Talk:Leonardo da Vinci/Archive 8

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Edit request on 24 September 2013

May someone please fix the area where it talks about his helicopter design to say it was called an ornithopter. This is important information that should be included. Here is a reference: http://www.ornithopter.net/history_e.html 01infamous10 (talk) 22:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Could you specify where? Helicopter is mentioned at least 3 times. -- Jodon | Talk 22:59, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

• I question the use of the word helicopter at all in the article about me. While it is flattering, it appears to me to be unjustified and the very mention of it adds undue prominence to my contribution in that field. The word "helicopter" was coined in 1861, 342 years after my death. Initially, the helical screw, adapted from the Archimedian screw, was designed to reduce drag falling from heights, NOT to create lift, thus in much the same way sycamore seeds fall to the ground. As I modified the surface area, in later drawings, the idea was then to create lift by increasing the speed of the rotation using coiled springs. This of course would cause its pilot to spin, rather than remain fixed, a problem I never successfully resolved. Other designs on this appear to be lost. Oh Francesco, your son was even more incorrigible than Salai! The use of the word helicopter refers primarily to the spinning rotary mechanism using blades to create lift, which was not properly applied until the advent of the internal combustion engine. The word could be a portmanteau of "helical ornithopter" which would thus be a misnomer since ornithopters primarily employ flapping mechanisms to achieve lift, rather than rotation. I will invite comment before making any changes to the article myself. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 23:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The ornithopter and the helical screw thing are presumably two different objects, being designed to flap. Leonardo da Vinci, can I suggest that you fix it in whatever way you see fit. I am sure you can reference whatever change you make. Three mentions of "helicopter" is definitely overkill. P.S. I am so glad to know you are still around..... Amandajm (talk) 01:31, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

@ Leonardo da Vinci: We can't just take your word for it, and you really should read our guideline on conflict of interest. Unless you're just pretending and are really this Leonardo instead. Rivertorch (talk) 18:45, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that Leonardo da Vinci has covered himself by "disclosure of interests", see guideline on conflict of interest. As long as Leonardo here can produce some up-to-date reference (and I'm pretty sure he can) then he ought not be blocked from editing this page. Of course, he cannot quote himself on this issue. Do you think they get scientific journals, wherever he is now? (I refuse to go the Elixir of Life direction! He never was a very good chemist.....) Amandajm (talk) 01:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, yes. Best if he got a faculty post somewhere and published in a peer-reviewed journal. In case he's off painting something, here's a source[1] that should suffice for adding the word "ornithopter". I think the third instance of "helicopter" is okay, since it says "resembling", but how about the second instance? (The first is in the lede.) We've got a book source (not well cited) that Google Books doesn't show enough of to be helpful.[2] (It's enough to verify the author uses the word, but the full context is hard to determine.) Rivertorch (talk) 05:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's be daring and forget the flaps and whirls altogether! Amandajm (talk) 07:14, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure . . . the subtleties of aeronautic design are above my pay grade. In any event, the article still doesn't use the word "ornithopter". If you can devise a clever way to insert it, then we can close this request with a pretty green check mark. (I'll give it a try if you don't, but probably not till tomorrow.) Rivertorch (talk) 16:53, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

All done, including a link to ornithopter. I'm glad this was pointed out. Amandajm (talk) 03:22, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. Me too. Thanks to you, to Jodon1971, and to the Old Master himself. Rivertorch (talk) 04:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Me three. Thanks for tackling this, I was going to go down that route anyway. If I might just make another observation, there's still a little imbalance problem - Hang glider is now mentioned twice in this article, but Leonardo is not mentioned at all in the hang glider article; and ornithopter is mentioned once in this article, but Leonardo is mentioned 3 times in the ornithopter article. I think the mention/references in the linked articles are more consistent with reality than the mention of them here, and I've no references or reason to believe Leonardo had any designs of a hang glider, I do however have numerous books myself on his inventions, and ornithopters feature prominently in them. I would suggest removing hang glider altogether.

Oh, and I'm afraid I have to agree with the conflict of interest problem above, sorry Mr. da Vinci. Maybe if he restricted his edits to the talk page instead of the article page that would be acceptable? I wouldn't want to scare the Old Master off. -- Jodon | Talk 21:32, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

There is a picture of the V&A model of his hang glider in the Article about his science and inventions. I don't want to be fussed about it. Why don't you insert a suitable reference to Leonardo in the hang glider page. You could even put the photo if there's room. Amandajm (talk) 13:26, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, that model is a modern adaptation rather than an accurate representation of one of his drawings. The building of models is all part of a popularisation of his ideas. Where is the drawing used as a blueprint for that model? If it was taken from the other drawing on that page, it is not a "hang glider", but is designed to "flap" its wings, in the manner of a bat, therefore it is yet again another ornithopter (which uses "beating" of wings as Leonardo put it), of which Leonardo made hundreds of drawings, and he made none of rigid fixed-wing mechanisms, bar possibly one, which I mention below, or perhaps you can point me to some sources? He may eventually have realised that man has not enough muscle power to either create thrust or maintain lift by beating wings, and may indeed have intended to go along the route of a hang glider, but from what he left us in notebooks there is no evidence to support that he "conceptualised a hang glider" as mentioned in this article. There is one drawing here of what is interpreted as a "glider", but it looks more like a kite, and there's only an ambiguous indication it was ever designed to carry the full weight of a man, unlike in Leonardo's hundreds of other drawings of ornithopters, which clearly show men operating the machines. The hang glider article should remain as is, but undue weight exists here now. -- Jodon | Talk 15:26, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Jodon, you may well be right about the misinterpretation of a drawing in the model of the object. Can you check this out, and fix it in whatever way you deem necessary? It would be good to get it right. I am not sufficiently familiar with the individual drawings of the flying machines.

One of the problems with Leonardo's "inventions" is that he often didn't bother to draw the obvious. Basic things like gears, levers etc are often omitted. When people (frequently technical students) try to recreate them, they run into problems. Amandajm (talk) 03:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean "fix it"? If you mean reconcile that model with a drawing that supports its design, then I'm pretty sure no such drawing exists. My initial searches on the internet have come up with nothing, and none of the books I have on his notebooks or inventions show such a drawing. Unless someone makes it appear magically out of thin air, you have to assume such a drawing does not exist, and therefore the model's construction is misrepresented. In the meantime, even if it is "fixed" eventually, can we P-P-PPLEEEAASE remove any hang glider mention in this article until then? Did I say please? -- Jodon | Talk 19:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Jodon | Talk, you are a signed-in editor! What I mean is, fix anything you like! If you want to remove "hang-glider", then do so, citing "Talk-page" in your edit summary. If you can't find a pic that totally reconciles that non-flapping thingy in the V@A, then write a caption indicating that it's "loosely based on his concepts" or something like that. Those pictures can't be presented as accurate representations of Leonardo's designs.

Just go from the talk page to the major page. Flap! Bang! Wham! If somebody doesn't like it, then they'll whine, but it's not as if you haven't looked into the subject and discussed it! Amandajm (talk) 03:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Amandajm. This a highly sensitive article, as you know, being probably its most prolific editor. I didn't want to make any edits myself without gaining consensus first, just in case somebody did "whine" about it. I hate getting involved in edit wars, especially when I know I'm right about something and other editors wrongfully assume bad faith on my part. Its already happened on this article before when I tried to remove a dubiously sourced claim, but other editors ignored my legitimate request and kept reverting my edits. But yes, it has been sufficiently discussed here so I will make the changes. Crash! Bang! Wallop! -- Jodon | Talk 06:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Aircraft

Note the use of the word "conceptualised". There is no statement that he "invented" aircraft. It is without doubt that he conceptualised them. Please just leave it at that. Amandajm (talk) 03:33, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Amandajm. We can leave it at "Flying machines" which is probably better, and no link is also good. If you're trying to engage the average reader, then using the word "aircraft" will conjure up for people (correctly) the modern and most widespread aircraft i.e. turbine, propeller or jet propulsion using fixed-wing designs, not to mention hot air balloons and microlites, none of which was even "conceived" of or "conceptualised" during Leonardo's lifetime. And lastly, ornithopters may not be considered true aircraft in the sense that they don't actually work (how many ornithopters do you see flying around airports?)!!!! -- Jodon | Talk 09:38, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Glad you are happy!

I have just been taking a look at the viewer counts for this article: Generally around 15000 per day during school terms (Northern hemisphere), 9000 per day in the holidays. A high use day is 22,000-24,000 with the odd peak at 48,000, presumably after some significant programme had been shown on TV.

What I cannot account for is the extraordinary event of 30 September 2008 (usual use of 16,000 once school returned). On that day the article was viewed by an unprecedented 285,617 people. What happened that day?

Did they show the Da Vinci Code on TV for the first time?

Amandajm (talk) 10:16, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Ha ha ha! Probably! Actually I think people mistook him for Leonardo DiCaprio, on that day it was announced that he and Kate Winslet (from Titanic) would be reunited together in another film! What a cultured world we are! Ha ha! By the way how do you check those viewer stats?-- Jodon | Talk 10:53, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Leonardo da Vinci gets more hits than Leonardo DiCaprio, more than Harry Potter and just slightly fewer than Justin Beiber. Amandajm (talk) 00:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Well that would explain it. And you were asking about a particular date. Before researching hits, people have expectations, right? So they type in "Leonardo" in Google on that day expecting to get search results about their favourite actor, and accidently click on a man whose greatness far exceeds that actor, who also happens to be higher up in Google search results, but someone whom they are not interested in, but they don't realise this until afterwards So they leave the Wikipedia page, disgruntled, and type in the full spelling in Google then. If you have a better explanation, lets hear it. But yes it is disturbing to think more people want to learn about Justin BeeBop more than they do Leonardo da Vinci. -- Jodon | Talk 13:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Holy Mother of the Divine. Here I am discussing Justin BlubBlub under a section about using "aircraft" in a Leonardo article! Could that BE more off topic?!? -- Jodon | Talk 18:37, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Just where are the remains of Leonardo actually interred?

