Talk:John of Monmouth

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Family[edit]

I don't have access to the Kissack book, but, looking around, there seem to be several sources of confusion about John of Monmouth's family. It is known that it died out in the male line after John of Monmouth (died 1257).

One confusion goes back to William Dugdale. William III Longespée, son of William II Longespée married Maud de Clifford, daughter of Walter III de Clifford. Their daughter Isabel married a Sir Walter Waleran.[1] But the dates are badly wrong for that Walter to be the one mentioned in this article. There is a Salisbury connection for John of Monmouth, and for the Longespées: but it can't be in this form of Cecily's mother.

I'm now convinced that John of Monmouth (died 1257) was the son of the first marriage. The children as described are anyway incompatible with the ODNB, which in its article on John of Monmouth says his infant sons John and Philip were hostages taken by King John (i.e. by 1216). The old DNB article by A. F. Pollard says outright:

Monmouth married Cecilia, daughter and heiress of Walter de Waleron, and by her had apparently three sons, John, Philip, and William. Of these John alone survived, and had livery of his father's lands in 32 Hen. III (28 Oct. 1247, 27 Oct. 1248). He had two daughters, but no male issue, and died in 1257, leaving the castle and honour to Prince Edward.

Now it seems Pollard is wrong about the daughters: John of Monmouth the younger had two female coheirs, but they are identifiable as an aunt and a first cousin on Cecily's side (see modern ref in John of Monmouth (died 1257)). Older sources make those two aunts but one of the names is wrong for that and the second coheir Joan is apparently the daughter of Cecily's sister Isabelle Neville.

The same ref proposes that John of Monmouth (died 1257) had a half-brother, son of Agnes therefore, who was the John of Monmouth hanged for murder of Adam de Gilbert in 1280-1. This neatly disposes of other confusion in older sources, and explains what is written in this article to some extent. This other John may have married a daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon, as is said in some places.

If there is consensus that the more modern sources get this all right, I'll change the article. If there are different views that are recent and scholarly, they need both to be in the article. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:08, 12 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]