Talk:Hoochie Coochie Man/Archive 1
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Authorship
He never claimed he wrote it at age 4, he said that Dixon stole all his songs off of boys coming to new york from the delta in exchange for hot means. It's in the film All Dolled Up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.177.73 (talk) 17:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Manfred Mann cover
I know the Manfred Mann song by the same title, and it's not much of a cover, no musical or lyrica similarities at all, I'm afraid. I can see how someone would think it a cover, though, since the title is the exact same, but if you listen to the songs they are clearly not related, so I'll fix this little glitch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hargiwald (talk • contribs) 00:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Offensive material
This article says that he was successful with women as a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is offensive---sexual intercourse with a women does not imply success. I can think of many others things with women that are more meaningful and thus probably deemed more successful. This is simply objectifying, and I'm changing it. This article is already as explicit (which is good). --larz (talk) 16:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
GA Review
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Hoochie Coochie Man/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 21:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Terminology
- In some sections you repeatedly refer to someone by their full name, while in others you refer to the full name first and then the last. I think the latter is the correct format, but it's more important to be consistent. Do you want to refer to Muddy Waters by his full name first and then just his last or always by his full name? Viriditas (talk) 08:16, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was discussed in another article. An editor objected to using "Waters" alone, because it is incorrect to shorten a stage name (Waters is not a surname, his legal name was always McKinley Morganfield). I used Muddy Waters throughout, except twice when it seemed particularly awkward. If this isn't standard practice, I'd prefer to use Muddy Waters once and then Waters. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- How unusual! Was the editor theatre-oriented, by any chance? I have yet to see this convention used in music, however. Can you find any reliable sources on music, the Blues, or Muddy Waters that uses this convention? If the answer is no, then I would suggest using Muddy Waters once and then just Waters as you prefer. If published RS aren't doing this, then the suggestion by the editor seems misplaced. Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- For consistency, I've temporarily added consistent usage based on your chosen format. Feel free to revisit this and change it accordingly. Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Changed to "Waters". MOS:SURNAME includes "People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (e.g. Sting, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used." Most sources use "Waters" and "Wolf" (for Howlin' Wolf"), but "Bo Diddley" is often "Bo Diddley", rather than "Diddley". —Ojorojo (talk) 15:37, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- For consistency, I've temporarily added consistent usage based on your chosen format. Feel free to revisit this and change it accordingly. Viriditas (talk) 04:11, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- How unusual! Was the editor theatre-oriented, by any chance? I have yet to see this convention used in music, however. Can you find any reliable sources on music, the Blues, or Muddy Waters that uses this convention? If the answer is no, then I would suggest using Muddy Waters once and then just Waters as you prefer. If published RS aren't doing this, then the suggestion by the editor seems misplaced. Viriditas (talk) 23:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- This was discussed in another article. An editor objected to using "Waters" alone, because it is incorrect to shorten a stage name (Waters is not a surname, his legal name was always McKinley Morganfield). I used Muddy Waters throughout, except twice when it seemed particularly awkward. If this isn't standard practice, I'd prefer to use Muddy Waters once and then Waters. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:28, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation
Images
- All images and licenses check out and are good to go. Viriditas (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Infobox
- The chronology makes the infobox rather long. Would it be missed? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Lead
- The song is a classic of Chicago blues and was recorded by the Muddy Waters' band
- After the song's initial release in 1954, it became a feature of Muddy Waters' performances, including in his acclaimed set at the 1960 Newport Jazz Festival. Several live renditions recorded at different points in his career have been issued.
- It has been acknowledged by the Grammy Hall of Fame among others and is included in the US Library of Congress' National Recording Registry.
- the machismo posturing
- Do you think the Bo Diddley influence ("I'm a Man") should be mentioned in the lead? Viriditas (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
- The song is a classic of Chicago blues and was recorded by the Muddy Waters band that helped define the genre.
- Hoochie Coochie Man" in a variety of styles, making it one of the most interpreted Muddy Waters or Willie Dixon songs.
Background
- By 1954, Muddy Waters had been recording for Chess Records (and its Artistocrat predecessor) for seven years and chalked up a number of record chart hits.
- "By 1954, Muddy Waters charted a number of hits recording for Chess Records (and its Artistocrat predecessor) during the previous seven years." Or, better yet, you could say, "From 1947-1954, Muddy Waters charted a number of hits recording for Chess Records and its Artistocrat predecessor." Viriditas (talk) 01:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
- Palmer describes the song...
- Willie Dixon had been singing and playing bass with the Big Three Trio since 1946.[15] After the group disbanded in 1951, he began working for Chess Records.[16] There he served in several capacities, including as a recording session arranger and bassist.
- Dixon had been writing songs for years, but label co-owner Leonard Chess was slow to show interest in them.[17] However, in 1953, Chess used two songs that Dixon wrote: Little Walter recorded "Too Late"[18] and Eddie Boyd recorded "Third Degree",[19] which was Dixon's first composition to enter the record charts.
