Talk:Islay/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'll review this! Looks interesting and I don't know the area. MathewTownsend (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK - I look forward to your comments. Hope you enjoy the article - it's a wonderful island. Ben Mac Dui 11:00, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

review

lede

"are agriculture, malt whisky distilling, and tourism" - distilling isn't a noun.

I can't fault the logic, but surely they are all "activities". I have tweaked the wording as on reflection "industries are agriculture" doesn't sit well. I may be missing some important convention here, but it looks OK to me now.

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alright. I was thinking grammatically but "distillation of alcohol drinks", "alcohol distillation" etc. may not be what you want. Is that what you meant by "distilling" or does it have another meaning?

Added a link.

"the early historic period" - its linked to Scotland in the Early Middle Ages - the piping doesn't seem to have a particular meaning

The phrase is certainly used, often as a synonym for the "Dark Ages" (see e.g. Kingdom of Strathclyde), but it is slightly tricky in this context as there is some scholarly dispute over the timing of the Gaelic-speaking occupation of Islay. I changed the piped link to Early Middle Ages and tweaked the wording.

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ok, I realize the trickiness

are these periods, such as "the early historic period" and "medieval" (piped to the Middle Ages), widely recognized as the names of periods for this area?

"medieval" is specifically used by the quoted source. It is a very broad term, but the period Caldwell is referring to straddles the "High" and "Late" periods and I am not aware of a single link that would specify this.

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ok, I realize the difficulty

Re-tweaked the lede - I don't think Clan Donald traditionalists would thank-you for describing them as "Norse-Gaels" - even if this is a reasonable way to describe their origins. See Talk:Somerled for copious discussion. Ben Mac Dui 08:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I got that from the Clan Donald link. What do I know? Floundering around here

"Islay is home to many bird species and is a popular destination throughout the year with birdwatchers, especially to see the wintering populations of Greenland White-fronted and Barnacle Goose" - could this be worded better? clumpsy.

Tweaked

be careful about "peacock" wording

A peacock would certainly be a rarity on Islay! The flocks of Barnacle Geese are described as "famous" and the island is "rightly well known for bird watching" so I don't think "popular" is going too far. Ben Mac Dui 12:14, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

reply

the word "popular" is so banal but it's ok.

Geography

This section is very choppy with many short paragraphs.

I think it needs an introduction describing the over all geography, the many geographical features, and then go into details.

Fair comment - I tend to look at the map and think its obvious. I have added an overview description and a little more detail.

More description is needed.

for example to say just "The south-western end of Islay is a largely rocky region called The Oa." is not descriptive enough. For example, what kind of rocks are them, what are their characteristics. What is an overall description of the landscape in The Oa?
ditto for other areas mentioned.

The Oa's geology is now mentioned and hopefully there is sufficient on the other areas in the geology and geography sections taken together. Let me know if not. The palce's other main claim to fame was the nesting Chough's, but according to the local birding site that s no longer the case. The American monument is also mentioned lower down.

Geology and geomorphology

Again, there needs to be an overall introduction to the basic geology that formed the area, then go into details.

Surly such an interesting area must have a rich geological history.

Indeed - and I have added an overview, although I need to do some more checking on the details of this. Ben Mac Dui 17:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC) Still under research. 08:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now attempted. A map would be explain a lot, but none exists at present on Commons. Ben Mac Dui 10:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Climate

Perhaps more description and specifics. What is the wind speed of the "winter gales". Does the climate vary depending on the area. From the map, there appears to be a large geographical variation.

The met office don't provide much in the way of detail for wind speeds, but I have added an average and an anecdotal gust figure and a sentence about sunshine hours. The climate does not vary over such a small area, although the average rainfall and wind speed increases with elevation of course. Ben Mac Dui 13:34, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How does the organization of this article compare with that of Outer Hebrides, in your opinion?

The situation is a little different in the Outer Hebrides as they are a local authority area, have a very strong Gaelic culture and the transport links are more complex, which features largely account for the differences. Islay is more comparable to large single island GAs like Arran and Skye, which have similar article structures. See also WP:GOODISLE. However, there are often idiosyncracies - e.g. Flannan Isles and its mystery, or Rùm where ecology is a major focus of the modern island. Ben Mac Dui 11:32, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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ok, that link is helpful. I did look around the Scotland Project but didn't see that particular page.
And I do believe it's a wonderful island. I wish I lived there! MathewTownsend (talk) 13:11, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So do I - in the spring and summer! Ben Mac Dui 17:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(will continue)

more comments

some citations I don't understand e.g. Woolf, Alex (2012) Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin. Academia.edu.

An odd one - a published "unpublished" paper. There is a weblink now in place.

Jennings, Andrew and Kruse, Arne "One Coast-Three Peoples: Names and Ethnicity in the Scottish West during the Early Viking period" in Woolf, Alex (ed.) (2007) Scandinavian Scotland – Twenty Years After. St Andrews. St Andrews University Press. ISBN 978-0-9512573-7-1 - this was actually published in 2009, according to the isbn.

Goodness and well spotted. It is the proceedings of a 2007 conference. Fixed (here and elsewhere - missed at an FA review too).

not all of the citations are under the general references. it's very hard to figure out, especially as the citations aren't linked to their full references below.

The system should be - if it is a website, stand alone academic paper or pamphlet, it is quoted in full as a footnote. If it is from a book the inline ref gives the author and page number with the book appearing in the general refs. There are oddities where the book is edited but contains contributions by various authors, in which case the author, chapter name and page number is in-line plus the editor and publication date e.g. Omand (2006), Woolf (2009). I'll go through them again tonite.

Notable people

not all of them have citations
" He currently represents Orkney and Shetland in Westminster." - as of?

For some reason I didn't think this was necessary as if they have an article, it should be referenced, but I will fix asap. (Perhaps this was books being self-referenced - I have given up watching MOS pages). Ben Mac Dui 09:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I looked on some of the pages and the place of birth wasn't mentioned or wasn't cited. MathewTownsend (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Under construction and mostly~~ complete ~~- I need to check Crawfurd and fix the misbehaving Stewart ref.~~ Ben Mac Dui 18:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gaelic - As you can see this has just been added. I have asked the editor for page numbers for Grannd - further tweaks will also be necessary. Ben Mac Dui 18:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Citation 146 is a bit of shortcut - it can be split into four if you prefer.

Otherwise the article seems very well written and interesting. But I can't get by the citation problems. Could you explain how I can figure them out? It's effort to search from the footnote to the reference section.

MathewTownsend (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

comment

I asked Br'er Rabbit about the citation formatting issue and he said he could fathom it, so I won't be fussed. It's really quite a nice article. MathewTownsend (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!. Ben Mac Dui 10:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comment

I'm trying to understand this article, and apologize for my difficulty and the fact that so many words are unfamiliar to me. Since I can't access the sources, I'm using the links to try to make the article more accessible to people like me that are not well acquainted with Islay. Hope I'm not mucking things up. Suggestions so far:

the lede doesn't seem to follow WP:LEAD

Could you be a bit more specific?

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From WP:LEAD: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."

I will look at this again of course.

"The fractal coast'" - what is a fractal coast? is this the same as the "shattered coastline" mentioned later?

The idea is similar. I have linked to fractal, which in this context simply means an irregular geometric figure.

hummm. Linking to fractal ("A fractal is a mathematical set that has a fractal dimension that usually exceeds its topological dimension and may fall between the integers.") might not be all that helpful to the reader. Can't common words be used to describe a coastline rather than a mathematical term?

would it be clearer to use Indigenous peoples directly, rather than the pipe "autochthonous"?

Fair enough - done.

"the unknown location of Ard-Corann" - could you clarify - if it's unknown, why does it have a name?

It was mentioned in a document - probably the Senchus although it is not clear from the text. I have made it it "unidentified".

the quote "there is no evidence from the onomasticon that the inhabitants of these settlements ever existed" contains an inline link - not allowed to have links in the body of the article I don't think - should be made into a footnote.

I have used a fixed I have seen at FAC.

"but the toponymy suggests it had a lowly status, possibly indicating an enslaved population." - why not pipe toponymy to something like the study of place names?

I understand what you are aiming to do, and I have changed it, but it seems to me this a word that is regularly used in this kind of context.

The link you have used may convey the meaning reasonably well, but if you go to Highland Clearances (not a very good article I'm afraid) you will see that many of the sources use the name "Highland Clearances" and that this is the common way of referring to this grim period of history. Ben Mac Dui 19:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

MathewTownsend (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

reply

"Clearences" may be a common word to you, but it isn't to me. Are you writing this article for the general reader? Sorry that I don't know much about the history you're writing about. I spent considerable time yesterday (I'm talking hours) trying to figure out beginning of the article and the issue regarding "Clearances", a word that has no meaning to me. I read the article Highland Clearances a couple of times. If you aren't willing to make this article accessible to a well educated American, me, then I can't review it. I have spent way more time in this article than any review in recent memory - and I am just now reaching the "History" section. I'm unwilling to continue. It's too hard to understand. The reader shouldn't have to click on each link and try to figure out what relates to this article. Too many links, too much obscure information not accessible to the general reader.

Well I am sorry about that and I will continue to review the article for clarity, but this specific is a puzzling to me as it is to you. I can list more than half a dozen GAs/FLs that contain the phrase "clearances" or "Highland Clearances".

It's listed in a "Scotland topics" template, but I'm not from Scotland, and even though I've been there, I know little about it's history. I don't know enough to review this article.

I suggest that you request someone familiar with your terminology and the specific history you're writing about. MathewTownsend (talk) 23:06, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy to follow up in whatever way may be needed, but I am not sure where we stand. Are you requesting a second opinion? Ben Mac Dui 12:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What would we be asking a second opinion over? MathewTownsend (talk) 17:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't sure if you were planning to continue with the review. As I see that you are, I assume you are asking me to find someone from say Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland to assist. I can certainly do so, although active members seem to be fewer than in their heyday.

Who are "Óengus: Lugaid, Connal and Galán"?

I added a note to explain that Óengus is the eponymous founder of the Cenél nÓengusa. His descendents don't seem to have articles although they may be hiding under other names.

