episodes

General tidy up of page

I plan on doing a general tidy up of the page, however before I do so I want to outline what I plan to do and get some feedback:

1. Remove the details about the two pilots. I understand the reason for their inclusion in the first place, however they've never been shown in syndication as part of 'The Muppet Show'.

2. Remove the paragraphs giving background info about each season. That's irrelevant material.

3. Airdates - to my mind we should list those airdates for the ITV region that produced the show, ATV. For those three episodes that aired in the London region first, I think we should have a footnote explaining how they first aired outside the region before being screened as part of a repeat package (this type of thing has been done for the Wikipedia entry for Doctor Who's 20th Anniversary Special - although it was first screened in the USA, the date Wikipedia uses is the BBC airdate.)

4. Remove the "episode guide" style for each episode. Listing every sketch/song and whether it was cut on DVD or Disney+ is irrelevant. That type of information can be found on Muppet Wiki, and we can include an external link to their site. All that's necessary for each episode is to list the episode number, the guest star, the airdate and the production number in the "headings box" and underneath write what the main backstage plot and subplot (if that episode has one) was for that episode.

5. Finally, I plan to include a mention of a special compilation show that aired in the UK called 'Best of the Muppets'. This special showed clips from the Rita Moreno and Ethel Merman episodes, and it's airdate explains why some fan researchers mistakenly thought that the Ethel Merman episode aired on that day rather than the correct May date that Wiki User Crazyseiko discovered.

Thoughts or suggestions? David French (talk) 08:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I greatly disagree with these changes. The "episode guide" style for each episode gave very useful information, and removing it all is not helpful. Adding information about the special episode is great - dismantling the rest of the information is not. Please revert the damage you have done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.14.192.102 (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

If you want a full episode guide then you can find one at Muppet Wiki, a link to which is provided at the bottom of the page. David French (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Episode details being removed

Why are all the episode info box being removed? Those are very useful and interesting, and I don’t think removing them is necessary or useful. The alternative is having articles per episode. Fixing episode order does not require making this article less useful or informative --Corma (talk) 23:57, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Unless the person doing this can offer a better explanation for why they have removed a vast majority of this article, I plan on reverting these edits. There is no reason to cut out all of the information about the songs. Grinola (talk) 16:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Version with this info intact is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_The_Muppet_Show_episodes&oldid=1019311765 -- I agree that removing this info is massively unhelpful. People refering to this page are likely looking up specific songs or notable sketches, or edit notes. A blow by blow account of each episode is perhaps excessive, but a one-line synopsis is no use to anyone.

As the person who changed all this, I would ask that you read my message about "General Tidy Up". If people want to know about each song/sketch etc. then they can find that information on web sites such as Muppet Wiki (a link which is included at the bottom of the page). If you look at most "List of..." pages on Wikipedia for other TV series, you'll find that most of them are just one or two lines of synopsis; that's all that's needed. David French (talk) 09:15, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

The way this page is constructed, it echos all of the SNL seasons (example Season 46 in that each sketch is listed in a micro description including the name of the guest star. The Onus is on YOU to provide the evidence that it breaks Wikipedia MOS rules. While this page is long, the general nature of List of (sketch show) episodes just are long. There's no getting out of that. Zinnober9 (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Except that 'The Muppet Show' can't really be described as a "sketch show" like SNL. It was always described as Comedy/Variety - a show-within-a-show if you like. Muppet Wiki's article on The Muppet Show (https://muppet.fandom.com/wiki/The_Muppet_Show) sets it out neatly - "The concept was reminiscent of old-time radio shows like The Jack Benny Program, where the star struggled to put on a weekly show amidst personal problems and an often uncooperative cast." People remember individual episodes of The Muppet Show for the backstage plots, more than they do for the songs and sketches performed in those episodes. If people really want to know about what songs/sketches were performed in each episode, they can find that information in the episode guides on Muppet Wiki. To my mind, this page should follow the same style as similar "List of [x] episodes" on Wikipedia. David French (talk) 00:29, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps you remember individual episodes for the backstage plots, but don't assume that all "people" are the same as you. The existing approach is useful. For example, I was watching an episode last week with my children, and they asked me if a song was an original to the show. I came to this page expecting to be able to see the answer, but it wasn't there. If your answer is "another website has that information", then where is the limiting principle? By design, _everything_ on Wikipedia is available in more detail elsewhere. That's not a reason to have a summary here. This page follows the same style as similar "List of [x] episodes" on Wikipedia, as demonstrated with the SNL example.

You have misinterpreted the meaning of my post. *As a whole* people remember The Muppet Show's backstage plots over the various onstage performances. When you think of an episode, you are more inclined to recall what happened in that episode e.g. Loretta Lynn (that's the episode where they do the show at the railroad station), Carol Burnett (that's the dance marathon episode), Cloris Leachman (that's the episode where the pigs take over). The SNL comparison is poor on two grounds - the first being that the two series have completely different formats. The second, and more importantly, is that contrary to your last post not every single sketch/song is listed in the List of... page. Only one or two are mentioned at best. This page also does not follow other List of... pages. They are more in the style of what I was trying to achieve in rewriting this page. I posted my original intentions back in March, but held off until May before I started as I waited for feedback from other Wiki users; there was none. Once I began there was still no feedback from Wiki users - not even from the moderators. In fact other users even went so far as to correct a few typos I had made. Currently, the page is clunky-looking with far too much information than is necessary. I do not believe I have "damaged" the page in any way. David French (talk) 09:29, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

That you remember the backstage plots more than the sketches does not mean that people *as a whole* remember them that way; you may not be representative, so humility is necessary. It's true that you posted your intention in March, but as a user of this page, I didn't see it. I usually don't look at the talk pages of useful wiki pages to see whether people are planning to remove most of the useful information. it was only after you made the changes that I saw the original idea; had I looked earlier, I would have objected. The people who fixed typos might not have known about the history - it's not an indication that they liked the new format. In contrast, multiple people have reverted your changes; how many people have to tell you that they interpret the changes as damage for you to accept that they might have a point? It would be nice to have input from a moderator to help adjudicate.

I tell you what annyouned me the boxes being rearrange to production code, which goes agasit EVERY SINGLE other wiki page, epsoides can be moved around or even between Series/seasons. I only reverted it back so the content was back to being listed by Broadcast dates.--Crazyseiko (talk) 21:57, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

explanation of numbering

I think the intro to the episode list needs more detail about how numbering is done. There are three "episode numbers", two in the "No." field and the "Prod. Code". What are they? If the parenthesized number is at all important, it should be its own field so it can be sorted on. 🖖 ChristTrekker 🗣 15:04, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The numbers in parentheses appears to be the New York transmission order. Essentially, there was one transmission order for the UK, one transmission order for the New York stations and one transmission order for the Los Angeles stations. The production numbers are the official codes that were assigned to each episode. David French (talk) 22:13, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

production numbering

If 1.01, 1.02, etc. are the episode production numbers, does that indicate the actual order they were produced? Or could multiple episodes have been produced at the same time? Elsquared (talk) 20:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC)