Talk:Indonesian language/Archive 1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Introduction has lifted sentences from an academic paper word for word

"A Two-Level Morphological Analyser for the Indonesian Language" Pisceldo et al. Intro should cite this or be rewritten — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.168.199 (talk) 18:02, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to be. Few of the non-trivial words in our intro are even found in that paper. — kwami (talk) 20:30, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

"Indonesian language" changed from "Malay language" because to promote "UNITY"

Hi,

It is said that Indonesian language called as Indonesian language because it has other loan words from Javanese, Arabic, and even Sanskrit.

So, please think again. Even English language has many loan words from Latin, Sanskrit, French, and etc. but that did not make English as a new language in United States of America to be called as American language.

Do you notice that in USA it did not change to American language but still remains as English? So, the situation here is, Indonesian Government chosen Malay Riau as her official language of Indonesia by changing the "Malay"(Bahasa Melayu) to "Indonesian"(Bahasa Indonesia). It is because the past Government would like to promote the "UNITY" of its people in the new established country.

It is the same with Malay language in Malaysia. The Government of Malaysia had several times change the Malay language to Malaysian language just because to promote the "UNITY" and it also because to remove the assumption by non-Malay that Malay language is only for Malay. Nowadays, Malay language is known again as Malaysian language.

In conclusion, borrowing foreign languages does not make Korean, Japanese, and all languages in the world as a new language. It's only a government political decision to raise the "UNITY" of the people as well as to build a "NATIONALISM" and "PATRIOTISM" by changing the original language name. In this case, it is Malay became Indonesian just because a political decision.

Master of Books (talk) 01:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what your point is here. Are you saying that we shouldn’t call the language Indonesian? That’s your own original research. Indonesian is a distinct language to Malaysian. The two are significantly more different than say American and British English. But even that’s irrelevant. Most importantly, “Indonesian” is not only the official nationally and internationally name for the language, it is the most commonly used name and thus qualifies under WP:NAME. But, it would be a good suggestion to split the Malay Language article into a second one on Malaysian language. --Merbabu (talk) 02:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course the reasons for choosing the name "bahasa Indonesia" were political. After all, the Indonesian Youth Pledge, where the name was officially announced, was a political event. It doesn't change the fact that Malaysian and Indonesian language are now different languages, albeit highly mutually intelligible ones. Gombang (talk) 06:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Indonesian - Javanese

Is this a diferent language? There are several pages mention languages in Indonesia, I find them very confusing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnologue_list_of_most_spoken_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.182.162.124 (talk) 13:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It's very different. Many Indonesian words are derived from Javanese words, but language-wise, they're 2 very different languages.--Hamster X (talk) 08:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Hamster. Javanese (Bahasa Jawa) and Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) are two very different languages. A lot of my relatives who grew up in Surabaya, including my mother, speak Bahasa Jawa, but I can only understand a few words and sentences (my mother tongue is Indonesian). Marxolang (talk) 07:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

it has come into being

officially it came into being in 1945

How exactly does a language officially come into being? Could there be more information on how the language was developed here? Thanks. --Chuck Smith

There are number of people from organization like "Young Java", "young Celebes", "Bond Sumatra", and so on who take oath in 1928 that they will use Indonesian (Malay?) Language from then. Dutch official also use this language as lingua franca to communicate with natives, as native officer not allowed to talk in Dutch Language with Dutch Officer (In some part of Dutch East Indies, but I just sure about that in Java). So its has a long history before became official.Aditthegrat 17:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup.. Read James T. Collin's Malay, World Language: a short history if you want to know more. in 20s, the form of Indonesian Language and Malay Language was same. Then, due to the area become two separated countries, both of language start to differ. However, most of Indonesian I met can understand Malaysian Malay while I heard Malaysian hardly understand Indonesian (needed to checked). Kunderemp 19:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I believe the oath you are referring to is the 'Sumpah Pemuda', which has its own article in Wikipedia so you can fish through to find it. Being Indonesian, I have had a hard time understanding spoken Malaysian Malay mainly because of its accent and pronounciation (I have managed to understand 95% of the vocab though). Conversely, Malaysians are probably in a greater disadvantage because Indonesia has the 'prokem' or slang, which is a very.. complex language that throw foreigners off guard.

(I've heard Malaysian slang but definitely not as deviant as prokem:) e-no 21:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Chuck Smith on this one. The first sentence/paragraph is a combination of poor wording and poor structure. There is no world authority capable of 'offically' definingclaring a language, and there was certainly no recognized Indonesian language authority in 1945, when nobody else recognized the country. Citing the Youth Pledge is irrelevant to the article, never mind putting it in the first sentence. I've changed it to focus on the language, not Indonesian history. The rest of the summary could still be improved -- this is a language entry after all.JakartaDean (talk) 08:24, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

so sayeth the article

The article says:

There are six pure vowel sounds: a (similar to the sound in bus), e (as in get), i (shorter than in eat), o (shorter than in dawn), u (as in put), and a neutral vowel like the second vowel of water which is also spelled e; and three diphthongs (ai, au, oi). The consonantic phonemes are rendered by the letters p, b, t, d, k, g, c (pronounced like the ch in cheese), j, h, ng (which also occurs initially), ny (as in canyon), m, n, s (unvoiced, as in sun or cats), w, l, r (trilled or flapped) and y. There are five more consonants that only appear in loanwords: f, v, sy (pronounced sh), z and kh (as in loch).

Would it be accurate to abstract the following phonological tables from the above (using SAMPA notation)?

Consonants

		Bilabial	Dental	Palatal	Velar	Glottal
Stops	Voiceless	p	t		k
	Voiced	b	d		g
Affricates	Voiceless			tS
	Voiced			dZ
Fricatives			s			h
Nasals		m	n	J	N
Lateral			l
Rhotic			r
Semivowels		w		y

Vowels

	Front	Central	Back
High	i		u
Mid	e	@	o
Low		a

Please advise, as if the above is correct, I'd like to add it to the article after the description of the orthography. Thanks!

-- pgdudda 03:43 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)

I think the postalveolar affricate is actually palatal stops (which makes c instead of tS, and J/ instead of dZ) unless at the end of words, but then, no Indonesian words I know end with either "c" or "j". Also, most dialect of Indonesian seems to use trilled /r/ unable to do a trilled /r/ is considered a mild speech defect.

-- Pyurio 04:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the above quoted article is slightly incorrect, and I do agree with Pyurio's points about c and j, although I don't think "palatal stop" is the correct term. I intended to change the table, but I can't seem to find any 3rd party source, hence violating "verifiable" policy. Personally though, I'm sure 4 sounds listed in the table do not occur in Indonesian, instead, they have 4 sounds that are similar, yet each have its own IPA symbol, they are:

Grapheme	Current IPA	Correct IPA
c	t̠ʃ	t̠ɕ
j	d̠ʒ	d̠ʑ
sy	ʃ	ɕ
f	f	ɸ

These 4 sounds do not seem to occur in (West) European languages, but seems to be typical for (East) Asian languages.

Regenlied (talk) 13:05, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

when

When Bahasa Indonesia was made from Malay, was there any attempt made to reduce the levels of social coding, politeness levels, and respectful/deferential/colloquial/abrupt forms that were present in the language originally? -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:30, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I believe there was no such attempt. But in some areas, using their local language is rude while using Indonesian is preferable in formal situation. For example, in where I live, Jakarta, it is rude using Betawi Language to parents (Betawi = Jakarta People -> from Batavia). Then, "Gue mau makan" ( 'Gue' from Betawi Language) is a impolite sentence of "Saya mau makan" (means "I want to eat"). Kunderemp 20:14, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

wikipedia policy

It seems that Wikipedia policy is to [English] words. Bahasa Indonesia is the is the Indonesian name of the language. In English we use "Indonesian". The ISO 639 English name for the language is "Indonesian". Therefore this article should be moved to Indonesian language. --Nohat 17:16, 2004 Feb 25 (UTC)

Indonesian is not a language, its a dialect of Malay. Am I Wrong? -Pedro 13:22, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's debatable. But it is usually considered to be a separate language because it has a separate written standard, it has government-supported language planners supporting its use, and it is the national language of Indonesia (not Malay). Nohat 14:37, 2004 May 22 (UTC)

Althought it's debatable. Althought it was historically correct. But I don't think there will be a Malay or Indonesian who will consider modern Indonesian language as only a purely dialect of Malay. Kunderemp 20:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

But linguistically it is a variant of Malay, just as Brazilian Portuguese is a mere variant of Portuguese for example. Meursault2004 12:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Indonesian is a language of itself even if it is a dialect of Malay. There are hundreds of dialects in Papua New Guinea but each one is considered a different language. Αδελφος (talk) 21:55, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

PURI Bahasa

I am interested in learning bahasa Indonesia. I have a friend who recommend me to study in a school in Yogyakarta, called PURI Bahasa. He really likes the school, but I want to get more information about Indonesian language schools in Indonesia, particularly in Yogyakarta.

Does anyone have information about PURI bahasa? Is this really good, or is there any other you know?

Salam

Ken

Ken - the url for Puri Bahasa is http://www.puri.co.id/. A friend of mine studied there and spoke very highly of it. It is probably the best known Indonesian language school in the country.--Kutu 08:32, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The table says there are ~150 million speakers... the article says ~200 million. Someone who knows should pick the right one! --anon

Those extra people must be somewhere... did you check behind the sofa? -- 66.32.73.115 21:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Logically, it should be more than 200million =/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster X (talk • contribs) 12:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Mistake

Why does the article state that Indonesian is ranked 56th in the world, behind Malay which is ranked 54th? According to the Indonesian language article, 140 million people speak Indonesian. According to the Malay language article, only 7-18 million people speak Malay.

Given that Bahasa Indonesia (which should be the title of the page - this is how it is known in English - there are 570,000 English language hits for Bahasa Indonesia) is essentially a dialect of Malay, one would assume that the Malay number was arrived at by adding the number of Bahasa Indonesia speakers to the number of standard Malay speakers. john k 16:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it is almost a political argument really. To say that Indonesian is a dialect of Malay is clearly historically correct, but by weight of numbers it is clearly not an accurate representation of reality.

To say that bahasa Indonesia is a dialect of Malay is wrong. Although Bahasa Indonesia historically has the same root with Bahasa Melayu (Malay in Malaysia and Singapore), bahasa Indonesia has also been influenced by Javanese, Sanscrit, Arabic, Chinese peranakan, Dutch and English. It is different not only in vocabulary (speaking and writing), but also has minor grammar difference, for example a difference in prefix and suffix. Jahjalim (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I have no information to dispute the 7% native speakers, but I would be surprised if the 45% fluent is accurate. It may have changed recently, but when I lived there, all education from Grade 3 up was in Indonesian. I guess many rural children don't go past primary education, but still I would be surprised if the number of fluent speakers is only 45%. Of course I only ever lived in cities, so I have no personal experience of the situation in the villages. --Peacenik 03:38, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I believe there is no such thing as "native speaker of Indonesia". As Peacenik said, we start to speak Indonesian since we can speak. The second thing is, most of population in Indonesia is in Java (more than 50%) and all of Javanese (except the Bedouin) speak Indonesian as their first language. Well.. actually it is hard to say whether Javanese or Indonesian as their first language (lot of Javanese, especially the young generation, speaks Indonesian more fluently than Javanese [althought their Indonesian have Javanese accent]).

Thirdly, I met some people from Papua and Borneo and they speaks Indonesian better than Javanese . Some people explained to me, if Papuan can't speak Indonesia, they won't be able to communicate with people outside their tribes. FYI, there are lot of tribes (such as Dani, Asmat, etc) and languages in Papua and they are isolated from each other. The only way to communicate with other (even Papuan) tribes is using Indonesian Language.

Fourthly, even you still consider all of us, Indonesian, are using Indonesian as our second language, then there won't be any native, not even Riau (They speak Malay, not Indonesian). So, can I erase the "native" stuff? Kunderemp 19:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that all of Javanese speak Indonesian as their first language. I met one 6 years old child which cannot speak Indonesian, he just spoke Javanese. He would learn Indonesian in school. That case is still true now although the number of people whose Javanese is their only first language is decreasing due to the TV influences. Actually Javanese is still widely used in daily conversation and speaking Javanese is the sign of intimacy between friends. Javanese youngsters tends to speak Indonesian to stranger, then after they feel comfortable, they speak Javanese. For your information, although I'm not from Javanese tribe, my first languages are both Indonesian and Javanese. I can speak both of them when I was less than 5 years old. I think most of Indonesian now can speak Indonesian with a varying degree. I'm not sure about the percentage, but there are still Indonesian that cannot speak Indonesian at all or just understand Indonesian but cannot speak it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracana09 (talk • contribs) 04:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be very rare nowadays to find an Indonesian unable to speak the Indonesian national language. Only those in the secluded rural areas may not know, even then it is likely they do, since it is the only national language. It is true that Javanese is still widely spoken among people, but I'm sure most of these people can speak Indonesian too. Regarding the 'native language' bit, you can't say Indonesian is a second language for them, seeing both languages were used alongside since they were young. Second language would be something like if a foreigner(eg. Diplomat, expat) stays in Indonesia for some time and decides to learn the language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster X (talk • contribs) 12:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Those who said that there are no native speakers of bahasa Indonesia are far from reality. Bahasa Indonesia is the official language for school since Primary 1 and even from Kindergarten and Playgroup. All Indonesian television also communicate in bahasa Indonesia. So, there are abundance of native speakers whether in cities or villages. Even children from 2 or 3 years old has spoken bahasa Indonesia. Some youngsters even can only speak bahasa Indonesia (sometimes with local intonation and a bit of local dialect vocabulary). To me, they are native speakers. Jahjalim (talk) 03:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused; the only 45% number I see is saying that 45% of people in Malaysia speak Malay natively; which doesn't seem too relevant here, but no big deal. What am I missing? Anyway, the Indonesian census has questions about language use, which might help clear things up, if someone is interested. However last I checked little of the census results were online - you might need to find the paper volumes (in a university library) to get the good stuff.

On the naming of the article: I'd suggest we keep it at Indonesian language, not "Bahasa Indonesia". The English term - Indonesian language - is very widely used. Ethnologue calls it "Indonesian", and a majority of the English-language sources it cites do as well. The current name is also in keeping with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), which suggests that we should use English names for things, when reasonable. It would also fit with every other language article I'm aware of. I think the article handles it well; noting the name "Bahasa Indonesia", and that it is sometimes used in English as well. - Cdc 05:59, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The ranking is very suspect. Note that the ranking page List of languages by number of native speakers has been nominated as inaccurate. Looks like a difficult question. Can someone find a more accurate & reliable estimate of the number of native speakers? Singkong2005 11:25, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

10,000 Dutch loanwords

How can it be true that 10,000 loan words from Dutch are in use today in Indonesian? Is there a source for this comment, because the number will have to be changed. There's an Indonesia expert at The Ohio State University who laughed at this article and basically said the Wikipedia is terrible (I was very sad). Does anybody have something to add to this? NeonGeniuses 01:51, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Out of all the Indonesian I have learned, I have never come across a dutch, or dutch related word. I don't know a great deal of indonesian but the only word I have seen that is borrowed from another language is "Allah" which is indonesian for God and is borrowed from Arabic. Αδελφος (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about my last comment. I wasn't thinking correctly. I have seen dutch loan words in Indonesian but I don't think there are 10,000.   
Αδελφος (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Notes

Firstly, the so-called OSU "expert" is apparently not much of one. Dutch words are entrenched all throughout Bahasa Indonesia, but they are not clearly recognizable because they are often a second incantation of borrowed words going further back to bahasa Jawa. However, because Bahasa Indonesia is today such a slang-oriented language, I suppose I would agree with the conclusion most of those words are not in use today.

Secondly, what is more laughable is the fact that this page says there are 17-30 million native speakers of Bahasa Indonesia. The majority of Javanese and Madurese (combined population is about 130 million) under the age of 30 are not fully fluent in bahasa Jawa or bahasa Madura. Their native tongue is Bahasa Indonesia, not to mention millions of other urbanites on Sumatra and Kalimantan who are native speakers of Bahasa Indonesia. The real number is probably closer to 50 million.

In light of these facts, it is unsurprising the the number of 140 million speakers of Bahasa Indonesia is also incorrect. The latest estimate says that Indonesia's population is 240 million. I know that the source often being used for these pages is Ethnologue, but I know of many instances of Ethnologue underestimating and overestimating the number of speakers of particular Papuan languages by at least 50%. In case some of you were under a bizarre impression by reading this page, Bahasa Indonesia is basically a trade language and generally takes about three months to learn. That is why about 80% of Indonesians are literate in the language, and there are about 190 million speakers of Bahasa Indonesia in Indonesia.

(Yamauchi)

RE DUTCH WORDS: I would add that many of the English-sounding words like telepon, nasional and internasional presumably came from Dutch rather than from English.

RE NUMBER OF NATIVE SPEAKERS: However I disagree with you regarding the fluency of young Javanese and Madurese speakers - "The majority of Javanese and Madurese... under the age of 30 are not fully fluent in bahasa Jawa or bahasa Madura." It depends what you mean. For all the Javanese I met in Surabaya, their most comfortable language is Javanese, and this is the language they use on a daily basis with friends and family, and often in informal street situations as well. In Surabaya, even Chinese people may speak Javanese at home. I think Madurese is also often used in Surabaya, when Madurese people recognise each other as Madurese (by clothing, physical appearance and/or occupation). (Most people in Surabaya don't seem to know the higher "kromo" levels of Javanese, but I don't know whether this is a generational change or just a local phenomenon. In Yogyakarta, it seems everyone, including the becak drivers, is able and eager to teach the more refined forms of Javanese.)

However, most of their education has been in Indonesian. Their Javanese or Madurese is more fluent in most situations. Their Indonesian is more "educated", but while usually fluent enough, it feels also more stiff and formal than speaking their regional language.

This is probably even more true outside the cities. However Jakarta is a special case, in having such a mix of ethnic groups. Regional languages seem to not be used so much, and those raised in Jakarta are not fluent in them. Instead they speak Indonesian and Jakarta slang.

I can't comment on other areas, though the article on Padang says "It has a population of roughly 800,000 people, mostly speakers of the Minangkabau language".

Re non-speakers: You say that "Indonesia's population is 240 million" and "about 80% of Indonesians are literate in the language, and there are about 190 million speakers of Bahasa Indonesia in Indonesia." You mean there are 50 million Indonesians who don't speak Indonesian? Are there large populations in the outer islands that don't speak Indonesian? In two years, mainly in Surabaya and with some travel elsewhere (incl Sulawesi and Madura), I only met one person who didn't speak Indonesian - and he was an old man in Madura who went to school before independence. I would have guessed the proportion of speakers would be much higher, but there may be some information I'm missing.

Singkong 3 July 2005 11:13 (UTC)

Good points. You are probably correct on the Javanese/Madurese case. I think I simply took isolated cases and applied them over a wide area. Now that it's brought up, I remember meeting Madurese in Surabaya who spoke Javanese as their first language (they didn't know Madurese). I've been to Surabaya three times, but I have a bit of selective memory.

As for the number of Indonesian speakers, you are right too. I was using CIA numbers, but I was simply trying to point out that the page's number of "140 million" is very underprojected. I found an official Indonesian government source (Chamber of Commerce) that states 195 million Indonesians speak Indonesian. That number was published in 1997. With the increase in population, it must be around 210 million now. As to where the non-speakers are, I have no clue. I've only met one man in Indonesia who couldn't speak Indonesian (Javanese driver on the side of the road).

24.124.61.165 02:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't matter though..

I speak Javanese (Kromo mix Ngoko) to my parents and even sometimes I deliberately use Javanese to annoy my girlfriend (a Javanese who can't speak Javanese). The question, if the Javanese cannot be considered as native speaker of Indonesian Language then I belive nobody can be considered as native speaker, not even Malay (which most of native know they are different although historically they were same).

Can I just erase 'native' stuff? Kunderemp 19:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

One area where most people do not seem to speak Indonesian is the Badui tribal area, only about 150km from Jakarta, where they speak a dialect of Sundanese. They are allowed not to go to government schools so the kids miss out on learning Indonesian, for better or worse. My guide there, a village headman, spoke basic B.I. but others did not seem to. However this covers only a few thousand people at most. I have not met people elsewhere who cannot speak B.I. though I suppose there must be some in remote areas and especially older people in Irian/Papua. Rkidley 01:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I encounter in one place in Padang (it's administratively under Padang city, not regency) recently, where the primary school teachers teach the student in Minang language, because if they teach in Indonesian, the students will not understand. Then the teacher will slowly teach them Indonesian. The teacher will teach only in Indonesian later in secondary school. So for those who just study until primary school, their Indonesian will be poor. I believe such thing is also happen in many parts of Indonesia. Although Minang language is closely related to Indonesian, but Indonesian speaker will not fully understand what they are talking about. I think in the place where the lingua franca is not Indonesian, but one of dialect of Malay, for example Manado Malay or Banjarese or another language, many people fluent in that dialect/language, but not always fluent in Indonesian. Many of them might understand Indonesian, but not always fluent in speaking, because they just hear Indonesian in TV or radio, but never use it among themselves.

I didn't believe that those under 30 are not fluent in Javanese. I myself until 6 to 10 years ago still encounter youngsters in Java who looks struggle speaking in Indonesian. That was not I encounter in rural area, but in urban area! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracana09 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

To return to the initial question: Does anyone have a proper source for the statement that the indonesian language contains around 10,000 loan words from dutch? Currently it's referring to "This is a research led by Prof. Dr. J.W. de Vries of the University of Leiden in the Netherlands", which isn't exactly proper sourcing. -- MiG (talk) 14:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I have compiled a word list from the newest list from Leiden, Loan-words in Indonesian and Malay by Russell Jones (general editor), published in 2007. This list is the official successor of the source from 1983. It is a register of twenty thousand loan-words in Indonesian and Malay, deriving from Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian, Hindi, Tamil, Chinese, Portuguese, Dutch, English and Japanese. I am willing to include it into the wiki (and it will be *big* but topnotch). But before I proceed, I want to make sure that it will be accepted by the community of wikipedia. For one thing, the recently published list is one big word soup bowl that is sorted according to indonesian lemma. I have split up the list into various lists: loan words from Hindi, Sanskrit etc. These separate lists are discussed in the quoted book, they have been the editor's working material but they were never published... Wiki-publication of the separate lists would actually improve (on) the book. Avdr2 (talk) 15:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

RE: RE DUTCH WORDS. I don't know what language nasional (national) come from, but I do know that telepon (telephone) is a Greek, not Dutch, word. Αδελφος (talk) 15:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

About Dutch word telfon - If you wanna get technical the word polisi (police) is also Greek. We(Dutch, English, Indonesian, etc) borrowed from them via Latin. When you're talking about loan-word you refer to the loaner where you borrow the word from. It matters not whether your loaner actually borrows from somebody else though it would be nice to have it pointed out. Then again there's always search function. I mean you're on Wikipedia after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.62.166 (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Announcing Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board

After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:35 (UTC)

The influence of regional languages (esp Javanese)

The article mentions Sanskrit as an influence on Indonesian, via Old Javanese. Is it only the Sanskrit elements that have entered Indonesian? I know plenty of Sanskrit is in Indonesian (surya, putri/putra, maha, gajah...) but what about Javanese words that aren't from Sanskrit, haven't quite a few of them entered as well? (This is an impression, but I've been away for 5 years and can't think of examples). I had assumed ngawur was a Javanese word, and it is certainly used in Javanese conversation in Surabaya, but Echols and Shadily's dictionary lists it as Indonesian, with no (Jv) next to it.

In this sentence: "However it does differ from the Malaysian form in some ways, with differences in pronunciation and also in vocabulary, due in large part to the many Dutch words in the Indonesian vocabulary." I think it would be correct to change "Dutch" to "Dutch and Old Javanese". Or perhaps "Dutch and Sanskrit", but I prefer "Old Javanese". I'll leave it to someone who knows this stuff.

kaca is given as an example of a Hindi word - is it from Hindi or Sanskrit? No examples are given for Sanskrit words.

I don't know the subject well enough to want to fix these myself.

Have other regional languages had much of an influence? I ask because the Minangkabau article seems to suggest that merantau is a Minang word - though whether Minang is the origin for the Indonesian word is not clear.

Singkong 6 July 2005 12:18 (UTC)

Just wanna add that merantau is both Minang and Indonesian (Malay) words. The word has identical meaning in both languages, and the case is not uncommon since the two languages are closely related. (Naval Scene) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.155.90.53 (talk) 16:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

POV?

Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) is the official language of Indonesia and a remarkable language in several ways. It is, in a sense, a very "modern" language officially it came into being only in 1945, and it is a dynamic language that is constantly absorbing new loanwords.

Is this introductory sentence POV, or at least not scientific? Thanks ~ Dpr 04:56, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, it may be POV but you need expert to say it is not scientific. AFAIK, Indonesian Language does absorbing new loanwords (and it annoys lot of Indonesian expert in Pusat Pembinaan dan Pengembangan Bahasa Indonesia). It even does create new words (even me, a 24 years old Indonesian sometimes hard to understand teenager because they used new words while my mother, a 55 years old sometimes hard to understand me because I use some word that only understand by my generation [21-25]). Due to social-political unstability, some word had their meaning changed (most of them become pejorative). And penetration of national media-mass (especially media mass and television) made new words whose previously only limited to a community become widespread even to rural area. Kunderemp 20:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, Pusat Pembinaan dan Pengembangan Bahasa Indonesia also try to substitute such new word with "strange" new word (at least for me), which really annoys me. Such example are "transparansi" which unsuccessfully substituted by "beningan". Why don't just use "kertas mika" which are better known (at least for stationery merchants). Many scientist I know, describe this as immature nature of Indonesial language as English in early days which absorbed lots of loanwords from French, Latin, and another language. Draconins 15:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

are there measure words?

The Malay language article says that Malay has measure words. Does Indonesian? This seems quite important since most Malayo-Polynesian languages don't - and if Indonesian doesn't, it should be noted as one of the major differences between Indonesian and the Malay language. Gronky 17:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

A month later: can anyone answer this?? Gronky 22:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I assume this refers to words like piece of fruit or head of cattle. Indonesian does have words like this, but they don't seem to be essential - at least they aren't used for most nouns, in my experience of spoken Indonesian.

A more common term is classifier - you'll find more info by googling for e.g. "classifier indonesian buah"

See Indonesian Quantification Words and this Bahasa Malaysia lesson which looks consistent with Indonesian. --Singkong2005 02:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Indonesian have measure words for example, five dogs can be translanted into "Lima ekor anjing" which literally means "Five tail dogs". "Ekor" is used as measurewords for animal.

This is not essential, though, and several local slang do bypass the Measure word.

I disagree. Although most people nowadays seem to use buah for almost anything, there are still a number of such measure words or noun classifiers in common use such as biji (for seeds and round things), ekor (animals), batang (sticks, sigarettes, long things). Saying these words are not essential because local slang bypasses these words, is rubbish. Local slang isn't Bahasa Indonesia. MartijnL 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

ConvertIPA?

A {{ConvertIPA}} tag has been added to this page. I don't speak Indonesian, but I speak another western malayo-polynesian language, and I wonder if Indonesian is really that difficult to pronounce. Is it not true that Indonesian uses only sounds that English speakers know? and that the most useful transcription would therefore be an English one? ...since more English speakers speak English than IPA :-) Gronky 14:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

That's completely not the point. The point is that pronunciation in Wikipedia is indicated using the IPA. Just because the sounds of Indonesian happen to overlap with the sounds of the language that this wikipedia is written in is irrelevent. --86.135.179.53 03:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I see that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (pronunciation) agrees with you. I'm not convinced of the wisdom of this policy for western malayo-polynesian languages, but I'm not concerned enough right now to raise this on the Manual of Style pages. Gronky 03:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Gronky. It would be useful to have a guide for English speakers as well as the IPA. However, perhaps this would best be done using another site such as Wikibooks, which would then be linked from this section. Wikibooks would also be the best place for most of the text under "Here are a few useful tips for the learner".

I wrote the guide for British and Australian learners, as the original example for the schwa sound did assume an American accent. That's no longer relevant so I've removed my addition. --Singkong2005 01:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Spoken & informal Indonesian

I would like to see more info on spoken and informal Indonesian. Including:

• the ai on the end of base words is often pronounced as /e/.
• the me- is often dropped in verbs, although the transformed initial vowel is usually retained.
• the tendency to spell words phonetically in written personal communication and I perhaps also in some "trendy" media such as youth magazines (if my memory is correct). E.g.: capai becomes capek, pakai become pake, kalau becomes kalo.
• a brief description of some of the differences in word choice, sentence structure and flexibility between official Indonesian and the commonly spoken language.

However my experience is with Java, esp East Java and I could be simply reflecting pronunciation patterns there. Also, I realise that my experience alone does not meet the Wikipedia standard of verifiability.

A lot of things described as Indonesian slang language don't look like slang to me, but simply common usage. I'm not a linguist though, and am not too clear on the distinctions.

Also, I am unhappy with this section of the article:

the degree of "correctness" of spoken Indonesian (in terms of grammar and vocabulary) by comparison to its written form is noticeably low. This is due to the fact that most Indonesians prefer to mix their own local dialects (Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese, and even Chinese) with Indonesian when speaking, which results in the creation of various types of accented Indonesian, the very types that a foreigner is most likely to hear upon arriving in any Indonesian city or town.

I don't think that's the only important reason. Indonesian seems to me to be a lot more flexible and expressive than the formal language. Partly this comes from dropping a lot of the requirements of the official language, such as classifiers (ekor, buah...). Sometimes spoken Indonesian changes word order for emphasis, which I doubt is allowed formal Indonesian (e.g. when speaking I think you could say "ada buku sepuluh" instead of "ada sepuluh buku", to emphasise that there's a lot of books). Just my observations.

I'd be surprised if common people ever spoke in that really correct Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia baik dan benar) - I was told by a lecturer that the people who put together the guidelines for the official language were influenced by Dutch grammar. The formal language was an artificial construct. As such, it seems unfair to judge Indonesians' usage of their own language as being low in degree of "correctness". --Singkong2005 02:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There was someone who spoke Indonesian correctly ('Bahasa Indonesia yang baik dan benar'). It was Richard Gozney, a British Ambassador for Indonesia. I heard him in radio and I didn't realize he was foreigner. I was amazed by his diction and how he spoke Indonesian perfectly (without foreigner's accent at all). And when the interviewer mentioned his name and his job as British Ambassador, I really got shocked. No wonder in 2003 he got an award for "tokoh berbahasa Indonesia lisan terbaik" (best Indonesian language speaker). Kunderemp 18:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Another thought on this:

This is due to the fact that most Indonesians prefer to mix their own local dialects (Javanese, Sundanese, Balinese, and even Chinese) with Indonesian when speaking,

There are national patterns in informal language as well, including a widespread use of elements of Jakarta slang (lu = you, gue = me) no doubt due to national media. --Singkong2005 14:51, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

From my point of view, the dialect (Javanese, Malang, or even the slank Jakarta language) that influence the Indonesian language, still can be called "Indonesian Language", since it didn't change the language afterall. It only adds spice here and over there, to make informal conversation more lively. Because as long as there are teenagers in a nation, there will be a new slang words in every generation. But in formal usage, even in formal media such as newspaper, book, or journal, it still use a good Indonesian Language. Even though there is some places in the rural village that purely use a dialect language, or maybe a second mother-language such as Chinese (Mandarin) and English, it's not widely used. It's only most used when they are talking to their relatives or families, but not when they are talking with their friends or their bussiness partner. --Mightymartin 20 January 2006

10,000 Europeans loanwords revisited

The one who proposed that there are 10,000 Dutch (and other European) loanwords was Prof. Dr. Jan W. de Vries from the Departement of Dutch in University of Leiden. He has made an extensive research in the European loanwords in Indonesian. He was also co-athour of the following book: European loan-words in Indonesian : a check-list of words of European origin in Bahasa Indonesia and traditional Malay together with C.D. Grijns and L. Santa Maria. Leiden : Koninklijk Instituut voor Taal-, Land- en Volkenkunde. 1983. ISBN 9067180041. C.D. Grijns is already deceased but Prof. Dr. J. de Vries is still alive although he is retired (born 1937). Meursault2004 08:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The estimated numbers of loanwards will keep changing unless we make sure that there are proper references for these figures. (Now it reads "21,000 Arabic...and a staggering number of some 200 loanwords from Dutch." It's a mess.) Is the book you mention, European loan-words in Indonesian, the source of the 10,000 words claim, or is that elsewhere? Do you know of estimates given for other languages, and the sources of those estimates if different from the Dutch estimate?

Orang = man/person

According to the main page on the Indonesian language "There is no word like the English man that can refer both to a male person and to a human being in general." What about "orang"? A German for example, male or female, can say "saya orang jerman" - "I am a German person" or "I am German".

On the other hand using "man" in English to mean a human in general is historically valid but not acceptable to all, especially feminists.

Or I misunderstanding something here?

Yes you are right. Perhaps we can correct that. Meursault2004 15:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dental sounds?

The article says:

t and d are dental 

My own observation is that t is pronounced a long way forward (the tongue is almost as far forward as in the English th), whereas the d is a bit further back, barely touching the teeth. This seemed to be the main difference (as opposed to English, where the main or only difference is that t is voiced and d is unvoiced). This is based on my own experience, sitting down with a native speaker and learning to precisely copy her pronunciation. Is there a definitive answer on this? --Singkong2005 14:42, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it also may depend on where your native speaker comes from... A Jakartan will probably have another accent than someone from (e.g.) Sumatra or Maluku... About "t": forward but (in my experience) dental. As for "d": I'll have to check with my wife ;-) MartijnL 05:48, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. I am a native speaker, and the places of articulation for my 't' and 'd' are different. One evidence is that when Indonesian is written with Javanese script, the 't' sound is represented with the dental 't' letter, but the 'd' sound is represented with the retroflex 'dh' letter. (In Javanese, the dental and retroflex stops are both phonemic.) It would be nice if there is some scientific research that confirms this. Hzb pangus (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Indonesian Wikibooks needs help!!!!!

I would just like to say this to anybody who has come to this wikipedia article and would like to help wikimedia:)... The wikibooks Indonesian language course at the moment is a bit useless in realistic terms, I viewed it some long months ago and noticed this fact however when I look back now it is the same state! I assume that the person who originally took up the initiative in now either too busy or unable to continue with the project, I am studying Indonesian at the moment but haven't been studying very long so I have a vested intrest in this article getting better:).

Anyway if anybody would like to do this wikibooks is really very much simular in user and creater interface, if you go to; [[1]] you will get lots of advice on how to create a wikibook teaching a language (if you are interested).

Thanks to anybody who is interested in taking a look.

I'll try.. Kunderemp 18:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Suriname : Indonesian or Javanese?

" Indonesian is also spoken by some people in East Timor, and in Suriname among that nation's large community of people of Indonesian descent. "

The majority of Indonesian decendents in Suriname are from Java, hence their principal language is Javanese. Citation needs to be given on the extent that Indonesian is spoken and/or understood in Suriname.

" In Suriname the Javanese is spoken in 17% of the home of Javanese families; Dutch 33%, and Sranantongo 28%. " (source)

Javanese, Dutch and Sranantongo. No mention of Bahasa Indonesia.

Yes you're right. Indonesian is not spoken there, perhaps except by the staff of the Indonesian Embassy ... Meursault2004 06:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Conlang?!

I've heard this language called a Conlang, isn't this more like a Creole?Cameron Nedland 21:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely not conlang and not a creole language, too. Officially it's a language in its own right but some people may argue that it's a dialect of Malay language. Hayabusa future 15:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

But isn't it a mixed language of sorts? Like mostly Malay with some Dutch and English and Japanese?Cameron Nedland 21:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Mixed languages" require more than simply words to be borrowed into its vocabulary. Otherwise English would be considered a mix of practically every language on earth. --Ptcamn 07:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks.Cameron Nedland 13:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Second Languange ?

The language is spoken fluently as a second language by most Indonesians, who generally use a regional language (examples are Minangkabau and Javanese) at home and in their local community.
I think the statement above is wrong. Bahasa Indonesia ( Indonesia languange ) is use majority by Indonesian. So Indonesian languange actually use as a first languange by most Indonesian. --_Annas_ 10:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Second language means the language one learns after their first language. For an Australia, or a Brit, their first language is going to be English. While you are correct in saying that it is used by a majority of Indonesians this does not necessarily mean that it is the first language (ie, first learnt) of a majority of Indonesians, nor does it mean that everyone uses it as their primary language - everyday they might use other local languages. THe article does say that a majority of Indonesians can and do speak Indonesian. I know it is common though for Jakartans to have learned Indonesian as their first (and only) local language with, maybe, English as their second. --Merbabu 13:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the criteria of a primary language is not only the first language learnt, but also the language that subject is more proficient in. Although it is true that in very remote area local dialects are the first verbal communication methods taught, the more prevailing cases are where both languages (local dialects and Indonesian) are introduced simultaneously. I have never heard of any study done in this area regarding that "Indonesian is spoken as a second language by MOST Indonesian". It is a very strong statement and solid proof should be cited in that case, in my oppinion. --this unsigned edit from User -128.189.172.116

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indonesian_language" -- This unsigned edit from User:Arsen

From what I read about First Language, the term itself still far from standarized. The second paragraph of the opening could lead to a confusion among the reader. Some reader would mean first language as mother tounge while other wouldn't. To make a more objective article for Indonesian language, I'd suggest that the paragraph is moved to another topic, which probably can be combined with multilingual issue as Indonesian is a multiethnic & multilanguage country.A h3210 10:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"Official Status" importance

Is this part of the article really necessary? It's already stated in the beginning that Bahasa Indonesia is the country's official language.

Adverb

I tried to write about the adverb in the Indonesian language. It`s more complicated than I thought. I mean, I`m not a linguist, but I`m an Indonesian and able to speak Indonesian language perfectly. Still it`s somewhat confusing. Can anybody help me on writing this? Examples:

• Ia berjalan cepat (He is walking fast)
• Ia berjalan dengan cepat (He is walking quickly)
• Ia berjalan cepat-cepat (He is walking in a hurry)
• Ia berjalan secara cepat (???)

He is walking in a hurried manner? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syedhusni (talk • contribs) 10:09, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Negation

Under the negation section, only "bukan" and "tidak" have been covered, and "jangan" briefly. In theory, "belum" is also a negation word, for example, Saya belum pergi ke kantornya. It has similar meaning to "tidak" (that is, used for verbs) although more specifically it means "not yet" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by I heart duff (talk • contribs) 10:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

It literally means have not, I don't know if that counts as a negation.--Hamster X (talk) 08:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Glottal Stops and Tonic Syllables

Hi everyone. I have decided to ask these questions in the hopes that someone - maybe a native speaker or a someone with more expertise on the subject - can add these clarifications to the "Phonology" section of the article, because it has been sometime since I am looking for these answers, and I am sure more beginning students of these languages have been having the same doubts as me:

1. I think I read somewhere that in Indonesian and Malay there is an "automatic" glottal stop before each word-initial vowel (even if this vowel is preceeded by a word ending in a consonant), and between any vowels - with the exception of diphthongs, obviously. I did not gave this much thought though, until I realized that that was the way the words were being pronounced in the "Rosetta Stone - Indonesian" language learning software. So here is the question: In the "RS-I" software, are the words being pronounced like that just to make them more easily intelligible for beginners like myself, or are they really pronounced like that in everyday conversations? For instance, a simple sentence like

Apakah ada seorang pria di atas rumah itu?

Would be pronounced

[ʔa'pakah 'ʔada se'ʔorang 'pria di 'ʔatas 'rumah 'ʔitu]

Or, in normal (or maybe fast-paced) conversation,

[a'pakah'adase'orang'priadi'atas'rumah'itu]?

(' = Tonic Syllable)

2. In the same software ("Rosetta Stone - Indonesian"), the tonic syllables of some words seem to be the last one instead of the penultimate, even when the vowel in this syllable is not the schwa, and some words even seem to "change" their tonic syllable according to who is saying them. So here is the other question: Are the accentuation rules really just

"If the penultimate has a schwa, the last syllable is the tonic one; if the penultimate does not have a schwa, the penultimate is the tonic one;"

Or is this wrong?

Thank you very much, XVoX 23:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on the Phonology Section

A few considerations:

First, if the vowels [ɛ] and [ɔ] are not phonemic, why are they in a chart of phonemes? I think it would probably be better to put them in a note under the chart.

Second, if the diphthongs are only diphthongs in open syllables, are they really diphthongs at all? It seems much more natural to me to analyze a hypothetical root moi as a closed syllable with onset /m/, nucleus /o/, and coda /j/ than to postulate that [oj] is a diphthong and then qualify that by saying that it's only a diphthong in open syllables.

Third, the note about the glottal stop is confusing. Is it a phoneme in its own right, or only an allophone of /k/?

And finally (and this is almost completely inconsequential), isn't it more usual to put the plosives above the nasals in a consonant inventory chart?

I'm super open to responses or criticisms of my points -- after all, I don't know the first thing about Indonesian. Ciao, Froboyd 20:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure myself if the "diphthongs" in Indonesian are actually a diphthong or a final consonant, like what you suggested. I think the difference between the two is whether the sound is treated as a nucleus or a coda. Consider these examples:

 ma.kan + an = ma.ka.nan (dots indicate syllable boundaries)
 i.ris + an = i.ri.san

If the last syllable of a word has a coda, the coda moves to the onset position when the suffix -an is added. However,

 be.lai + an = be.lai.an, NOT be.la.yan (the pronunciation of be.lai.an is different from, say, pe.la.yan)
 gu.rau + an = gu.rau.an, NOT gu.ra.wan

So, I think the Indonesian "diphthongs" are really diphthongs.

Also, I think the glottal stop in Indonesian is a phoneme of its own right. Consider this near minimal pair: badak (ends with a k) and tidak (ends with a glottal stop, although written with k). There are, however, free variation in many words. 131.111.184.8 (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Linguistics Section

Hi, I cleaned up this section stylistically, and tried to cut down on what seemed to be a POV - going on about how Indonesian was "soulless." I don't think the author intended it to be POV because they included the other side of the debate in the next paragraph, but it definitely read that way. I think the English of this paragraph is good now but someone with a better knowledge of Indonesian than me (all I know about the language is that I'll be learning it this summer) should try to fix this and make sure it is encyclopedic. Cheers, 18.214.1.179 04:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)thewhiterabbit

Morphology

I came to this article hoping to learn about the morphology of Indonesian, so obviously I didn't know anything about this language to start. I do however have a suggestion: morphologists commonly distinguish inflectional from derivational morphology. The article talks about the richness of Indonesian morphology ("The Indonesian language utilises a complex system of affixes..."), and while they're certainly complex from one standpoint, it appears to me that they're virtually all derivational affixes: deriving nouns from 'base' words (= verbs), deriving verbs from 'base' words (= nouns), and maybe adjusting the argument structure (passive). Virtually all of these are examples of derivational affixation; only the reduplicative plural is clearly inflectional. It might therefore be good to say up front that Indonesian has complex derivational morphology, but little or no inflectional morphology. (In this respect, it is like English only more so.) I hesitate to make this change myself, because as I say, I knew nothing about Bahasa Indonesian to start with.

Also, I think rather than talking about affixes which derive nouns from other words as "noun affixes", it would be better to call them "nominalizing affixes." Likewise "verb affixes" --> "verbalizing affixes", and "adjective affixes" --> "adjectivizing affixes." That is, these are not affixes that go on nouns etc., but rather affixes that derive nouns etc.

Riau Malay

Among historian and archeologist, Riau Malay is classified as Melayu Tinggi (Higher Malay), while Bahasa Indonesia came from Melayu Pasar (Lower Malay). So the statement "According to the Ethnologue, Indonesian is modelled after Riau Malay.." is irrelevant. Lower Malay was used widely by traveler from Eastern Indonesia, China, European, and Indian as lingua franca. Higher Malay was only used in aristocracy around Sumatra and Java. Hariadhi 18:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

While it is commonly accepted that Indonesian was derived from High Malay, Melani Budianta's article "Diverse Voices: Indonesian Literature and Nation-Building” in Lee Hock Guan and Leo Suryadinata (eds.). Language, Nation and Development in Southeast Asia (Singapore: ISEAS. 2007) commented about how Low Malay actually had more to do with the creation of the modern Indonesian language. Low Malay was used in the various mass media in the early 20th century (Sin Po newspaper, for example), while High Malay was the version used by Balai Pustaka's publications. It would be a good idea to put Low Malay as one of the sources of Indonesian - I'd like to do that, however, I would be violating the original research rule as I will probably be quoting from my essays. Indrak (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

One should read a paper from Harimurti Kridalaksana, rejecting the notion that Indonesian used to be Bazar Malay. Standar Indonesian has always been come from BP version (and traced back to the works of Raja Ali Haji -- he can be seen to certain measure as "Martin Luther of Malay language"), until now. Colloquial Indonesian, on the other hand, adopts many elements and vocab from Bazar Malay, as well as the so-called Peranakan Malay (Indonesian version), but this does not change the conservative form of formal Indonesian. One may easily be errored because Indonesian used in Jakarta, which is now dominating the media, heavily influenced by Jakartan/Betawi language (which stemmed from Bazar Malay). Kembangraps (talk) 14:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Question and preference

“ Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) ”

Shouldn't it be the other way around? It should say Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian Language), because in Wikipedia Bahasa Indonesia, if you write an English titled book say, The Hobbit, translated as Sang Hobit (Bahasa Indonesia) -- it still need to be titled its origin.

So I vote for Bahasa Indonesia. Beside, I still think Indonesian refer to Indonesian people, not the language...

“ Indonesian is a standardized dialect of the Malay language ”

This is correct.

“ Malaysian and Indonesian languages remain quite similar. ”

Oi! This is not correct. As Malaysian gain their independence, they define Bahasa Melayu to their own standarization also, it should be call Bahasa Melayu Malaysia. Why? Because we have no idea what their talking about most of the time.

Malaysian and Indonesian do not speak in Melayu language anymore, it was long far off -- we have to conversate in English in order to avoid awful misunderstanding. Of course this apply to most Indonesian, the one reside in North Sumatra, might still have a lil bit of similarity.. Serenity id 10:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever read about the Swadesh list? It is list of the basic vocabulary of a language. One can also use it to test whether two languages are dialects of one another or quite different languages. Personally I understand Malay reasonably well. It is still very close to Indonesian although Malaysian Malay uses different vocabulary. And I don't come from North Sumatra :-) On the other hand perhaps my style is somewhat old fashioned or even archaic *LOL* Meursault2004 10:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the English language wikipedia. In English language Bahasa Indonesian is known as 'Indonesian'. Hence the correct term for the article is 'Indonesian'. Putting "Bahasa Indonesian" in brackets, once, is merely for convenience. Merbabu 10:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

"This is the English language wikipedia. " -- Ok

But if this article is talking about the same thing about Bahasa Indonesia in the left hand bar, why should it be "put there" merely for convenience? I found that somewhat interesting fenomena....not.

Malaysian and Indonesian languages remain quite similar -- this is what happen if you refer Malaysian (as language) equal to Bahasa Melayu. Mersault, are we (Bahasa Indonesia) not similar to Bahasa Melayu and vocabularly (is this word even english? :D ) quite different with Bahasa Melayu Malaysia?

I am Indonesian native, again, I would like to state that most Indonesian have to think really hard to understand Malaysian (Bahasa Melayu Malaysia).

@ Mersault + As for "I'm not reside in North Sumatra" -- Excuse me, but are you not pursuing Ph.D in language? You understand a lil bit of Serbo-Croatia for heaven sake, that doesn't put you in place as most Indonesian .. pfft... Serenity id 10:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay what if we change the sentence a bit:

“ Malaysian and Indonesian languages remain similar. ”

Well Malay or Bahasa Melayu is actually some kind of a blanket term for all languages in Southeast-Asia and beyond, which are somewhat connected to a hypothetical standard "Malay". So it is normal that Malaysian has diverged much from standard Malay as with Indonesian. However the basic vocabularies of the two languages remain similar (refering to Swadesh list again). And I think most Indonesians can converse without problems with Malaysians, on the condition they don't talk about science or politics :-) Meursault2004 11:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I better change it.

Additionally although it is officially defined in 1945, it is declare in 1928 by Sumpah Pemuda is it not? I think it should be mentioned.

"most Indonesians can converse without problems with Malaysians" what is your base? Your personal experience conversing with them? you are ms-3, sure you don't have a problem. I can't even agree upon a date once with a Malaysian simply because he can't speak English and I failed grasp what he was talking. Print one article with the same topic in Malay and Indonesian (source from :en) and give it to any ordinary Indonesian and see what percentage of understanding they share in common. I dare say won't be more than 20% and that list of yours need an update. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Serenity id (talk • contribs) 02:08, 25 April 2007.

I think I already said that above. I am not talking about my personal experience, you did. As the basic vocabulary of Malaysian is not that different than Indonesian, it can be safely argued that Malaysians can converse with Indonesians without much problems. On the condition that they hold simple conversations using basic words. On the other hand even Indonesians can have troubles understanding each others, especially people with different ethnic and cultural hackgrounds.

Yes of course, Sumpah Pemuda (or Soempah Pemoeda as it was spelt in 1928) can be added. It is however better if a reference can be given. Me personally, I haven't found any reference yet, perhaps you have? Meursault2004 07:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Indonesian and Malaysian Malay are quite similar, at least if we stick to standardized Malay. I can look up the words I don't understand from Malay texts from the Kamus Besar Bahasa Indonesia, an Indonesian monolingual dictionary.

But I think spoken language in practice is a different case. Spoken Indonesian usually has a lot loanwords, some not yet accepted as standard, from local dialects--in Jakarta, for example. Malay-speaking region, e.g. North Sumatra, Riau, and Jambi are notable exceptions. This make it hard for Malaysians to understand typical Indonesian conversations. And it is quite difficult and unusual (and strange for some) for Indonesians to pick Malay-derived words only when speaking. I believe there are local dialects in Malaysia as well, unfamiliar to Indonesians. Gombang 14:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Anybody interested to learn about history and relation bahasa Indonesia & bahasa Melayu can visit here:- http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1077&context=ies Yosri (talk) 11:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Alphabet

Why does the Indonesian language use the Latin alphabet? Was there an other writing system before the colonisation? Aaker 11:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Indonesian is a form of Malay. First it was written with an Indian / Brahmic derived alphabet. Then Arabic script was used before finally the Latin script. Meursault2004 14:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

First language status

I couldn't find in the article - how many people speak it as their mother tongue? And which regions are more concentrated with speakers for whom it is a first language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.203.230.27 (talk) 05:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

About the English name for Indonesian

I removed the following from the intro: "In the same way that English speakers would refer to the official language of United States of America as 'American'. The most accurate way of referring to Indonesia's national language in English is 'Indonesian'."

a) the U.S. doesn't have an official language
b) as far as I know, no English-speakers ever refer to any language as "American".
c) there is no indication given of what makes "Indonesian" more accurate than "Bahasa Indonesia"—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 17:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't this page at least link to Malay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.20.48 (talk) 13:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Infixes?

I question the assertion that Indonesian makes use of infixes. In all of my studies and usage, in- and outside of Indonesia, I have never learned this.

The examples of infixes given: tunjuk>telunjuk, kelut>kemelut, gigi>gerigi; indeed trace semantic connections between similar words, but this is not evidence enough to say that infixes are a regular part of the language. If they are, they are not standardized like the prefixes, suffixes, and circumfixes that appear ubiquitously. I would even say if there is a case for infixes in Indonesian at all, it is an archaic usage and should be noted as such.

As for those examples, the language is riddled with redundancies of very similar words with identical or near-identical meanings. (for example, tawaan and tertawaan both mean, roughly, "the object of ridicule".)

However, I am not going to omit the sections on Infixes from the article because I'd rather get some feedback first and I also find the prospect of (archaic) infixes fascinating. Paralysisordeath (talk)

Informal Language

Firstly: "Indonesian found in Jakarta and its surrounding area". There is an article to Betawi language, which I linked to this sentence.
Secondly, the word "nggak" is not javanese (Javanese would be: "ndak"). (I know as I was born in Central Java, and my mother toungues are both Indonesian and Javanese. I was raised partly in Central Java and in Jakarta.) I changed it to betawi language. w_tanoto (talk) 16:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

"Linguistics" section - overly defensive, not really about "linguistics"

The "Linguistics" section seems to be spending a lot of effort to convince us (without quite mentioning what it is trying to convince us of) that Indonesian is not a "simplistic" or "primitive" or pidgin languange.

This is entirely unnecessary. We simply accept Indonesian for whatever its nature is.

These characteristics -- a grammatical system which is fairly simple other than for a complex system of affixations, and much borrowed vocabulary (cite languages) -- should simply be laid out in a straightforward manner.

Then some comment about some people (referenced) finding some deficiency in the language for certain purposes and other people (referenced) defending it as suitable for these uses can be made.

We might even, if referenceable, mention the point that some Indonesians seem to be a little touchy on this subject  : )

In any case, the term "Linguistics" is not really appropriate as the name of this section. "Linguistics" is an extremely broad term meaning anything to do with the scientific study of language. An appropriate term here would be "Overview" or "General Characteristics".

Writing System - "W" vs "V"?

In the old, and new, spelling systems, what is the status of the letters "w" and "v"?

How does this relate to the spelling of Java as Jawa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.145.95 (talk) 09:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

there is no change of spelling of "w" and "v". Regarding Java, here is an example:

Padi is Indonesian word for Paddy
Jawa is Indonesian word for Java
It's merely a translation, not spelling change.w_tanoto (talk) 00:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

"Linguistics" section removed

I've removed the section because, as some people pointed out in sections above, it's ill-defined and not useful for an encyclopedia. "Linguistics" is a poor title for a section (what does the "linguistics" of Indonesian refer to? everything in the article is linguistic), and it seems to be a typical rant over how the language is not as primitive as some undefined, imaginary people think. First of all, this is not an encyclopedic topic—it's more appropriate in a journal article or an editorial, not a technical description of the language. An encyclopedia aims to describe what the features of a language are, not whether they qualify as 'advanced' or whatever. Secondly, it's arguing against a straw man; in this day and age, very few (if any) serious linguists regard any major languages, or even minor languages, as "undeveloped". This same sort of rant has been repeated for countless languages (I remember recently reading a 30-page rant about how Vietnamese is not an isolating language, how it's a fully-developed language and don't insult us with your 'isolating language' mumbo jumbo!!!) but the truth is you're not really arguing against anyone anymore. Sure, many languages have sparse technical vocabularies, but other than that no one believes that some languages are inherently more 'primitive' than others.

Anyway, here is the last revision of the article before I removed the section. In case anyone wants to integrate bits of it elsewhere. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Help needed at Imagine Peace page

There is an opportunity to add the Indonesian version of the English imperative phrase "Imagine Peace" to the In other languages section of Imagine Peace Tower. Put all in upper case if appplicable. If a choice of wording, select that most commonly used by "the common man". Thanks. Irv (talk) 15:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Grammatical gender

The section on grammatical gender is nonsense. It starts out by saying "generally" Indonesian has no grammatical gender. I then plunges into a discussion on the existence of a few words with "natural gender".

The problem is that grammatical gender is a category of European languages (nounse classed into masculine, feminine, neuter in German, masculine and feminine in French, etc., etc.) and doesn't have much relationship with natural gender. Indonesian doesn't have grammatical gender, full stop. The long discussion of natural gender is quite superfluous and should be scrapped. There are much more significant things that should be discussed in an article on Indonesian, and this section basically clutters up the article.

Bathrobe (talk) 23:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Good point. I implemented "full stop" as you suggested. First paragraph should focus on the main point, which is lack of grammatical gender. Words like husband, wife, widow, widower (one of the few words in English where masculine form derives from feminine form) are minor in comparions. Martindo (talk) 03:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Portuguese and other non-Dutch loan words

"sabun" (soap) appears as a Portuguese loan word from "sabaõ", but its pronunciation is closer to the Arabic (ṣabun/صبون), from where the Portuguese seem to have inherited their version from.

a serious etymological Portuguese dictionary clearly states the Arabic origin of the word.

it is hard to fathom that the word has gone from Arabic to Portuguese and then to Indonesian back in its original Arabic form. But everything is possible and if research demonstrates that, I suggest to leave the page as is, otherwise, it would be nicer to move "sabun" from the Portuguese loan-words to the Arabic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cerniagigante (talk • contribs) 08:57, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Checking the translations in Wiktionary, I see that besides Arabic (the likeliest historical source), the word is also much closer to other languages that influenced Indonesian than it is to Portuguese, e.g., Hindi (sābun/साबुन), and dates back to at least Attic Greek (sapon/σάπων). I doubt there's sufficient evidence for the cited reference (Ricklefs) to be authoritative on this question. Enoent (talk) 04:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

"Aku" (=Me/I) derived from Javanese?

