Talk:Green Revolution/Archive 1

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Anti-Malthusian Bias?

The section on "Malthusian criticism" spends most of its time criticizing the theory, not presenting it in a neutral encyclopedic tone with no weasel words. Ehrlich himself has said that when he wrote The Population Bomb the fruits of the Green Revolution had not yet come to pass and he was talking about "present conditions". I don't feel this section is appropriate, since by grouping Ehrlich in with "Malthusians" it seems mostly concerned with defending GR against any criticism that food supplies are finite. This seems a bit silly considering our history, and the specific example used; how perilous a situation India was in at the time, and in several degrees more ominous, still remains to this day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.104.105.182 (talk) 00:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The references to Malthus here are written by someone who has never read Malthus. So nothing unusual there.109.158.128.2 (talk) 13:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Observation

Damn, I've never seen an article with such a bad infestation of the [citation needed] weevils. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.210.216.191 (talk) 19:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

What about some pictures in this article? Seems like just some pictures of grain would liven it up a bit.

Liked Anjali bhoi (talk) 15:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Edit explanation

I removed this line from the intro:

"The Green Revolution is sometimes mis-interpreted to apply to present times; in fact, many regions of the world peaked in food prooduction in the period 1980 to 1995 and are presently in decline, since desertification and critical water supplies, in part or wholly caused by the Green Revolution, have become limiting factors in a number of world regions."

It lacks citation and as is specific enough to not belong in the introduction.

I also removed the section on sustainability because it was a bunch of questions raised by an anonymous third person rather than statements about the sustainability of the Green Revolution.

Justin

Soil

Just wondering why there are no mentions about the fact that soil using GR techniques seems to be degrading over time. Check out http://livingheritage.org/green-revolution.htm and ://www.foodfirst.org/media/opeds/2000/4-greenrev.html. Are they wrong?

RESPONSE: yes, they're wrong. It's a difficult thing to investigate, but one great book on this is: http://www.google.com/search?q=peter+lindert+shifting+ground Wmasters 16:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)Wmasters

Graph

This graph has no numbers! It is meaningless. Someone should fix it.

-- In fact, it is worse than meaningless. It could show a tenfold increase or a 10 per cent increase. And it is a sign of the times that such a graph will then get picked up by others and included in their own "scholarly" treatises. (As has already happened.) It should be removed. Rosecrans 19:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"violet"?

Regarding edit 123843923 by Greenuprising, the quote in the second paragraph currently says, "It is not a violet Red Revolution...". It seems to me that this should say "It is not a violent Red Revolution...", but I could only find one such reference to that form on Google.

Ken g6 18:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

HYV versus hybrids

Removed this section from Technologies "One criticism of HYVs is that they were developed as F1 hybrids, meaning they need to be purchased by a farmer every season rather than saved from previous seasons, thus increasing a farmer’s cost of production.". It's misleading. The green revolution "HYVs" were not hybrids (not in the sense that seed must be purchased each year). IR8 is an inbred line derived from the mentioned cross, but it breeds true season after season, so seed can be saved and used for subsequent plantings.

Would it be right to say that such breeding reduces the ability of a resultant crop to be raised true from last year's seed? 173.30.250.62 (talk) 15:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No, that would not be true, no more than the non-selected crops would be. Of course, a farmer could make poor choices in selecting seed to keep, but that would not be a reflection on the quality of the crop originally planted. Kerani (talk) 18:07, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Cloned?

I edited this line for readability. The original version was quite confusing. Can someone with the right expertise please check that this is factually correct? The original version claims that the genes were "cloned and identified", so this is what I've put down, but now I'm wondering if they actually just meant "isolated and subsequently bred for".

"With advances in molecular genetics, the mutant genes responsible for reduced height(rht), gibberellin insensitive (gai1) and slender rice (slr1) in Arabidopsis and rice were identified as cellular signaling components gibberellic acid (a phytohormone involved in regulating stem growth via its effect on cell division) and subsequently cloned."

'Cloning' is the correct term for what you call 'isolation'. The genes were bred for BEFORE they were identified and cloned. Actually, the phenotype (physical trait) was bred for, the genes causing the phenotype were unknown. In the sense used here, cloning means isolating the gene - this is usually done by inserting the gene into a bacterial vector. Once in the vector it can be copied and characterised using various molecular techniques (eg, sequencing). This is the process of 'cloning' (copying) a gene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.86.71.20 (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Graph removal

I am removing the graph of World Production (see above) from this page due to the fact that its lack of numbers renders it meaningless--and perhaps very misleading. The citation also does not take you to the source of the graph. This issue was brought up some time ago by a couple of us and, given the lack of discussion, I would assume the community assents to its removal. Rosecrans 14:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Section removal

Someone undid the removal of the lengthy essay previously found at the bottom of this article. My reasons for removing it are many.

To start with, the section drew conclusions from non-existant data. For instance: It is being said that genetic erosion coupled with genetic pollution is destroying that needed unique genetic base thereby creating an unforeseen hidden crisis which will result in a severe threat to our food security for the future This statement cannot be demonstrated, any more than the claim "the sun will not rise next sunday". The wiki encodes our current knowledge, not what the author believes that will be at some future time.

Then it adds an entire section on GMO, but there is absolutely nothing in this article about GMOs. The cultivars being discussed here are not GMO, and including this section seriously clouds the issue, implying that the HYV's are GMO, which they simply are not. Nevertheless, it goes on to make several unsupported claims about GMO "pollution" in grasses, using weasle words no less.

Adding to my concern was that all of the references come from various eco-groups. There's nothing wrong with this, per-se, but it displays a complete lack of balance. Had this section included counterarguments, fine, but it didn't, and is NPOV by definition.

And then to add to it all, what the heck is with that section title?

Re-inclusion of a version not seriously modified to address these concerns will be RVed. If you wish to see this section in the article, you need to explain why it has to be separate -- there's already sections covering most of this -- and include a much more balanced view with more refs from mainstream sources.

Maury 21:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

ideological bias

There is a great deal of ideological bias in this article. The green revolution was one of the greatest achievements of humankind, yet the bulk of this article is devoted to criticism of it, much of it misinformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.86.71.20 (talk) 04:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I highly disagree with statement. I find that there is a strong ideological bias for the Green Revolution. The criticism that is offered is very valid, but is much too easily countered. Vandana Shiva wrote extensively about the Green Revolution in her book The Violence of the Green Revolution: Third World Agriculture, Ecology and Politics. This article is severly lacking in that it lacks input from a writer who has dedicated so much effort into studying the Green Revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.241.95 (talk) 18:16, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the disagreement, the balance of the article is towards what is important to most people, while covering the basic info well. 173.30.250.62 (talk) 15:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the article is too positive for the Green Revolution. (The GR helped to increase the crops yields per square acre, but it did NOT help countries to combat famine or to become self-sustaining). In the introduction is suggested that Mexico became a net exporter in 1964. This is only partially true. There was indeed a net export from 1965 until 1970, but it was so little that it can be neglected. From 1970 on, it turned again into a net importer (both for wheat AND maiz, mainly from the USA) and hasn't ceased to be an importer since then. See the FAO statistics! (few months ago I added that source, but it has been deleted again). The example of Mexico in the introduction should be deleted or explained better. A very good review of the GR, including both praise and criticism, appeared in Nature http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v402/n6761supp/full/402c55a0.html To the contrary, Vandana Shiva, although she has some interesting viewpoints, is not a neutral source I think. She is more activist than researcher. Ian.xerl (talk) 09:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

removal of a chunk of the food security section?

Why was the alternative interpretations of food security removed? it was imperfect and it's placement would probably have better in the criticisms section, but now the norman borloug quote doesn't make sense. anyway, i'm going to put it back in under the criticism section. it's amusing at the least.

anyway, i know this article is a mess overall, but it is better than it was last week. hopefully we can gradually make it better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.170.125.190 (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

what happened to the history section?

why was the history section removed? if there are no objections, i'm going to put it back in.

129.170.125.190 (talk) 15:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Environmental Impact

I think that the environmental impact section needs to be expanded. Additions could include soil nutrient depletion and soil erosion as a result of monoculture. Maybe some more about water use and efficiency of irrigation? I'm no expert, but I really think a lot could be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.97.85 (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it is important to also point out the environmental consequences animals faced. It may be wise to include the destruction of certain animal habitats and the decreased biodiversity.Stephanienashed (talk) 23:46, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

This article needs comparative pictures of the pre revolution and post revolution crops

Images would be a big improvement in understanding. Avram Primack (talk) 18:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, some comparative imagery would be nice, especially for the Environmental Impact section. Perhaps the graphs already posted into the article can get an upgrade as well? Double graphs with more clearly defined axis labels would be more effective, easier to read, and generally more informative overall. --Catherine Zhou (talk) 06:19, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Removal of 'medieval Green Revolution' disambig

I have removed the disambig link for 'medieval Green Revolution'. This term is not widely used, and may be misleading. Though it appears in an early 1980s paper by A. M. Watson, it does not appear to have current use in valid or relevant sources.

Dialectric (talk) 01:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC) According the research that I have been doing on the Green Revolution, Pakistan was one of the main countries involved. It was around the same time as India's. However, in this entire article, Pakistan is not even mentioned one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.120.101.183 (talk) 06:09, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

What does "consensus" mean?

Could please someone explain what is meant by the following sentence in the introductory paragraph:

"The consensus of some agronomists is that the Green Revolution has allowed food production to keep pace with worldwide population growth."

