Talk:Greta Thunberg/Archive 11

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Archive 11

Palestinian Support Controversy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Greta published an Instagram photo with Palestinian activists, including an octopus doll, without the southeast hint of condemning Hamas massacare. she eventually deleted it due to backlash Jazi Zilber (talk) 02:04, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Nice story. Are you hinting that it should be mentioned in this article? For starters, several reliable sources would be required. HiLo48 (talk) 02:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.foxnews.com/world/greta-thunberg-posts-deletes-free-palestine-post-pushback-completely-unaware

https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/completely-unaware-greta-thunberg-deletes-propalestinian-post-featuring-antisemitic-trope/news-story/12b41fae3251f63569df721b61eeef1d

https://www.politico.eu/article/greta-thunberg-calls-global-pro-palestinian-strike-gaza-genocide-israel-slam/

As with every public scandal, this has huge effect on how she's perceived. and about affiliations and judgements Jazi Zilber (talk) 02:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Calling it a public scandal suggests to me that your position on this may not be objective. Of those sources, the first two are right wing garbage. The third I know less about, but it's telling us Israel is unhappy about it. Sorry, but that's not news. Got any objective, independent sources? HiLo48 (talk) 04:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with HiLo48. This seems to me not to be significant enough to put on a wikipedia page, just because it enrages a group with certain political views. I see that Thatsnotmyname2020 already added "her apparent support for Gaza/Palestine" (16:05, 20 October 2023‎), I would suggest that this is removed. Editor07022019 (talk) 08:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Editor07022019 I did insert it because she used her usual Fridays protest to obviously make a statement / take a stand on the matter. The source I referenced is Newsweek. I added it because it is yet another major change in Thunberg's activism. As an adult, she is shifting from passive and legal protests to confrontational and illegal, and also from nonpolitical to political protests. I'd be willing to bet that Thunberg continues her escalatory activities. As for the octopus bruhaha, that is much to do about nothing. She stated she was unaware of its implications (it was not included in the sign she was holding), and then deleted the photo and reposted it without the octopus. The deletion / reposting indicates she has strong feelings on the matter. I suspect this will not be the last time she takes a stand on the conflict / war. That said, I could not care less if the consensus is that it be removed, but I do believe Thunberg will continue to weigh in on the matter and that sooner or later it will need to be a part of her Wikipage. ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 11:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Many public figures all over the world have taken part in pro-Israel and pro-Palestine rallies since this conflict began. Very few have had this fact added to their articles. There needs to be a very strong reason to add it to this article. HiLo48 (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

For a climate activist of her stature (arguably the face of the movement) to basically highjack her weekly climate protest to weigh in on the matter—and move from nonpolitical to political protesting—may not be a strong reason for inclusion, but it is a diametric shift in her activities and therefore noteworthy. ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

You need to cite a reliable source that states anything like that, otherwise it's just you thinking that (ie original research/interepretation). DonQuixote (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Greta's protests were nonpolitical? That'll be news to everyone. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

When were Greta's protests concerning climate change ever non-political? Not only were they politicised by the media and politicians, the climate itself is a political issue. I also feel I have to question your intentions with the use of such a term as "hijacking" in reference to her decision to speak on a major conflict and humanitarian crisis. Sisuvia (talk) 17:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm.... it's always entertaining visiting "talk" pages. ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Interesting take. I don't think the Friday school strike for climate was ever "legal", it was civil disobedience. But yes, if she is now consistently protesting against the persecution of Palestinians alongside her environmental work, it should probably have a mention provided it is not overstated. WaggersTALK 12:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Your point that some of Thunberg's activities were not legal but were acts of civil disobedience is valid. She used to backdown to avoid being criminally charged. It appears, as an adult, Thunberg is going to push the envelope until it breaks. I wonder if she is laying the groundwork to become an incarcerated martyr. I suspect imprisoning her would reignite the movement to its previous plateau. ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 00:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

in the german article this subject is much more detailed (we are a little bit more aware of antisemitism as it seems (for reasons) - but our english is bad). here is a google translate, maybe someone wants to add in in the article:

After Hamas' terrorist attack on Israel in 2023 and Israel's subsequent military response in the Gaza Strip, Thunberg shared on Instagram a call from the Palestine Speaks organization for a global strike to take a stand “against the genocide in Gaza and the repressive terror of many Western states .” all those who show solidarity with Palestine and act accordingly.”[118] Palestine Speaks had previously described Hamas’ attack on cities in Israel as a “day to be proud of.”[119] Thunberg also shared a photo of herself with three other activists holding a "Stand with Gaza" sign and wrote: "Today we strike in solidarity with Palestine and Gaza." The world must raise its voice and demand an immediate ceasefire , demanding justice and freedom for the Palestinians and all affected civilians."[120] A stuffed octopus depicted in the photo was cut out of the picture by Thunberg after it was criticized as an anti-Semitic symbol.[121] According to Thunberg, the plush toy is “a tool commonly used by autistic people to express emotions.” In the description of the picture, Thunberg linked to Palestine accounts that trivialized or applauded Hamas terrorism.[122]

The Baden-Württemberg anti-Semitism commissioner Michael Blume attested to Thunberg's dualistic and anti-Semitic worldview: "Anyone who, as an adult, after severe criticism, continues to affirm their solidarity with an anti-Semitic and mass-murdering terror campaign, is a clear commitment to anti-Semitism."[123] The Green member of the Bundestag Marcel Emmerich said of Thunberg's joint call: "Such calls for solidarity are in reality solidarity with the terrible terror of Hamas."[124] claimed Sascha Lobo On Track The Israeli Ministry of Education decided to remove all mentions of Thunberg from the curriculum.[126]

Thunberg said she and her colleagues “are of course against any kind of discrimination and condemn anti-Semitism in all forms and manifestations.” [125] Thunberg later deleted the redirect to the Palestine Speaks organization and made it clear that she naturally condemned the Hamas attack.[127]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg#Israelkritik_und_Antisemitismusvorw%C3%BCrfe Fraxs (talk) 08:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-removes-greta-thunberg-curriculum-over-pro-palestinian-message-1837068 the Israeli Ministry of Education said that it plans to remove any reference of environmental activist Greta Thunberg from school materials after the young Swedish activist posted a pro-Palestinian message on social media. 79.117.109.94 (talk) 20:02, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, they would, wouldn't they? That news sadly says a lot more about the Israeli Ministry of Education than it does about Thunberg. HiLo48 (talk) 00:47, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it says the Israel ministry of education is opposed to antisemitism. Anyway, this is notable enough and should be added. 2601:18C:9001:9B10:DD70:8DD4:95B1:33DC (talk) 18:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Loads of people with Wikipedia articles on them have expressed an opinion on the current conflict, just like they talk about all sorts of other global current events as and when they happen. We don't need to document every single opinion they all give. Nothing Thurnberg has said in supporting a peaceful resolution to the conflict and freedom for Palestinians, while at the same time condemning antisemitism along with any other form of discrimination, is particularly remarkable or noteworthy.

The Israeli Ministry of Education's extreme (over)-reaction might be worthy of note, but I think that probably belongs at the Ministry of Education (Israel) article. WaggersTALK 11:20, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Greta Thunberg's statements on Palestine, some of which have (unfortunately) included some antisemitic references have been rather extensively covered in Swedish media (Thunberg is Swedish). The wider problem here, though, is that the article reads like a fan page, full of praise and hardly any mention about controversies. The row around antisemitism is just the latest example. Jeppiz (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Is there a Swedish reliable source that says her comments were antisemitic? HiLo48 (talk) 06:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Ditto . . . ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I thought I'd state the obvious . . . being pro-something does not necessarily in itself make one anti-something else. Let's bear that in mind as we move forward. I have searched for an anti-Israeli statement by Thunberg and thus far have came up empty. Her statements are not anti-Semitic in nature. ThatsNotMyName2020 (talk) 01:59, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Even other climate activists like Luisa Neubauer [1] and politicians from Green parties [2] criticise what happened.--Hannelsen (talk) 12:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

