Talk:Later life of Winston Churchill/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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External links modified

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Churchill was due to be asked to retire in 1952

I recall in 1986 a biography of George VI which had not many years been published, but whose author I forgot, that there was concern after the Conservatives won the 1951 election about Churchill's health and that someone (I cannot recall who) had privately approached the king, who had recently had his lung removal operation, asking the latter to invite Churchill to retire (which would have made way for a new party leader to become Prime Minister instead) and that the king agreed to do this in "the new year" (1952) as he had "the constitutional prestige" (the biographer's words I recall) to make that approach. This was forestalled by the death of the king in February of 1952. I wonder if anyone with access to that biography could find this out. At the time I recall thinking the king's death cost the nation a few more years under a prime minister whose health continued to deteriorate. The book may have been published in the early 1980s as any record of the approach may have been subject to the 30 year rule.Cloptonson (talk) 15:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

I have today located the biography, by Dennis Judd (first published 1982) and found that no one had approached the King but Judd states the King was giving consideration while his own health was recovering, explaining that Churchill had had one stroke and was already slowing down. George VI felt it was time for Churchill to make way for Anthony Eden, who was the obvious heir to the premiership. Since none of Churchill's cabinet colleagues stood a chance of persuading him to stand down for Eden only the King had the necessary prestige to undertake the delicate task of suggesting that the time had arrived for Churchill's retirement. He decided that he would broach the subject in the new year. Judd does not mention if the king did do this. Unlike many other contemporary biographers, Judd does not give any reference footnotes. I may work this into the page's narrative.Cloptonson (talk) 14:49, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
I have added the detail, with the relevant passage quoted in the citation footnote.Cloptonson (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

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Funeral: Proposal to remove a comment

Quote: "The funeral also saw the largest assemblage of statesmen in the world since the funeral of President John F. Kennedy in 1963." Referenced by Gould, Peter (8 April 2005) "Largest Assemblage of Statesmen at funeral since Churchill". BBC News.
The link actually references the BBC News article by Gould, Peter (8 April 2005) "Holding history's largest funeral" about the funeral of Pope John Paul II -- quote: "The Italian media is comparing the funeral of John Paul II to those of Gandhi, Stalin, John F Kennedy and Churchill, and saying this will be bigger than all of them."
I've chosen to replace the quote presently in the article with information from winstonchurchill.org website that states "The funeral also saw the largest assemblage of statesmen in the world until the 2005 funeral of Pope John Paul II."--Brenont (talk) 02:39, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Operation Hope Not which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 02:20, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Proposal to merge Operation Hope Not into the Funeral section of this article, as suggested in the recent move discussion for that page, as an alternative to reducing the information here. U-Mos (talk) 22:17, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

NB The problem extant in the articles that requires a resolution is one of WP:CONTENTFORKING. My previous suggestion to rename Operation Hope Not to "Funeral of Winston Churchill" and reduce the information on this page did not gain support to go ahead. U-Mos (talk) 21:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose This article is sufficiently long as it is, and Operation Hope Not is unique on its own—it is not about Churchill's life, but about his death. I am just wondering why the "later life" should contain elaborate "funeral" anyway, life ends in death and not in funeral. Beside, there are additional information with which an interested editor can make an extensive expansion on OHN. At least for posterity, the articles may be left as they are. Chhandama (talk) 08:54, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment Chhandama: You have previously stated that Operation Hope Not is also not about Churchill's funeral - so where exactly would you like that information to be? U-Mos (talk) 21:48, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
You seemed to miss my words "per se". OHN should contain the funeral procedure as an execution of the plan. Of course, the other details can be in the main article, i.e. Winston Churchill. Chhandama (talk) 02:20, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Comment I'm a bit disappointed that this didn't get more traction at Requested moves, where I'd think editors would be familiar with the issues involved.  I suppose you could call an RfC to ask for broader discussion.  I've been thinking about this but haven't a firm opinion of the best way of handling it.  Clearly you don't want the same material repeated in two places.  I can see three ways of doing it:
  1. Have the funeral with Operation Hope Not (OHN).  It is the execution of the OHN plan, so a treatment there could include logistical details which might be considered trivial in the context of another article.  Within OHN, it could justify being the most detailed description and thus the main treatment of the funeral (to which other articles could hatnote and summarize as befitting their own contexts).
  2. Merge OHN into this article.  OHN could first be mentioned in § Secret disability crisis of 1953, and then pick up again in the funeral section.  This article is under 5,000 words (half the maximum recommended size) so it isn't too long to take on a bit more content.
  3. Create a third standalone article just for the funeral, with both of these linking to it.  The funeral has enough notability for its own article.  The other articles could summarize it and/or cover only the parts relevant to their own contexts.  This way, OHN could stay focused on its operation and not the broader aspects of the funeral, while for this article funeral doesn't especially fit under later life.
Again, I can see arguments but I don't know which is the best way.  Depending on the option chosen, a move discussion may also be (re)considered. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:
I feel Operation Hope Not should remain a separate article under the current title, as the article isn't only about Churchill's funeral. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 20:19, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, to Reidgreg in particular, for your input. To move forward, I would suggest that this proposal (for option 1 above) is closed, as it does not have support. I created it for procedural reasons, after it was suggested by SmokeyJoe in the OHN move discussion, and don't personally think it is the best solution.

If there are no objections, I would then move to edit the articles so the funeral is considered primarily at Operation Hope Not, not here, fixing any forked content and having OHN linked to as the main article from the section on this page.

If these edits are accepted, I would like (if permitted) to re-nominate OHN for a move to Funeral of Winston Churchill to allow for full discussion to take place. Or, if more appropriate, another editor can make that nomination. This can (and I now recognise should be) left until after the content forking is fixed.

Of course, if anyone wishes to speak up for the third option above (establishing a separate article for the funeral), they are welcome to do so. My view is there is enough material and notability to justify one separate article on Churchill's funeral, but not two. U-Mos (talk) 22:26, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Proceeded as suggested above. Please see Talk:Operation Hope Not#Requested move 17 November 2018. U-Mos (talk) 02:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

HELP KENYA'S YOUTHS.

Help us Kenya's Youths, we really want to start a business that will enable us sustain ourselves from hard life in Kenya but we don't have capital. Please help us with capital to our own businesses. James Odhiambo Omondi (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

The above has no connection to the article. Mcljlm (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Churchill was a racist

Churchill was a racist He said "keep England white a good slogan" In 1955, I read it here. You have removed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IndianlivesMatter (talk • contribs) 07:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps, though it is not primary sourced: Harold MacMillan said Churchill said it, here:

"The Macmillan Diaries: The Cabinet Years 1950-57". Book by Harold Macmillan, p. 382, June 6, 2003. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.230.132.242 (talk) 17:26, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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