It seems funny that anyone has to ask such a question concerning such a famous person! But the real facts seem to be that "NO ONE" knows for sure! Please see; http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2010/01/31/italians_seek_access_and_clues_in_da_vinci_remains/

In reality, it seems that a lot of the famous people of the past seem to have the same problem!!!

Regards, 96.19.147.40 (talk) 02:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC) Ronald L. Hughes

It has been interesting to watch the mythologisation of the Chapelle Hubert claim over the last forty years. When I first visited Amboise in 1969 under the guidance of a local historian, the claim was only a possible attribution, specifically that on removing the panel over the chapel door depicting a hunt, a skeleton was found behind it, which was considered as possibly being that of Leonardo, as it was neither buried in holy ground (interdicted to a homosexual) nor yet in unhallowed ground! A similar practice was used in the burial of St Mark in Alexandria. Since then, the French authorities have gradually allowed the vague hypothesis to be changed into a definitive statement that he was buried in the Chapel, although there still seems to be no evidence either way, understandably given he had no descendants whose DNA could be tested. I therefore think the outright statement included in the meme needs serious qualification unless authoritative evidence can be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.121.173.156 (talk) 18:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Leonardo had made his Confession and received Communion before he died, which would indicate that he was in a state of Grace, regardless of the accusation that had been made in his youth. It is my theory that he did this for similar reasons to the man in Boccacio's story, simply to avoid embarrassing his host. But the fact that he is known to have done this means that there is no reason why he would not have been buried in hallowed ground. Amandajm (talk) 00:27, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Re wax model of horse

Because this is the broad article it doesn't deal with every work that Leonardo is known to have created, and it leaves out all the recent attributions, of which there are a great many, some of which are simply nonsense. If we included the horse, on Pedretti's opinion alone, then there are half a dozen more works that Pedretti has at one time or another been quoted as saying were by Leonardo. Leonardo is the the name that jumps to mind, whenever a work of that period is discovered (unless it is a marble sculpture, and then it is attributed to Michelangelo, regardless of how ghastly and incompetent it might be.) The article also does not attempt to deal in any detail with speculation as to Leonardo's religious beliefs, sexual orientation, nationality of his mother or all those other things that are dealt with elsewhere. Amandajm (talk) 01:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Not Gattemelata but Gattamelata

Could you please change "Donatello's Gattemelata" into "Donatello's Gattamelata"? Vincenzo Cena, Rome 87.241.12.21 (talk) 14:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Done. Mindmatrix 16:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Vegeterian myth

De vinci is not a vegeterian http://arthistory.about.com/od/leonardo/a/Was-Leonardo-A-Vegetarian.htm --Dorpwnz (talk) 22:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Armed Fighting Vehicle

@ Amandajm

I'm quite happy to see it go rather than remain and be described as "a tank", which it wasn't. That's laziness/wishful thinking. But I should prefer that it go for the right reasons.

The fact that the projected vehicle was almost entirely impractical is irrelevant to this discussion. Strictly speaking, it is a mobile, protected, wheeled gun platform, but we obviously don't want that. It would have been "enclosed", but in what? AFAIK that is not specified. Wikipedia describes armour as anything from leather to tungsten carbide to Kevlar, but most dictionaries define it, and most people understand it in this context, as meaning some type of metal. If we describe something as an armoured vehicle there is the assumption that it was armoured with metal, and the next thing you know, it'll be a tank again. Da Vinci probably imagined it to be made of wood, since it would have withstood most of the weaponry of the time, but there is no evidence of what he had in mind, which is what we must consider.

If we leave out the reference altogether, it will only be a matter of time before someone gripes "but Leonardo da Vinci invented the tank", and off we go again. The vehicle was to be armed, but not armoured in the sense that a 21st century reader understands. I would favour reflecting that. If you have a preferred choice of words, that would be fine. Amicalement, Hengistmate (talk) 06:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

It's always referred to as a 'tank'. --PL (talk) 07:50, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, no, it isn't. But it often is, by people who don't know any better, and it ought not to be, because a tank is: a heavy armoured fighting vehicle carrying guns and moving on a continuous articulated metal track. (Wikipedia, which, on this occasion, is correct.) Hengistmate (talk) 08:58, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I prefer to refer to it as an "armoured vehicle" regardless of whether it was intended to be enclosed with wood or metal. It was obviously intended to withstand attack and to protect the person inside.

referring to it as an "armed vehicle" tells us nothing. The most significant thing about it is not that it is "armed" but that it is almost fully enclosed with surfaces that are designed to deflect missiles and withstand impact. The sentence does not imply that Leonardo "invented" a tank, but it is certainly clear that he "conceptualised" an armoured vehicle, regardless of what the "armour" might be.

Now, as you are aware, the word "armour" can refer to a number of different things. So at the risk that someone might think correctly or incorrectly, that the design essentially had metal plating, I think we can safely return "armoured vehicle" to the introduction. I don't think that your objections stand up.