why did you delete my comments @ThatsNotMyName2020? Fraxs (talk) 08:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Since critical edits are constantly being deleted here, I no longer try to revise the article but refer again to the German article, where it is mentioned that Thunberg shared pro-Hamas accounts, her appearance in Amsterdam is mentioned and her commitment is analyzed by anti-Semitism researchers . This article is incredibly trivializing Fraxs (talk) 08:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a talk page for discussion (not an actual Wikipedia article) yet it seems like even here antisemitsm cannot be addressed when Greta Thunberg is involved.

Yesterday she was on stage with and solidarized with Sara Rachdan, who is a supporter of terrorsim against Israel and is also known for trivializing the holocaust as can be seen in this thread on X: https://twitter.com/fpiatov/status/1724017677792858541 2A02:810D:B1BF:F5AB:B1B7:671C:A4CA:A192 (talk) 12:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This is all very tenuous and becoming quite tedious. Twitter is not a reliable source. If you have a reliable source documenting Greta herself saying something that is unequivocally anti-Semitic - as opposed to merely supporting Palestine and criticising the Israeli government's decisions - then do share it. Otherwise this just looks like you're scrabbling around trying to find evidence to support what is a fairly libellous assertion for which, as far as we can tell, no hard evidence exists. Sharing a stage with someone doesn't equate to agreeing with or endorsing their opinions. WaggersTALK 14:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Choose one:

https://taz.de/Kritik-an-Greta-Thunberg/!5969585/

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/greta-thunberg-klimademo-fridays-for-future-sara-rachdan-1.6302464

https://www.br.de/nachrichten/deutschland-welt/scharfe-kritik-an-greta-thunberg-nach-pro-palaestina-auftritt,TvV1jea

https://www.fr.de/politik/greta-thunberg-nahost-konflikt-kommentar-fridays-for-future-braucht-neue-fuehrungsfigur-92671094.html

https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gruene-klimaaktivisten-diplomaten-distanzieren-sich-von-greta-thunberg-100.html

https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/politik-inland/sie-verharmlost-sogar-den-holocaust-greta-thunbergs-radikalste-terror-freundin-86077500.bild.html 2A02:810D:B1BF:F5AB:B1B7:671C:A4CA:A192 (talk) 18:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I've read all of the articles you've linked for our convenience. Unsurprisingly, nothing in any of them have evidence of her saying anything anti-semitic. Sisuvia (talk) 18:08, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Saying with certainty that she is an anti-semite is against talk page guidelines and I have removed some of those edits from the talk page history. Discussing anti-semitism by, say, pointing out a tenuous connection like this, is allowed here, but Waggers responded to that appropriately. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

"Baden-Württemberg's anti-Semitism commissioner, Michael Blume, attested to Thunberg's dualistic and anti-Semitic worldview: "Anyone who, as an adult, repeats solidarity with an anti-Semitic and mass-murdering terror campaign with little change after severe criticism is making a clear commitment to anti-Semitism." The anti-Semitism researcher Juliane Wetzel said Thunberg faced accusations of anti-Semitism after she shared calls from Palestinian support groups denying Israel's right to exist. According to the extremism researcher Armin Pfahl-Traughber, such “statements by well-known public figures […] enhance such anti-Semitic and conspiracy ideological distortions.” This could be a danger, especially for students active at FFF. A credible commitment to climate protection suffers “from Hamas apologia”."

Translation from the german article Fraxs (talk) 17:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Greta's "solidarity" has been with Palestine, not with Hamas or its alleged "anti-semitic and mass-murdering terror campaign", unless I am misunderstanding all her prior statements? Furthermore, Blume himself has been accused of anti-semitism. Julian Wetzel only reiterates that Greta has faced accusations of anti-semitism, not that she is anti-semitic. Similarly, Pfal-Traughber does not say she is anti-semitic, only that statements by public figures such as her could enhance anti-semitic conspiracies, and I personally don't think that alone warrants inclusion into the article. Sisuvia (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

fascinating how fundamental different the discurs in germany and other countries is. i give up here and go back where poeple to nit trivilaze the fact that thunberg eather does not call hamas a terrorist organization nor says a Single wird about the victims of the biggest massmurderer on jews since auschwitz. Schande über euch! nie wieder Fraxs (talk) 18:31, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Fraxs she has already come out and condemned the October 7th massacre and violence in general. Furthermore, the one conducting a mass bombing campaign against civilians right now is Israel, therefore I fail to see what Greta labelling Hamas a terrorist organisation achieves. That even now you choose to solely focus on Oct 7th when more than twice the number of Palestinians have since been killed in Gaza is perplexing. Do you not think Palestinian lives are worth as much as Israeli ones? Sisuvia (talk) 12:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

This discussion risks going way off topic. It has been open for 24 days and there's a fairly clear consensus that there's nothing noteworthy (as distinct from notable) to add to the article. Time to close it down before it gets out of hand. WaggersTALK 13:08, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deletion of Talk Page

I manually reverted the deletion of this entire talk page by either user Hannelsen or Fraxs. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 22:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

why? Fraxs (talk) 08:47, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Because someone deleted the entire talk page, so I reverted it, and, as you mentioned on my talk page, your entry inadvertently got lost in the shuffle. Just repost your last comment. . . That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 11:28, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The only person who removed anything was obviously you. [3] --Hannelsen (talk) 17:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Right before this change with a correct closing ref tag by User:Fraxs made most parts of the talk page disappear (and made it look like he would have written the very first post on this page) because with these changes someone used the wrong closing ref tag. (<ref/> instead of </ref>) I fixed this problem. So the post could be added again if the discussion wouldn't have been closed by someone who actually participated in the very same discussion. (So much about a neutral point of view.) --Hannelsen (talk) 18:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Criticism by other climate activists and Green politicians

If Luisa Neubauer is notable enough to be called one of Thunberg's "fellow climate activists" in this very article, then it should be added that Thunberg is criticised by her (former?) fellow climate activist. [4] Criticism by politicians who support climate activism should be notable as well. [5] Hannelsen (talk) 19:26, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Non paywall sources would be helpful to readers and beneficial for your input. Additionally, since this is an English language Wiki page, English sources would be useful too. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 23:44, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Useful, but not required. At the very least, we'd need to see what's actually been said via translations at the least. What little I can find, this article mentions that there's disagreement, but no "criticism' of Thunberg's stance is mentioned. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:57, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I used "helpful, beneficial, useful" which imply not required. Thank you for making that crystal clear, and for pointing out that there's a disagreement—not criticism—within the Fridays For Future movement. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 13:10, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Crush Zionism

she was chanting "crush zionism" - but the edit was deleted by user that´s not my name. there are many sources (and videos), and there is no doubt that she did that.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/climate-activist-thunberg-flogged-for-crush-zionism-chant/ https://nationalpost.com/news/world/greta-thunberg-chants-crush-zionism-outside-israeli-embassy-in-stockholm 83.175.89.104 (talk) 21:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Your point being? Anti-Zionism is nothing new, particularly when covering the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of the Gaza Strip. Dimadick (talk) 22:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I removed them for the reasons I stated: "removed entries of Thunberg chanting “Krossa Sionismen” (“Crush Zionism”) due to either no citation or citing a non-independent / non-reliable source. Currently, claims of Thunberg chanting “Krossa Sionismen” is not being reported by any reputable, independent source." That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 00:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

there are lot of independent sources. Why do you delete critical edits all the time? the only edits you do is on the grata thunberg article, there is celarly a problem with pov in this article.

she declared herseld an anti-zionist, why should this not be in this article? 83.175.89.104 (talk) 08:19, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't delete critical edits, nor any edits using independent, reliable sources. Please provide a citation from Reuters, the AP, the BBC, etc.; I have not been able to find one. Also, FOX News has not referenced Thunberg chanting “Krossa Sionismen” (“Crush Zionism”), which, if the story had merit, most certainly would not have ignored it. Multiple (if not all) reliable, independent sources would have published articles if there was merit to the story. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 16:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I have been following the reorientation of a large chunk of the youth climate movement towards Palestine quite closely — mostly in The Guardian and Der Spiegel. And have not seen anything of this ilk reported. I would take a fair guess Der Spiegel would cover such chants if it had access to clear evidence and considered publication to be in the public interest. FWIW. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 17:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Media coverage of pro-Palestine position by Thunberg

Three references I recently added to the main article were removed. I am not suggesting that edit was inappropriate. But it is worth recording these now omitted sources on the talk page — in case they prove useful for background in the future.

References

I should add that Der Spiegel and The Guardian are generally considered substantial sources. Hope this helps. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you . . . these will surely be beneficial as Fridays for Future continues evolving and its chapters diverge. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 22:45, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Hypocrisy

The page states, "France 24 reported that several crew would fly to New York to sail the yacht back to Europe." What is not stated is the hypocrisy of this sailing. Facts stated in this article should be included: ""Greta Thunberg sails across the Atlantic for climate reasons instead of flying. For the return transfer of the yacht, however, a crew of 5 flies from Europe to the USA and the skipper himself flies back. Overall, the action, therefore, causes more CO2 emissions than if Thunberg had flown with her father"

https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/environment/atlantic-flights-for-greta-would-have-generated-less-co2-than-her-sailing/?fbclid=IwAR2Mue7r05K0U_guQj48F9aoc5BgHDE2FAZMZ75p0A1i2Z-OlUIxridEOC8 2603:9008:1B01:CD0F:6C28:2071:83DC:41E5 (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Wordpress is not considered a reliable source (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources). DonQuixote (talk) 05:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Wow! Breath deep, relax, chill. I bet you also believe that the article ought to report that Thunberg has been flatulent, releasing gas into the atmosphere in direct conflict with her stance that releasing gas into the atmosphere is causing global warming. Therefore she is a hypocrite and should be ignored. That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 15:22, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

It's the constant Swedish belching that gets me. Give her Bovaer®, I say! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Hmm That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 12:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

"Overall, the action, therefore, causes more CO2 emissions than if Thunberg had flown with her father" is original research and likely to be untrue. A large commercial transatlantic aeroplane is going to produce roughly the same emissions for carrying five passengers as for carrying two. These contrived and increasingly desperate attempts to add unnecessary criticism to this article are just bizarre.

The page already mentions the report of the flight. Our policy is to take a neutral point of view. Our readers are intelligent enough to decide for themselves whether that makes Thunberg a hypocrite. We include facts, not opinions. WaggersTALK 16:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Well said @Waggers . . . That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 12:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thunberg claims

"Thunberg received no money from the company and terminated her volunteer advisor role with WDHT once she realized they were making money from her name." - from Greta's facebook post. so we are just taking her words as the truth now? shouldn't it say she "claims" she received no money until she shows a respected journalist her finances and they report on it? 27.125.250.174 (talk) 10:22, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Good point, thank you. Change made to reflect it is her contention. I could not find an independents source (but I didn't put much time into searching). That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 04:20, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Saying that someone claims something violates WP:CLAIM. The word is "said". Johnuniq (talk) 05:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

 Fixed - I went with "stated" as, to be a bit pedantic, "said" implies verbal communication and this was written. WaggersTALK 10:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

That's Not My Name 2020 (talk) 12:51, 12 December 2023 (UTC)