As I use the term, either this really is a consensus opinion, in which case it should be shared by most agronomists (this is a necessary but not sufficient condition!), or it is the opinion of some agronomists. Therefore, I find that the sentence contradictory.

Another question: If we talk about scientists in general (as opposed to agronoms), the statements by the academies of sciences, coordinated through their InterAcademy Panel (IAP) could be considered as a kind of "official consensus". In the IAP statement on population growth from 1994, the academies claim the following:

"In the last decade food production from both land and sea declined relative to world population growth."

(However, the development since then should be more relevant.) If there are any scientists, agronoms or others, who have criticised this IAP statement explicitly, I'd like to get a reference, in order to include it in the article on the statement. JoergenB (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

[[File:Example.jpg75 7]]4197 '[\=['\=[-o-0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.125.191.236 (talk) 08:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Identify and explain two arguments in praise of the changes brought about by the Green Revolution.

???????????????????????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.243.105.156 (talk) 01:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with all the ????????????? This talk section seems to be asking for 2 positive arguments "for" the green revolution, rather than looking for specific information missing from that article. Remove from talk page? 173.30.250.62 (talk) 15:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Introduction is biased - the example of Mexico is misleading!

The sentence in the introduction that states that Mexico became self-sustaining and net exporter after 1964 is misleading. It is true that yields increased and that from 1965-1969 Mexico was a net exporter. But those exports were very small and from 1970 on Mexico became again a major importer of both maize and wheat (mainly from the US). This is clear from FAO data. Maybe this graph (showing Mexico's import, export and consumption of wheat and maize, based on FAO data) should be included in the criticism section. Ian.xerl (talk) 10:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge

Green revolution and cancer should be merged into this article, as it doesn't need to be an article of its own. — Hex (❝?!❞) 11:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. The topic is an interesting, albeit comparatively minor compared to other aspects of the GR, issue, and should be placed within the larger article. ~ Amory (talk) 10:28, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Great idea! I think that after reading through both articles that both are very, very similar, and that it would be a good idea to put the info in one place for easier access and less confusion. (Proud Gamer (talk) 23:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

Oppose, in principle, I think... which I know is not very strong opposition! I mean that if the Green Revolution was the major aritcle it should be, then a section on all the possible dissadvantages, including health questions, would be a section of it. The GR should be a big page, where millions of tons of food, millions of peoples lives, many naitons prosperity etc. are discussed and a wide range of substantial examples are given. Then, on that scale, if there is enough information about specifically cancer, and the Green Revolution, then a seperate page on the subject would help ensure that the page size for Green Revolution does not get out of hand. I think that the Green Revolution page as it stands should not have a whole lot of information about just cancer issues merged in with it, as if that was half of what the GR is about. What is practicle in the here and now, though? I'm not so sure.

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done the merge, a section on health impact has more scope and can be spun off into its own article in the future. AniRaptor2001 (talk) 10:17, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

New green revolution

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved. Jafeluv (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Green Revolution → 1945 Agriculture improvement — A remark on the new green revolution (see http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/06/cheap-food/bourne-text/1 ) should be made. Also, please add in intro that the "green" revolution doesnt cover the meaning of green as it is today (also mentioned in latter article) I also propose to rename the article to 1945 Agriculture improvement — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.13.181 (talk) 09:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Izzedine (talk) 12:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose - Green Revolution is the correct name for this movement as it is the proper name for this movement, and seeing as how I have never heard of it as being reffered to under any other name i think it meets WP:COMMONAME criteria. The article you have provided does not seem to indicate another set of agricultural improvements independently known as "The Green Revolution" are underway; Rather it draws on the popularity of the term for 20th century movement and indicates that the world population is in need of something similar. This source refers to the 20th century movement by name as "The Green Revolution" so it cannot be seen as contesting this title. As for the proposed retitle it is somewhat inaccurate. It indicates these changes all occured rapidly in 1945 when in fact the events we identify as "The Green Revolution" occured through the entire middle and into the later 20th century. As stated before "Green Revolution" is the common name for this topic and any other title would only confuse and fluster users attempting to look it up. Solid State Survivor (talk) 07:33, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
Oppose - agree with above by SSS --Karl.brown (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Another set of agricultural improvements ARE underway. Read trough the entire article, not just page 1. I however do agree that the name wasnt completely OK, it should be 1945-1970 Agricultural improvement (or 1945-2015 Agricultural improvement?); not sure, this document indicates the first. NGM article stated something else I believe

As was said earlier Green Revolution is clearly the common name. If future events cause something else to become the common name we can change it but not before. Neither of the names you mention are good choices.--76.71.215.121 (talk) 20:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Jfeldman's purge

Almost the whole talk page was deleted (without archiving) by User:Jfeldman (Justin) in March, 2010, with the following motivation:

Purge

I cleared most of this discussion page as many of the comments were old and also because I feel that this article needs a major rewrite. I basically cleared this article and rewrote it a few years ago and it has deteriorated since. I will try to contribute little by little but don't currently have the time. Please help redo this article, but take care to avoid the issues that plague the current article:

- While there is no shortage of literature lauding the Green Revolution as an unequivocal 'success' that prevented mass famine, this is not the only point of view that exists and these statements do not necessarily cite scientific data (except perhaps through national grain yield figures). An article that complies with NPOV must take this into account. The heading "Indian Successes" does not comply with NPOV.

- Critiques of the Green Revolution should not be general critiques of industrial agriculture. This article is not the place for that. We should stick to literature that has specifically critiqued the Green Revolution and its effects.

- Cite sources, and try to use decent sources, i.e. not a random PowerPoint presentation on someone's website.

This is an important article and I think we can do good things with it!

Justin (talk)

This is unacceptable. Justin has the full right to criticise criticism he considers badly sourced; but not to eliminate that criticism. To the extent that the discussion is old and no longer relevant, it may be archived, with a clear and visible reference to the archive. I therefore reverted his removal. JoergenB (talk) 18:50, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Environmental Impact Section

One part of that has no sources and has been tagged as such since 2008. That's really shameful, considering the section is one of import, and it would be a shame to have to delete it (per Wikipedia's policy of not being a publisher of original thought). It seems someone mentions Pfieffer as a quote, perhaps they can be properly referenced instead? Peter Deer (talk) 06:46, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Jafeluv (talk) 09:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Green Revolution (agriculture) → Green Revolution — To restore the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC after it was moved here a few days ago. The "Green Revolution" is a major change in human history, and is linked by hundreds of articles. The only other contender is the recent Green Revolution (Iran), which is one of many names for the 2009–2010 Iranian election protests given by its supporters. JaGa^talk 05:37, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Support per nom. Mhiji (talk) 18:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

erosion

Can anyone with knowledge about this add some information about erosion and loss of areable land. This would interest me and other readers a lot I think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vanbruystelghem (talk • contribs) 10:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Article needs to talk about soil conservation

The article needs to say whether Soil conservation techniques, including Contour plowing were part of the Green Revolution. And if possible, why or why not. If not, when and where they were advocated before or after? Lentower (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it would be interesting to note the affects of crop dusting on individuals living in these areas. Things were green, er, maybe than they should have been? I spent my first 10 years in a farming community in the late 50's and all through the 60's. I used to watch the crop dusting planes, and I still remember the smell. I'm fine. Just that I have an allergy problem. I'm allergic to just about every pollen, tree, and grass there is. I always wondered if it was related to the dust cropping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChooChooXP (talk • contribs) 21:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

punjab + sikkim

sorry to the editors adding the information on punjab and sikkim. It seems interesting and well sourced, but this is simply not the right article for it. The level of detail given is not manageable in an overview article such as this. It could go in Agriculture in India or a sub-article, but the information as presented gives undue weight to the specifics of agricultural development in Sikkim and Punjab. If it could be distilled or made more universal it could be a valuable addition to the article. As it stands it threatens to overwhelm the article. Thanks for your help anyway, sorry to seem ungrateful. Peregrine981 (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I have also found the article Green Revolution in India which would seem to be an ideal home for the info. Peregrine981 (talk) 22:05, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Lock the page

It's getting messed up, likely by anti-science people.

Why does pesticides and cancer start "He he he."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.165.82 (talk) 09:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The "New" Green Revolution

I added a new section, with following text:

Although the Green Revolution has been able to improve agricultural output in many regions, there was and is still room for improvement. As a result, many organizations continue to invent new ways of how to improve on the techniques allready used in the Green Revolution. Frequently quoted inventions are the System of Rice Intensification^[1], MutMap^[2], genetic improvements in carp and tilapia,,^[3] agroecology^[4] ...

I'm thinking however that we need to mention the discarding of animal husbandry as well, see Vegan_organic_gardening, or at least mention that keeping animals for their flesh can only occur in a integrated approach, such as with Integrated multi-trophic aquaculture, and Integrated Rice and Duck Farming^[5]

KVDP (talk) 12:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution. As for "eliminating animal husbandry" you were correct to leave that out. Unlike the things you did discuss, eliminating animal husbandry is not an active, actual program of any major development body. It is most certainly a goal of many activists, but Wikipedia is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS - we describe what is. Jytdog (talk) 12:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Red Revolution?

Red revolution is a social revolution and has no place here to compare with green revolution. Practices of the Soviet production can be discussed though in comparison with capitalist countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagr7 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Strampelli

Although the term ‘Green Revolution’ was coined in 1968 by USAID’s Administrators taking into account experiments in Mexico led by Norman Borlaug since 1943, it’s an acknowledged fact that its scientific foundations had already been laid decades before. From 1904 to world war II Nazareno Strampelli created a true ‘revolution’ in plant breeding doubling Italian wheat production. Borlaug’s innovative approach was in fact based on the work of Strampelli, who thirty years before the Americans, imposed and followed a path that originated experimental wheat varieties that made miracles to Italy at the turn of the two world wars. That miracle has since been labeled “Battle of Grains”.

[...] “Some of Strampelli's kinds of wheat, such as Mentana, Ardito and San Pastore, were used as parents in the breeding programs of several countries [Russia, Canada, United States, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, etc] after the Second World War; they also had a key role in the first phase of Norman Borlaug's Green Revolution, being instrumental in the development of the high-yielding varieties” [...] S. Salvi, O. Porfiri and S. Ceccarelli.

Even though he was clearly the forerunner of the Green Revolution and Bourlag’s programs were undoubtedly based on his studies I can’t find a single mention for Strampelli and his work. Regards. In Ratio Veritas (talk) 19:22, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

There are several sources that explain Strampelli's contribution to the Green Revolution. This one here (http://www.dista.unibo.it/doublehelix/proceedings/SECTION_I/HELIX%20pp%20053-075.pdf) acknowledges a great deal of it. Regards. In Ratio Veritas (talk) 13:47, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

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3rd World Economic Sovereignty - questionable content and over reliance.

Hello all, relatively unskilled editor here so apologies in advance if I don't realize something. Just inform so I can fix it up when I'm editing later articles.

Regarding this section, I have a few questions and points to highlight.

Firstly, should the title remain under the heading of '3rd world' or should it be supplemented with 'Developing Nations', or any more appropriate term?

Secondly, it's regarding the article itself. Generally, it seems to be written in a tone not consistent with what I've read across some 'better' Wikipedia articles, which I shall highlight.

"A case study is found in India, where farmers are buying Monsanto BT cotton seeds -- sold on the idea that these seeds produced 'natural insecticides'."

Firstly, I feel that the linking to Monsanto and describing somewhat vaguely 'Bt cotton seeds' as seeds 'sold on the idea', is somewhat misleading, only implying that it works and placing a suspicion of whether it really does manufacture Bt toxin, which it's reassured that it does. Furthermore, that last line seems to implicate to me that it's suggesting that Bt toxin is not effective in its goals, but that may just be my interpretation. Reworded the segment, removing [Monsanto] and linking to Bacillus thuringiensis.

"In reality, they need to still pay for expensive pesticides and irrigation systems, needing to borrow from money lenders to finance their expensive change from traditional seed varieties."

Loose words, it seems. Expensive pesticides? Where's the evidence that it's expensive to the farmers, all that's cited is a documentary which seems to be citing anecdotal evidence, and I feel that had there been any scientific literature from there, then it can be posted to reinforce the statement. Currently, it seems weak and not strongly sustained in the segment. Furthermore, the segment mentioning that 'they need to still pay for pesticides and irrigation systems' is confusing. I'm not seeing the clear relevance to the previous statements, and it's outright misleading to mention insecticides and say that pesticides, an umbrella term featuring insecticides, are still being used, implying that the crop isn't doing what it needs to do. Furthermore, the same statement regarding a transition from 'expensive change from traditional seed varieties' seems a bit vague. What were the traditional seed varieties? How long ago was it and is it relevant? Is it actually expensive. Removed the segment due to its seeming irrelevance to the prior statements.

"Many farmers are not able to pay for the expensive technologies, and especially if they have a bad harvest, they cannot pay back their debts, and many have committed suicide (600-700 a year in 2006/2007)."

The link between suicides and of how Bt cotton may have played resulting in an increase in suicides has not been strongly supported by evidence such as,^[1] with the discussion of the cited article stating "Still, our analysis is sufficiently well documented to discredit the possibility of a naıve direct causal or reciprocal relationship between Bt cotton and farmer suicides". Quite frankly, that statement is not quite valid. Regarding the idea of debt, that is also quite a loose and vague statement in regards to the use of the previously mentioned 'Bt cotton', that if they're in debt and they have a bad harvest, then it's due to the adoption of that particular crop. And regarding the statement of it being an 'expensive technology', compared to what? I have deleted that segment from that section, due to it not really being that reliable and relevant of a segment.

"This can allow larger farms, even foreign-owned farming operations, to buy up the local small farms."

No citation, is such a statement worth keeping? Added ^{[citation needed]} tag.

"Vandana Shiva notes that this is the "second Green Revolution""

Does this belong in Green Revolution or Second Green Revolution?

I'd appreciate discussion on this part, and have also contributed a new line to it from a source I found. Please don't bite that hard, gimme a few thousand more words before that,

Ini7 (talk) 10:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

References

^ http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220388.2010.492863

Graph of wheat yields--help with data?

I've made an updated version (File:Wheat yields in Least Developed Countries.svg) of the wheat yields graph (File:Wheat_yields_in_developing_countries_1951-2004.png), with source data and such included. I swapped it out in this page, but that was reverted, because it doesn't show production as being flat through the 50s and taking off in the 60s like the original graph did. However, the original graph wasn't exactly well-specified, plus the FAOSTAT website (a) doesn't go back earlier than 1961, and (b) doesn't have a filter for 'developing countries' specifically. I can't reproduce that chart with the data that's available to me. If someone could point me in the right direction, I'd be happy to redo the graph. Help? grendel|khan 09:34, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

@Grendelkhan: I took a closer look and found that even the original graph doesn't go back to the 1940s, and the cited source only applies to the last sentence in the caption, which is about maize and not wheat. The problem is actually the caption, not the graph. So, I was wrong to revert your change. My apologies, and thanks for doing the research! BTW, I also think that your graph is superior because it puts the baseline at 0 rather than 500, so the graph visually conveys proportion correctly. I have just restored your graph and updated the caption. One other thought: since the accompanying text in the body is mostly about increases in rice yields in India, do you think it would be better to make a new graph, showing yields of rice rather than wheat, and limited to India? —Ben Kovitz (talk) 11:35, 7 August 2016 (UTC) P.S. If you do run another graph, would you please include a label for the vertical axis?

@BenKovitz: Hey, thanks! I'm happy to make another chart. (And thank you for noticing the zeroed Y-axis!) I had put the label ("kg/Ha") in the header because it took up a lot of space if I put it along the Y-axis, and made the graph considerably smaller. WP:HCGWA#Design seems to say that I should put that data in the graph itself, which I think I should be able to do... aha, done. (I'd also abbreviated hectare wrong; it's ha, not Ha.) The graph you asked for will be up at File:Rice yields in India.svg shortly; it's a lot easier to make more charts once I've figured out the code for the rest of them. And let me know if there are any more charts or graphs I can make or fix for you! grendel|khan 00:54, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Elitism

The section titled "Norman Borlaug's response to criticism" should be cut and his quotes woven into the other sections. No one doubts his pivotal role in establishing the Green Revolution, but dead men can't respond to counter-evidence, so focusing on *his* response rather than generic "Responses to Criticisms" is problematic.

Even more problematic is the fact that "elitism" is a vague charge that can be leveled at countless supporters of the Green Revolution who work in airconditioned offices, labs, parliaments, etc. around the globe. As noted in the documentary Profits from Poison, supporters are often oblivious to conditions on the ground, such as the inconvenience of officially recommended protective gear that is virtually unwearable in a hot, humid climate.

Better quotes should be found for countering criticism than this one; no matter how often it is circulated by "secondary sources" it is in fact a weak defense because elitism applies to many diverse parties who comment on the Green Revolution. Martindo (talk) 03:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

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General Improvement Possibilities

Overall the article is very well developed. There are many sources (upwards of 70) to help formulate an informative article. In a few instances, however, like under "The 'New' Green Revolution," where there is a "main article" used instead of a few articles. It may be in the best interest of the article to help develop sections like these further by adding in updated opinions.

Also, there are many quotations used throughout the article which seems to break it up in a way that doesn't make much sense to the reader. Paraphrasing of these quotes, especially the ones that needed to be offset due to their length may help the full entry flow together better.

At the end of the day, the entry does seem to be neutral and the opinions/criticisms offered up are attributed to a source. There is no apparent bias even though the criticism aspect of the entry seems to make up the majority of the material. Kpinola (talk) 19:48, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Distraction and under representation

Distraction The topic that I found distracting was Agricultural production and food security, specifically under technologies. The use of HYVs or "high-yielding varieties was used too frequently, which made me read the topic and a few sentence more twice to understand it. The second paragraph can be rewritten so it could be easier to understand.

Underrepresented

A topic that was underrepresented was: Green Revolution in Rice: IR8 and the Philippine. This topic does not have a lot of information or facts. I think more information is needed. For example, information of how the rice cultivation affected or benefited Phillippine. In addition, more information for the new green revolution is needed.

Ivetteramoslucas (talk) 09:12, 25 September 2016 (UTC)Ivetteramoslucas

Underrepresented topic and additional citations

Hi Fellow Wikipedians,

I'm a relatively new Wikipedia "editor" and have some questions about the Green Revolution article and possible contributions for the future.

Under the History category the "Green Revolution in Rice: IR8 and the Philippines", in addition to "Brasil's Agricultural Revolution" seem to be underrepresented and pale in comparison to the other explained topics within the category such as the "Green Revolution in Mexico", "Green Revolution's start in India", and "Problems in Africa." I feel that these two aforementioned categories could be elaborated upon in the detail as the others and mention many other elements of the history of Green Revolution in these subsections. In the example of Brazil's agricultural revolution, additional information could be added that gives the reader a more full background on the Green revolution history of Brazil, for example the different policies enacted, Green revolution techniques utilized, sociopolitical relations, motivations and difficulties experienced in the country.

I also believe that additional citations for these underrepresented sections would also contribute objective support for the information provided to bring these sections, particularly the "Brasil's Agricultural Revolution" section up to the descriptive standards put in place by the other subsections in the History block, for example in the "Green Revolution in Mexico" section.

These are just some of my thoughts for possible improvements. Please let me know if you share the same concerns and if this is the correct way to use the Talk page. I'm still learning and would like to improve on my Wikipedia contribution and editing.

Brian.kim (talk) 21:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

If you have sources in mind that are not currently being used, please add them here. If they are high quality WP:RS sources, their use in the article could certainly be an improvement.Dialectric (talk) 04:33, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

What source is this from?? Should be cited "

"The initiatives, led by Norman Borlaug, the "Father of the Green Revolution," who received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1970, credited with saving over a billion people from starvation, involved the development of high-yielding varieties of cereal grains, expansion of irrigation infrastructure, modernization of management techniques, distribution of hybridized seeds, synthetic fertilizers, and pesticides to farmers." Gbarronv (talk) 23:29, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Citations for the content of that sentence are in the Norman Borlaug article, and do not need to be repeated in the Green Revolution article. In general, content in the lede may appear without citations if that material is covered in the article body with citations. Dialectric (talk) 04:31, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Famine

Article would benefit of a discussion about food distribution practices not only food production, and how these affect famine and the legacy of the Green Revolution. Gbarronv (talk) 23:37, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

1. History 1.1 Green Revolution

This section is framed in such a fashion that it does not address any problems with the mode in which Rockefeller and the FAO came in with scientists. It is inherently biased, in reflecting that it did not partake in land grabbing and dispossession of land in Mexico. A source that highlights some of these struggles and events, would lessen the implicit bias of genetically modified foods creating only good outcomes in this particular section.

Meralina (talk) 23:39, 25 September 2016 (UTC) Meralina Morales, 9/25/2016

Environmental Impact

Section: Greenhouse Gas Emissions

This section is short, and only tells one side of the store. It also isn't common knowledge to understand what is being said. I am certain there are other sources that say that the green revolution led to higher amounts of GHGs. Also, whose land did it save from being bought? Were they the already elite who polluted elsewhere? What about the impact of machinery on the land that was taken up by the Green revolution. does that offset traditionally farming over more Hectares of land?

Meralina (talk) 23:46, 25 September 2016 (UTC) Meralina Morales , 9/25/2016

Quotes

Perhaps there should be a "block" quote in this paragraph: since it is more than three sentences on the wikipedia page. On a different note, maybe needed a little more sources around that subject since the US had more reasons to the green revolution besides fighting communism. This article can might have more of critics and favors of the Green Revolution" in order to be more neutral.

The term "Green Revolution" was first used in 1968 by former US Agency for International Development (USAID) director William Gaud, who noted the spread of the new technologies: "These and other developments in the field of agriculture contain the makings of a new revolution. It is not a violent Red Revolution like that of the Soviets, nor is it a White Revolution like that of the Shah of Iran. I call it the Green Revolution."[3]

192.31.105.151 (talk) 03:54, 26 September 2016 (UTC)Dorai

Underrepresentation of Green Revolution in the Phillipines, Brazil, and India

The article has extensive information on the Green Revolution in Mexico, but far less information on the Phillipines, Brazil, and India. There seems to be a bias towards the Green Revolution's effects in Mexico. Mcera8006 (talk) 17:40, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll try to add some info about the role of the International Rice Research Institute in the Philippines, and I noticed that the high-yield rice varieties seemed under-covered. India has some historical info in The Wizard and the Prophet: Two Remarkable Scientists and Their Dueling Visions to Shape Tomorrow's World by Charles C. Mann. And actually there's already a fair bit of info over at M. S. Swaminathan, who worked with Borlaug on the wheat intro in the 1960s & 70s, that could be used here. --Pete Tillman (talk) 23:08, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

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User Saifryzwi's addition on India

User:Saifryzwi has repeatedly added text covering criticisms of the Green revolution in India, including problems of unequal distribution and benefits. While these are legitimate criticisms, they need a reliable source. www.allexamnotes.com is not a WP:RS. Though it claims to be written by 'teachers of Lucknow University', it appears to be a personal blog/site with nearly all entries authored by 'sadiq'. Entries typically have no references, and there is no editorial policy. This source should not be added again. There are better sources out there covering critical views of the Green revolution globally and specifically in India.Dialectric (talk) 11:05, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Socioeconomic impact

I added the following paragraph but it was reverted by User:Snooganssnoogans as a "fringe view:"