Please don't use a capital "D" for "Da Vinci" even though it is used that way in the title of Dan Brown's book. He is known as "Leonardo" for short, because although he was called "Leonardo from Vinci" when he was in Florence, when he was Milan, they seem to have called him "Leonardo from Florence". Amandajm (talk) 11:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Mona Lisa's background landscape mystery

I found something very strange about the background landscape of Mona Lisa!!! If you simply duplicate the painting and place it one after the other, you can see that the landscape at the background merges perfectly!!!!! So I feel that there is a big mystery behind it. And I have made a video of the same a couple of years back. This is the video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN68c8oxmCA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sajijohnnykundukulam (talk • contribs) 07:47, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed the same thing! It is very curious! Amandajm (talk) 03:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you! Someone finally noticed! Now I can rest happily in my grave (wherever it is they actually put me, I can't seem to find myself at the moment). The forward slanting landscape causes the viewer to return to the left hand side and move to the right to the central subject repeatedly and unconsciously. A variation of this visual principle was also used, albeit a bit more obviously, in the Last Supper to cause anyone looking at the apostles to always return their gaze to Christ (through their gestures in this case rather than landscape, and through their height relative to the center - the eye will of necessity drop down to a lower level from a height, as though submitting to an unconscious desire to conform with the law of gravity). In essence this is a way of applying the mathematical principle of infinite regression to visual language. Like in wonderful Nature, nothing in my paintings is accidental or superfluous. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 00:08, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The Last Supper: "Peacock terms"

User:DaL33T, I am explaining here the use of the term "most famous".

"Peacock term" is used on Wikipedia when the word "famous" or some other similar expression is used unnecessarily. If I write "Domenico Ghirlandaio was a famous painter of the 15th century", then "famous" is unnecessary. If I write "As Domenico Ghirlandaio was one of the most famous painters of Florence in the 1470s, he was invited, with Botticelli and Cosimo Roselli, to decorate the Sistine Chapel." In this case, Ghirlandaio's fame within his own lifetime was the reason for this commission.

To say that something is "the most famous" might be considered a peacock term, unless the statement is absolutely true. e.g. "The Eiffel Tower is the most famous structure in Paris", "William Shakespeare is Britain's most famous playwright", "The sinking of RMS Titanic was the most famous naval disaster of the 20th century". Each one of these statements is true beyond any argument. If these statements are not made, with relation to the subject, then, not to do so would be an omission of an important fact about the subject. i.e. It isn't enough to say that the Eiffel Tower was built by a particular person at a particular date and was for a time the world's tallest structure. It also needs to be said that it is Paris's most famous structure, and the one that symbolises that city to the whole world.

The other way of using the term "most famous" is within qualifications. In the present case, the Last Supper is stated to be Leonardo's most famous painting of the 1490s (i.e. the most famous of those works that he painted between 1490 and 1499). Let me qualify this further. There are only about 15 paintings that can with reasonable surety be ascribed to Leonardo da Vinci. Which ones did he paint in the 1490s? He painted the Last Supper in its entirety and perhaps he began the second version of the Virgin of the Rocks. He may have completed The Musician at this time, or painted some part of Madonna with the Yarn Winder. No-one can be sure about these two.

That leaves us with one painting that is so famous that its is reproduced in thousands of versions: paintings, prints, wall hangings, carpets, wood carvings, salt carvings, ice carvings, glow-in-the-dark moulded plastic, postage stamps, cameos, stained glass windows, porcelain, tee-shirts, Simpsons episodes, feminist artworks, umbrellas, paper wrappers, etc etc etc. There is only one other religious painting that is nearly as famous, and that is Michelangelo's Creation of Adam. The difference is that while the Creation of Adam is regarded as a great work of art, it is not venerated as a Holy Icon. Leonardo's Last Supper is venerated, and for that reason, it is more reproduced that any other work of art, including Mona Lisa.

So the question of it being "Leonardo da Vinci's most famous painting of the 1490s" really cannot be challenged. It is not just Leonardo's most famous painting of the 1490s, it is beyond any doubt, the World's most famous painting of the 1490s.

I hope that this makes the correct use of terms such as "famous" clearer.

Amandajm (talk) 12:50, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Who the Mona Lisa Is (very clear)

"Leonardo da Vinci was a great scientist as well a great artist. He possessed excellent memory and very lively imagination. His work shows integrity and belief in his self expressions.

As seen in his paintings, the subject of motherhood interested Leonardo. Thus, it can be assumed that he painted his mother. The Mona Lisa seems to be the only woman in his paintings, except the Virgin Mary, that has a motherly expression in her face.

I am quite sure that the painting's subject is Leonardo's mother Caterina in a distant memory. She died in 1495. Lisa del Giocondo's job was to be the model only.

At the time that Leonardo painted the portrait of his mother, whom he adored, she was not among the living. This is the reason why Leonardo chose the setting of the Holy Land, as he imagined it, as the background to the portrait. (The Jordan River is painted to her right and the Sea of Galilee to her left). (See: Cross and Yarn-Winder).

The idea is that she was alive in Leonardo's imagination.

This is similar to the background of Leonardo's paintings of the Virgin Mary, which also depict the same landscape of the Holy Land.

Thus, Leonardo glorifies the Mona Lisa as the Virgin Mary. (See: Leonardo glorifies Salai as Saint John the Baptist).

