Talk:Jean Sibelius/Archive 1

Isn't it "Jan" Sibelius? I thought "Jean" was an anglicized version of the Finnish "Jan." (pronounced like "yawn")

"Sibelius has fallen in and out of fashion, but remains one of the most popular 20th century symphonists ..." In fact, he is by far the most popular according to a recent article in Helsingin Sanomat. Unfortunately I couldn't find any source to back up the fact.

Actually I believe that the remark about Cocktails and cold water was said by Sibelius to Mahler in comparison of musical styles and scoring.

Are we sure it's Sibelius 5 that the music notation software plays on startup? I thought it was Sibelius 7 (but I don't know Sibelius as well as I might, and could be mistaken). --Camembert

Hi Camembert, thanks for checking. I hardly know Sibelius at all but the product manual does say #5. (What a beautiful three seconds of music, I should go listen to the rest...) Opus33 00:32, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Just to follow-up on this: Sibelius notation program now says that "which symphony is quoted depends on the version of the software". Collect them all! --Camembert 16:28, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is patently incorrect to claim that Jean Sibelius was Finland-Swedish. 213.243.157.114 02:06, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So, is it really? What's your source? How do you define "Finland-Swedish"? My memory is that he started to use Finnish privately first as an adult, after he'd met Aino. /Tuomas 00:26, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nope, Finnish was already his school language in his home. 213.243.157.114 21:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sibelius' family was swedish speaking, however from age 8 on he attended a Finish speaking school. It is not "incorrect" to state that he was Swedish-Finnish.Stirling Newberry 22:33, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Please elaborate what means "Swedish-Finnish"? Bilingual? 213.243.157.114 03:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think it means that he is ethnically Swedish, but nationally Finnish such as someone may be ethnically Chinese but nationally American

Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place.

One of the things we should consider it what was the language Jean used himself, at his home, and with his family.

Jean Sibelius' parents already were Fennomans. Wanting to provide Finnish language as home language for their children. 213.243.157.114 03:44, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, Sibelius knew no Finnish until he was approximately 8 years old; he enrolled in a Finnish-speaking grammar school at the age of 11, and didn't master the language until he was a young adult. According to the article, he spoke Swedish at home. It's probably splitting hairs. I always considered him to be a "Finnish" composer, and still do--the same way that someone born in the United States, whatever language he/she learned first in childhood, would be an "American" composer. Antandrus 04:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/index.cfm?fuseaction=showIndividual&entity_id=3500&source_type=C quotes 8.

"Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place." This is factually inaccurate, the majority of the population spoke Swedish at the time of Sibelius' birth. Jean, and his family, were swept up in the transition to being Finnish speakers. However, Swedish was the language of the home, as shown by the The Hämeenlinna letters : the scenes from a musical life 1874-1895 - which are in Swedish. The normal school which Sibelius enrolled in at 11 was one of the first in the country which was Finnish based rather than Sweedish and Latin. Stirling Newberry 05:31, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Stirling claims: "Hämeenlinna was at that time fully Finnish-speaking place. is factually inaccurate, the majority of the population spoke Swedish at the time of Sibelius' birth."

Well, if you want to split hairs. Hämeenlinna was and is located in so-called "totally Finnish-speaking area". Only less than one percent was Swedish - a few families. They mostly were civil servants sent there by central administration. If you have a, say Moldavian, immigrant with his family in your home town, would you take that in account when writing an encyclopedic article about the language of your town? usually, that sort of minority is not taken into account. Why then here?

I agree that the kids of that Moldavian family in some cases use their ancestral language as almost only language until going to the school.

We have here, however, a family whose parents wanted to put Jean into Finnish-speaking school, despite of the alternative that there were a plentitude of Swedish-using schools in the country.

Hämeenlinna got its first Finnish-speaking school only in those days, not earlier. Truly Swedish families of Hämeenlinna were used to send their kids to Swedish-speaking schools of that day (possibly to Helsinki), or to hiring a tutor (who, of course, would have been easy to choose from Swedish-speakers), or to teach at home (by parents) which was also relatively common.

In the circumstances of Hämeenlinna of those days, all persons (possibly excluding kids under school age, mutes, hearing-impaired, hospitalized coma-cases etc) needed to use Finnish. For example, Jean's father as physician apparently used Finnish with patients. 213.243.157.114 22:40, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Antandrus: "It's probably splitting hairs. I always considered him to be a "Finnish" composer, and still do--the same way that someone born in the United States, whatever language he/she learned first in childhood, would be an "American" composer."

The hair-splitting seems to be important to some individuals here, whose IP connections show them hail from Sweden. It is apparently very important that they are able to number as many notable persons as possible among "Swedish" in Finland. Even against the historical person's own Fennoman wishes.

I have guessed that the names and the number of truly Swedish notables in Finland is so short and uninspiring that reinforcements are desperately needed by believers of Great-Scandinavian bias.

We apparently can, in accordance with to Antandrus' view, write in the article that Sibelius was Finnish composer?? or, "a composer from Finland"? 213.243.157.114 22:48, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It should be clear that Jean Sibelius should be labelled as a finnish composer as that was the nationality of his family and himself.

I'm the first to admit that I don't understand this controversy, if any--I always, always knew Sibelius as a "Finnish" composer, so I'm fine with this edit. My ancestors are Jewish and Native American and German and various other things, but if I ever get an article written about me, I'd be fine if I'm just called an "American" composer, not a hyphenated-conglomerate of these other ancestral groups. Antandrus 02:53, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The controversy has to do with historical "language battle" (kielitaistelu) in Finland from about 1860s to 1930s. During this time Finnish established itself as the primary language of a former Swedish "province" of Finland (Swedish is still an official language, too). As for Sibelius, his family on father's side seems to have been "originally" Finnish speaking, while on mother's side Swedish speaking (not "Swedish", though). By the time of Sibelius' birth the family spoke Swedish, but as fennomans they put "Janne" to a "Finnish school". Anyway, the distinction between "Finns" and "Finland-Swedes" didn't exist until about 1900, so it's pretty meanigless to try to figure out the ethnicity of young Sibelius. He himself must have regarded himself as a Finn who happens to speak Swedish as his mother tongue. At the time about 20% did. Later on, when the battle became more heated, Sibelius took a stand regarding the language/enthnicity issue. I don't remember his exact words but the idea was: couldn't care less. There seems to be certain nationalistic Swedes (very few, I believe) who don't accept this reasonable view. It's great music inspired by Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Italian, Austrian and German traditions and sentiments. Tomi Ahti 10:09, 18 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The part about the Fift Symphony and honoring the composer needs to be moved to the Sibelius notation program page. However, there's a contradiction between the pages. This one claims that "the name is explicitly intended to honor" Jean, but the other one gives a different explanation and states that the original authors of the program "can't really remember" the reason for the name. If someone knows more, please make up a way to combine the passages. Some reference to the sources of the info, if applicable, would also be great. Wipe 23:34, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Mic, we now have a separate disambiguation page. I feel, though, that the amount of content doesn't yet merit a disambig page and some of it's entries are questionable (little risk of confusion). I moved the deleted start-up melody bit to the notation program page. I assume the editors of that page know best when it comes to the reasons for the name. Wipe 20:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)