The green revolution tended throughout the developing world to increase social and economic inequality because most farmers could not afford the new higher-yield crops and the greater amounts of fertilizers and pesticides that production of these crops required. Also, seeds of the higher-yield crops typically had to be purchased from American agribusiness and for the most part were much more expensive than seeds for traditional local crops. As a result, larger and often-Western-affiliated agribusiness and more affluent farmers typically prospered but poorer farmers were often driven out of business. The larger farms tended to grow the higher-yield crops as cash crops for export from the country. As such cash crops often replaced food production for local markets, which, in turn, often brought increased hunger for the poorer segments of the local population. Overall, such trends further concentrated power over global agriculture in a few Western firms.^[1]^[2]^[3]

No source was provided for a contrary view or to support the assertion that it's fringe.NYCJosh (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

References

^ Clifford D. Conner, "The Tragedy of American Science, from Truman to Trump" (Chicago: Haymarket Books, 2020), pp. 22-23
^ United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), 20 Apr. 2006 "Tracking the Trend towards Market Concentration: The Case of the Agricultural Input Industry"
^ Kristina Hubbard, Dec. 2009 "Out of Hand: Farmers Face the Consequences of Consolidated Seed Industry" National Family Farm Coalition

This was a good removal of absolute bottom-of-the-barrel low-quality activist sourcing by Snooganssnoogans (namely, the Marxist-oriented Haymarket Books and two explicitly activist sources ending in ".org"). In fact, as Snooganssnoogans noted in his edit summary, "the green revolution has been studied by countless scholars in peer-reviewed journals," many of which are cited in this article and cast severe doubt on NYCJosh's claims. (If necessary, I'm sure that Snooganssnoogans can go into more detail, as he is more familiar with the relevant literature than I am.) Regardless, the WP:BURDEN is on NYCJosh to substantiate his extraordinary assertions with top-quality reliable sources, and that burden simply has not been met.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

The sources for this rather extraordinary claim (the Green Revolution increased inequality within and between nations) are very poor: a book by a marxist publisher, beginningfarmers.org, and a deadlinked UNCTAD report by a person who has no scholarly publications. Since this is a high-profile topic that has been studied by scholars across subfields, and since the article already includes some high-quality publications that point to different conclusions, I don't see why we should be inserting extraordinary claims supported by poor sources. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

The Conner book is RS. It is written by a professor of history at a major research university who specializes in the history of science. The report by the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development is also a first rate RS. The link I provided is to the executive summary. Here is a link to the complete UN report: https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/574354?ln=es The objection provides no RS to rebut any of the major assertions. Just handwaving and name calling. NYCJosh (talk) 15:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

This content could start off with a qualifier like 'some critics of the Green Revolution have said that the green revolution tended to increase social inequality.' There are a number of WP:RS sources that take this position, making it a minority viewpoint rather than a fringe one. The Family Farm Coalition source is not independently published/reviewed and should not be used.Dialectric (talk) 15:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, Dialectric, if Snooganssnoogans provided any RS contradicting the principal points of what I contributed then we could discuss that as a possibility.NYCJosh (talk) 13:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The Conner book is absolutely not a RS. The author appears to have a PhD from CUNY (which is one indication of expertise) but has no actual peer-reviewed publications and does not appear to have a tenured position in an academic department. The fact that the book is published by a Msrxist polemic publisher is an indication of the fringe nature of the publication: why would someone with a valid contribution to science not publish the findings in peer-reviewed respected publishers? The UNCTAD report is of both unclear relevance and of dubious value: the report is authored by one person who has no scholarly publications, it is unclear whether and to what extent the report was peer-reviewed, the report at no point mentions the term "Green Revolution", and the only thing that the report appears to say is that there has been consolidation in the agrichemical industry. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Evergreen Revolution into Green Revolution

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge. DTM (talk) 09:30, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Evergreen Revolution intends to build upon the Green Revolution. This could also be merged into Sustainable agriculture and Second Green Revolution DTM (talk) 12:44, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@DiplomatTesterMan I would be bold and just do it! This is definitely not a persistent term in the literature, and could be covered with a section within the main article, Sadads (talk) 12:59, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

@DiplomatTesterMan Yes it is a really small article. Do the necessary. Chidgk1 (talk) 13:34, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Agree. I have never heard that term before. Invasive Spices (talk) 3 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[1] SRI as part of the new green revolution

[2] MutMap as part of the new green revolution

[3] FAO on the new green revolution

[4] Agroecology as part of the new green revolution

[5] ttps://www.facebook.com/RiceDuckMovement

[6] ttp://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220388.2010.492863

[7] Clifford D. Conner, "The Tragedy of American Science, from Truman to Trump" (Chicago: Haymarket Books, 2020), pp. 22-23

[8] United Nations Conference on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), 20 Apr. 2006 "Tracking the Trend towards Market Concentration: The Case of the Agricultural Input Industry"

[9] Kristina Hubbard, Dec. 2009 "Out of Hand: Farmers Face the Consequences of Consolidated Seed Industry" National Family Farm Coalition

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