Talk:Johnny Appleseed/Archive 1

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Archive 1

2008 movie

There's a movie announced for 2008 about Johnny Appleseed in case anyone feels like adding it to the article [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scotty jeffery (talk • contribs) 07:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Johnny Appleseed at the Simpsons

Should there be a "Popular"-section, where some references to Johnny Appleseed are mentioned? I'm thinking of the Simpsons episode "Simpsons Tall Tales", where Johnny Appleseed is represented by Lisa as "Conny Appleseed". --82.119.13.109 17:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


npov

this page might need a little less "yeah, verily!" and a bit more npov.

The bulk of the article is copied from an account of Appleseed in an 1862 book (as noted in the article), and reflects the literary style of that period. Feel free to update it. --Blainster 19:58, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Disney History

While I tend to agree with the statement about Disney's lack of integrity with historical representations, it might be misunderstood here. If someone loves Disney, they might think the article is implying that the history in the cartoon is sound. Thepearl 20:03, 6 March 2006 (UTC)thepearl

The Disney sentence has been removed from the introduction. The cartoon is already mentioned in the Pop culture section. --Blainster 06:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Died as a child

Not sure how it could be better phrased, but the following line seems like a paradox:

Johnny was sickly as a child, and he died in his sleep.

To me this first read as 'While a child he became ill and then died in his sleep, having never grown up to plant trees'. -- anon. user 16 March 2006

The sentence has been rephrased to remove the ambiguity. --Blainster 06:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is he referred to as Johnny and not as Chapman?

It is the accepted style to refer to a biographical figure by their last name. I don't think that the fact that he is known as Johnny Appleseed changes that. It seems very odd to read an encyclopedia entry where the subject is referred to only by his first name. Anybody else care to chime in here?

You are correct. I fixed it. Pollinator 18:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's odd, but changing it didn't fix it.

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Subsequent uses of names suggests the use of surnames is preferable to the first name, because "The use of the first name gives the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, which, even if true, is not relevant." However, it gives examples of where something other than the first name is appropriate, and it's easy to find others:

  • In the article on Antonio de Padua María Severino López de Santa Anna y Pérez de Lebrón, for instance, the subject is NEVER referred to by his surname of Lopez, but as "Santa Anna", which is simply the name of the town he comes from. Why? Because it's how he's known.
  • In the article on Mary Ann Evans, the author is referred to repeatedly as only Mary Ann, and as only Marian, but just once only as Evans, her initial surname, and never only as Cross, her other surname.
  • In the article on Roseanne Barr, she never is referred to by only her surname of "Thomas", but she is repeatedly referred to only as Roseanne - because that's what she's known as.
  • The article on Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom refers to her only as Elizabeth, never as "Windsor", her surname.

The article on Mark Twain switches back and forth between Twain and Clemens, for he was almost as well known by one name as his other - but that's not true of Johnny Appleseed. They didn't carve "Chapman" on his original grave marker - they carved "Johnny Appleseed". And nobody called him "Appleseed" or "Mr. Appleseed", any more that people call Meat Loaf Mr. Loaf (with the exception of the New York Times, although they called him Johnny. Using the name Johnny does not give the impression that the writer knows the subject personally, and is entirely appropriate. ClairSamoht 02:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why Johny Appleseed could be an exception to the rule, but I don't think calling him Johnny is the right answer. He may not be commonly known as Chapman, but he's also not commonly known just as Johnny. I'd still advocate for Chapman, but perhaps sticking with the full name Johnny Appleseed could work too.210.86.142.18 05:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree; using the full "Johnny Appleseed" shouldn't put anybody's undies in a bundle. ClairSamoht 08:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
All that aside, why does the article refer to him as "John" Chapman when his name was Jonathan? It gives the impression that the author confuses "John Appleseed" with Jon (sic) Chapman. Idontcareanymore (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Waverly Root in His Book, "Food," Claimed That Johnny Appleseed's Apple-of-Preference was the "Rambo"

