Talk:Lionel Messi/Archive 12

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Free Kick Goals Record

There is very clearly no consensus that this information should be included in the article. Black Kite (talk) 18:01, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Messi broke the record for most goals scored from free kicks for FC Barcelona. I want to mention 2 important goals that he scored from free kicks earlier this year:

1-On 6 January, Messi scored his first goal of year 2017 from a free kick in 2-1 loss against Athletic Bilbao in first leg of Copa del Rey round of 16 fixture. 2-On 9 January, Messi scored his second goal ,again from a free kick, against Villarreal securing a last-gasp draw (1-1 ) for Barcelona.

I will add the reference links for the same.

If anyone with knowledge about this subject has any problem with this, he/she is invited to discuss it with me on this talk page or my talk page, whichever you prefer. I will wait for 7 days and if there is no objection from genuine editors with knowledge on this subject then I will add these facts to the article.

P.S. Kindly don't add these facts yourself before 7 days. I have waited for long time to add these facts there and I don't want to miss this opportunity — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahul Dhanwani (talk • contribs) 15:19, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The freekick record has already been sufficiently covered. If anything this article needs less detail, not more. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I understand that. But the thing is that these 2 goals are a part of another record which has not been covered and therefore need to be mentioned as per my opinion.
Which record is that? Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Messi is first player since Luis Enrique to score for FC Barcelona in first 3 consecutive matches of calendar year and first player to do so from free-kicks.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
The article would triple in size if we included such trivia. For a player like Messi, the bar of inclusion has to be set high. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 13:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
The bar of inclusion is already high. Here I'm talking about an achievement which only an immensely talented player like Messi is able to achieve. This was not a mere co-incidence. It was a result of skill not luck. As for your concerns about length of article, the more Messi plays, more he would achieve and, as volunteer editors, it is our duty to update this article regularly and as a result the length of article is bound to increase. Readers prefer Wikipedia for gaining information about a subject and we know that Messi has a large fan-base around the globe, so if anyone wants to get some particular information about him, he/she would search Wikipedia for it, and we should not deprive him/her of useful information in order to save some space. I hope that you understand what I want to say. If you have any other concerns then let me know.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 15:45, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Note to Rahul Dhanwani, you do not get to personally set a 2-day limit for the discussion, and you do not get to set requirements for "genuine editors with knowledge on this subject". I suggest you wait at least 7 days, and you then leave the judging of the consensus to someone else - and do not implement your proposed addition unless that person judges the consensus to be in your favour. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I will wait for 7 days. And yes I suggest that only people with sufficient knowledge share their opinion. This is in the best interest for the article.
"And yes I suggest that only people with sufficient knowledge share their opinion. This is in the best interest for the article". You may, of course, suggest that, but you cannot impose it. Every editor is equal here and anyone who chooses to can take part in the discussion, and the consensus will be judged based on policy-compliant arguments regardless of who makes them. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm suggesting it because I feel that the discussion should progress and reach a conclusion as early as possible, because in the mean-time the player will play more matches and possibly there will be more information to add. So I suggest that this discussion should be handled by experts in football. If any other (non-expert) editor makes an argument after 7 days period, I will address it but right now let experts handle the issue.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 19:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
No, you do not get to dictate the rules yourself in contradiction of established Wikipedia policy - you seriously need to start listening here! Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I think that you don't understand the meaning of my statement. I'm 'suggesting' it not dictating a rule. Don't convey it in wrong sense. I said that I will address everyone so pay attention to details first before using wrong term..Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 20:48, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I know you keep using the word "suggesting", and I'm just telling you that it is not going to happen - Wikipedia consensus policy is not going to change just because you "suggest" it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm not forcing anyone. I will reply to any concern of any editor regarding my proposal. As I said before, it is just a suggestion. I'm discussing my proposal here, not trying to change a Wikipedia policy. Pay attention and understand to what I say. I want to improve an article and nothing else.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Considering the above discussion, coupled with the multiple reverts in the article itself, there is clearly no consensus for the addition of these individual goal details. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:43, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

If any editor has any other issue with my proposal to add these facts then kindly discuss it here before reverting my edit.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 14:04, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Nobody has to seek your permission for reverting your addition, as there is a clear consensus for not adding it. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
You have done a good thing.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 21:19, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
I think there should be less detail on the free kick record than there is, regardless of this edit. I see no point in the input regarding equalling the record since he surpassed it within a few days. It could easily just say 'on 4 Feb 17 against athletic, Messi scored with a free kick which was his 27th in all competitions for Barcelona, beating the previous record set by Koeman(ref).' Nothing else needed. As for the most goals at the start of a calendar year 'record', is this even held anywhere where it can be cited as a reliable source? If not, is it even considered a noteworthy event by anyone in a position to document it publicly? Most consecutive games scored in at any point, yes OK that would be a good stat to mention, but since the start of a calendar year? So what? Particularly if the mark to beat was only 3 games and the player involved has so many more genuinely impressive records on his list of achievements? Struggling to find a reason for your passionate need to add this piece of insignificant information? Crowsus (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
If you want to reduce length of edit, I will mention it in one statement. In fact, I will remove the 'equalling the record' statement. I read this achievement in a newspaper and to verify the fact, I read goal lists of all the players who played for FC Barcelona since Luis Enrique and I found that this information is correct. It is a result of my original research. If you want, I can provide you a link to reliable source where you can verify this. Consecutive goals, Yes, My passionate need to add this information is because it is first time that someone has scored from 3 free kicks in 3 consecutive games for FC Barcelona. This goal-scoring streak took place in first matches of calendar year and this thing makes it more noteworthy. but since the start of a calendar year? So what? remember that there is record for most goals in a season as well as most goals in calendar year. People are ignorant about these things and this is the reason for my 'passionate need' to add this piece of 'significant' information. Reply if you have more concerns.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 16:56, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