Leonardo kept the portrait with him wherever he traveled, until his death. Hence, the Mona Lisa was a significant woman in Leonardo's life.

Leonardo pictured his mother, who raised him until age five, in painting the Virgin Mary. He made an associative connection between these two women in his art.

So, Leonardo's mother was the only significant woman in Leonardo's life, hence deserved to be glorified as the Virgin Mary.

In all of his paintings (except Annunciation), the Virgin Mary looks at her son. In this painting she looks at the painter.

The conclusion is that the painter is her son.

Therefore, it is possible that Leonardo encoded the letters C and L (Caterina and Leonardo), in his special reverse style, in Mona Lisa's embroidery on her dress.

During Italian Renaissance Leonardo's time, it was not acceptable to paint ordinary people, only important people or saints. The woman appearing in the portrait known as Isabella d'Este (1499 - 1500) is actually Leonardo's mother Caterina in distant memory. The woman appearing in the portrait looks like the Mona Lisa and not like Isabella d'Este. (See: Titian, Isabella d'Este, 1534 – 1536; They do not have the same forehead and lips). This cartoon which has survived must have been drawn for an important work. (See the cartoon in London, National Gallery). The only possible important work we are aware of is the Mona Lisa. (See also the veil and the upper dress cut, rounded and not in straight lines). Thus, Leonardo glorifies his mother as a respectable woman.

I reached most of these conclusions during my research about Leonardo's art in 1976.

Roni Kempler, an art lover"

Those highly knowledgeable in the arts understand that this theory is indeed the truth. VeryClear (talk) 12:19, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't seem "very clear" whether you are simply propounding Kempler's theory (or opinion, as there is no published scholarly work from such a person) here for its own sake (or for your own sake to provoke further discussion), or whether you are suggesting this article should actually be re-written to reflect this theory, thereby rejecting most of the published scholarly sources already establishing the sitter's identity. Either way, a lengthy discussion already appears to have taken place about a year ago, on this very subject, HERE. I need not elaborate further as I believe that discussion speaks for itself. If you read it you may understand more, or even "very clearly" the difficulty surrounding an inclusion of Kempler's theory in this particular article. It may perhaps be more appropriately discussed in the article Speculations about Mona Lisa. Thank you for your interest. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 19:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I do not agree with you. This theory is very clear and understandable to those familiar with Leonardo's life and his art. VeryClear (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You are welcome. As long as you acknowledge that it is merely a theory and that Wikipedia has a procedure for dealing with theories (called "no original research") then I do not disagree with your disagreement. Personally I welcome challenging assertions to authority or conventional thinking, as it tests the strength or lack thereof of the established beliefs, but it must be understood that opinions of Wikipedia editors are irrelevant here on Wikipedia, only reliable sources are what matters. The discussion I referred to above did not show conclusively that the source (Kempler) is a valid one. If you can provide a link to a book or paper by Kempler that would then supersede any Wikipedia editor's opinion. For example this source is a Leonardo biography by an established art historian Robert Payne. The source claims that the Mona Lisa is a portrait of Isabella of Aragon, and devotes an entire chapter to it. The fulcrum of his theory, on page 146, is as follows (I've added appropriate links to show what paintings the author is referring to, as discussed in chapter 11):

"The claim that Isabella is the Mona Lisa depends upon the curious fact that Leonardo depicted her three times in the same attitude over a period of about ten years, first as a young virgin, then a woman of the world, and then in the Louvre painting as a widow, for that veil can only mean that she has been widowed."

Regardless of whether you or I disagree with that source, it can be considered verifiable because it is a published work by a known and established art historian, therefore as a source it is usable on Wikipedia. In light of that example, there is no information about an art historian called Roni Kempler (whom you quote extensively above, curiously not unlike the other poster in the aforementioned discussion), or what, if any, research material he/she has published. I hope that helps to clarify the situation and the difficulty faced with using your "source" on Wikipedia. Wikipedia does not pretend to have achieved perfection, but it does have a system, and it works. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 19:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong. There has been much speculation and debate regarding the identity of the portrait’s sitter. All of them are theories (interpretations), including that she is Lisa del Giocondo. Kempler's theory is well known. See also his contribution [3] in Mona Lisa. The consistency of a theory is not measured by the person standing behind it but by the ability of that theory to stand on its own merit and provide a plausible explanation and answers. The name of the person proposing the theory should be mentioned to provide an address for future questions or debate. VeryClear (talk) 12:59, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