- "At Chess, Dixon wrote songs for years, but label co-owner Leonard Chess failed to show any interest. Finally, in 1953, Chess used two of Dixon's songs: "Too Late", recorded by Little Walter, and "Third Degree", recorded by Eddie Boyd. "Third Degree" became Dixon's first composition to enter the record charts." Viriditas (talk) 01:48, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- The term "hoochie coochie", with variations in the spelling, had been used in different contexts. Appearing the late 19th century, the hoochie coochie was a sexually provocative dance, similar to a belly dance.[21] Women performed it at salons, also called "hoochie coochies".[21] The dance was popular at carnivals and county fairs and was an attraction at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, although it was sometimes considered disreputable.[21]
- This section is sourced to a commercial website run by Steve Bekes. Since you already have sources for this information, why are you using the Bekes site? Is it leftover from an older version of this article? The footnotes of Inaba 2011 on p. 147 provide some additional source references. If you can source this information using other sources, that is preferable. Unless of course, you think Bekes is a good source for some reason. Do we know that this self-published, commercial website is accurate? Viriditas (talk) 02:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- This section looks really good, but again, as the Master of Brevity (M.B.) you left me wanting more with this statement: "It deals with the theme of superstition". If you can say more before you introduce the quote, that would be nice. Viriditas (talk) 22:36, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Composition and recording
- Not long after the success of "Mad Love", Dixon approached Leonard Chess with a song he wrote, "Hoochie Coochie Man". He mentioned that it was right for Muddy Waters and Chess responded, "well, if Muddy likes it, give it to him".
- What year? Not long after the success of "Mad Love" in 1953? This might read better like this: "Not long after the success of "Mad Love" in 1953, Dixon approached Leonard Chess with "Hoochie Coochie Man", a new song he felt was right for Muddy Waters. Chess responded, "if Muddy likes it, give it to him". Viriditas (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- Dixon encountered him in the men's room at the club..
- Placement of the File:Willie_Dixon.jpg image prevents the blockquote from indenting correctly. This can be solved if you move the image down, so that it floats (in edit mode) just above "By January 7, 1954..." Viriditas (talk) 08:39, 26 November 2014 (UTC)
- By January 7, 1954, the arrangement was sufficiently developed and Muddy Waters and his band entered the recording studio to record the song. His group for the recording session is considered the classic Chicago blues band; music critic Bill Janovitz describes them as "a who's who of bluesmen".
- "Hoochie Coochie Man" follows a sixteen-bar blues progression, which is an expansion of the well-known twelve-bar blues pattern.[11] The first four bars are doubled in length so the harmony remains on the tonic for eight bars or one-half of the sixteen bar progression.[14] Dixon explained that expanding twelve-bar blues was in response to amplification, which gave instruments more sustain.
- A bit too much reliance on quoting and not enough paraphrasing, but I think you're just under the limit so I'm marking it as resolved. In the future, focus more on paraphrasing and shorter quotes that cite the meat of the matter. Viriditas (talk) 22:51, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Lyrics and interpretation
- Can you paraphrase a bit more in the first paragraph? I feel like I'm the victim of a quote bomb. Viriditas (talk) 02:28, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- The fortune tellers would emphasize auspicious circumstances to enhance their remuneration, especially when doing readings for pregnant women.
- Dixon explained that the use of self-aggrandizing lyrics taps into a part of the audience's psyche, which he felt was a role in blues.
- Fixed some of the above. I'll add some to the closing comments. Viriditas (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Releases and charts
Influence and recognition
- Quote box attributed to Encyclopedia of the Blues
- The quote from Gordon 2002 on p. 142 was wrong, so I fixed it. Viriditas (talk) 03:37, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- Resolved after major copyedits.[1] Viriditas (talk) 04:09, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Recordings by other artists
Notes
- Citations
- Not all citations are functional. Please fix Dahl 1991 and Filene 2003. Viriditas (talk) 01:40, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- References
- As I asked in the previous review, is there a way to make the record album IDs functional links? For example, the reference to "Aldin, Mary Katherine (1994). One More Mile (CD booklet). Muddy Waters. MCA/Chess. CHD2-9348." Isn't there a way to make the CHD2-9348 link-out to the album? Viriditas (talk) 01:42, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
- Added OCLC numbers for albums (since these aren't listed on the albums themselves, I picked the most likely example from several different entries). BTW, there is an ID system for song recordings, the ISRC, but it doesn't appear accessible to the public. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Criteria
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. Has an appropriate reference section:
- B. Citations to reliable sources:
- Is Steve Bekes a reliable source?
- A. Has an appropriate reference section:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- A. Major aspects:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
- B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
- A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- After extensive copyedits by the nominator and a few by myself, I feel the article currently passes the GA criteria. I do have some suggestions for immediate improvement:
- Please investigate the appropriate formatting of the "Muddy Waters" stage name and determine if it should read "Waters" instead. I believe it should, but the current format is consistent, and therefore acceptable.
- Please review the current use of quotes in the "Composition and recording" and "Lyrics and interpretation" sections. I believe it is acceptable for GA, but further attempts to paraphrase will improve the flow of the prose and the overall narrative. Additionally, I found (and fixed) at least one instance of misquoting in the "Influence and recognition" section, so make sure your quotes are accurately cited.
- The "lyrics and interpretation" contains the sentence about "self-aggrandizing lyrics" that tap "into a part of the audience's psyche". Please see if you can improve this sentence to make it less ambiguous. Simplify if you can.
- Thanks for your good work. Viriditas (talk) 04:34, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
- After extensive copyedits by the nominator and a few by myself, I feel the article currently passes the GA criteria. I do have some suggestions for immediate improvement:
- Pass or Fail:
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |