Talk:Gothic rock/Archive 1

Redirect

ģFirstly, I think the redirect should have been to goth music, rather than gothic rock, since gothic rock is a subset of goth music. -- Birchtree

OK. When I merge, I tend to remove the smallest article, rather than making complicated decisions about which title is better. Do as ye will. Martin

Essentially though, such an entry ends up as nothing more than an opinion poll as to which bands are considered to be gothic rock. My vote is for certain parts of this page to be subsumed into the Goth entry (since the movement and the music are extremely difficult to seperate), and both goth music and gothic rock to be set as a redirect to Goth. -- Birchtree

Interestingly, I take the opposite approach: Large chunks of the Goth article should be moved to Gothic music or Gothic fashion, as appropriate.

The music and the fashion and the philosophy are easy to seperate. The fashion aspects of Goth are what you wear. The music aspects of Goth are what you listen to. The philosophical aspects of Goth are what you think. Clearly there are strong links between these aspects, but equally they can be profitably examined individually as well. Martin

Well, my point is that if you are to say anything remotely meaningful about the rise of goth, you have to talk about its development as a music scene. The philosophy aspect is something I wouldn't want to touch with a barge-pole because then you really do get into a completely subjective debate about 'what it's all about'. The main thrust of the goth article was to avoid that pitfall and still be informative. -- Birchtree

Well, one can take a holistic view of goth, or a reductionist view of goth. But they don't have to be mutually exclusive: we can have a holistic overview at goth, with more specific articles talking about goth from the perspective of fashion, music, and philosophy/lifestyle/... Martin

Taken from the article:

the solos are more moody & intellectual than aggressive.

Can someone explain this statement? How can a solo be "intellectual"? FWIW, my observation on goth solos are they're generally simple melodies, normally similes of the chorus and less focused on "flashy" playing than hard rock solos. -- Jim Regan 01:32 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I was looking for information on pre-renaissance post-romanic music. A disambigulation page would probably serve better than any redirect. 79.216.208.89 (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Doings Things Differently

Silly point: since when were Jane's Addiction goth? I know you Do Things Differently in the United States, but not that much! -- Aleph

They aren't, but I think whoever wrote that thought they had much in common. Feel free to remove them if you want. —Morven 18:02, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Related Genres

I see that industrial is not linked as a related genre at the bottom of the page, yet it is mentioned just as much as punk in the article, and it is linked from the info box. I realize that to many, the separation of goth and industrial is a sacred one, but can anyone genuinely give a good reason why industrial music should not be listed in the related genres section at the bottom? There are probably fewer than ten "goth nights" at clubs around the world that do not play any industrial music. Again, I'm not saying industrial and goth are the same, or that industrial is better, but I think that even if they are evolutionarily different, they are culturally related today. If nobody objects to this within a few days, I'll put it back onto the list.

• Go for it; I've always considered the two a bit related (although usually clearly distinct). I figured if someone felt like removing it, they probably had a more meaningful opinion than I on the subject. However, I'd think the link would belong... Folkor 06:04, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

More info just moved in

I just transfered a bunch of information concerning gothic music from the Goth page to this one, since it is more appropriate here. I am kinda burned out from editing the Goth page, so the info here may still look a bit choppy or half assed. Anyone should feel free to clean it up. If not, I may do it slowly over the next few days or weeks. Grice 11:41, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

EBM & more

Front 242 is EBM. --vininim 20:43, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

that's right...and EBM was a mix between electro punk (DAF, Krupps) and industrial (Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire). EBM isn't goth.

90's Goth

I'm an ex-goth scenester who was pretty involved in the scene in the 90's, and I saw that there's a lot missing about 90's goth in the article, such as mentions of bands like Switchblade Symphony, Sunshine Blind, Bella Morte, the Cruxshadows, Rosetta Stone, etc. These bands were sort of a bridge between the Sisters of Mercy and the modern EBM that everyone's listening to now - electronic, yet still gothy.

I agree, though I always thought of Switchblade Symphony as more Darkwave, but that's splitting hairs, considering the impact they had, esp. on the San Francisco scene. Infact, the distinction between the 80's Goth tradition and Darkwave get blurry with the others as well, though the Crüxshadows are more like the Clan of Xymox I suppose. Any staple compilations such as The Goth Box or The Black Bible include these bands. Anyway, nevermind the ramblings of a plainclothes goth... Khirad 09:02, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I also agree with this. It seemed like there was a bit of a gap in the information from 1995 to the present. The resurgence of deathrock and the rise of dark cabaret, etc. are fairly recent movements, after all. There are a number of bands from this period worth mentioning. Darkwave, dark alternative, and gothic industrial are all terms I heard a lot cira 1997. AR 17:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Goth and Classical influences

I was reading this article, and it seems to be missing on information about the other kind of Goth music which doesn't involve heavy guitars, drums, electronics and whatnot, but instead use more 'classical' influences - especially piano and string instruments, and are not 'rock' in the common sense of the term. How does this fit into the genre (I'm not-really-goth except in what I believe), and does the style have a name? I can't name any bands in particular at the moment, so any edits would be great. --elynnia

Do you mean stuff like Lycia, Unto Ashes, Ataraxia, Faith & The Muse, etc.? Oh, and above all, the divine Black Tape for a Blue Girl of Sam Rosenthal! Some of them use electronic synthesizers, but they are ambient and such. I don't know what to call Ataraxia and Faith & the Muse, not exactly Medieval Rock, "folk goth" perhaps? The rest are Ethereal, in my opinion. By the way, I was meaning to write an Ethereal article, anyone want to help? I think bands with classical influences are too many to name though. "This Corrosion" could qualify, or the operatic Die Form. Khirad 09:17, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I forgot 'Love is Colder Than Death', which have lately taken the reins from Dead Can Dance, but were very electro-orchestral. Khirad 09:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The style you're talking about is Gothic music (generally glazed over by Gothic Rock and Death Rock fans) as opposed to Gothic Rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"Darkwave" doesn't mean shit. It's a phrase used by Switchblade Symphony so as to not get tossed off of the Dark Harvest tour by Andrew "bite the hand that feeds me" Eldritch. Gothic means "Gothic Rock" to people who are not aware of Gothic Music. Not all music is rock. Not all music fans like rock. I love Gothic Music and I say "fuck rock 'n' roll". I am attracted to Gothic Music because it is not boring, insipid, tired rock music. Guitar/bass/drums/singer line ups are dull. Gothic music is made with pipe organs, cellos, violins, hammered dulcimers and so on. Which, last I checked, isn't fucking rock 'n' roll. Stop redirecting Gothic music to Gothic rock. That are in no way similar. Listen to Mors Syphilitica or This Ascension and then listen to The Wake or Astrovamps and tell me they are the same genre of music. Jesus fucking Christ I am so sick un these witless assclown and their redirects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 05:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Dark Wave is a term from the 80s, used for the music of Joy Division or Depeche Mode. In those days there was no Switchblade Symphony. Gothic means Gothic rock. In the 80s, Gothic rock was a part of the Dark Wave movement, the dark side of New Wave. Your Gothic music definition is POV (Point of View) and is not scientific. --Breathtaker 09:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

In Germany, we called it Dark Wave, because the term 'gothic' means mostly 'gothic rock'.

There are many dark styles from the late New Wave era... Not every kind of music is 'Goth music'.

Okay folks, I just updated a ton of information here. The page had become horribly disorganized with random comment on the early scene and influences. I created three new subcategories to help organized the information under the first generation of goth (emergences of the UK, American/Candadian, and continental European/Australian scenes), as well as updating some important information. Some people seem to want to throw in every little fact instead of the overarching ones, and also don't want to take the time to use good grammar, spelling, and punctuation. Also, value judgments or abstract conclusions are not really encyclopediac material; that is fodder for web blogs. Let's keep the intent of the Wikipedia here by keeping this page comprehensive but concise, informational but precise, insightful but objective/authoritative. Mick Mercer is a good reference point for understanding the evolution of gothic music. Please avoid adding tangential bands that may have existed for a year or two, but contributed no real impact to the development of the genre. (And yes, Faith and the Muse are Gothic Rock: subcategory, Darkwave...have talked to the band myself).---A soon to be registered editor, for now "EntropyTea". NOVEMBER 14 2005

Darkwave isn't a subcategory. Darkwave is a generic term and this term comprises styles like goth rock, neofolk, ethereal and other dark genres from the 80's New wave-era...

Since when do the Doors or any other 60's band have any influence whatsoever on Gothic Music or Gothic Rock? Goth was an off shoot of Punk which was widely considered to be the anti-hippie. If anything, Punk influenced Gothic Rock and Death Rock and Opera & Classical influenced Gothic Music while hippie music was the forefather of metal. I don't think hippie music or metal should ever be credited for having anything to do with Goth when it had nothing to do with it's creation or development. If anything Goth is a counter balance to the popularity of metal. - 11:51 PM October 9, 2007

Gothic is a Post-punk genre. Groups such as Joy Division, Sisters of Mercy, Siouxsie & The Banshees, Bauhaus, The Southern Death Cult, Garden of Delight, Love Like Blood and others were influenced by the music of The Doors, David Bowie, and Nico. Gothic rock has a strong Psychedelic rock influence (your so-called 'hippie music') and an influence of Glam rock. --Breathtaker 12:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

And The Doors and Bowie aren't Punk bands. I've played in several Gothic and Gothic Rock bands and I can tell you that none of us have ever felt inspired by psychedelic rock or glam. I don't think you know what you're talking about. I think this is just an example of a hippie wanting to feel responsiblity for something it's culture had nothing to do with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 13:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hm, maybe your bands were never Goth groups. Psychedelic rock is a principal element of Gothic rock. And this is a fact. Read the books about Gothic rock and the interviews of the early Goth rock bands. --Breathtaker 13:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not taling about "Gothic Rock". Gothic music is influenced by classical music and opera, not psychedelic anything. A majority of the point in Gothic music, aesthetics and so on is the attempt to disregard most everything that has taken place in the past 100 years or so. (Hence the heavy use of pipe organs and violins and the "Victorian Funeral" look.) Which would include rock n' roll, hippies, etc. And, yes, they were, in fact, Gothic bands. I don't need to read any of the Mick Mercer books, I have been involved in that scene since 1988. Thank you. - 12:21, 15 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk)

Messing with the band list.

Somone is messing with the list of goth rock bands. I found Rammestein, HIM, All About Eve, 69 Eyes, etc

What's wrong with All About Eve being in there?? Are you familiar with their first releases? It's like a mixture of Skeletal Family, Sisters, and Cocteau Twins. Completely and totally Gothic Rock material. --FACT50 20:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted the band list to what I deemed as the most recently cleanest (Sept 17). If the last band listing seemed acceptable to anyone in terms of band names, might I suggest making a new page dedicated as a list? The last band listing had bands of all kinds listed under the moniker of “gothic” (add to that, it was sloppy in organization with band named repeated more than once, and with little sense of alphebetization…also, it was long). I’d disagree with some of the band names that were there (Duran Duran? GWAR?), but I guess there are certain bands that are debatable, after all (especially, as pointed out within this very article, that there is particular debate whether some third-generation bands are gothic or not). Overall, since I could see someone coming back to add debatably “non-goth” bands into the list, it might be a good idea to separate the bands by the “generation-gap” that is made out by the article in such a new page, with a summary to describe what goes in each section. Just an idea. Shadowolf 06:55, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Genres the bands fit into any why some shouldn't be on the list

I request that we remove all goth metal bands from the goth rock list. Apart from it being the difference between rock and metal, goth metal has nothing to do with goth rock or goth culture. The meaning of goth in goth metal is different to the meaning of goth in goth rock. - 666zombie666

Agreed.

Another request is that industrial bands are removed from the list. Industrial music is not goth music. Something about fusion can be mentioned but I think that if an article is about Goth Rock then the bands mentioned should be Goth Rock bands (or very similar genres such as Death Rock and Darkwave) - 666zombie666

We seriously need to trim the band list. Yes, industrial and other genres have overlap with goth, but it's not really informative to include all bands associated with the gothic scene. Plus, we have band lists for Industrial, Death Rock, etc. already. I don't mind if someone adds modifiers indicating a band is industrial or whatever, but just throwing in Nurse With Wound on a list of gothic rock artists isn't helping anyone. WesleyDodds 03:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Generations

Does anyone else think the random paragraph on Canadian bands in the 2nd gen. section feels out of place?

First half of 4th generation removed, this is an article about what Gothic Rock IS, not what it is misconceived by the media as, the bands mentioned in "3rd generation" aren't any generation of goth rock because they do not pertain to the genre. Glowstick kids and metal is not part of “Goth rock” there is already a “Goth metal” article on this site for those bands. - Deathrocker 07:08, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment on Removal of '4th Generation': Agreed with your conclusion, but you may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. There has a distinct change in the sound and style of Gothic Rock since the 9-11-01 event, and the sounds now (Dresden Dolls, Cinema Strange, Black Ice, etc.) are distinctly different from what marked the post-alternative era from 1995-1998, which had primarily either of two directions: a techno-cyberpunk or Projekt-style feel to it (Mors Syphilitica, Love Spirals Downward, Lycia, Sheep On Drugs, Wupscut, Haujobb, Apoptyma, etc). This should be recognized as fourth-generation goth, not third.

Gothic Rock?

I thought Gothic rock was a subset of metal, coming from a completely different tradition than gothic, or postpunk. This article just puts everything together as if it were one thing; different music styles, fashion and lifestyle... Migdejong 09:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Er, what? I think you are thinking about gothic metal. And this article doesn't put everything together; that's the Goth article. WesleyDodds 05:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I know this as goth rock, it is called that on the german, the French and the dutch wiki. You're right about the putting things together, I'm sorry... Migdejong 09:00, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Ok 1st-2nd-3rd being on Goth rock with trend and styles should reconsider being in Goth subculture section but why in logic is there no subculture for Victorian Goths or the ones that listen to Gothic european metal? There are Victorian goths that I know and they like Anne Rice novels, Gothic Metal and Dungeon and Dragons yeah they also dress black, to a extent also dislike punk (so called goth-punk) or dislike as you know industrial. Yet I still don't understand to this day why New Wave is in comparison to Goth and why people think plain Goth has to be punk or industrial like Victorian Goths are fake or extinct. This talk is coming from a Victorian Goth! --ForsakenPoppet (talk) 22:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Images

Somebody knows where the images have gone? 83.160.234.29 09:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason there aren't any images in the article?DeadLeafEcho 02:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

EBM / NDW

At the same time bands like Bauhaus and Christian Death were forming in those countries, dark bands such as Einstürzende Neubauten (1980), Xmal Deutschland (1980), Die Krupps (1981), and Pink Turns Blue were forming in Germany. Belgium gave rise to electronic body music (EBM) with influence from bands such as Kraftwerk and the early EBM band Front 242 (1981).

• A part of this section is not important for the article, because Einstürzende Neubauten, Front 242 & Krupps were never goth bands... they came from the post-industrial- & electro-punk-scene.

Well I Dont know about you guys, but here in aus, Darkwave, industrial and cyberpunk are very much part of the goth culture... gothic rock is a subset of gothic music. Definatley not the other way around. (J. P Marshall III)

• To the first part - I agree, but hose bands also aren't from the post-industrial and electro-punk-scene, they were industrial! To the second part - Yes, that may be true (in fact, it largely is true in America, too), but in the 80s, when gothic rock started, that definitely was not the case. However, this article is about gothic rock, not the much more broad topic of music that has a gothic sound, flavor, or image. Folkor 07:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Neubauten is a group from the post-industrial-era (about 1981), Die Krupps were electropunk (volle kraft voraus!), Front 242 were EBM. That's not the same like Industrial! Especially in the US, any shit is industrial or goth... really strange opinions...

Darkwave is not a part of the Goth culture, because Darkwave is the dark side of New wave, nothing more. Within the New wave movement there were many styles with dark and spooky sounds, especially Goth rock and Coldwave etc.

I think it's probably debatable that the term "darwave" is not associated with the goth culture. As the wiki article on darkwave succinctly puts it... it's a generic term... pretty much a catch all for all sorts of dark new wave music, and certainly plenty of goth bands fall in that category. Anyways, that's not what's realy being debated here, is it? What's being debated is the inclusion of certain bands that are not goth rock in this specific paragraph. The thing is, the article isn't argueing that these bands are specifically goth rock bands, but simply dark bands which sprung up during the goth subculture's genesis. These bands were eventually embraced into most of the goth scene even though they may not exactly be Goth rock bands, and if not, they deffinantly influenced the sound (and look) of goth over the years. Oh, and believe it or not, I know an American or two (including myself occasionally) who's just as anal about making sure every band fits into their own sub sub sub genre (not just broadly goth or industrial) so maybe there's hope for the US after all. ;D--Adrift* 18:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There is the main problem: Early goth bands in Europe and Australia

See, I think i'm seeing it in a totally different way than you are. I really don't think it's a big deal that these bands are not strictly "goth rock", because this part of the article is just highlighting the influences and development of the goth music scenes in Germany, Amsterdam, and Australia. Yeah, maybe a few more strictly "goth rock" bands should be name dropped, but the goth music scene we have today (in all it's wonderful variety) has strong roots to the bands in the article. But hey, if you think you can word that part of the article a bit better, why don't you come up with something and shop it around to the other editors. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal that these bands are in this part of the article, but that's just me...--Adrift* 01:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's ok to make reference to these bands and movements, but we shouldn't give too much space to it, since this article is about a particular style rather than music that is popular in goth culture. WesleyDodds 03:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Very true. Folkor 03:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

  I'd rather see Malaria! get a mention then Neubauten. --FACT50 20:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Info box

Just cuious, but why is the info box named Alternative rock and not Gothic Rock? And why is Grunge listed as a subgenre and a derivative form? --Adrift* 20:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• Because that's the infobox for alt-rock, of which goth rock is a part. If you are suggesting that that infobox be used only on the alt-rock page, and that a new one be written for this one, I'd say that that sounds like good logic. Folkor 08:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed. there's some stuff here about genre infoboxes. --MilkMiruku 04:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't think that reasoning makes much sense. Indie rock evolved out of punk and post-punk, and grunge is a mixture hardocre punk fused with metal. So listing them as derivative forms is misleading because neither one of them evolved from Gothic Rock, and neither one of them is a Gothic Rock fusion genre. Dark Cabaret and Gothabilly considers themselves fusion genres where Gothic Rock is one of their influnces, perhaps they could be listed as a derivative forms of Gothic Rock. FilmGal 03:20, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

External Links

Some of these look dubious at best and a couple of them seem to directly violate Links to normally avoid policy [[1]]. I'm thinking we should probably take some time to discuss which links would be valid to include with the article before anyone goes off deleting them all though. Thoughts?--Adrift* 18:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• That sounds like a great plan. I've oft wondered about many of those links. Folkor 06:49, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

i also brought this issue to attention on Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres here (not that anyone else has replied yet :p) --MilkMiruku 01:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• I removed the Gothic Beauty link from the See Also links. That is a private company, not an informative site or literary refference. --FACT50 20:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

First Generation

I've been making some pretty big edits to this section of the article. I deleted this line: Throbbing Gristle's Industrial Records (1976) exemplified this attitude amongst the post-punk groups. Throbbing Gristle made the way for Industrial music, which is often catagoroized in with Goth because each cross lines and are easy to merge in the club scenes. In recent years, the tendency has swung almost entirely the other way, with many bands being quick to label themselves as goth and borrow the imagery. Because, unlike the debate in the EBM subheading on this talk page, i seriously can't see a reason to add TG to this section of the article. First off, (and correct me if i'm wrong) TG is not a postpunk band (they're strictly industrial) and the article doesn't go on to explain how TG exemplifies a distaste for labels. Secondly, it's stretching it to say that industrial is categorized in with "goth rock" (that's the topic isn't it?) or that post-industrial bands are are "quick to label themselves as goth". I also edited the area referring to The Sisters and how they don't fancy themselves a goth band. It just seemed a bit off subject when discussing the origins of the First Generation goth bands, the other deletions and edits i made were based on clarifying confusing sections of the article and removing redundant info.--Adrift* 01:34, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Throbbing Gristle are considered post-punk in some circles, but yeah, they don't need to be in this article at all. WesleyDodds 08:37, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Came across this discussion by accident, I remember when bands didn't really have labels and Throbbing Gristle was a "spooky" band that had a big influence on those that would evently form the "Gothic Movement". Whether they were first generation or just highly influential is debatable.--MALCOMXBLISS 02:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I think they were considered seperately experimental at the time. Industrial rose around the same time as Punk (Arguably Suicide and TG's first real "albums" sprung up in 77 around the same time as the Sex Pistol's first LP the same year. With Cabaret Voltaire's first LP in 79). As far as Goth is concerned, Bauhaus' Bela Lugosi's Dead EP (arguebly the first goth 'song') didn't appear till 79. If anything these band did influence what would be part of the overall future goth scene, but when discussing the first generation of goth at large... are they appropriate for the article? Personally, I don't think so.--Adrift* 05:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Always going to be a problem deciding who is in the "first generation" of any "movement" since the bands involved seldom know they are part of a movement. History usually decides long after the fact. Just look at the five bands listed under "Early goth bands in America"; Christian Death (at least early on) and 45 Grave were totally punk bands. Voodoo Church had such a limited output it's hard to say, but if given the chance they probably would have gone metal. Kommunity FK also had a quite limited output, but seemed to have more in common with the Suicides, Throbbing Gristles and the artsy farsty post punk movement than their deathrock counterparts. The fifth band, Theatre of Ice is by far the most obscure albeit also probably the most prolific. They had songs that today would fit the very "formula" of goth -- but also did deathrock, experimental, post-punk, pop -- you name it they did it (and probably did it before the others, they were just located in some obscure dead animal pit in the Nevada desert instead of L.A., London or New York). I find it intersting that you can now find so much information on the web about Theatre of Ice, when back in the 80's it was nearly impossible to find their recordings.--63.240.135.30 09:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

That's probably because some of the band members of Theatre of Ice are semi-active within the current deathrock scene (especially on message boards). But yes, I agree that history usually decides who had any major involvment in how the scene unfolded. I'd only argue that Christian Death, though strongly tied to the LA punk scene, probably had an undeniable connection to the evolution of goth music, but anyways, I get your point.--Adrift* 22:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree about Christian Death, althought I think they are abit "over-rated", not that they weren't great, but I think they were elevated by many to a "god-like" status. As for Theatre of Ice, whether they are responsible for it, or others --- history has been very kind to them. Back in the late 80's I tried desperately to get copies of "Mouse Blood" and "A Cool Dark Place to Die" --- most the time my letters were returned "Address Unknown". Now I have copies of both on CD. In a way it was cooler to try and find stuff that was so obscure and unavailable --- now it's all there for the asking. In many ways they've lost their mystery. They were definitely a band that many more had heard of, then had heard.--68.3.17.24 09:26, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have also removed Siouxsie & the Banshees from the introduction as a "Goth" band. They were originally "punk", although not typical of conceptions of that genre even, and had a relatively brief period where their music could be described a "gothic" - even in retrospect. They obviously had a good deal of influence on the emerging scene, especially stylistically, but this is commented upon later in the article. Referring to them as gothic is simply an example of lazy journalism, after the event, which has taken on the label of fact.88.109.17.2 19:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC) damn, my connection was lost...LessHeard vanU 19:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah i didn't get that edit to Siouxsie to tell the truth. Practically every single first generation Goth Rock band was punk originally. With that reasoning we might as well ensure there are no references to The Cure, The Cult, UK Decay, and even Sisters of Mercy at the very beginning of their career. Obviously bands like the Banshees and The Cure went on and evolved their sound, but they're such an integral part to what Goth Rock is, it's wild to not include them as forefronters of the earliest part of the scene. PS. I understand "They" might not agree that they were Goth Rock (who did?) but as stated elsewhere, if that was the deciding factor in who is Goth rock and who isn't there wouldn't be any Goth Rock bands to refer back to.--Adrift* 22:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In "Siouxsie And The Banshees: The Authorised Biography", by Mark Paytress, 1981, Steve Severin says, "We'd actually described Join Hands as "gothic" at the time of its release, but journalists hadn't picked up on it. Certainly, at that time we were reading a lot of Edgar Allan Poe and writers like that. A song like "Premature Burial" from that album is certainly gothic in its proper sense." --Amber388

Yes, and didn't that comment come back to bite them later? Obviously, as he was referring to a record from 1979, he was not commenting on a "scene" or musical/fashion movement since it hadn't started. However, from such little acorns mighty oaks doth grow. Seeing as SatB are undeniably an influence (and some insist a part of) the UK goth scene it may be worthwhile working that quote into the main body of the article - and let people make of it as they will?LessHeard vanU 21:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Or even better, find the original Banshees quote - and put them both in!LessHeard vanU 21:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• I added T.S.O.L. and Burning Image to the early Califronia examples. Both certainly fit within the confines of first generation American Gothic/Deathrock. --FACT50 20:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Columbine

How much of an influence did the shootings there have on Goth Rock and the overall goth scene? I'm wondering specifically about this sentance. The upshot was that many talented acts toured and recorded from 1995 to the end of the millennium, though their work was overshadowed both in popularity and ultimate influence by bands and fans alike who by-and-large cast off all things "gothic" once the Columbine school shooting happened in 1999. If anything this was probably an american only phenomenon, but to tell the truth, it really didn't seem to me that there was that much of an effect on the scene in America. Sure there were a few more "goths" on TV talk shows maybe, but overall I don't remember an influx of bands and fans casting away all things goth. Any opinions?--Adrift* 22:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

If anything it increased interest in goth music. Many people I think had no idea it existed. Those that were scared by it obviously would have never listened to it anyway. Those interested in "rebellion" or "counter-culture" had a list of new and old bands to go after and a new look which they could use to scare their "authority figures". I'm sure some parents "forbad" their children from listening to it which made many of them more rabid fans.--63.240.135.30 09:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

G**h bands, bless them, nearly always have at least one member who are pretty smart. It was quickly apparent that the protagonists in the Columbine tragedy used firearms to inflict the casualties they did, and not an assortment of amulets and silver headed canes. The fact they were dressed in para-military garb rather than velvet frock jackets give some clue as how they perceived matters.

I know the above sounds flippant, but there were as many people wanting an excuse to censor the goth / deathmetal etc. music genres as there were wanting to preserve the right to bear arms. The choice of the duo in their taste in music was soon realised as more a sympton of their social estrangement (and even that is stating it too strongly, perhaps) as its cause. As Michael Moore pointed out, nobody mentions the couples membership of the local bowling club as a factor. Marylin Manson made some very astute comments about people who listened to his music and the prelevance of serial killers amongst them (no different to those who listened to any other type of music). I applaud the bands who continued to purvey their music in the light of those ridiculous attempts to link homicidal individuals to taste in music types.LessHeard vanU 11:54, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Pre punk influences and anti-New Romanticism

i dont understand why Leonard Cohen isnt listed under this sub section. it makes no logical sense.

There isn't much in the article about the pre Punk influences on Goth music (do you have any idea how difficult it is for me, a Siouxsie and the Banshees fan, to write those words?), certainly in terms of subject matter and themes. I'm thinking particularly of Lou Reeds' Transformer and Berlin albums, Bowies' Low / Heroes / Scary Monsters (And Supercreeps) trilogy especially (although most of his post The Man Who Sold The World work would have some relevance), plus records by The Doors, Leonard Cohen, Scott Walker and the like, dwelling on the themes of doomed romanticism, insanity, suicide, decadence, loneliness etc. often set to stark yet sumptuous arrangements. Nearly all of the early G**h bands included Glam rock numbers in their set, although with darker/heavier arrangements, so these ideas of stylistic rebellion found some resonance in the later scene.

As for musical style predecessors you will have to include some fairly contraversial names, like mid period Pink Floyd, Gong and even Black Sabbath. If you want some prototype thudding hard percussion, booming bass lines and sweeping guitar these guys had it (just ignore the often silly words!) You might also want to listen to the work of some Krautrock bands, especially Can and Tangerine Dream. I would suggest that the major influence of SatB and Joy Division would be the placing of the bass unusually high in the mix, and it often carrying the melody/arrangement.

My other memory of that time is that G**h was very much the antithesis of "New Romanticism", which was very taken with the idea of dressing up for its own sake and generally being rather carefree and shallow in comparison to what had gone on immediately before. Whilst G**h tried to ignore the mainstream, the New Romantics wanted to be the new mainstream. I often thought that G**h would seem to subvert a lot of New Romantic style expressions by adopting a darker variant. Just my take on the scene, though.

Despite the amount I have written here, I am not the person to add it to the article. There seems to be enough editors here to be able to pick out anything they like from the above and add it in as they see fit, and it is your/their area of expertise - not mine. ps. Don't worry about me writing it "G**h", at least I didn't spell it "Goff" like a certain bassist does on his website! LessHeard vanU 01:02, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

That is somewhat addressed by the musical predecessors section farther down the page. But if it needs to be expanded upon elsewhere in the article I'm not necessarily sure how to go about it. WesleyDodds 22:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The New Romantic/Goth split is highlighted in the Goth article. But it seems appropriate that more mention of post-punk influence as well as rock influences on goth should be cited within the article. I haven't been as active as i should be on these articles lately, but I'll try to help edit more as soon as time allows.--Adrift* 23:17, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Musical traits

Anyone else think the diction of the current form of the musical traits section is a bit impenetrable? WesleyDodds 17:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll clean it up later today. I wrote some of it originally and am mostly just wanting to make sure it doesn't devolve into esoterica about single-coil Fender guitars again. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Amber388

Esoterica Devolution the long-awaited debut by Impenetrable Diction... nevermind. sorry.DeadLeafEcho 05:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wave-Gotik-Treffen

This isn't a pure gothic meeting, maybe you can see the term WAVE? WAVE is connected to the german Darkwave movement... --87.122.27.204 02:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW: This festival has nothing to do with the goth rock movement. In the 1990s, gothic rock was a popular genre in germany, a handful of bands played on the Wave-Gotik-Treffen. But not in the present time... most goth rock bands split up in the late 90s. The WGT of today isn't a wave or gothic rock festival. Wave and Gothic rock are dead genres in Germany. --~Menorrhea 14:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Related Genres

I added both Neofolk and Neo-Medieval to the related genres section. Neofolk is an already existing page, but I am working on creating one for Neo-Medieval. I am still learning how to use Wikipedia, so I will create it to my best ability. Anyone who is knowledgable about the genre is free to edit/clean up and help with the page. JanderVK 12:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Concerning WesleyDodds deletion of the link to Neofolk, I wouldn't say it's unrelated. Though, I'm sure many purist Neofolk fans would disagree, Neofolk has had a very notable and noticeable part in the Goth scene for years... I'd go as far as saying since it's inception really. Bands in the Neofolk sub-genre are consistently listened to, played in clubs, and have been reviewed in Goth magazines for years. Its only since the millenium really that "Neofolk" as a side genre has come into its own as a nationalistic, neo-heathen seperate genre. Before that many old school goths listened to and enjoyed bands like Death in June and Current 93. I agree that neo-medieval may be a neologism, but I think maybe the genre neoclassical probably doesn't truly convey what modern type medieval sounding bands have been doing (especially considering the traditional roots of neoclassical music).--Adrift* 06:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I must of missed what this person had to say, but I don't understand why Neo-Medieval was deleted. It is becoming a prominent and established genre of it's own, with many different styles (Gothic, Metal, Industrial etc.). There are bands such as Corvus Corax (traditional) and The Soil Bleeds Black (Gothic) that have been around for over a decade now. I think it has passed the neologism stage (as the word "Goth" once was), and in the realm of it's own being, with bands establishing themselves as being "Neo-Medieval". If someone who possibly might not be as informative about the movement as I am decided to delete it, fine, I will leave it be. I'd rather not start a flame war over it. I just thought it is important enough to include. Just ask the people who put on Wave Gottik Treffen every year... JanderVK 1:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Adrift - Nationalistic? "Neo-heathen?" Come on now! As for the term neo-medieval .. Well, you're probably not going to find that too popular simply because it's not a term commonly used to describe that sort of music. But, yes, I agree that there's a relation, particularly during the 'apocalyptic folk' period and its relation to the German 'dark' scene that eventually lead to the spawning of 'neofolk' music as a distinct spectrum of artists and culture. However, one could easily argue the relation to industrial music is far more apparent. :bloodofox: 11:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

you don't think that the neofolk scene is being redefined by heathenism and that a lot of the fans and musicians of neofolk tend towards nationalism? It certainly appears that way to me. However, I do agree with you about the relationship to industrial... to tell the truth, i don't feel strongly enough about it either way to fight for its inclusion as a link in this article.--Adrift* 01:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Heathenry has always played a large role in neofolk music, especially within the last several years as the genre has matured. I was raising a proverbial eyberow at the odd term "Neo-heathen.." As for nationalism, I really don't think nationalism has much at all to do with neofolk music. Martial music, to some extent with some artists. As for neofolk music, I cannot think of a single band that has any sort of nationalistic implications and that's negating the fact that equating Heathenry and modern nationalism together is extremely dubious. :bloodofox: 21:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Predecessors

Considering Joy Division is a massive influence on gothic rock but most sources don't consider them gothic rock proper, how about we add a paragraph on them to the musical predecessors section? We can probably just cut and paste the paragraph from the Joy Division article on goth here. WesleyDodds 06:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Go for it. --Adrift* 17:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Joy Division were a New Wave / Dark wave band. Most of this article is faked information, in my opinion. With all due respect, I never heard such term, Gothic rock, along the 1980s. We used the term Darkwave. Gothic rock seems to me the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London that are trying to make their POV as a sort of universal truth. The same applies to the words Electronica and IDM: never heard before 2002-2004. Please also see my edits here [2] Dr. Who 01:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is implying that Joy Division was a Goth band, simply that their influence is felt in Goth Rock. And as far as the label "Goth" is concerned, i'm sure youre right that it wasn't very common before about the mid to late 80s. Pete Scathe in his article on the Goth scene said that that most bands in England either considered themselves Positive Punk or (later) Posi-Punk (I can't confirm, i wasn't there, but he's got some verifiable sources to back him up). Rozz Williams is quoted somewhere around here (i think it's in the Deathrock article) that before the Sisters of Mercy got big, Goth used to be called Deathrock in America. Other American musicians have told me they considered even their mid-80s bands Post-Punk, not Goth, Positive Punk, Dark Wave, or Deathrock. So yeah, you're right... it's the nth label, probably tacked on by journalists, for a series of bands that are loosely connected by scene, sound, and fashion. So what? Did the Wiki scribes make up the term? Hardly. I remember it being called "Goth" in the late 80s. Which parts do you think are faked? The great thing about Wiki is that we need to be called out on these things so we can verify our claims and avoid Original Research. As far as label Electronica is concerned, I was working in a music shop here in the mid-west from about 94-97, and we were using that term to describe everything from Moby and Portishead, to Elastica and Poe (of all things). As far as IDM goes, I agree, I never really heard the term till around... 2002 or so, but that's not to say that the term wasn't used somewhere before then. Just because I never heard it used doesn't mean it never happened, and if someone else can verify that it has, why argue?--Adrift* 03:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Joy Division isn't New Wave. They're consistently labeled as post-punk, to the point where the joint entry on Joy Division/New Order from Rolling Stone's 1983 encyclopedia of rock music refers to Joy Division as "post-punk" and New Order as "New Wave". WesleyDodds 10:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of sources, I'll at some point in the future get to citing material from Simon Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984 and the authorized Siouxsie and the Banshees biography. Both describe goth's roots from post-punk, and both establish that the terms have been in use since the early 80s. WesleyDodds 10:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Please remove Gary Numan, he had nothing to do with the Goth at that stage; though in recent years he writes lyrics and music pertaining to modern industrial and goth scenes, in late 1970s he was labelled postpunk or "electronic rock". Yes, that's true that Joy division were postpunk, but many "dark" listeners regarded them as (influential-)part of their scene. Actually I've found a source dating 1985 regarding the use of the term Goth and Neo Goth (?). I want to explain better my doubts: I am not trying to say that any of the term Goth, Gothic Rock, Dark, Dark Wave, Dark New Wave is faked or invented here, obviously, I just would like people and wikipedians to search further information regarding the chance that some terms are or were used just as mere stylistic adjectives, and are/were not referred to a Music genre in term of music theory. In other words, in this case, what's the difference between Gothic rock and Dark(wave)? To me it seems that in 1980/89 they were the same scene and style.Dr. Who 14:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

The use of Darkwave is more expansive, incorporating bands like Depeche Mode and Cocteau Twins. WesleyDodds 17:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be great if you could cross-link both these articles and explain this matter. In the meanwhile I've found this database [3].Dr. Who 22:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I bought two books. The first book (called Die Gothics) says, that dark wave is the original dark music of the 70s / 80s, mostly rock music with bands such as Joy Division, Bauhaus, Siouxsie & The Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters Of Mercy, Clan Of Xymox etc. The second book (called Gothic- und Dark Wave-Lexikon says that darkwave is an undefinable mixture of postpunk, batcave, new wave and new romantic. Haha, this topic is really funny... --Menorrhea 23:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed music is also fun; it's ok if someone is going to improve these article, though they just need some minor rework, but please, I hope none will come just to say nonsense such as "merge", "redirect", "delete" (of course I am not referring to you). Here in my county recently (ehr.., 15 years ago) the Christian Death came for a concert, but I didnt go to the show becouse those days I was only into Jazz-Fusion and New age ambient. Uh, I just remembered that some works of The Residents and Tuxedomoon were seen as influential by many listeners and musicians along the 1980s. Good work.Dr. Who 23:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Missing Bands

Early goth/dark wave bands in Germany

• Geisterfahrer (Schatten voraus, 1980)
• Xmal Deutschland (Succubus Incubus, 1982)
• Leningrad Sandwich (Heat, 1982)
• Malaria! (Emotion, 1982)
• Mona Mur (Jeszcze Polska, 1982) (Co-operation with Einstürzende Neubauten - See this funny video!)
• Belfegore (Belfegore, 1984)
• Marquee Moon (Beyond The Pale, 1985) (http://www.crepuscle.com/marqueemoon/marquee.htm)
• Remain In Silence (Monument, 1985)
• Stimmen der Stille (Morgenstern, 1987)

Early goth bands in Spain, France and Greece

• Ana Curra (http://users.servicios.retecal.es/asegura/)
• Parálisis Permanente (http://usuarios.lycos.es/quierosersanta/)
• Los Humillados
• Neva (http://thearchive.free.fr/arch-neva.htm)
• Villa 21 (Ghost On The Move, 1983)
• Metro Decay (Ipervasi, 1984)
• South Of No North (Lacrimae Christ!, 1985)

I removed Front 242, Die Krupps and the Einstürzende Neubauten. All of these bands were post-industrial/post-punk groups. Front 242 were influenced by DAF, Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire etc. Die Krupps were an avantgarde/post-industrial group in those days. They are absolutely goth-untypical... --~Menorrhea 15:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Again on the terms

Actually Joy Division were a New Wave / Dark wave band. Most of this article is faked information, in my opinion. With all due respect, I never heard such term, Gothic rock, along the 1980s. We used the term Darkwave. Gothic rock seems to me the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London that are trying to make their POV as a sort of universal truth. The same applies to the words Electronica and IDM: never heard before 2002-2004. Please also see my edits here [4] Dr. Who 01:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

What complete nonsense. The main origin of Goth as a term for the sub-culture is commonly agreed to have been Ian Astbury mocking Andi Sexgang, though there are other influences [[5]]. Gothic Rock proper came from the UK scene of 1983, particularly around the Batcave club. Arguing that the term that was used at the time, in the place, where Gothic Rock was born is "the Nth invention of a group of music web journalists from London" (oh, I wonder who you're talking about) is the most ridiculous crap I've heard. Gothic Rock is a UK thing, there has been a constant scene in London since 1983. There are people still in the scene who have been part of it for 23 years. I do, however, agree that Joy Division were not a Goth band, they were clearly part of the post-punk movement that ran parallel to the Industrial Records scene. Donnacha 10:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that goth was an UK thing. But bands like Alien Sex Fiend said that they didn't knew what gothic is. IMO goth was a little movement in Leeds or London about 1983 until 1986. Many groups from the batcave club didn't use the term gothic, e.g. the Virgin Prunes hated this term. On the European continent there were parallel movements in France and in Germany (including bands such as Malaria!, Xmal Deutschland, Geisterfahrer etc.). They never used the british term "goth(ic)", but mostly "wave". In Germany "goth" as a term came into use in 1992/93. --Menorrhea 12:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot of bands didn't like the term goth. Some felt it was limiting, and it was also used as an insult. Nevetheless, they still fit the style. WesleyDodds 12:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Not liking the term is one of the main cliches of the Goth scene - There's nothing more Goth than insisting you're not a Goth. Uncle Andy (Andrew Eldritch) is one of the key figures in this, he loves slagging of the scene, his fans and they, in turn, love slagging him right back and calling him Goth. The Virgin Prunes were a different case, they were around before '83, were highly experimental and disliked what they saw as the lack of imagination of the new wave of Goth bands in the UK. Anyway, this article is about Gothic Rock, so it's always going to be difficult. The term Gothic started out as a simple adjective used by and for some bands like the Banshees and Joy Division. This does not make them Gothic Rock. It then became a term of mockery in the London scene, where the more serious "Positive Punk" (particularly Southern Death Cult) bands mocked the more stylised and outrageous bands like Specimen or Sex Gang Children and their fans. Then it became the term for the scene (ironically including the Positive Punk bands), then it grew to become a definable sub-culture, particularly as it merged with the US Death Rock scene. The music is notoriously difficult to define because it is the music associated with the sub-culture rather than a specific musical style. Donnacha 13:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Goth as a music style is pretty easy to define. This does a pretty good job of it:

Standard musical fixtures included scything guitar patterns, high-pitched post-Joy Division basslines that usurped the melodic role, beats that were either hypnotically dirgelike or "tribal" in some ethnically indeterminate Burundi-meets-Apache way, and vocals that were either operatic and Teutonic or deep, droning alloys of Jim Morrison and Ian Curtis. (Reynolds, 353)

It's when you try to define gothic rock by the subculture that things get tricky. WesleyDodds 13:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

LOL, you'll note there's quite a few eithers and ors in ther! It also misses out the innovative use of repetitive electronic beats (early Sisters of Mercy), the inclusion of "world music" elements (early Dead Can Dance), the screechy vocals of Rozz Williams and the likes, etc. So many different bands have been called Gothic because they became part of the sub-culture rather than the fact that they soundalike. Sheesh, The Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus and The Fields of the Nephilim - three of the iconic Goth bands - do not sound particularly alike. Donnacha 14:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

That's getting into individual tics. The Sisters, Bauhaus, and Fields of the Nephilim may sound different, but it's more that they're coming from a similar grounding with different takes. Like how blues artists can have easily-identifiable unique styles yet can still be considered blues. And as for Dead Can Dance, that's getting into the whole 4AD goth-descended thing that's since been labeled dream pop.

Certainly the subculture comes into it; the music and the culture are more or less intimately tied. But it's still a definable style of music. People have done it. Just because people listen to it in the goth scene doesn't mean that's the primary way to define it. If you're looking for music from the goth scene, check out the music section in goth subculture. WesleyDodds 14:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I was being a little argumentative to prove a point. That said, the original Batcave and Death Rock sub-cultures pretty much defined what became the original guidelines to the music. But, back to the original poster, Dr. Who hasn't a clue (hey, that rhymes). Donnacha 16:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Gothrock and the goth culture are 2 seperate things. The question is not whether or not goths listen to it, or whether it makes you think of the dark ages or gothic fiction literature. Joy Division was so influential that many or all gothrock bands have clearly been influenced by Joy Division. So even if the term was not used by Joy Division they are part of what everyone refers to when they say goth rock. If there was no Joy Division, and a new band was born now that happened to sound like Joy Division, they would be catagorized goth rock. If someone said let me hear what Goth Rock sounds like, you could let them listen to Joy Division, without giving them the wrong impression. Thats all general readers of an encyclopedia are looking for.TheDarknessVisible 21:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Clean up

I cleaned up some pretty broken grammar in this article, and fixed some factual errors. Also adding alink to Coldwave (the french centered atmospheric guitar genre, not the U.S. Industrial/Metal hybrid) to the related genres list. --FACT50 20:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Related Genres

Rather than have a revert battle over whether to include industrial and EBM in related genres, I figured I'd open it up to discussion. The current logic being used to excluse them is that they do not share musical characteristics. A.) I disagree that they do not share musical characteristics, as per Diary of Dreams, Dream Disciples, Cruxshadows, ThouShaltNot, Tear Garden, Cyan, Shock Therapy, and Car Crash International. Furthermore, their musical heritages are deeply entwined, especially if one looks to strong relationships between Neubauten/Nick Cave, Joy Division/Psychic TV, Legendary Pink Dots/Skinny Puppy, Christian Death/Nocturnal Emissions. And I haven't even hit the late 80s yet, chronologically. B.) Are stylistic similarities really the basis for related genres? I would call the early baroque a related genre to the second Viennese school, even though they have effectively no stylistic similarities, but they take part in the same musical tradition. Similarly, rock 'n' roll and jazz are related genres, as they feed off of one another and one was impossible without the other.

To be frank, I'm leaning towards the inclusion of both EBM and Industrial in the related music genres-- primarily for the same reasons that you stated. Though I can see why some people would have trouble including them. Take industrial for instance-- that genre has evolved to the point where it now has an assortment of sub-genres, one of which is devoted to bands with a very metal sound. And apparently, many rivet-heads have taken to calling the early industrial bands (the bands that were truly close to the goth bands of the same era) something along the lines of "experimental noise". Even though when I think of industrial, I think of bands like Cabaret Voltaire or Einsturzende Neubauten, alot of people associate industrial with the more "industrial metal" bands-- which to me, sound nothing like the industrial bands of yore. There's also the fact that Industrial music and EBM have FAR more similarities to Darkwave (which has its own article here), and has evolved to the point where it is distinct from goth rock as we know it. Nonetheless, I still think it wouldn't be wrong to list Industrial and EBM as related subgenres. Any other opinions? I'd like to see more reasons to back up either claim. Inclusion or no inclusion? --CatZilla 23:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think a purist attitude toward goth rock is elitist, outdated, and prescriptive. Musically AND culturally, I think definitely industrial, and maybe EBM deserve to be listed here under related genres. If others disagree, I welcome their viewpoints. Let's hear it. Amber388 01:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about the music genre gothic rock, EBM and Industrial have NOTHING to do characteristically with this form of music. Thus they don't belong on this article. If this was an article about gothic subculture, it may be worth mentioning how EBM pushed gothic rock out of the clubs... but it isn't, its the equivelent of listing "Punk rock" as a related form of the "progressive rock" article. - Deathrocker 09:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I understand where you're coming from, and am more or less willing to grant that EBKM is a stretch; by the time its modern incarnation came into being, the dialogue between goth and industrial had more or less had its effects. I really do maintain that industrial belongs though, for all the reasons stated in my first paragraph on the issue. The comingling of genres since the earliest days of both goth and industrial is undeniable. As I recognize this is a loaded issue for some, I'll not be making any edits along these lines myself, but I'd have no complaints if others added industrial back.

And FYI, the edit by metallicker was not a sock puppet of mine. I do not know who that user is, but s/he seems just to have lifted my edit summary. I promise, I don't use sockpuppets, and I hope that my ~750 wikipedia edits thus far demonstrate my integrity as an editor. No hard feelings. Amber388 12:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I know Metallicker isn't a sockpuppet of yours. But he is suspected of being a sockpuppet account and is making malicious edits in regards to my edits because I opened a case on him. Sorry if there was any confusion with that.

If this was an article on darkwave then industrial and EBM would fit as related styles. But industrial is not related to gothic rock... the only thing they have in common is that they are forms of post-punk (as is indie, alternative rock, etc).. but this is an article on purely gothic rock, not post punk. - Deathrocker 12:56, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Industrial music can't be a form of post-punk. The first industrial artists were formed in 1974. The stage of industrial music (1975-1981) has nothing to do with punk or goth. There were a few overlaps within the post-industrial movement, that's all (e.g. Alien Sex Fiend mingled goth, psychobilly and post-industrial sounds). The post-industrial movement had begun with the split of Throbbing Gristle in 1981. ~Menorrhea 17:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There were quite a lot of bands we consider "postpunk" who were around pre-punk. Pere Ubu, Devo, Suicide, Wire, to name a few. To be sure, the link between industrial and punk itself is limited, but postpunk and industrial were in heavy dialogue, especially by the time that industrial became a genre of pop music (early 80s). Industrial indeed has different roots than goth, but they have walked hand in hand intermittantly for more than twenty-five years. Amber388 19:13, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

post-industrial, not industrial. That's a difference. Suicide was electropunk. --~Menorrhea 19:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Those terms don't seem reliable. Suicide is definitely often classified as post-punk. WesleyDodds 21:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the specific "relationship" required to be listed under Related Genres. It seems like a largely pointless section. If it doesn't document exactly what the relationship is, we are going to simply get into revert wars. How is this information of any use without documenting the relationship? TheDarknessVisible 19:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Gothic Beauty

Gothic beauty on their own web page include the following: "underground fashion & pop culture: Established in 2000, Gothic Beauty covers Underground fashion, lifestyle and events, as well as music and entertainment. Independently published four times a year, Gothic Beauty has grown into America's largest Gothic publication."

Its a goth music magazine among other things. It belongs in the article. TheDarknessVisible 00:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel that it does. It does not focus on gothic rock music. Most of the bands that it covers are not gothic rock. They are either synthpop, nu-metal,industrial or EBM. There are differences between the genres. If it focused more on gothic rock then I wouldn't have a problem with it's inclusion. Also, it primarily focuses on fashion, not music. Just because a band is called goth doesn't mean that they are gothic rock. There is a difference because gothic rock is a sub genre of goth. The term does not cover all 'goth' bands.- Crescentia

The section on 3rd generation does not focus on goth rock. it specifically says GOTH SCENE. And Gothic beauty was already present (by consensus) in the paragraph. You only noticed that I added a URL. It should not be removed without a consensus now, simply because I added a url.

With that said, Gothic Beauty would be happy to interview any goth rock bands. Although you are right, it doesn't exclude other things 'goth'. As long as the entire section talks about goth scene and and implies it is talking about "goth fanzines" rather than gothrock fanzines, then then Gothic Beauty is appropriate. It has multiple music articles in each issue. The last issue I bought in addition to some interviews with bands inclued reviews of like 100 CD's. No.. its not all goth rock. In fact most isn't. But its all goth, and it is as related as cruxshadows, and voltaire. The problem is NOT the inclusion of Gothic Beauty. Is is the inclusion of the information about the goth scene. If the section talks about the goth scene it is suspicious to include certain elements which are not goth rock and then exclude gothic beauty.

I propose Gothic Beauty (its been there a while) until there is consensus as to what exactly this section is REALLY talking about. If it is talking only about goth rock, then mentioning specific non-gothrock bands by name is misleading. Also, if it only refers to goth rock, it should NOT purport to describe "the goth scene", because it misleads the reader into thinking gothrock is more prevalent than it really is. Do you know of a pure gothrock scene? Most goth scenes are mixed musical styles as the section already implies by mentioning industrial (it doesn't bother listing specific industrial bands). Gothic Beauty is a mixed music magazine which includes coverage of the entire goth scene, including goth music scene, gothic literature, gothic fashion, everything gothic in fact. Some consensus was reached to include it. It should not now be deleted without a consensus on reaching a policy for what exactly defines a "goth fanzine" or what that entire sections is REALLY intending to describe... The Goth Scene? or Gothrock? TheDarknessVisible 20:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you happen to work for Gothic Beauty magazine? You said I quote 'Gothic Beauty would be happy to interview any goth rock bands'. If you do work for them that is a clear conflict of interest and spam. Also, in many circles, Gothic Beauty is considered substandard when it comes to it's content. Many of the bands that they cover are not goth at all and it is geared towards mostly a teen crowd. The magazine is called Gothic Beauty not Gothic Rock or Gothic Music.-Crescentia

I do not work for gothic beauty. I have not heard any reliable reports of it being substandard. Can you quote a reliable source? I bought an issue of Gothic Beauty at a music store, HMV. Gothic Rock is beautiful so I dont see any contradiction there. In any event. I do not work for them. And if I did I would not be arguing in favour of the inclusion of orkus would I? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheDarknessVisible (talk • contribs) 21:43, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Orkus Magazine

I'm adding a reference to Orkus magazine. Its a gothic rock magazine among other things.TheDarknessVisible 00:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is absolutely no goth rock magazine... --~Menorrhea 14:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is not a goth magazine. I think you are having some problems with the definition of what gothic rock is. It is not goth metal, EBM, synthpop, etc. It is a sub genre. --~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crescentia (talk • contribs) 15:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

Orkus is clearly a goth magazine. Most or all of the bands interviewed are part of goth scene. As to whether it is a gothrock magaze is a seperate question.

What percentage of coverage must be devoted to goth rock? Is the theshold 50% or more?

Cresentia you need to stop worrying about these 2 magazines. The problem is the entire paragraph:

"Though the goth scene has diminished in popularity and its record sales have fallen off, there are still events, labels, and publications supporting it. Dancing Ferret Discs, Projekt Records, and Metropolis Records are releasing goth music in the American market, and Cherry Red has been reissuing early goth rock recordings in Europe. The genre's most popular live events, such as the German Wave Gotik Treffen, Zillo festivals, the British Whitby Gothic Weekends, and NYC's Drop Dead Festival & Chamber's DAMF still draw tens of thousands of fans. Some of the pioneering goth zines or magazines have transitioned to the web, including My Gothic Heart, Asleep By Dawn, and Gothic.net. Others are still available in print editions, such as Drop Dead Magazine, Gothic Beauty[3], Orkus and Virus."

it says "goth scene", "Goth Music" "German Wave Gotik Treffen" "goth zines or magazines" "Gothic.net".... THOSE ARE GOTH CULTURE terms/events/sources, not gothrock per se. I dont know the other events mentioned off the top of my head, but I'm willing to bet some of those are ALSO not pure goth rock. The paragraph talks about goth culture, it only says goth rock once to say Cherry Red is REISSUING old gothic rock. (sugesting new gothicrock doesn't exist) Gothic Beauty and Orkus are BOTH "Goth zines or magazines" German Wave Gotik Treffen is not goth rock events but rather a GOTH CULTURE event.

lets stop worrying about the 2 magazines... for now please. Lets discuss the entire paragraph... and the entire section. As they stand they encompass more than goth rock. It is illogical to jump to the last sentence of the section and suddenly impose a different standard of purity. I agree on what you are saying, they are not gothrock magazines. They are goth magazines. Which is exactly what this paragraph purports to be telling the general reader. I can't in good conscience let the reader believe the only 2 goth magazines are drop dead and virus because it would be a lie. Perhaps a sentence indicating those 2 specialize in gothrock while the others cover the wider goth scene including other styles of goth music, would be better. Their mere omission does nothing to fix the fundamental problems with the section but is unfair to them. They are both very notable magazines with high production values.TheDarknessVisible 20:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

DropdeadMagazine purpose to be "Goth Punk Psycho"?? is that gothrock? Virus purports to be Gothic, EBM, Electro, Industrial, Metal, Alternative, Dark Wave, Pop, Emo

it has an article "PAradise Lost to support Nightwish".... gothrock??? I think someone is "having some problems with the definition of what gothic rock is."

What exactly is the reason to exclude Orkus? It claims to be Gothic Romantic Industrial Electro We have no standards and we apply them willy nilly. we should just delete ALL these magazines and say there is no gothrock magazines anymore or else include them and say that gothrock is covered under the broader envelope of the entire goth subculture.TheDarknessVisible 21:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Orkus is no goth music magazine. Its a magazine for different kinds of music and different subcultures. You'll find genres such as elektro, power noise, goa trance, ambient, metal, synthpop etc. It's mainly a music magazine of the dark culture, in Germany called Schwarze Szene. --~Menorrhea 13:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I took Orkus off once again. Two against one is a majority. -Crescentia

Jim Morrison and David Bowie

according to pete scathe's webpage the term "gothic rock" was first applied to Jim Morrison. David Bowie apparently called his music gothic in 1974 (I think I found that in the gothic bible. . but perhaps on pete scathe's page also). shouldn't this be in the article somehow? TheDarknessVisible 17:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Not really, because there's a distinction between using "gothic rock" as a adjective and as a noun. Even many articles on early goth bands used "gothic" more as an adjective; looking at my collection of NME reprint articles on goth it begins to be used as a noun (meaning to name a disinct genre) around 1985. WesleyDodds 09:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems, that "Gothic" as a genre term came in same time popular like the term Darkwave. In Germany, all of these gothic rock bands were called Dark Wave until the early 1990s. After that we used the term Gothic Rock. But in the Germany of today, Gothic Rock is unfortunately a dead genre since the end of the 1990s... displaced by Metal music and cyber-kiddies. --~Menorrhea 04:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The Doors were the first band ever referred to as “gothic rock”. I’ve added that into the article now with a source. I don’t think it can be argued that they’re actually a gothic rock band in the same sense that Siouxsie & the Banshees or Bauhaus are but its an important piece of information and they are certainly one of the largest influences on the genre.

The exact quote on the Doors from 1967 by John Stickney was; “FOUR DOORS TO THE FUTURE: GOTHIC ROCK IS THEIR THING”[6]

- Daddy Kindsoul 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I just read that source from that john stikney guy. I may be ignorant of some things but does that really count as a reliable source? Who is that guy? It was from the Williams College News? I dunno after reading it and looking over the website it came from.... I hardly doubt that that constitutes being able to claim that the Doors Was labeled as a goth rock band. Influenced goth rock? Of coarse.... but labeled as goth rock? This source seems like a stretch to me XXLegendXx (talk) 05:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

That just says that the phrase "goth rock" was applied to them, not that they're part of the genre as it exists today. (The "deathrock" article, likewise, notes that some rock'n'roll songs from the '50s about the tragic deaths of teenagers were called "death rock" in their day.) Maybe wording should be changed to make it clearer.--Halloween jack (talk) 15:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Neogoth and Electrogoth are nominated for deletion

If you have any information on these articles (Neogoth or Electrogoth) or topics, please go to their respective pages join in the deletion discussion, or help to improve the articles.TheDarknessVisible 22:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Pre-history

I've started to turn the "historic influences" part into a pre-history, rather than it just having bullet point artists. At this point, I've got as far as Bowie and quite a bit more of the influences needs adding, particually...

• Lou Reed - Transformer (produced by Bowie) & Berlin
• Iggy Pop - The Idiot (produced by Bowie)
• punk rock movement (particually mentioning The Damned, Siouxsie & the Banshees & UK Decay's roots in that)
• Joy Division
• Psychedelic Furs (on Sisters and mid-80s gothic rock) - Daddy Kindsoul 13:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

good work. --~Menorrhea 12:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Including Gothic Metal In Related Genres

I don't think Gothic Metal belongs in the related genres section for the simple fact that it has nothing to do with Gothic Rock. In fact back in the 80's, when Gothic Rock was at its peak, metal fans could not stand people who listened to Gothic Rock, or Gothic Rock itself. I was there, so I remember the constant problems between the two different groups of people. To include it would ignore the constant animosity that metal fans had for Gothic Rock fans and bands. If a couple of musicians in the Gothic Metal genre say that they were influenced by one or two Gothic Rock bands does not mean that the two genres are related.-Crescentia

Are you talking about subcultures or music scenes? Both are different things. The problem is that you don't know the developments of the 1990s. My Dying Bride, Paradise Lost and Tiamat were not really Doom/Death bands. They were Doom/Death/Gothic bands with a strong influence of end-1980s gothic rock such as Fields of the Nephilim. In the 1990s, Paradise Lost released the album "Gothic". In those days, Paradise Lost were fans of The Sisters of Mercy (i'll scan the interviews, but it's in german language). Since 1993 german gothic rock bands such as Dreadful Shadows, Secret Discovery, Love Like Blood, Sepulcrum Mentis etc. started to blend their gothic rock sound with metal guitars. Dreadful Shadows are one of the first gothic metal bands in germany, founded in 1993. I don't like the gothic metal music, but it's a fact that gothic metal is a mixture of metal and gothic rock. --~Menorrhea 12:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

But the issue is this.... Are such relationships bi-directional? This is an article on Gothic Rock.. not on Gothic Metal. And while gothic metal some has sylistic origins inside gothic rock, does this cause gothic rock to have a relationship towards a kind of music that didn't even exist at the time gothic rock became what it is. Gothic Rock was NOT influenced by gothic metal. So while gothic metal may be related to gothic rock, gothic rock is NOT related to gothic metal. And this "related genres" section should only be about styles that Gothic Rock is related to. How many gothic rock bands were ever gothic metal bands? When gothic metal bands start making gothrock and influencing other gothrock bands, then I would say gothic metal has developed a relationship. Until then gothrock is not related to gothic metal.

We could go and stick "futurepop" as a related genre to baroque classical music under this kindof backwards relationship model. However every music historian will tell you, notwithstanding how many futurepop bands steal from baroque, baroque is unrelated to futurepop. TheDarknessVisible 16:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The complete gothic rock bands of the 1990s are metal-related. Angina Pectoris, Fields of the Nephilim, The Sisters of Mercy, etc. Today you can't find any gothic rock group without metal sounds. The pure gothic rock genre died in the early 1990s. And yes, it's a "bi-directional relationship" since the middle of the 1990s. German bands such Lacrimosa used speed metal elements and co-operated with the thrash metal band Kreator, Das Ich released the hit "Die Liebe" in co-operation with the death metal/power metal group Atrocity etc. In Europe there are no limits between the "modern" gothic rock scene and the gothic metal culture. Here, it is a big fat blend. --~Menorrhea 17:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence of your statement is untrue. And none of the other bands you cite being influenced by gothic metal are goth rock bands at all.TheDarknessVisible 20:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Aha, where are the non-metal-influenced gothic rock bands? Hmm? Do you think, that The Birthday Massacre or Switchblade Symphony are gothic rock bands? *lol* They're a genre crossover, nothing more. They're not really gothic rock. And Lacrimosa has definitely Gothic Rock songs. Love Like Blood, Secret Discovery were definitely gothic rock bands with a Gothic metal influence. --~Menorrhea 08:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The question is not 'where are the non-metal-influenced goth bands?'. The question is 'where are the metal influenced goth bands?' and who is the reliable independant researcher who concludes that goth is influenced by gothic metal? And yes Switchblade Symphony is goth. Other's include Amy's Arms, Battz in the Belfry, Corpse Cabaret, All Gone Dead, DoppleGanger, Mors Syphilitica, Autumns Grey Solace, London After Midnight, Parade, Masochistic Religion, The Frozen Autumn, Siderartica... Those are some I know off the top of my head, and I can think of others if I browse through my music collection. There are also some that would be goth but they've invented wacky new genres specifically to avoid being identified as such, Dresden Dolls for instance. But ultimately the question is not whether or not any non-metal influenced gothrock bands exist. The burden of evidence is with the person wishing to add or keep the information. whoever wants to claim goth is related to gothic metal needs to provide attribution for that claim.TheDarknessVisible 17:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The Frozen Autumn is a simple darkwave group, Switchblade Symphony was mainly a trip hop group, on their debut there was a gothic rock influence, nothing more. Autumn's Grey Solace is more ethereal/dreampop. Mors Syphilitica have a clear metal influence etc.

"The question is 'where are the metal influenced goth bands?"

- http://www.discogs.com/release/654927 this is an album of Love Like Blood with cover versions of Tiamat and Paradise Lost.

- http://www.vanrichter.net/interviews/gug_int21.html Interview with Girls under Glass. Their favs were Paradise Lost and Type O Negative

- http://www.myspace.com/theillusionfades A page of The Illusion Fades, one of the most popular Gothic rock bands from Greece... now they play Gothic metal. Look for their influences on this page.

- Interview with the gothic rock group Sepulcrum Mentis. They were influenced by Moonspell.

- http://www.reptyle.de/index2.htm The german Gothic rock group Reptyle. They're influenced by Tiamat and Paradise Lost. there you can listen to the metal influence. --~Menorrhea 21:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

If a couple of new gothrock bands may be influenced by gothic metal. that isn't sufficient to catagorize the entire music style as related. These would merely be fusion bands belonging to 2 genres. I am aware of at least 1 other band which fuses trip hop with goth rock: Eyebutterfly. The exitence of fusion bands doesn't create a genre relation. There must be a relatively large scale relation detectable in (I would say) the majority of the music labeled by that style.

darkwave and ethereal *are* goth. but I wont get into that debate since I know the germans define the genres differently. I'll concede frozen autumn is "darkwave" since its an italian band. Mors Syphilita may have metal influence (although I don't hear it in the 5 songs I've heard).

if it were up to me I would delete the entire "related genre" section. The history section can clearly indicate any relation specifically where they occur and how. the related genre section is an ambiguous and useless catchall, and as such should only contain the most widespread and predominant overarching relationships. A sentence such as "Since 2000 some bands such as Reptyle, xxxx and yyy have been influenced by Gothic metal" is more accurate and meaningful and can go directly into the main text. However any such bands would need to be fairly influential bands in the goth rock style in order to be relevant to the entire goth rock article.

this way the article does not read like all goth rock is related to all gothic metal. I think that is the primary dispute, because clearly that vast majority of goth rock was made a long time ago and PREDATES gothic metal. I would be in support of information claiming certain bands are related when those bands come out and claim to be related. And as long at they are notable bands in the goth rock genre.. so be it. that seems non-controversial to me. TheDarknessVisible 00:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

first - Goth metal is santimental doom-death metal mixed with goth rock elements. second - “In Europe there are no limits between the "modern" gothic rock scene and the gothic metal culture” this is absolutely Right.Here goths listen to goth rock as well as goth metal.Also many goth rock bands use metal sounds in their music. In conclusion - the two genres are related. Xr 1 23:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Gothic rock bands use guitars so they must be using metal sounds? No. Gothic rock came from PUNK not metal, so it has nothing to do with metal. Just because a few bands in a genre,gothic metal, say that they are influenced by gothic rock does not make those bands themselves gothic rock. Well HERE gothic metal is not played in the majority of the clubs, and the two genres are more distinct from one another. Also, there is no mention of gothic metal in the article. If gothic metal was connected with gothic rock one would think it would be mentioned.Crescentia 21:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

well US is not the only place on the Earth... However let's focuse ot gothic metal. gothic metal have it's roots in doom-death, but it'is different, right?and it's different beacause some doom-death bands mixed it with gothic rock,dark romantic themes etc. you may listen to paradise lost's first album 'lost paradise' and then to their second - gothic and you'll see a progression And then to draconian times- really gothic metal album. Then you'll understand what I mean. also the article is about the history of gothic rock.Metal do not helped the creation of this genre - it's not here. And gothic metal came out in the middle 90s.But that doesn't mean goth do not helped the formation of gothic metal. In conclusion-They are related. Goths may not like it but that's the truth. Also - glam rock is related to glam metal, progressice rock is related to progressive metal.Yeah they are METAL subgenres but are related to this rock subgenres. So although gothic metal is metal it can be (and it is) related to goth rock. Look, I understand you know a LOT about goth rock, but I don't think you know and actually listen to gothic metal. But I do. Xr 1 12:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It was decided on the Gothic Subculture page that gothic metal shouldn't be included in the 'see also' section, so why should this page be any different. I have never seen a single quote from a gothic metal band that they were influenced by gothic rock. I always hear people claim that but I have yet to see proof of it. It shouldn't matter if I listen to gothic metal or not since this is not a metal page. If gothic metal is related to gothic rock then that should be mentioned on the gothic metal page and not here. You yourself stated that gothic metal had nothing to do with the formation of gothic rock, so it shouldn't be included on this page at all. There are several other genres such as new wave, alternative, etc... that could also be linked to gothic rock but they are not included. Why? Because they had nothing to do with the formation of gothic rock. The US AND England may not be the only places on earth, but those two places are where gothic rock/deathrock originated and where gothic metal is quite seperated from gothic rock. I am taking gothic metal down again because of the reasons I have stated. If you nwant it included on you country's 'gothic rock' Wiki page feel free to, but it does not belong here.Crescentia 13:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"If gothic metal is related to gothic rock then that should be mentioned on the gothic metal page and not here" well it is included.=]And if you search about paradise lost you'll see they were fans of the sisters of mercy and fields of the nephilim. but Related means that there is a connection between something and something else...if under related it is meant 'helped for creting the genre' then ok - it shouldn't be included. p.s.I wasn't logged ..again :]

nihilism and existentialism

can anyone provide any reliable and independant sources saying that gothic rock music is actually about existential philosophy and nihilism as the article says? This reads like original research to me? TheDarknessVisible 22:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, those do play a role in the goth subculture but as far as the music being "about" it that depends on the song. Like any other music, songs are about many different things.

but this is all original research. There are a few people who have made it a lifelong passion to listen to and study goth music. Mick Mercer for example. Does he say goth music is about existentialism and nihilism? One dictionary I read said the lyrics are often "mystical". That is not existential or nihilist in the least. Much of the lyrics in my opinion are mystical and fatalist. but fatalism is not the same as nihilism. and are certainly not the same as existentialism. anyway... it still seems like OR.TheDarknessVisible 16:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

In a flat field was about being in a boring place with nothing to do. What is mystical about that? The music and the subculture go hand in hand, but the lyrics can be about anything. What makes it goth rock is how you present it, and it is a very artistic and liberal subculture that encourages one to express themselves no matter what that be.

No mention of AFI?

Surely AFI deserves a mention in the "1995-Present" section...? Perhaps not so much their recent stuff, but their music from the Black Sails/All Hallows/Art of Drowning era is probably the first thing I think of when someone says "Gothic Rock." It's got undeniable punk sound (Black Sails especially), dark harmonic chanting choruses, and angsty lyrics complete with gothic imagery. And hell, Davey even had his own Hot Topic-exclusive clothing line... --Lode Runner 01:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this a joke? - The Daddy 17:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, kiddies of today think that every pop music shit is gothic rock. It's the same crap like the quarrel about HIM and The 69 Eyes. They never played gothrock. --Diluvien 23:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, I'm not talking about their last two albums. (If you want to insult Sing the Sorrow or Decemberwhatever, go right ahead--they really don't sound like the same band anymore.)

The Hot Topic comment probably gave the wrong impression... this was a comment on image, not content. I don't like the vast majority of the shit they play in Hot Topic, I despise emo and I really don't like AFI's new album at all... but Black Sails and Drowning were fucking godlike (and for the record, they were released on an indy label prior to AFI's mainstream success, so "pop" is definitely a misnomer.)

I'm not talking about HIM or any other puerile emo band--just listen to the first 5 tracks from Black Sails if you don't believe me. They were NOTHING like they are today. Listen to the All Hallows EP, listen to "The Despair Factor"/"Ever and a Day"/"A Story At Three"/"Wester" from Drowning (but for the love of god, NOT "Days Of The Phoenix"... why they chose this for their first single/music video I'll never understand, because it's easily Drowning's weakest song) and tell me with a straight face that it's on par with goddamned HIM.

If you don't think it qualifies as "Gothic Rock" please, state your case (I myself am not a diehard music junkie, so perhaps the label has certain agreed-upon implications which do not fit AFI), but comparisons to bland pop bands are just laughable. Tone, tempo, vocals, song structure and complexity aren't even remotely similar. Do you think that even their pre-Black Sails stuff (which, btw, is widely acknowledged as 100% punk--rather uninspired, vanilla punk, IMO, but punk nonetheless) is pop? Are either of you two even aware of AFI's pre-Sing the Sorrow work?

An analogy: it's like calling *all* of Metallica's work (not just their recent crap) lame, pseudo-thrash pop. It's just... ignorant. I'm not saying you absolutely can't criticize their Ride the Lightning-Black Album era work, but you'd got to be goddamn crazy to lump it in with the steaming pile that is the Load-St. Anger era. And the same goes with AFI's earlier work... --Lode Runner 09:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I would go to the AFI page, Lode Runner I was talking on the discussion page although that was mainly about the distinction between horror punk and this term some guy made up called "goth punk" which is pretty made up. There are some samples on this page that greatly convey the kind of sound gothic rock has, you should listen to them. Than listen to some AFI. I think you will see why AFI is not really gothic rock. It is no personal bias. They seem to lack that "eighties" sound as well; you can just hear the contemporary influences, whereas songs like this corrosion have that eighties sound. It was talking on the discussion page of the new manson album and they are trying to call that one goth rock too. But I think that just because it is "softer" does not mean it sounds gothic rock. Gothic rock is strongly associated with the post-punk gothic subculture and even though everyone is different and I believe to each his own, I honestly could not see any of AFI's music being played at any gothic rock event nor could I ever fathom songs from Marilyn manson's new album. Why bother adding it to the genre if nobody from that genre would listen to it? The majority of the people who listen to AFI and Manson and HIM and all those other bands that try to say "this is goth rock" have never listened to any of the older bands (or heard of them) where the sound originated from. They usually listen to contemporary music that comes from the metal genre, and probably would not like the older gothic rock bands :P Just something to think about :)

It still doesn't sit right with me when people try to compare AFI's earlier work to crap like Manson and HIM. Have you or have you not listened to ANYTHING they made prior to Sing the Sorrow? If you've only heard them on the radio, then you've haven't heard any of their good shit and (with all due respect) I don't think you can meaningfully contribute to the conversation. As I said before, it's like trying to explain the significance of Metallica to someone who hasn't heard anything other than what they've made in the last decade. It's actually worse than that, because Metallica's latest stuff is at least still (nominally) thrash--AFI's latest album isn't punk by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. Yes, I'm relatively young and no, I am not intimately familiar with the 80s punk scene. So yeah, you're probably right about the lack of an "eighties" sound--the grunge influence is certainly there. But Black Sails and All Hallows are undeniably punk (Drowning has only a couple songs that are undeniably punk) and they're full of what I can only call "gothic" imagery and tone. Grunge was arguably a kind of "post-punk" (or, at the very least, the most significant offshoot of punk), so what do we have here? A punk band which incorporated post-punk sounds, gothic chanting-style harmonies, and angsty, death-centric lyrics that could've been ripped out of the notebook pages of any raccoon-eyed 10th grader. (I never said they were lyrical geniuses.) Manson and HIM, on the other hand, don't have any recognizable elements of punk in them (and neither does AFI's recent work.)

As far as the samples go (which I can't listen to at the moment, fyi) , I think you're missing the point. The article currently has a section on gothic rock post-1995. So, which is the more reasonable set of criteria for judging *modern* gothic rock:

1. Every single "gothic rock" band must slavishly imitate that "eighties" sound *exactly*, pretending that Kurt Cobain and the rest of grunge never happened.

2. As long as the punk (or post-punk, or whatever) aesthetic is still present, gothic imagery is present, and several of the other tendencies mentioned by the article are present (minor keys, heavy bass work, snare drum snap, etc.) it can be called "gothic rock".

AFI's Black Sails era was punk. The snare snap was used extensively. The bass guitar was very noticeable and dark-sounding. Minor keys were frequently used. Heavy reverb was frequently used. The lyrics had undeniable gothic imagery. The only thing it lacks is that 80s sound... and that's because it wasn't made in the 80s, it was made in the late 90s. Yes, the guitar effects drew heavily on grunge and post-grunge but nothing was *sacrificed* for this inclusion--it was still undeniably punk, still undeniably dark, bass-heavy, and harmonic.

Will listen to the samples after I get my sound card to work. In the meantime, it might be nice to hear from someone else who's actually listened to AFI's earlier work. --Lode Runner 23:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I am not comparing it to any band's sound, I am just comparing it to other bands that have been mistaken for other genres. As far as the Grunge, you may find it better to go to the grunge rock page because this is a genre that is from the early eighties. The gothic rock subgenre is itself referring to the "old stuff," and if you are referring to some sort of genre that results out of gothic rock down the line than that would qualify for a different genre and therefore a different article. Most bands that even fit in this genre are at least a decade old, and I guess you can say that goth rock's sound is "past its prime" and nobody really makes gothic rock anymore. There are a few bands, but they are not well known and usually independent. The gothic rock genre is not very popular these days, so I do not know if you can really find any "signed bands" that play this genre. You were speaking of "modern" goth rock and the genres that evolved out of the gothic rock scene are ones like darkwave and gothabilly. Again, I am not quite sure what kurt cobain has to do with any of this that is another galaxy. The aesthetic is pretty off if you wish to discuss that, he actually does not have a single gothic rock style. Gothic rock has more "creativity" in it, not just black tight shirts and pants. Also, hair is a very central part of the look and that is probably what I think today has mostly lost touched with. Noone teases or does their hair anymore. Just type in AFI in google image and you will see what I mean. There is this one band that is called all gone dead that has the style right. I will agree that aesthetic is a big part of the gothic subculture because it appreciates beauty and effort and most just do not want to take the time to do their hair in the morning or apply the amount of makeup. (which, contrary to popular belief is not just slathered on and corpse death metal paint. I am talking about like intricate eye make-up.) However, this is just the gothic rock page and gothic rock is just so heavily associated with the subculture that it is hard to look at them separately at times when learning about it. You can also look at rozz williams, who has an androgynous look to him. Men sometimes wear long skirts (and I mean skirts, not "one legged pants" from hot topic), but still have a masculinity to them (rather than a complete 'womanification' like say Mana from malice mizer.) You are right there is a section on the "later" bands, which they call third generation. I think goth rock is the only genre where I have seen them refer to different stages with "generations". The reason is because gothic rock actually has a very intricate and meticulous history; there are some books that cover it well. I wish I could just send you some of my music so you could hear it and see if you like it : P But that is probably an inappropriate thing to talk about on wikipedia. --72.166.223.128

AFI have never been gothic rock. The only people that I have heard call them gothic rock are misinformed music journalists and kids who don't know any better. They base that assumption just on their image.If they get included in the article I will pull them back out. --67.160.47.246

No, they base that assumption on the fact that they were (not are, *were*) undeniably punk, they had a gothic image and they used ALL of the musical techniques mentioned in the article (snare snap, heavy bass and reverb, etc.) At least on paper, they fit the description of gothic rock to a T (again, I'm not talking about ANYTHING they've done in the last 7 years--only talking about their earlier stuff.) By the way, since neither of you signed your comments I'm taking the liberty of signing them for you--it's impossible to have a discussion without knowing who wrote what. You can easily sign your own name (or IP) and timestamp by using four tildes (~) in a row.

I won't debate the matter further until I've listened to some of the other "gothic rock" bands--in particular the "1995-Present" bands. --Lode Runner 21:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Why exactly is it so important to shove in this marginal band? This is not an extensive list of every single band which has ever written a single gothrock song. Who cares if one of AFI's songs is goth rock? We are not to trust our own opinions on what is or who is goth anyway. Reliable sources must be used. If we are to give accoustic characterstics so much weight than Interpol is also goth and so is She Wants Revenge. Even though She Wants Revenge are utterly derivative and rather uncreative, and will go down in the history books as being non-influential except to other bands that want to cash in on immitating past great music.. I would say their music is gothic rock. Interpol makes little or no attempt to sing about anything gothic or draw particularily on any gothic aesthetics. but if you are simply looking at accoustics... sure.. its goth too. And why not throw in the Cranberries or Kate Bush while you are at it. Anyway this is not a list, and trying to state every style band which could be plausibly connected to goth by some rational argument is useless. This concept of "generations" is also an artificial, unreliable neologism and unrelated to any structure which exists in the real world. It is merely used as an excuse by poseurs to propose something completely unrelated to goth as being goth and justifying the lack of any aesthetic relationship on the basis that it is a new generation. Goth is an aesthetic style of music. There is no hard and fast rule for specific accoustic similarities. They exist more or less because consumers expect them to exist and most musicians are also consumers of music; but it ultimately comes down the post-punk/positive-punk/gothic-romantic aesthetic. If you can do it with tin cans, and a church bell, it's goth. yes thats my personal opinion. But the statement about needing reliable sources is wiki policy.TheDarknessVisible 01:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

1. There are VERY few citations in the article--in particular, the vast majority of the bands mentioned are not backed up by citations.

2.There is a CITED statement in the AFI article that says AFI is referred to as "gothic punk." Punk *is* rock, and to top it off gothic rock defines the genre (of gothic rock) as being heavily punk-influenced. Therefore, given the articles' own statements, I don't know how a group could possibly be considered gothic punk and yet not be gothic rock.

Also, AFI "gothic rock" returns 26,700 hits from Google. [random crappy example.] I'm not claiming this source (or any of the other hits) are authoritative or trustworthy, but the fact remains there *are* sources out there that identify AFI as such. I typically don't base my arguments on sources, though, because sources frequently don't know what the hell they're talking about (especially when it comes to something subjective, such as this) and contradict each other. But, if you want to get Nazish about Wikipedia policy, they *are* there.

3. You are doing the same thing that the other (unnamed) posters have done--making completely ridiculous comparisons. I'm not talking about a group that did ONE goth rock song, or a group that copied goth image but not style, or a group that copied goth style but not its image... I'm talking about a group that fulfilled every single one of the requirements/tendencies listed in the article.

You said "Who cares if one of AFI's songs is goth rock?" That just shows how insanely ignorant you are. At least a third of The Art of Drowning was, as described by the article, goth rock (I'll let the other two thirds slide, because they have slower, less-obviously-punk movements.) Black Sails in the Sunset was 100% goth rock (again, as described by the article) except, perhaps, for "Clove Smoke Catharsis" and "God Called in Sick Today." (Again, these songs merely lack the snare snap and upbeat punk tempo.) The All Hallows EP was 100% goth rock. And before All Hallows they had made THREE albums--Answer That and Stay Fashionable, Very Proud of Ya, and Shut Your Mouth and Open Your Eyes. The gothic imagery wasn't *quite* as prevalent pre-Black Sails, but it was still definitely there (just read the lyrics) and their punk aesthetic was ALWAYS there, always undeniably pure (too pure, IMO--with the exception of 3 or 4 songs, I'm not fond of their early stuff... too vanilla... stylistically, it was all edge/no substance.)

So. That's three albums undeniably punk, using undeniable gothic imagery, using many of the techniques listed in the article. Another album (and an EP) that was nearly 100% punk, with even heavier gothic imagery, using every single technique mentioned in the article. Yet another album that lost *some* of the punk edge, but still retained some of it--along with all of the gothic imagery and techniques mentioned by the article.

And then came two mediocre albums almost entirely non-punk.

No, they aren't gothic rock, but you must understand that these two albums represent the *minority* of their career.

It's just really fucking weak to still continually bring up HIM or Manson or the Cranberries or whatever other completely non-punk, semi-"darkish" band you guys can think of.

4. As far as worthiness of inclusion goes, I think that (to an extent) money does matter. Even if you completely disregard critical acclaim (and I think you'll find that Black Sails and Drowing were both *extremely* well received), the fact remains they're really freaking popular and are making a ton of money. Even if you think that they completely suck--and PLEASE, before you decide this, give 'em a chance... download All Hallows, buy Black Sails and fucking tell me with a straight face that it's all unoriginal/dumbed down/whatever--you've already admitted that sucking and being derivative doesn't disqualify them from the "goth rock" label.

I understand why you guys are being all defensive (I'm sure you've run into plenty of clueless, whiny tweens) but PLEASE... I really get the feeling that not a single one of you has heard anything other than the crap they play on the radio and MTV. They didn't get significant airplay until after they sold out (and mellowed out.) Please, if you're p2p-savvy... go download the first 5 tracks of Black Sails. Here's the tracklist:

1. "Strength Through Wounding" (a bit cheesy, but a good intro to the next song)
2. "Porphyria Cutanea Tarda"
3. "Exsanguination"
4. "Malleus Maleficarum"
5. "Narrative of Soul Against Soul"

Top it off with "Despair Factor", "A Story at Three", "Total Immortal", "A Single Second" and "Fall Children".

Afterwards, feel free to compare and criticize to your hearts content, but if you guys continue to bring up--HIM, Manson... the Cranberries?!--don't expect me to take your seriously. --Lode Runner 06:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

LODE RUNNER:I HAVE heard their earlier albums before so don't assume that I haven't, and in MY opinion they are not and never have been gothic rock. You seem to be the only person in this whole discussion who thinks that their earlier two albums 'sounded' like gothic rock. Even their earlier stuff sounds like 'pop punk' to me. I used to go to Gilmanin Berkeley so I had run ins with members of AFI, Green Day, etc... and I can tell you that none of them were into gothic rock at all. People bring up Manson, and other bands that the misinformed public thinks are gothic rock, because they are other examples of bands that people will argue are gothic rock even though they aren't at all.

Also, just because a band has drums and guitars doesn't make them gothic rock, you are taking everything too literally. There is more to it than that. Actually sit down and listen to some of the gothic rock bands listed, and then tell me with a straight face that AFI are gothic rock. You are calling us all ignorant, which is quite funny considering that some of us have been listening to gothic rock for twenty plus years. You are saying that just because NONE of us agree with you.That's okay if you don't take me seriously, because it is obvious that have your own agenda. Why is it so important to you that this band be considered gothic rock? Also, I have looked at your personal page and I see that you have been suspended from Wiki before for edit wars. You can't just come into an article and claim that your opinion is valid and that EVERYBODY else is wrong. Crescentia 13:45, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ha. So ok, let's get my motives (and shady past, heh) out of the way:

The revert in question was an attempt to keep off-topic, argumentative spam out of a discussion after I had previously warned the offender repeatedly. The admin who suspended me did so because of an extremely minor violation (ONE extra revert beyond the limit of 3--I didn't read the policy in detail, so I didn't realize that my final revert counted by the rule. I did not attempt a fifth revert, even though the spammer used a fourth revert under a socket puppet account) The admin in question claimed that this single, unintentional, extra revert was "disrupting Wikipedia" (and the spam wasn't?) The admin in question also just happened to have a personal stake in the discussion, and in fact in explaining his justification for the ban, he included "offenses" I'd committed that were in fact being committed by his fellow admins as well (and far more brazenly.) In the end, the admin's statements regarding Wikipedia policy (including the policies about altering policies) were shown to be wrong, and in fact WP:TALK was changed by other admins to support my position (which, incidentally, was that original research is valid on the talk pages so long as it isn't off-topic or being used to support the inclusion of original research in the article itself.) In an effort to show good faith, I did not contest the ban even though I probably could have (since my only *real* infraction was extremely minor.) All of this is pretty irrelevant, but if you want to drag up the past in an attempt to make me look bad you should at least get the whole story.

As far as my motives *here* are concerned, notice that I haven't edited or outright suggested an edit for the article yet. I accept that AFI might not fit some other widely-accepted definition of "gothic rock", but so far I have seen no such evidence of such a definition and much evidence against it. I DO have sources to back up my opinions. Rolling Stone says that AFI is "gothic punk" and not "pop punk".

However, I am not a rules-nazi. I am not the kind of asshole to sit here and say that just because I have a source to back up my opinion and you guys don't have a source to back up yours, that I have the right to ignore you and edit the article anyway. I acknowledge that this is a very subjective area, and Rolling Stone's opinion shouldn't be placed over the fans' own nomenclatures.

That said, it's just a TEENSY bit hard to take any of you seriously if you continue to compare AFI to completely non-punk bands, or non-goth bands. Green Day isn't goth (and their punk sound is much softer and slower than early AFI.) Manson isn't punk or post-punk (and hell, he isn't even really gothic for that matter.) They are irrelevant to this discussion.