  • According the entry for "Apple," in Waverly Root's "Food," a sort of coffee table volume encyclopedia published in the late 1970s -- and an essential tome for the library of any food-lover-- John Chapman's favored apple to spread was the Rambo. Root further states that in Indiana where (Root claims) Chapman ended his wanderings, the Rambo is (or was at the time "Food" was published) still sold in Indiana markets, but not in many others in the U.S.
  • Also, in 1989, I met a fellow surnamed Chapman in New York City who claimed that Johnny Appleseed as a distant ancestor. He asserted that part of the John Chapman lore was that Johnny Appleseed was the accidental paramour of many a lonely rural female -- and that apple seeds were not the only sort of seed he was renowned for "disseminating" in his travels.The preceding was unsigned but posted by 71.250.176.20 21:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC) He's also a cool guy
If Root said that, he was wrong. Johnny Appleseed would clear land, plant seeds, and leave the nursery in the hands of a local, who would sell the trees on shares. When you plant seeds, every tree that grows is a new variety of apple. Besides, the Rambo has never been popular in Ohio and Indiana - it's a favorite in the Maryland/Virginia area.
There weren't many lonely women on the frontier at the time; a woman alone couldn't survive because there were too many tasks requiring upper body strength. Johnny Appleseed was never known to have had a girlfriend. Was he homosexual, as Swedenborg was? ClairSamoht 05:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To Ms ClairSamoht -- I do not wish to become involved in controversy, nor am I a Jonathan Chapman expert. I did, however, once meet a bona fide lineal descendant of Jonathan Chapman who maintained that it is a traditional bit of lore in his clan that Johnny Appleseed left progeny scattered hither, thither and yon around and about the regions he wandered. But I've also read, as you've noted, that he was shy of women -- this latter account is more in line with nature mystics, who like Chapman, may have been repressed homosexuals (others, not - the vast majority of people no matter what their gender preference, were sexually repressed for most of human history in the West, and throughout the 19th century in particular) and who sublimated their sexuality into their experience of nature. E.g., Francis of Assisi, or Henry David Thoreau, who admitted to being completely flummoxed as to how persons of the feminine gender could interest a man who thinks (young women were often stereotyped as "flibberty gibberts" in Thoreau's day) and who also wrote that Nature was his bride....
  • On the Rambo -- more completely known, as I now see, as the "Summer Rambo" since it ripens around August 25 - only after I wrote those Waverly Root comments I googled [Rambo Johnny Appleseed](no brackets or quotes) and found many pages linking the Rambo variety with Johnny Appleseed, including in one of the first hits mentioning a very old Rambo apple tree in Nova, Ohio from which grafts are still taken and sold as bits of plantable and treasurable Americana. Possibly this is just lore and no more, but it is still relevant information in a Johnny Appleseed discussion.
The Rambo and Summer Rambo are different apples, just as the Delicious and Yellow Delicious are different apples. Both are fairly good apples, especially compared with the kind of apples typically resulting from planting seed, but their connection with Johnny Appleseed is that they have falsely been connected to the missionary by someone who was either grossly exploitative, or else engaged in wishful thinking of the "boy, that tree is old, why that could have come from Johnny Appleseed" variety. Delbertlatta (talk) 18:16, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Finally, if you wish, you may google [farmer's daughter jokes] and in the third hit, at evula.com, find instanced a situation that may partly explain -- if only from a tradition of humor of dubious taste -- the claim (now practically impossible to demonstrate except by genetic testing)that Jonathan Chapman sired many so-called "illegitimate" children, as is the tradition among at least some of his descendants. There may not have been many lonely women on the American frontier in the late 18th and early to mid 19th century -- I don't really think that even the most learned historian could state such a thing categorically with any certainty-- but there were certainly many young unmarried ones in dire need of a husband, if only because there may not have been an even numerical match in the vicinity between the number of marriageable males and the number of available nubile unmarried females. The vulgar jest at evula.com, as with so many others, suggests how a wanderer like Chapman with little libidinal interest in women -- or in any human -- might have been deliberately and dishonestly assigned parentage of a child he did not in fact himself sire by one or more desperate pregnant young women who wished to shield their unborn children or what was left of their reputations or that of actual fathers, or all three, from the local "torch and pitchfork crowd" (a regular, episodic ad hoc upwelling of the self-righteous who have ever been true believers in "Tough Love" for the unrighteous throughout American history in so many of our local [and not only rural]communites of God-fearing, church-going, All-Americans). With all good wishes, L.Massano, New Jersey.
The tree in Nova, Ohio was part of an orchard planted in the 1780s.[2] Given that he was born in 1774, he would have been between six and sixteen years old, before he became "Johnny Appleseed".
Johnny was on extremely good terms with the native Americans. When a respected person entered the village, the hospitality afforded him included a bedwarmer. Presumably, the idea was that the traveler would improve the genetic stock of the village's children. Every generation seems to think that they invented sex, but there would be some on the wilderness who would have welcomed a joyous three-way romp. Additionally, life on the frontier was hazard-prone, and some disabled men would have welcomed children through in-vivo germ donation. Unlike most faiths, Swedenborg taught that there was sex in heaven, and that even angels had sex, so I don't think his religious faith would have stopped Johnny from participating in friendly friction. But there are no credible sources stating which way JA swung, so it's not something Wikipedia can address.
There are women with decidedly masculine names, such as Michael Learned, but in general Claire is the feminine form of the name, and Clair indicates a male. Mr. ClairSamoht 02:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
just want to mention I much appreciate the way you've 'upgraded' this entry, nice work. Bustter 08:10, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

teetotaler or drinker?

Cecil Adams writes, "He was deeply religious – sometimes insufferably so – but he drank and took snuff and told jokes."

The article calls him a "teetotaler," but no source is offered. Bustter 22:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[3] Not Cecil Adams, but a staff report by C K Dexter Haven. Here's a related forum thread at the Straight Dope Message Board: Wikipedia vs. Dex. Femto 11:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA nomination

I've failed this good article nomination because of inappropriate citations. None of the footnotes provide a page number for book or magazine citations or an access date for online citations, nor are any of the book or magazine citations presented in a standard format. Notes 1 and 12 and notes 8 and 14 appear to be duplicates, which is puzzling because the article also uses multiple references to the same footnote. There also seems to be a very heavy reliance on online sources: why are there no footnotes to most of the volumes listed as further reading? Feel welcome to resubmit after these issues have been addressed. Durova 16:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to a query on my talk page, all of the book and magazine citations should have a page number. The Chicago Manual of Style or some other standard reference provides information on how to lay these out. Wikipedia guidelines recommend including access dates with online references (which is easy enough to do - just double check them and add today's date) and a fuller citation than the article name is preferable when possible: author name, publication date (if available), site or publication name as well as article title. It looks as if someone has put a good faith effort into raising this to GA status. Please keep up the good work and renominate when ready. I would have left the above as a recommendation rather than a decision if the nomination hadn't already been up for several weeks. Regards, Durova 21:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Bill Shurtleff

The writers of this article would do well to read what is widely considered the best (most carefully researched, well documented, and well written) biography of this important American: "Johnny Appleseed: Man and Myth," by Robert Price (Indiana University Press) - instead of relying on so many Internet sources which do not lcearly distinguish between the man and the myth. Bill Shurtleff 2006 Sept. 8

Thank you for your kind comments, sir. I wrote most this article. I read Price's book in the 1960s and in the early 1970s and again in the early 1980s to compare it to Fortriede's 1978 "Johnny Appleseed: The Man Behind the Myth". I found Fortriede's work to be clearly superior.
Professor Price was a professor of English at Otterbein, and the book is well written, but he's a better writer than historian; he tends to fill in the gaps with his imagination. Incidently, his book wasn't published by Indiana University Press but by Peter Smith, in 1954. I'm given to understand Otterbein republished it in 2001. Fortriede is not a historian, either, but a librarian, and like Price, a Johnny Appleseed fan.
As a collaborative work, Wikipedia's standard isn't that everything be true, because it's impossible to determine. Instead, the standard is that everything be verifiable, by reliable sources. Contrary to your assertion, the best sources, in this case, are Harper's and Howe's, both of which were published in the 19th century by authors who talked to people who knew Johnny, not material published in the latter half of the 20th century.
"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure." - Segal's Law. I hope you won't be insulted if I point out that the man who has read one book about Johnny Appleseed knows the facts, and I, having read many, am less sure. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 00:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


GA Review

I have placed this article on hold for the time being. There is one issue I have (see below about quotes), and I think it's something that someone familiar with the article can easily and quickly fix. I took a look at the comments that the previous reviewer, as well as looking at a few other biographies that have been assigned GA/FA Status. My full comments follow:

1. Is it well written? - Pass

There a just a few (minor) nits here, but nothing major enough to affect GA status. There are a few places where the prose of the article got a little too colloquial. For example "Johnny Appleseed spent the rest of his life as a solo act", and the use of a contraction "It's impossible to produce named-variety apples by planting seeds". For a GA, they're not much of a problem, though if bringing the article to FA is a goal, I think making sure the article maintains an encyclopedic tone is important.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable? - Needs Improvement

Overall, the article is wonderfully cited. However there are a couple of places where lack the of an inline citation seems significant - his obituary and the letter from John Archer.

In addition, the other two long quotes did not provide a cite directly. I did notice that those cases the cite comes before the quote. I'm guessing that the cite also applies to the quote itself. However, with the placement of the cite I'm not sure. I'm not really comfortable passing the article if without being sure of the source for direct quotes.

3. It is broad in its coverage. - Pass

This really is an excellent article that explains a lot about the subject.

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy. - Pass

The article keeps a good tone, focusing on the facts of his life and keeping the man from folklore separate.

5. It is stable - Pass

Not much non-formatting changes since it was nominated.

6. It contains images - Pass

The images in the article were very appropriate, and helped add depth to the article.

As listed above, the only concern that I have are with the citations for the long, direct quotes. For me, at least, that's significant enough to hold off a little bit. Honestly, other than that, this is one of the better articles I've seen up for GA. --- The Bethling(Talk) 01:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

In order to provide "typographic color", and to make it clearer where longer excerpts begin and end, Template:cquote is being utilized. However, Template:cquote doesn't like footnotes to follow; instead of putting the superscripted number where it should be, it drops down quite a ways, and ends up floating in space, at the left margin, where it appears to be meaningless typographic flotsam; without any other type next to it, one cannot even determine that it's a superscript rather than a subscript. The end of an excerpt necessarily is the end of a paragraph, so the only place to put the footnote is on the material that leads into the excerpt.
The alternative would be to put the footnote inside the cquote, but that would indicate to users that the footnote itself was part of the quotation, so that option was ruled out.
Thanks for taking the effort to carefully consider the nomination. I appreciate your work. ClairSamoht - Help make Wikipedia the most authoritative source of information in the world 07:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I've never really used the cquotes before and wasn't aware of that limitation. Everything is fine now :) --- The Bethling(Talk) 07:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Appleseed Day

The reference for the two Appleseed days is being posted here instead of in the article, because the external link contains a banner ad that is meant to confuse the reader into thinking it is a Windows system message. Please ignore the "You have won the Prize" ad. --Blainster 22:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Commercial website reference question

I am copying the converation below from my and 66.38.39.28's Talk pages. The other user removed the reference from this sentence:

Nurseries offer the Johnny Appleseed tree as an immature apple tree for planting, with scions from the Algeo stock grafted on them.[1]

  1. ^ The Johnny Appleseed Tree Retrieved September 12, 2006 from http://www.historictrees.org/produ_ht/johnappl.htm

I think the ref should stay (I did not add it nor do I have any interest, financial or otherwise in the apple trees in question). What do you think?

Message from 66.38.39.28

I removed the commercial link from this page which I see you have reverted. There is no unique detailed information as this reference refers to. Only a commercial page selling apple trees. My thoughts are a better non-commercial reference should be found for this article and this one removed. What you reverted only supports other come to wikipedia and spamming with commercial links. Seasoned editors should be setting an example here. 66.38.39.28 13:40, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply from Ruhrfisch

Thanks for your message about my reversion of your edit to Johnny Appleseed. I watch the article, but did not write it (I did some copyedits on it once for a friend). According to Wikipedia's verifiablity policy, all facts in articles should be referenced. Since the article states the Johnny Appleseed apple trees are commerically available, this needs a reference. If the reference is removed, the statement it supports should be removed too.

On another note, I do not know of any policy prohibiting references to commercial websites on Wikipedia (if you do, could you give me the link please?). I searched for other suppliers of such trees on Google and did not find any obvious ones in the first 20 or so hits. It is not like the article says please buy trees from this firm. Someone would have to read the whole article and follow the reference link to see this commercial website.

Since Wikipedia is supposed to work by consensus, I will raise this issue at Talk:Johnny Appleseed. I will paste in our discussion so far. You are welcome to add to the talk page and make your case. Sound good? Yours, Ruhrfisch 03:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio material removed

I just removed WP:Copyvio material copied directly (cut and paste) from here on the Chapman family home in Longmeadow, MA. It is interesting and probably worthy of inclusion, but I am not enough of an expert on JA to jusge if it merits inclusion here. Could someone who knows more about him decide this please? Thanks, Ruhrfisch 20:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I removed See also, Jonathan (apple) as there is no obvious connection between the two. Ruhrfisch 13:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Interesting phrase

The first paragraph says that Johnny Appleseed was a "missionary for poop in the Church of the New Jerusalem"

Is this a technical term?

23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC) 203.97.107.139 23:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Possibly misleading phrasing?

The article states that Johnny Appleseed was a "missionary for the Church of the New Jerusalem, founded by Emanuel Swedenborg". While it is true that the Church of the New Jerusalem is based on books written by Swedenborg, the Swedenborgianism page states that "[Swedenborg] himself never tried to establish an organization". Would a better phrasing be "the Church of the New Jerusalem, based on the theological writings of Emanuel Swedenborg"?

iPhone relevance

I have removed this sentence just now (and have removed something similar before): "Apple Inc. recently begin to use his name in demonstration video of the iPhone, possibly as a reference." I do not think this is that relevant to the article, but wanted to see what others thought. I have also removed a reference in the past to Lisa playing "Connie Appleseed" in a Simpsons episode. These just don't seem encyclopdic to me - what do others think? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that a commercial campaign -- unless IT becomes a subject of serious discussion -- does not deserve mention here. However, what it does speak to is the centrality of the concept of "apple" in English-languge discourse. Apple is the quintessential fruit. The legend of Johnny would not have grown had he been Johnny Apricotpit. See Common Ground's Apple Day for a modern festival linked to this notion of apple as all that is good. Perhaps you could work in wording along these lines? BrainyBabe 11:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This seems reasobnable, but I do not know a reference to cite for this and without one, it seems to be original research.Do you have a ref or refs for this? Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

NOFX

There is a song by the well-known punk band NOFX about this Man, it is itself called "Johnny Appleseed". Is that relevant? 84.175.31.253 00:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

  • The NOFX article does not mention this song, so I would say no. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 10:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Because NOFX article doesn't mention it doesn't mean that the song does not exist. I say it is relevant. Angry bee (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I do not doubt it exists. Do you have a reliable source other than NOFX discussing the song? The basic idea is that to be mentioned here, it should be a notable song in some way. Currently it is still not mentioned in the NOFX article and it is mentioned only as a title on the White Trash, Two Heebs and a Bean album article (I did not look at every NOFX article, so it may be mentioned elsewhere). Just because something with the name "Johnny Appleseed" exists is not usually sufficient grounds to include it here. For me, one thing to think about is whether it is important enough to the band to be mentioned in the band's article. Since it is not, that makes me doubtful that it should be mentioned here (it was not even released as a single, did not chart, did not win any awards that I can see). What makes the song important enough to mention in this article? Ruhrfisch ><>°° 21:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

horse nonsense

The idea he bought old horses then a couple of acres and left them to fend for themselves through winter, wild animals, etc. is ridiculous but this article is so far from a encyclopedia level I left it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.118.109.180 (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:JohnnyAppleseed1948.jpg

Image:JohnnyAppleseed1948.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Link for the blind and visually impaired

I am 20 years old and blind. I am interested in adding relevant items to wiki that help the blind "visualize" and grasp the subjects at hand. I love the tradition of oral storytelling. I have added a link to a radio story by The American Storyteller. --Trgwilson (talk) 20:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Date of death

We assert boldly in the lead that he died 18 February, then much later we acknowledge the uncertainty about the date. We mention what many consider to be the primary source, the Fort Wayne Sentinel obit, which says he died 18 March. But we give no sources (that I can find) that support 18 February. The web produces various dates – 18 February, 10, 11 and 18 March, the March ones greatly outweighing the February one. If we have to pick one date, it seems to me that 18 March would be the one. But it may be even better to give no specific date, discuss why we’re not sure (and nobody’s sure), provide the best sources for each of the alternatives, and let readers decide for themselves. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the lede and infobox to say March 18 rather than February 18. That's because we provide evidence for the former date, but nothing for the latter date. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
  • The infobox says March 11, but the article cites two sources for March 18 as the date of death. Perhaps we need to imbed a warning not to change date without proof. As of now, I'll leave it be to see if anyone responds soon. Sir Rhosis (talk) 17:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hard Cider and Alcohol

I've heard rumors that many of the apples planted were not varieties suitable for consumption. Instead, they were intended to make hard cider, one of the easiest ways to make alcohol in the early 19th century. Any substantiation to this claim? -kslays (talk • contribs) 15:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Definitely. Have a look at Michael Pollan's The Botany of Desire. Guettarda (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Alcohol also kept longer (harder for bugs to eat it) and was more compact for transport. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:20, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a reference so we can put it in the article? -kslays (talk • contribs) 20:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
One reference is here on page 78-79 Why Do Donuts Have Holes?: Fascinating Facts about what We Eat and Drink

By Don Voorhees, Published by Citadel Press, 2004, ISBN 0806525517, 9780806525518, 277 pages —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmenn (talk • contribs) 18:21, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Value of estate?

It says he left land "worth millions even then". That seems like a highly inflated evaluation to me. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Johnny Appleseed was also the title of a song by Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros. http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Johnny-Appleseed-lyrics-Joe-Strummer-The-Mescaleros/84EE8391E0DE490C48256DD50010D8C7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.221.32 (talk) 08:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Path to the West?

Is this "most famous event" for real? I can't find anything about "Licking the 'Path to The West.'" Clarityfiend (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Citation number 20

Citation number twenty: "The Straight Dope on Johnny Appleseed". Straight Dope. Retrieved on 2006-09-05.

It is cited by a sentence which claims that Johnny Appleseed's estate was worth millions when he died and even more now. The article which is referenced makes no such claim. It only claims that "He left an estate that included some 1,200 acres of prime real estate." It's value, past or present, isn't stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.103.183 (talk) 21:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Apple Seeds

"He obtained the apple seeds for free; cider mills wanted more apple trees planted since it would eventually bring them more business."

There's a problem with all this talk of seeds. Apple trees don't go from seeds -- well, at least not the ones we use. Apples won't go true to seed. You can't plant seeds and expect to get apples that are of any use for cider. That's why apple trees are propagated by grafting. Out of the thousands of cultivars of apples that we know, you could probably count on your 10 fingers those that can grow true to seed: Antonovka Apples (90% of the time), Fameuse Apples (almost always true to seed), Beautiful Arcade (65% of the time) are three examples.

Now, there is something called "chance seedings." You toss a seed in the ground, by accident (such as Granny Smith) or on purpose, to see if any useful new kind of apple tree will spring up from it. And maybe Johnny was tossing seed around because maybe that's what he was doing, just seeing if any new useful kinds of apples would emerge. He would have known what he was doing, though -- chance experimentation. He wouldn't have tossed seeds in the ground and promised cider mills they were going to get anything they could use.

I am not going to change this in the article, just pointing this out.

Randal Oulton (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There are sources that discuss this that need to be added - my understanding is that at least some (most?) of the apples were for (hard) cider as that could be stored and transported, much like whiskey from grain. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 02:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
while it is true that orchards use grafting to ensure that they get the specific varieties of apples desired, these grafts must still be grafted onto an existing apple tree, which certainly at that time would have been easiest to grow from seed. I expect it was to establish orchards of rootstock trees that Johnny undertook his mission. Cy Guy (talk) 05:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Corrected Volume Number of (1871) Johnny Appleseed: A Pioneer Hero, Harper's New Monthly Magazine, XLIII

The volume number is 43 as compared with a hard copy of Harper's Magazine. The external reference also cites 43. The volumne number was incorrectly specified as LXIV RalphOnTheRailroad (talk) 22:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect title for Steven Fortriede.

I am not sure how this gets corrected but I saw that this article refers to Steven Fortriede as the Director of the Allen County Public Library. This is incorrect. He is (was) the Associate Director of the Allen County Public Library. He was never the Director. Here http://www.acpl.lib.in.us/aboutus/ar/ar2003.pdf is a link to a .pdf from the ACPL and on page 20 it says the director and assoc director names (Krull and Fortriede). http://acplkids.blogspot.com/2009/03/happy-retirement-steve-fortriede.html is a link to Fortriede's retirement where it refers to him as the associate director. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smmell (talk • contribs) 23:43, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Over-zealous "Citation needed"

As of right now, there are a ton of these in the article. Any sentence without a reference at the end has one. I fixed one that had one in in the middle, but the offending information was clearly in the referenced source AT THE END of the sentence. This whole business seems a little ridiculous to me, but I suppose someone ought to play along and verify everything. I will try to do this in my spare time--I kind of want a project--but it would probably better for someone who is already familiar with the subject. Mabsal (talk) 00:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Pan or pot for hat

There are currently conflicting statements in the article as to whether he wore a pot on his head. In "Subsistence lifestyle" it says it was a myth (unsourced). Later in 'Attitudes towards animals', quoting a contemporaneous story about him recounted by Henry Howe says "Johnny, who wore on his head a tin utensil which answered both as a cap and a mush pot," Now it is true that contemporary stories can be myths, but this is from someone who had collected many stories about Johnny during his lifetime - and he did have to carry a cooking pot with him somehow. I am tempted to delete the assertion that wearing the pot was a myth, but because it is unsourced I have no basis to delete OR keep it. Cy Guy (talk) 05:00, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Marfan Syndrome

I'd like to cut the whole section. It's silly and has no citations. Can we just say he is usually depicted as skinny? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.142.32.66 (talk) 01:10, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Sources and unsourced information

I removed anything that was unsourced, most of which was tagged unsourced from back in 2009. I know that removes a lot of information but it can't be in the article if it isn't sourced. I also removed anything that I couldn't rewrite to work into a paragraph or section without the unsourced material, including the entire health section which was entirely unsourced. Cat-five - talk 22:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is the edit and diff. Cat-five - talk 22:14, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Surviving apple tree

Urbana University, located in Urbana, OH, maintains the world's only Johnny Appleseed Museum, which is open to the public. The museum hosts a number of artifacts, including a tree that is believed to have been planted by Johnny Appleseed... Supposedly, the only surviving tree planted by Johnny Appleseed is on the farm of Richard and Phyllis Algeo of Nova, Ohio[35

Aren't these two statements contradictory? Isn't the museum on campus?

98.125.20.11 (talk) 04:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC) Bob December 24, 2011

Video

(copying from my talk page)

@Troylangman: I removed it because it is unnotable trivia. If you think it should be in the article, please provide a few independent reliable sources that discuss the video's use of Johnny Appleseed. --NeilN talk to me 06:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

"I have traveled over 4000 miles…"

I've removed the line He once wrote, "I have traveled more than 4,000 miles about this country, and I have never met with one single insolent Native American.". While I don't doubt this reflects Chapman's sentiments, if a source is attributing this to him then the source is wrong. This is a direct quotation from William Cobbett's A Year's Residence in the United States of America (original appearance here). In any case, in the period in question the term "Native American" referred to American-born whites; the indigenous population were eferred to either as "Indians" or by the name of their tribe. – iridescent 17:23, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Contradiction between sections on subject of marriage

The "Family" section lists two marriages in his life, while the "Attitude Towards Marriage" section says "Johnny Appleseed did not marry during his lifetime." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.202.128.61 (talk) 14:03, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Mac Virus

There is a virus going around that replaces documents on a Mac computer with John Appleseed quotes. Does anyone know how to remove it? QuentinUK (talk) 12:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


Marriage information

He can't both have remained single AND have been married twice (having had 10 children in the second instance). The information is contradictory and calls the article into question. --CMacMillan (talk) 19:04, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

@CMacMillan: Please read the article again. That was his father. --NeilN talk to me 19:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Johnny Appleseed Chapman

It is important to note about Johnny appleseed is that he did quite a lot to improve the health and nutrition of the wilderness people he met and the early pioneers in America. The apple is a good source of water soluble vitamins. The B complex and C were not in plentiful supply due to the use of one source of carbohydrate in the early diets. They also have a lot of fiber and pectin that relieves constipation, a major medical problem of the day. He recognized that people who ate apples lived longer, healthier lives then carried this message by planting the trees. A second source of dietary improvement was from the improvement of the pioneers protein intake from animal sources. The left overs can be fed to farm animals like cattle, sheep, and hogs. The pioneers orchards could also attract edible wild animals like deer, bears, and birds to harvest. In essence he was one of our first public health practitioners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.128.191.169 (talk) 02:23, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

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Was he vegetarian or not?

The article states he was a vegetarian but his death notice (only one paragraph below) says "he ate meat". That's a serious contradiction! 217.250.168.53 (talk) 08:00, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Married?

Family section indicates that he was married twice. The Attitudes on Marriage states that he never married. Lsburton (talk) 03:12, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

It indicates nothing of the kind—it says (correctly) that Nathaniel married twice but John never married. ‑ Iridescent 07:12, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

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Death of brother Nathaniel

The second paragraph of the Family topic says that Johnny Appleseed's mother died shortly after giving birth to her son Nathaniel and that this baby died shortly after. However, the third paragraph says that Johnny had a half-brother by the name of Nathaniel who lived to the age of at least 11. There should be some clarification here as it seems unlikely that a Johnny's father would name a child Nathaniel after his child of the same name died. In fact, the third paragraph is entirely unsourced and therefore, unreliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cokusiak (talk • contribs) 03:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Reference #20, "Archived copy". Archived from the original on September 25, 2015. Retrieved May 13, 2015. Is an invalid link and should be removed or updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cokusiak (talk • contribs) 03:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

It was common practice historically to "re-use" the name of a deceased child; Vincent van Gogh and Ludwig van Beethoven are a couple of high-profile figures from around this time who were named after their dead brothers. We have a (rather poor quality) article on the practice at necronym. ‑ Iridescent 07:05, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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Should probably mention Dog Fennel as well

He planted that as well and is now considered a villain by many people for spreading it around. I'll gather sources. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Ref is here. Can't quite decide where to put it, though. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 00:33, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

You could make a new section called "Criticism". A lot of articles have a section showing opposition views. Personally, when an article has no opposition views, I tend to question the objectivity of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.123.208.30 (talk) 17:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

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Contradiction in marital status

The Family section states that he was married twice based on references in a swedenborg.org article[1], while the last section of Life states that he never married, based on a reference in a book published by the Swedenborg Foundation Press.[2]

Since both references are from essentially the same source, what's the process for reconciling the differences here? Baggend (talk) 20:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "John Chapman". Swedenborg.org. Archived from the original on May 17, 2015. Retrieved 2015-06-06. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. ^ Silverman, Ray (2012). The core of Johnny Appleseed: the unknown story of a spiritual trailblazer. Pennsylvania: Swedenborg Foundation Press. p. 73. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)

Birth - Military - Post-Military

While Nathaniel was in military service, his wife died (July 18, 1776) shortly after giving birth to a second son, Nathaniel Jr., who died a few days later. Chapman ended his military service and returned home in 1780 to Longmeadow, Massachusetts. In the summer of 1780 he married Lucy Cooley of Longmeadow, Massachusetts, and they had 10 children.

Born in 1774, he ENDED his military service and married for a second time when he was six years old?

Whbjr (talk) 00:48, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

All that applies to his dad, not to lil Johnny. I've replaced Chapman with Nathaniel for clarity.--regentspark (comment) 01:01, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Siblings and Half-Siblings

The current version describes John as the second child from Nathaniel Snr's first marriage to Elizabeth, and Nathaniel Jr (who died young) as the second son. John's entirely implied sister is named in the swedenborg.org link as another Elizabeth. We can infer also from the current text (and again it's clearly stated in that link) that the third Nathaniel was John's half-brother, rather than brother, born to Lucy, but it takes a couple of reads to figure this out. I think this needs a good clarification, but am reluctant to do so as the swedenborg.org link contains no references of any kind (and, if I'm being unfair, is the work of a faith organisation). Can anyone oblige, with some reliable literature? AndyI 16:03, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

"The Lord Is Good to Me"

The article suggests the song "The Lord is Good to Me" originated with Johnny Appleseed himself. The text and music were written by Kim Gannon and Walter Kent. [1] Tpairan (talk) 15:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "The Lord is Good to Me," LifeSongs Songbook, Minneapolis: Augsburg Fortress, 1999.

Apple Cider theory

How well supported is this theory? Michael Pollan proposes it but he's an author not a historian or scientist. If he is the only one claiming it, then it might be WP:UNDUE weight to document this theory. More support and sources would be needed. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

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