A few comments from me after I reverted this addition and then got information at my talkpage to not remove it and discuss here. First of all, multiple editors has removed it and not a single editor except Rahul Dhanwani has shown interest in keeping this content. For that reason I was totally allowed to remove it. There is no consensus to add it and if I read this thread I am more inclined to say it is consensus for exclusion. Regarding the content, it is simple not notable to mention details of the goals. The article should be about important facts and not about the individual goals. If there is source about the record, and not original research as it looks like, then a sentence about the record could be written, but we dont need more. If the record has recieved significant coverage outside wikipedia and is well sourced, we can add the record and not the goals. Qed237 (talk) 19:04, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a media site where only information having significant coverage can be found. It is place for gaining information, in fact this place is source of information about the subject so information should be provided (details can be reduced, I agree on that). My information is well-sourced, I can provide you link to data to verify it if you have any doubt regarding it. You said that article should be about important facts and not about the individual goals, and in this case the goals make important fact hence I proposed to mention the goals. I will mention the record and 3 teams in one statement and that's it, I get my record and you get small edit.
I would like to add that, every new idea is opposed at first because it is not common in beginning. Same way right now people oppose this because it is not common. I agree that this type of record is rare but when a great player achieves such thing, it should be mentioned in his article because it highlights his skill and ability to perform. If any other player surpasses this record, then I assure you that I will remove this record from this page and add it to that player's page.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a regular media site that has to report everything, it is an encyclopedia. WP:GNG (note it is for article creation and not for things like this) clearly states "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list", and it gets the main concept of an encyclopedia like wikipedia. It is a place for the most important things for a subject/article and not everything. One might say "quality is better than quantity". It is not about being common or not, it is about wikipedia being an encyclopedia containing the most important content in each article and it should be well sourced by reliable sources. Qed237 (talk) 13:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia itself is not a good source, and we should not use it to source things in other articles. All content should be well sourced by reliable sources and not WP:OR. Being in the school system myself, I would say using wikipedia directly as a source is a big no. Qed237 (talk) 13:34, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, Wikipedia is not a site where you should be gaining any new information about a subject. If this information has not been reported anywhere else before, it certainly shouldn't be on Wikipedia. – PeeJay 15:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I suppose that you fail to understand that this information exists on reliable source and I have already told you that I can provide you the source and you may verify the information. Yes, Wikipedia is a source for information because it is an encyclopedia and if you already don't know, encyclopedia is meant for gaining information. Any information can become important only when people know about it. You should not deprive anyone who deserves to know these facts.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 08:55, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
See, you keep saying the information can be found from a reliable source, but you still haven't provided one. And yes, Wikipedia is a place to find information, but it is not an indiscriminate collection of shit, which this certainly would be. This is not encyclopaedic info and should not be included here. – PeeJay 10:25, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Mind your language. This is encyclopedic info. I will provide you reference link if you are willing to be honest in judgement.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 07:12, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Mind my language? Don't give me that bullshit. Also, even if you can provide a reference, that does not mean this info is encyclopaedic. – PeeJay 17:40, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Again, mind your language and learn to behave properly. This is encyclopedic information.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 19:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Don't talk shit. You can't just say "this is encyclopaedic" and expect people to agree. Messi's free kick record is an obscure bit of trivia and has no place in this article. – PeeJay 20:26, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
Mind your language. He is only player in 21st century to achieve this feat for FC Barcelona. Again, 'This is encyclopedic'.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
So far not a single editor has agreed that this should be included and not a single reliable source has been provided. It is time to WP:DROPTHESTICK. Qed237 (talk) 21:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
No. The discussion is not over. I'm ready to provide source but look at the language used by PeeJay. I will provide link as soon as people are ready to discuss with open mind and behave properly. You all need to understand that right now people are not aware of this fact that I want to enter and that is the reason I want to add it to this page. Let people know what they should know. Messi has millions of fans and I'm doing this for them because they should know what he has achieved.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I think that this is just trivia and should not be included. I agree that you should WP:DROPTHESTICK. --Jaellee (talk) 19:42, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) You keep saying you're ready to provide a source, so why don't you hurry up and bloody do it? Stop making excuses about my language and produce the info. As things stand, you're just obfuscating the whole issue and I'm personally finding it very frustrating. Furthermore, you continue to fail to provide any reason why this information belongs in an encyclopaedia. Scoring from a free kick, even three consecutive free kicks, is fairly spectacular, sure, but why does it belong on this page? You need a better reason than simply "people will want to hear this". If you want to tell people so badly, write a goddamn blog! – PeeJay 20:03, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Go for it [1]. It is database for all goals of all players. Analyse each player who played for FC Barcelona in last 20 years and compare the goal scoring streaks in first matches of calendar year. I have already analysed the data. It is important to mention this fact here on this page because it highlights Messi's improved skills and his accuracy and ability to repeat the success in scoring goal from direct free kick. If there were more players in FC Barcelona who could score from direct free kicks, then I would not have insisted on this fact but right now Messi is the only one to do so and this should be on Messi's article page. I don't say people will want to hear this I insist people should know thisRahul Dhanwani (talk) 15:22, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
So, transfermarkt is the source? The one that is not reliable and should not be used here. I agree that this info is trivia and not needed. Drop the Stick and move on. Kante4 (talk) 17:37, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
First of all it has been decided at reliable sources noticeboards that Transfermarkt is not a reliable source. Secondly, you can not link to a website and tell people to look it up themselves, that is not how sourcing works. Qed237 (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
First of all, I told you that it is database which provides goals of all players. The main point is that no player since Luis Enrique could do the feat which Messi did. Now if you want to verify it then you need to go through performances of all players who have played for FC Barcelona since Luis Enrique and compare accordingly as I did. If you want other source I recommend [2], it provides same data and you may verify it. My facts are correct and need to be in the article for the reasons already explained. This feat does not happen daily, it is rare and performed by a great player so let it be in the article.Rahul Dhanwani (talk) 13:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2017