In the "History" section:
<< There are also words derived from Javanese, e.g. aku (meaning I/ me (informal) >>

Isn't aku simply Standard Indonesian of Malay origin?

Marxolang (talk) 07:09, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I think so too. I guess it exists both in Indonesian and Javanese because common Austronesian origin, not because it is picked up from Javanese. But I can't prove it. Gombang (talk) 13:15, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Tying this page to others

In the lead, I created a link for national language. Hopefully, some of us with experience on this topic can create an Indonesian section on that page.

I also rearranged the examples of bahasa daerah (regional languages) in accordance with Languages of Indonesia which probably deserves a link or two from the text of this page.

I would like to suggest the possibility of splitting some of the more technical aspects of the language into an Indonesian Linguistics page. This might free up space for a more sociological discussion of the implications of gender neutral third person (e.g., references to God).

Finally, it might or might not be advisable to link to the folk etymology page List_of_loan_words_in_Indonesian. Martindo (talk) 03:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Philippines included in the Indonesian language map

There seems to be an error in including the Philippines in the map. I don't think there is a significant number of speakers/users of Indonesian language in the Philippines. According to the latest Census in the Philippines, if I remember correctly, Indonesian language is not even recorded.

See! Exactly what I'm saying. I don't know, a lot of online sources I've seen reenntly say that Indonesian is spoken in the Philippines. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:18, 24 March 2012 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Pronunciation of "c"

Is it really ʧ? I have my doubts, since in this pronunciation guide also linked in the article (see here) they clearly state that it's in-between "ty" in "get your..." and English "ch". So wouldn't it rather be closer to Chinese Mandarin /t͡ɕ/ (also known in Polish)? -andy 92.229.121.191 (talk) 14:01, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I am not a real expert but Malay "c" is mentioned in Voiceless postalveolar affricate (i.e. /t͡ʃ/). I listened to the samples of /t͡ɕ/ and /t͡ʃ/ and I think the latter is closest to Indonesian "c". Native speakers (I speak Indonesian but I am not a native speaker) could possibly shed some more light on this. Martijn ^→!?← 22:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Ejaan Yang Disempurnakan (EYD)

According to my knowledge, in Indonesia, there's a kind of law called EYD (Ejaan Yang Disempurnakan, enhanced spelling). It's used to unite correct many kinds of Indonesian false writings. What I'm going to tell is, in EYD there is not any of apostrophe is used. So if you write Al Qur'an, it's wrong. The true form is Al Quran without apostrophe. But sadly, most Indonesian people are ignoring this. I am an Indonesian and I hate when someone write Indonesian words without considering the spelling. So, I recommend to read id:Kata_Indonesia_yang_sering_salah_dieja. It is in Indonesian Wikipedia Sersan Mayor Kururu (talk) 20:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Indonesian phonology article

Should this be created? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bruinfan12 (talk • contribs) 15:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why it should. Oh, and please sign your talk page posts. --JorisvS (talk) 15:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Section in the article isn't long enough to be a stand-alone article. Focus should be on expanding here first before creating a new article. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Terima Kasiy.

Bruinfan12 (talk) 12:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Dutch influence on origins

"Indonesian is a normative form of the Malay language, an Austronesian (or Malayo-Polynesian) language which has been used as a lingua franca in the Indonesian archipelago for centuries. It was elevated to the status of official language with the Indonesian declaration of independence in 1945"

Oddily enough, Benedict Anderson's famous Imagined Communities claims Indonesian formed as a distinct language from Malay precisely because it was adopted by native personel of Dutch East Indies administration. Shouldn't the article mention this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.117.53 (talk) 20:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

'one of the most widely spoken languages in the world?'

I was just wondering how misleading the comment about Indonesian being one of the most widely spoken languages in the world is. I read it and immediately thought wow, it must be somewhere up there with Spanish or something, but when I checked the page that this comment links to it comes 30th on the list, well after, for example, Polish, which is not a language often hears of as being cited as a widely spoken language.

Do you think we need to modify this statement? Thomas Threlfo (talk) 02:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

People normally consider speakers, not native speakers. Even excluding Malaysian, there's got to be 200k+, which puts it easily in the top ten. But it isn't widely spoken at all. So yeah, we do need better wording. — kwami (talk) 06:38, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

"Bahasa Indonesia"

Reffering Bahasa Indonesia as Indonesian would create confucion. It can be refered to Indonesian language, or Bahasa Indonesia, but not Indonesian. Since Indonesian means people of Indonesia. "Indonesian speaks Indonesian and an American speaks Indonesian" is quite confusing. So ISO 639 refer to the language that is used by people of Indonesia: Indonesian language. But the name of the language it self is Bahasa Indonesia. I prefer to use CIA as reference: they simply use Bahasa Indonesia. 114.79.12.206 (talk) 10:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

The English term for "Bahasa Indonesia" is Indonesian. "Bahasa Indonesia" is an Indonesia, not English, term. Wikipedia does not use, for example, "Deutsch" to describe German. The only reason this page has the word "language" added to the title is to distinguish it (ie, disambiguate it) from other meanings of Indonesian (which is the same in German). --Merbabu (talk) 11:08, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Bahasa Indonesia, is the formal name for the Indonesian language. Like Tagalog/Filipino, the formal name is Wikang Tagalog or Wikang Filipino and Spanish is Idioma Español but almost NOBODY uses those formal terms. Bahasa Indonesia is mostly used with Indonesian speakers, but with English is can be and is a formal term referring to Indonesian. The term "Bahasa" is not as strict as using Deutsch to refer to German or Ruskyie when referring to Russian when using English. But yes, Bahasa Indonesian does mean "Indonesian language" in both Indonesian and standard Malay. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:22, 24 March 2012 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Spoken in Vietnam?

Hi, I was interested to notice that the sidebar lists that the Indonesian Language is also spoken in Vietnam, but I couldn't find any other mention of this in the actual article, or on the Vietnamese page. Could this be an error? The CIA world fact book lists the following languages for Vietnam (Vietnamese (official), English (increasingly favored as a second language), some French, Chinese, and Khmer, mountain area languages (Mon-Khmer and Malayo-Polynesian) <https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2098.html> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awarua (talk • contribs) 01:36, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps they are referring to Cham which has some distant link to Javanese. Duyet-pho (talk) 09:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Indonesian came from a "dialect" of Malay???

One of the very first sentences reads: "Indonesian is a normative form of the Riau Islands dialect of Malay". This can be misleading. Indonesian was not derived from a mere dialect of Malay spoken in the Riau Islands. It came from the "Malay language spoken in the Riau Islands", which did not only differ from the Malay language spoken in Malaysia in terms of dialect or accent, but also in terms of vocabulary and colloquial expressions. Therefore, I think the sentence should be changed into: "Indonesian is a standardized form of the Malay language spoken in the Riau Islands". — Preceding unsigned comment added by R branco1986 (talk • contribs) 16:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

What's the difference? Malaysian is also a normative form of the Riau Islands dialect of Malay, or of the Malay language spoken in the Riau Islands if you prefer. — kwami (talk) 18:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Malaysian or Bahasa Malaysia sounds like a really vague term for standard Malay. I could totally understand Bahasa Indonesia, because it's just like British English and American English but with even more differences that's it's a seperate register of the same language (Malay). PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:24, 24 March 2012 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Where in the Philippines is Indonesian spoken?

I'm from the Philippines. I've been seeing a lot of sources online recently (including this one) pointing out that Indonesian is spoken in the Philippines. Even Pimsleur Approach's Website (a language program) says that Bahasa Indonesia is spoken in the Philippines. Where in the Philippines is Indonesian even spoken? I know Malay, or Bahasa Melayu the standard Malay isn't spoken anywhere. Not at least that I heard of. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:16, 24 March 2012 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.