"Gaelic continued to exist as a spoken language in the southern Hebrides throughout the Norse period," - when did it start being a spoken language there?

The exact dates are unknown - sometime between the arrival of Gaelic in Scotland in the 6th/7th century and the extinction of the non-Gaelic languages around 900AD. But even scholar shy away from giving precise dates for the appearance of Gaelic in specific places. Akerbeltz (talk) 00:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"one of the Norse-Gael rulers of this thalassocracy who had a connection with Islay" - which is "this thalassocracy"?

Added "Hebridean" in attempt to clarify that this is the Kingdom of the Isles.

"the son of Harald the Black of Ysland, variously interpreted as Islay, Ireland or Iceland" - you don't mean that Harold the Black was variously interpreted as Islay, Ireland or Iceland, do you? Rather, where he was from, "Ysland", was variously interpreted so. Right?

Correct. Added a clarifier. Ben Mac Dui 11:39, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

comment

"Media and the arts" seems more like "Trivia" or "Popular culture". Nothing about the arts. Are there no "arts" e.g. pottery found in ancient ruins and such. Beautiful materials woven locally? Local artists?

I believe many people would consider song-writing and feature film-making to be arts. Unfortunately there is nothing that I can think of from Islay's history to compare with the Fairy Flag or the Lewis chessmen and while there are certainly numerous present day arts and crafts outlets I doubt that any would either be considered notable in their own right or a legitimate part of an enduring local tradition, but I will take a look and see if a more general statement about this can be corroborated. The statement about Westering Home could probably be strengthened if I can find an RS. Ben Mac Dui 08:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We could say something like "Made in Islay is a thriving arts and crafts association that represents and markets local handmade goods".<ref>http://www.madeonislay.co.uk/</ref>

Under "Geology and geomorphology" what does "these two zones" refer to?

Clarified. Ben Mac Dui 08:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"When the estate owners realised they could make more money from sheep farming than from the indigenous small farmers, Clearances became commonplace." "Clearances" as used here seems like "clearing the land" e.g. cutting down trees etc. to make way for pastures. But really it means "the expulsion of the Gael". Is "Clearances" a general term in the English language for expelling Gael? Or is it a Scottish term only? I'm getting the picture (finally) that British land owners forcibly removed the Gaelic people. I see many "evictees" went to "Canada, the United States and elsewhere". From the Clearances article:

There was mass forced emigration to the sea coast, the Scottish Lowlands, and the North American colonies. The clearances were particularly notorious as a result of the late timing, the lack of legal protection for year-by-year tenants under Scots law, the abruptness of the change from the traditional clan system, and the brutality of many evictions.

So the British kicked the Gaelic people out? And this was done by taking away their land? Or were they "removed" forcibly, like put on boats etc. and shipped off? This episode seems to be minimized in the article. Although the way the Irish were treated by the British is well known, in America at least (perhaps because there are so many Irish in the US), few know about the British kicking the Gaelic people out. I hope I'm not talking about something here that's not supposed to be mentioned. But it explains to me why Scotland may want independence. Now I am reading the Highland Clearances again, and read Enclosure - I know about the open land system etc. from going to school in the UK as a kid, so now I'm understanding what was happening. But never heard of the "Clearances". How really terrible. MathewTownsend (talk) 13:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In a Scottish Context, they're just always referred to as the "Clearances". No harm in explaining the term a bit further but since that's the accepted term, we should stick to it. Reminds me, in a way, of Manifest Destiny which doesn't really mean anything to the totally uninitiated either :) Akerbeltz (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Akerbeltz is right in that "Clearances" is the terminology consistently used by sources. There are however two complications. First of all, it would be quite possible expand at length on the topic both in general terms and in respect of Islay, although from a meta point of view given that Clearances affected every inhabited Hebridean island (and many that are now uninhabited) and pretty much every one of the several hundred parishes in the Highlands it would be odd if we repeated some explanation of this in every such article. We don't explain the Neolithic or the Industrial Revolution every time they are mentioned. Secondly, the topic is not so much complex (although the terminology can be confusing - the displaced Gaels were just as much "British" citizens as their Anglo-Saxon oppressors, but they were often referred to as Erse or "Irish" because they spoke Gaelic) as contentious. If the wording is strengthened to emphasis the venality of the land-owning classes you can be guaranteed that their modern day apologists will turn up and start muttering about the economic inevitability of the event and how it was not in any way genocide or ethnic cleansing etc. For this reason I have probably toned the wording down. This is however not a reason to avoid stating the facts more clearly and I'll have another look at it. Scottish history as such was generally not taught in Scottish schools until very recently so you are not alone. Ben Mac Dui 08:10, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added an additional sentence. Ben Mac Dui 08:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ok. The article is good enough though I disagree with some of your decisions.

Review: 1. Well written?: Pass; 2. Factually accurate?: Pass; 3. Broad in coverage?: Pass; 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass; 5. Article stability?: Pass; 6. Images?: Pass

Congratulations! MathewTownsend (talk) 17:11, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the review and my apologies it was so time consuming. Ben Mac Dui 12:05, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]