If you read what I said "very clearly" you would no doubt see that I was NOT disagreeing with you or Kempler, but simply saying that your opinion (or mine) on the Mona Lisa's true identity is irrelevant to Wikipedia. The only thing that matters are RELIABLE SOURCES. I've already linked to guidelines regarding the use of reliable sources, and I did you the courtesy of explaining the difference with an example. Of course, its your choice if you wish to ignore this distinction. At the risk of repeating myself, the name Roni Kempler only shows up in several blogs/websites with the exact same content posted on each of them, with no research material or sources provided by him/her, just an opinion or theory (which anyone can make). If you checked the archived discussion I referred to before, one editor points to a number of these "copy/pastes". I've checked Amazon and there's no books about the Mona Lisa, or any other book for that matter, by Roni Kempler. It does however seem like you are using Wikipedia as a soapbox to promote Roni Kempler, and Wikipedia has its rules on that also - see Wikipedia is not a soapbox. This, plus saying to me You are wrong in big bold letters (rather childishly), leads me to believe that you are acting rather like a Troll, and are probably a sockpuppet of User:Zaqxswer based on the fact that user also pushed Kempler's theory and told another editor in big bold letters that she was completely wrong. See archived discussion. My suggestion is to back away from this, as you are flogging a dead horse, at least on this page, but feel free to discuss it on the page about Speculations about Mona Lisa. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 18:32, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't agree with you. See. AIso, not all people want the secret to be revealed. Let's leave it right there...... VeryClear (talk) 21:09, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome, just as long as you know it's irrelevant to Wikipedia whether you agree with me or not. And unless you follow my suggestion then your contribution to WP will also be irrelevant. And if you want to leave it there that's fine also. Good luck. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 21:56, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Re: Old Age, 1513-1519

The use of secondary and outdated sources leads to the perpetuation of unfounded legends, such as the presence of Leonardo at Bologna in December 1515. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should not be citing another encyclopedia as its source (in this case the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1909). Another citation for this claim is The Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, s.v. Antoine du Prat, which does not even mention Leonardo.

Please replace "In 1516, he entered François' service, being given the use of the manor house Clos Lucé[nb 15] near the king's residence at the royal Château d'Amboise." with:

"In 1516 the François invited Leonardo to come to France, as documented by a letter dated 14 March 1516, sent by Guillaume Gouffier, seigneur de Bonnivet, Admiral of France (c.1488-1525) from Lyon, where the French royal court had been staying since 28 February, and addressed to the French ambassador in Rome, Antonio Maria Pallavicini. The relevant passage reads in translation: “And also I beg you to urge Messer Leonardo that he should come to the King’s presence, as this Lord awaits him with great devotion and wholeheartedly assures him that he will be most welcome both by the King and by Madame his mother.” The fact that Louise of Savoy, François’ mother, joined her son in urging Leonardo to enter the king’s service, may be related to the fact that two years previously Louise’s sister Philiberte had married Giuliano de' Medici, Duke of Nemours, Leonardo’s employer since 1513, and that the couple set up residence at the Vatican palace, where Leonardo was working under Giuliano’s patronage. Giuliano’s rapidly declining health in the early months of 1516 and his death at Fiesole near Florence on 17 March of that year, only three days after the date of Bonnivet’s letter to Pallavicini, was surely related to the timing of the invitation and its acceptance by Leonardo. The date of Leonardo’s move to France is unknown, but is usually dated to the autumn of 1516, before the onset of winter. The last trace of his presence in Rome was in August 1516. Leonardo was given the use of the manor house Clos Lucé[nb 15] near the king's residence at the royal Château d'Amboise."2A02:1811:3000:5900:C479:27F5:3CBF:C35 (talk) 10:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)Pictorex

Portrait of a man in red chalk (Leonardo)

The subject of this drawing was identified as Leonardo, in the 19th century. However it remains unknown whether it really is Leonardo or not, and the identification of the drawing as a self-portrait has come under criticism, consistently. It is frequently suggested that the person is too old, and that it might represent either his father or his uncle.

The drawing that is presumed to be by Leonardo's pupil Melzi has not come under the same criticism. It is universally accepted as being a portrait of Leonardo.

The change was made because I frequently have to fend off critics of the "Portrait of a man in red chalk". Look at the article and talk page. Amandajm (talk) 11:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is a lengthy discussion on the subject. Talk:Leonardo da Vinci/Archive 4#Image of Leonardo, the alleged "self-portrait". Amandajm (talk) 12:00, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

• No, its not a self-portrait, its my uncle Francesco. Anyone who is familiar with the dating of my drawing technique and choice of materials knows that I used very little diagonal cross-hatching in my drawings after 1500, and very little red chalk after the fiasco that was the Battle of Anghiari. O ignorant mortals, open your eyes! Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 00:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Childhood, 1452–1466

The evidence relating to Leonardo’s fingerprint should not be cited from a newspaper article, but from the original publication, i.e., D'ANASTASIO R, VEZZOSI A, GALLENGA PE, PIERFELICE L, SABATO A, CAPASSO L, 2005: Anthropological analysis of Leonardo da Vinci's fingerprints. Anthropologie (Brno) 43, 1: 57-61. Astract: "Leonardo's writings, drawings and paintings contain many fingerprints representing the only biological traces of the genius, and of the world surrounding him. These fingerprints were produced by ink, by biological fluids (saliva, blood), and possibly food (oil, fats?). The topographic distributions or the completeness of the prints show the manual ability of the genius, and the presence of some sort of disturbance (joint or neuro-muscular disease) having occurred during the last part of his life. The authors reconstruct the left thumb print released on manuscripts and its perfect correspondence to the print on the examined canvases." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pictorex (talk • contribs) 11:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2014