See also:
I think it is better, in my opinion, to include the "Clear" command (with two curly brackets at either side of 'Clear') after the 'Portal' part. This may make reading a bit easier as, at first, I thought the section was empty.
86.169.255.128 (talk) 08:50, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 09:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

2006-2007 La Liga Title :: error

Real Madrid were Champions over Barcelona on head-to-head results in La Liga, NOT based on "goal average" as the locked article asserts. The BBC article cited for this data point also confirms that goals were not the tie-breaker criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:B85A:7950:9520:E4BA:DF8:4177 (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. Silly mistake on my part. Prayer for the wild at heart (talk) 09:38, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

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Criminal conviction

The section about legal issues needs to be updated. Messi and his father just lost their appeal. Messi's prison sentence of 21-months was upheld.

He should therefore be added to the category of Argentine Criminals, found here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Argentine_criminals

News source from Reuters here - https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-soccer-spain-messi-idUKKBN18K1F7 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.20.249.207 (talk) 02:10, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Wife's name

Messi's wife to be correct first name is spelled with only 1 L, Antonela. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marianogattoni (talk • contribs) 23:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

2005 Supercopa

Why isn't the 2005 Supercopa listed among Messi's trophies, when these sites [3](FC Barcelona) and [4](Transfermarkt) both acknowledge him with it? Unless someone can provide facts that he really isn't credited with it, then I think it should be listed. Paulinho28 (talk) 09:28, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Not reliable sources as Barca has interest in adding as much trophies as possible to Messi, and Tranfermarkt has been decided unreliable at noticeboards. And he was not even in the squad for this single match so he should not be awarded this honour anyway. Qed237 (talk) 10:39, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Messi has 30 trophies as of article 437 so add 2005 supercopa de espana win. This article was no Barcelona. Every professional futbol commentator, magazine, newspapers says he has 30 trophies. He was part of Barca since 2004. Follow the professionals no peoples whims.

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2017

Messi has won 4 european golden boots not 3 when being compared to Ronaldo. 2A02:C7D:C83:6C00:5831:D5BF:AB90:8B6E (talk) 03:29, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 03:42, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2017

Please change that Messi has won 29 titles in his career to 30 titles. He won the 2005 Supercopa de España, but it is not listed. This is confirmed on his own page, www.Messi.com and on www.messivsronaldo.net (both reliable sources). Erik0609 (talk) 15:31, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Messi's own website is not a suitable source. He was part of Barcelona's squad in 2005, but he was not involved in the Supercopa that year, hence why that is not listed here. – PeeJay 16:44, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2017

plzz let me edit i will fix spelling mistake 42.201.145.2 (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 08:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

FC Barcelona or Barcelona

Should it say plays for FC Barcelona or Barcelona Kind regards ChocolateRabbit 15:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Please leave FC Barcelona in the introduction. Josepolivares (talk) 20 September 2017 (UTC)
@Struway2: Your thoughts? Kind regards ChocolateRabbit 16:02, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Lionel Messi's assists statistics.

The statistics for MESSI's assists per season and in his career are missing. They used to be listed but I see that they are gone. Why? They come in handy when comparing them to Cristiano's assists total, since MESSI, having played in 156 less official games than Cristiano, has made more assists than the portuguese. Now, though, I can put how many to prove my point in any discussion. Please put them up again, like before.

Thank you.

83.42.71.5 (talk) 11:16, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

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