Groman01 (talk) 17:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC) plese

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 19:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

did you know that I, Leonardo Da Vinci made a second Mona Lisa???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.193.70.3 (talk) 16:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you. The Corriere della Sera, the most prestigious Italian newspaper reports the news: http://www.corriere.it/cultura/09_novembre_16/leonardo-due-gioconde_1b568056-d296-11de-a0b4-00144f02aabc.shtml --2.33.180.41 (talk) 11:57, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

pronunciation

It's [leoˈnardo da ˈvintʃi] and not [leoˈnardo da vˈvintʃi], no syntactic gemination in this case. Please correct. I can't since the page is locked. --79.3.10.27 (talk) 12:30, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done Actually and usually it is [da ˈvintʃi], as easly verifiable by listening to any documentary on Leonardo in italian language. --84101e40247 (talk) 13:05, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2015

Jack123456789101112131415 (talk) 12:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 15:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Portrait of a young Leonardo da Vinci

He was a model for Francesco Botticini's 'Tobias and the Three Archangels' painting. There are no portraits of a young Leonardo DaVinci in this article so this image can be useful.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Leonardo_Davinci_from_Francesco_Botticini%27s_Tobias_and_the_Three_Archangels.jpg#.7B.7Bint:filedesc.7D.7D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Botticini#/media/File:Tobias_and_the_Three_Archangels.jpg

Source: http://arthistory.about.com/library/weekly/blMaikeVL_newleo.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ljpoj (talk • contribs) 20:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Salaì

Should all instances of "Salai" not be changed to "Salaì", since that's his name, as well as the name of the man's article? HowlingSnail (talk) 20:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I, for one, agree. The Pokémon Fan (talk) 22:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Forgotten description

I forgot to describe my edit to the page. It goes as follows: This edit is simply to add more links to other pages. Thank you. The Pokémon Fan (talk) 22:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2015

Please add the following in the infobox | occupation = polymath, painter, sculptor, architect, musician, mathematician, engineer, inventor, anatomist, artist, geologist, cartographer, botanist, and writer Drop from an olive tree (talk) 19:49, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Not done:. Per MOS:INFOBOX, the purpose of an infobox is to summarize information, not repeat text that has already been stated word-for-word in the very first sentence of the introduction. For the sake of brevity, I'm declining this request. Altamel (talk) 21:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2015

The third paragraph of the article includes the following sentence: "Perhaps fifteen of his paintings have survived, the small number because of his constant, and frequently disastrous, experimentation with new techniques, and his chronic procrastination."

Please remove the last four words of the sentence (and the comma), ", and his chronic procrastination" because what evidence is there that he procrastinated. I find it hard to believe that a person with so many talents that he clearly developed could be said to have "chronic procrasternation"?

2607:F470:6:5001:7156:F79B:B22A:9FEF (talk) 10:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Note: This does not imply that the statement is correct, but it seems that it was added in 2007. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 18:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

I added a "Citation needed" tag there. Can someone find any evidence that he "procrastinated"? I am also pinging PiCo because it seems like he inserted this in an edit about 8 years ago. Tony Tan⁹⁸ · talk 21:53, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Eight years ago! Jezuz H. Christus! I certainly can't remember doing it, though that's hardly surprising. Nevertheless, Leonardo was indeed a chronic procrastinator. It's stated in all the biographies. Do you want me to look one up, or can someone else do it?PiCo (talk) 06:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Vasari is the first biographer responsible for that little "factoid", see here. I would agree with the OP that more evidence is required for this. When citing references on this issue, it will have to be explained to the reader that it is a particular biographer's opinion, rather than proven fact. It would be relatively easy to find references on people who have made accusations of procrastination (for example here), rather than find references on proof of what actually constitutes chronic procrastination. A lack of completion of works is not sufficient justification for accusing someone of chronic procrastination. One person's procrastination is another person's perfectionism. We know also for example that the Battle of Anghiari was not completed because disaster befell it, i.e. external factors beyond control. We know the bronze horse was not cast because the Moor decided to use the bronze instead for military purposes. We know that the Pope cut short a career in anatomy, thereby delaying the completion and therefore publication of an intended treatise in anatomy. One could argue that not completing a work such as the Adoration of the Magi was the result of procrastination, however some biographers consider this to be in as finished a state as it could possibly be (I'm sure I could find references for that). Isabella d'Este was impatient to receive her portrait, and what she considered "delaying tactics" ignores the possibility of being extremely busy engaged with other affairs. If you examine the thousands of pages of notebooks (and that's only what has survived), you may wonder how time was ever found to do any painting at all! On the other hand many paintings are known to be "lost", which is hardly an indication of low output and certainly not proof of procrastination. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 20:15, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Every word that you say may well be true, but it's all OR. Find sources. (Please note that the issue isn't whether he was a chronic procrastinator, but whether this was in issue in his small output of paintings). PiCo (talk) 08:16, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

My point seems to have been lost. In essence I was agreeing and clarifying what the OP said, who was looking for support in his/her argument to remove the statement that had no references. The claim of "chronic procrastination" cannot be made in Wikipedia's voice, it requires references to even exist. Furthermore, I was explaining the difficulty in claiming "chronic procrastination" using examples of things that are proven to be unfinished (as well as paintings), not procrastinated. I was using examples to illustrate a point, not arguing for their inclusion (in which case I would have to provide sources, which I have no trouble doing, if you checked my contribution history). Simply put: If I said your hair is green does that mean your hair is green? No, it is not proof that your hair is green, but simply proof that someone said it was. Likewise if I called you a procrastinator that is not proof of procrastination but simply proof of a statement about procrastination. And so, getting back to the edit request - it needs to show in the sentence that it is "alleged" by such-and-such a biographer. Since I imagine it would be difficult to find references to PROVE "chronic procrastination", it is the easier option to find references for biographers who have been quoted as saying "Leonardo was a chronic procrastinator" (without them actually proving it). Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 14:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 22:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

To be fair to the OP, he can hardly produce a reliable source saying that Leonardo's small output was not due to procrastination. The issue is an important one - why did he produce so few paintings? What's needed is a source telling the reader why. The sentence now has a citation needed tag, which is quite legitimate, but someone has to do the work of looking this up. 01:32, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Using a double negative or reverse logic to justify the inclusion of a statement without sources is unencyclopedic. You are trying to mask the necessity of justifying a claim without sources by saying you need sources to justify its removal? Wikipedia doesn't work that way! That's like saying you know there is an afterlife simply because nobody has proved otherwise. Therefore you assume there is an afterlife because people haven't proven there isn't one. That is unscientific and unencyclopedic. In natural justice someone is innocent until proven guilty not the other way around. You don't assume guilt from the start, because then you suffer from confirmation bias when attempting to justify or explain it. Therefore, you sir, not I, are the one "using OR" in this instance. The phrase "chronic procrastination" should be removed as it is redundant to include an unverified assertion of unknown provenance, unknown origin, in the hope that a reference might exist somewhere. The phrase can always be added again if sources turn up. Rather than start an edit war, I will give notice here that it will be removed if no sources are found. Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 14:41, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Quick note- the Romans, who we base our system of justice on, used the system of guilty until proven innocent. The Pokémon Fan (talk) 01:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Most of the article has no reliable sources, beginning with the first sentence. If I removed everything that has no RS there's be about a third of it left. PiCo (talk) 05:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

An excellent suggestion! Leonardo da Vinci^Talk 11:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Deletion

I deleted a recent addition, referenced to an encyclopedia, that claimed that Leonardo influenced the course of Italian painting for over 100 years. This is a serious understatement. The introduction contains a paragraph that deals specifically with his role as painter. It includes the following statement:

"Perhaps fifteen of his paintings have survived, the small number because of his constant, and frequently disastrous, experimentation with new techniques.[nb 1] Nevertheless, these few works, together with his notebooks, which contain drawings, scientific diagrams, and his thoughts on the nature of painting, compose a contribution to later generations of artists rivalled only by that of his contemporary, Michelangelo."

This means that in the entire history of art, no-one has had more influence except perhaps Michelangelo. It is not about "art of Italy". It is not reduce to a hundred year time span. The influence continues 500 years later.

Amandajm (talk) 12:20, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Inaccurate use of "patronymic"?

I'm noticing that User:Wolfdog's June 3 2015 edit stating that "da Vinci" is patronymic seems at odds with the article text and references, general understanding, and isn't itself well-sourced.

The text below gives details on Leonardo's name, which in full form as recorded in birth records is "Lionardo di ser Piero da Vinci", that is, Leonardo, son of Sir Piero, of Vinci.

It seems that the "da Vinci" is not patronymic but is based on place or location. The fact that Leonoardo's father also was "da Vinci" seems to reflect on place rather than patronymic as well.

That would make Leonardo's name a combination of given ("Leonardo"), patronymic ("di ser Piero"), and place-based ("da Vinci"). And, that "da Vinci" itself isn't patronymic.

That said, none of history, name conventions or terminology, nor Leonardo himself are specific areas of expertise for me. But this looks incorrect in both fact and support.

Dredmorbius (talk) 23:29, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

And this has since been rectified. Dredmorbius (talk) 02:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Da Vinci's "tank."

I wonder if we shall ever see the end of this tedious insistence that Da Vinci "invented" or designed a "tank" (or even "the" tank). I have replaced the link to Tank with a link to Armoured Fighting Vehicle, which is at least arguable. We just have to tolerate the notion that wooden planks = "armour," there being no reliable evidence that the shell of the machine was made of anything else. The description "armoured vehicle" is not adequate, since that ignores the vehicle's armament and intended purpose - it could mean simply that the occupants were protected rather than armed. So "armoured fighting vehicle" will have to do. Leave aside that scarcely any aspect of this device would have worked; somehow, this doodle has achieved "notability," so it has to be represented in some fashion, but let us not exaggerate its properties in the way Da Vinci's worshippers do. He no more invented the tank than Jules Verne invented the submarine or H.G. Wells invented time travel (or the tank). Hengistmate (talk) 20:56, 8 July 2015 (UTC)