And no, I don't buy the "pop punk" label for their early stuff. Shut Your Mouth & Open Your Eyes (an album, not a single song) isn't pop by any stretch of the imagination--hell, I've seen it referred to as hardcore at least two or three times. (Google for ' AFI "shut your mouth" hardcore ' gives 16k hits. At least three of the hits on the first page are fans describing it as hardcore punk.) Shut Your Mouth & Open Your Eyes doesn't sound remotely like Green Day or Offspring or any other pop punk band I'm aware of. Tell me, do you really think that, say, "A Single Second" is anything remotely like Dookie? (note: *I'm* not saying that they're the most hardcore band in the world or even that they were *ever* hardcore at all. I'm just saying that their early stuff definitely doesn't seem to be what most people consider "pop punk.")

I accept (to a limited extent) the argument that there is "more to it" than just a paper list of musical styles and tendencies... that gothic roth implies something else (perhaps something 80s?) that I'm just not grasping. What I don't accept are people making ridiculous comparisons and trying to shout me down with elitism. It does strike of ignorance (or arrogance.)

And I would be arrogant too, if I insisted on adding AFI to the article right this very moment, but I'm not. I am trying to ascertain why so many people dislike the idea of earlier AFI being categorized as goth rock. So far I've seen a ton of elitist rhetoric and one reasonable reply.

I'll listen to some of these "genuine" goth rock groups once I get aMule working properly again, but in the meantime I have seen precious little to indicate to me that anyone has even heard their early stuff... or if they have (as you claim) that they're willing to fairly discuss its merits. Again, a song like "Three Seconds Notice" can't even be mentioned in the same sentence as REAL pop punk song like "Basket Case" or "Defy You".

I'll try to resist the temptation to respond to the flamebait that will inevitably be posted in response to this, but... I admit it's hard, damnit. I can take legitimate criticism of AFI but I am biased (Black Sails=one of the greatest albums ever made goddamnit, I don't care if it's lyrical drivel) and it's extremely annoying to have people continually compare their early work to groups that are neither gothic nor punk. --Lode Runner 17:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Man what do you expect. You are trying to shove this band into a genre that existed long before the band formed. Gothic rock is almost the musical equivalent of a "dead language", like latin. Most of the gothic rock that will exist is music that has already been around a decade. Its "time" is over, and most people who come here to work on this article do so because they know about it. A lot of bands that are on this page, most of the "old" gothic bands, are indeed mentioned in some history books about gothic rock and therefore could be cited. However, most of these bands are just "hands down" accepted because the bands were literally there when the genre was developed and it really can not be disputed. They do not need some lame "music compendium" site that has a little place where it says "gothic rock" in the genre and nothing else. And that is the truth, because most sources you would probably wish to site are by wikipedia's standards unreliable. They would be unreliable because you could there would be no way to trace who wrote they were gothic rock, what their qualifications are, and would not offer any further knowledge. And some sites, like rock detector, are run by "metal enthusiasts" and such. Do not believe me? Go to their about me page. Allmusicguide.com? Go to their about music page, they give you no qualifications or names as to who writes this stuff. And we all know the media is accurate. Like when they claimed "gothic kids" who listened to "goth music"(Marilyn manson and other heavy metal bands) killed kids and people and that is is the subcultures fault, despite the fact that the subculture is not anywhere in those small towns and mostly populated by people over 25. Now there are people who actually have qualifications and dedicated specialty in gothic rock, punk rock, and new wave music. Mick Mercer is one of those guys, and I remember this one site website, scathe, has a history on it that talks about the very bands that are on this page now. There are other journalists and books, and I had them written down but I can not find it. You probably will not find any of these guys to support what you wish though, because they critique and write about gothic rock which is why they would not even stop to talk about it. I am not saying that the subculture is "nonexistent" because there are still independent bands here and there, a lot in the UK, that attempt to make gothic rock and there are still festivals like the Drop Dead festival (or at least I have heard, still waiting to go personally.) but this genre is pretty tight knit because it did not "survive" and continue into today's music but instead evolved and branched out into new genres with different sounds. Therefore, most bands that play gothic rock are almost "unevolved" and "backwards" in regards to the development of music. So, it may seem harsh but for trying to thrust a band that is not recognized in the genre INTO that genre with no real credentials into a subculture and sound that is old, small, and barely existent in popular culture; well, lets just say that is a doozy of a task. So, the only thing really left to do is to "compare" them to other bands because there are no real sources, and the sources that do cite it are not from the gothic subculture or have any perspective. And if they do have a perspective, there is no way to verify that because there names are not anywhere to be seen on most sites. All we are left with is a little "gothic rock" footnote in the genre box. It should have to take more than that to be considered authentic in already seems to be more of a culture of "reminiscence" than actual development. So in a way, yes, to be considered in the gothic rock genre would indeed be "limiting." I certainly think it would be, because the genre has seen little development. You say that "oh it shouldn't have to sound like this" but if it "shouldn't" than maybe it should be in a different genre? One that is more open-ended and not as close-minded; a genre that is still being developed and made on a massive scale. Because gothic rock has seen little development beyond going into like dark wave which has roots in electronic music.

LODE RUNNER: Using Rolling Stone's opinion of what type of music AFI plays lacks credibility since they also have said in the past that Marilyn Manson is gothic rock. They are basing their opinion purely on image and not the music. Oh my god he's scary so he must be goth!!!!!! In fact just about every single mainstream magazine doesn't understand what gothic rock is. If you really want to know what the genre is about then take the advice of the person above me and read one of Mick Mercer's books about gothic rock. He is a known authority on the subject and has been around since the genre started. In the past he has made fun of people who consider bands like AFI gothic rock. I have seen him do so in his LiveJournal. If the best known authority on gothic rock thinks that AFI is by no means gothic rock then I think you ought to beleive him.

What I don't understand is that you keeping harping on and on about how AFI are gothic rock and yet you haven't heard any of the bands listed. How can you call AFI gothic rock if you have never heard gothic rock bands? That makes no sense to me at all. That would be like me going onto a harcore rap message board and declaring that Vanilla Ice should be included.

As the person above me stated gothic rock is pretty much a dead genre. Most of the bands that are consdiered gothic rock died in the 80's or have recently gotten back together. You cannot say that the sound evolved because in order to be gothic rock a band has to have a certain sound. There are bands that are considered 'goth' by some people, such as future pop bands like VNV Nation, but those bands are not in any shape or form gothic rock. It's not elitism to say that, it's just the way things are. Crescentia 17:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Rolling stone is not a gothic rock magazine; I am tired of seeing sources who really have no place in saying such things. Again, rockdetector is a blatant example. I also do not see the motivation to be honest for putting this band in this page. And he is right about Mick Mercer, but I have read other good books by other guys who are good and had there stuff on my other hard drive which crashed. I just want you to know that he is not like the one guy! It is just for genres like gothic rock, it is really hard to find people who "specialize" in it because it is not a popular form of music. Even Mick Mercer is not just gothic rock, he studies other genres in that area like new wave and post punk, which are strongly associated with the gothic rock sound. But to be condemned by him is kind of a death sentence, he was there to hear and see it all at that time and actually wrote about it. Its almost like trying to solve a murder crime that happened twenty years ago, only it seems like the prosecutor does not even seem to know what he is talking about... It is just the goth subculture is not mainstream or popular culture, and to use popular culture metal magazines is just silly. There idea of goth is a buzz word for scary and black. That is why most of the sources good enough are small and not well known. Again, it is not elitism because I do not know what it is to be elite about? I do not go back trying to shove bands into the disco subculture, which is pretty much over and only exists in older bands. The people in the disco subculture get together and listen to it at clubs here and there and that is the situation with gothic rock and that subculture. You never see much of either on the "surface" anymore of musical events. In a way, this article is more like a historical article. You have all of the generations outlined, and you may occasionally see mention of new bands being formed but an overwhelming majority of gothic rock bands are already somewhere in the history of gothic rock. To demand bands just out of the blue, who have no real association with this history, is like me going to a history article and "changing" history.

AFI is heavily influenced by gothic rock, particularly Bauhaus and The Cure. That much is true. The question is if that warrants a mention on this page. WesleyDodds 00:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The band reinvents its image so often, it is hard to keep up what schtick they are trying to occupy. If there music is heavily influenced by Bauhaus and the cure, they must have been influenced by the fact that they were both male singers and both have black hair.

Uh, no. They've specifically mentioned Bauhaus and The Cure, as well as deathrock bands. They've even recorded a cover of "The Hanging Garden" for Rhino's goth box set. While they may or may not warrant a mention in this article, it's wrong to say they aren't influenced by the genre when both the band and critics acknowledge that they are. WesleyDodds 04:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

They may be influenced by the genre, but they are not part of it. This whole topic was made by a huge AFI fan that has admitted that he has never heard any of the gothic rock bands in this article, which means that he has no knowledge of the genre.Crescentia 14:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I mistakened that goth box set for another one; there is this one that has different volumes than there is this one with a lame, corset design cover. Not to say that corsets are not nice, but the design is often used in hot topic clothes and it is "fake" because there is no actual boning so that design of crossing ribbon often appeals to that audience. ANYWAYS, I realized what happened and returned the corset one; the one that had afi on it. I have to agree, however, that gothic rock is a pretty strict genre in itself and it is defined very narrowly.

They warrant no mention on this page, for the simple fact that they themselves are not gothic rock. Some 'gothic' metal bands say that they are influenced by the same bands but would never be considered gothic rock. Just because a band says that it is influenced by some bands who are gothic rock doesn't mean that they themselves are gothic rock. I think it would be ridiculous to include them, especially since they have done nothing in the genre. If we allow AFI to be included then the floodgates are open to include any band that claims to be gothic rock, or who say that they are influenced by gothic rock bands even though they sound nothing like the genre. In the end, AFI are not gothic rock. 67.160.47.246 01:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

/applause

Every now and then (though its getting quite rare) a couple of mallcore fans unfamiliar with the genre, get lost and something like this happens. Playing a mixture of pop and hardcore is nothing to do with gothic rock... saying that they are connected because they "shop at Hot Topic" is ridiculous, this is a music genre for godsake. - The Daddy

Yeah but I swear for every one of those fans that does this, it requires a talk section this ridiculously long. There has to be a more efficient way.

"Yeah, kiddies of today think that every pop music shit is gothic rock. It's the same crap like the quarrel about HIM and The 69 Eyes. They never played gothrock. --Diluvien 23:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)"

Oh, please Diluvien. It's people like you, that exemplify a sort of post-modern seclusionist angst. Kiddies of today tend to incorrectly associate genres, sure.... but it's people like you that need to grow up and get over your anti-pop culture attitude. Jotsko 07:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

And sir, you who commented about the lack of "80s sounds", etc, etc... heard of "waves"? An essentially gothic rock band does NOT need to sound 80s. Evolution does remain inevitable.Jotsko 07:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right. An essentially Gothic rock group should sound like the 60s and 70s! Punk and Psychedelic sounds in connection with semitones & chromatic scale... this is what gothic rock is. Evolutions? No problems... but under a new name, please. The evolution of Hard rock is called Heavy metal. The evolution of EBM is called Electro-industrial or Futurepop. The evolution of Gothic rock is called... ?... Give the child a name. A handful of idiots had forgotten to create a new genre term for groups such as HIM, The 69 Eyes, etc. They never played Gothic rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.37.233 (talk) 14:59, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

First I’d say that Afi have never been a goth band.Although they are influenced by deathrock, horrorpunk & goth rock and this is most clearly shown in “Black Sails” and “Art of drowning”.In these albums they’ve fused their traditional punk\hardcore roots with sounds from the genres I mentioned.As a result since then they’ve been often called a goth-punk band.I think this best describes their middle stuff and I use this term.But that doesn’t make them gothic rock!Or a part from the goth scene.Goth punk means gothic influenced punk. Davey have also said that they are not a goth band.So not mentioning them is the right thing. Xr 1 23:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Major label comment

In the article it says "The core late-1970s and 1980s gothic rock bands eschewed major record labels"... while it is true that some bands created their own label (Merciful Release) or were on independent ones its not always general rule; the Banshees for example have been on Polydor, Geffen and Sanctuary, Balaam and the Angel were on Virgin Records, Bauhaus are now on A&M Records (which is owned by Universal Music Group), etc. - The Daddy 15:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Clan of Xymox

Regarding the recent addition and subsequent removal of Xymox from the article: As a big fan of the band, I don't consider them gothic rock. Definitely a part of the scene, but they've been very heavily "wave" and electronic since their debut, with very little influence from post-punk that I can see. I don't think their degree of popularity is really an issue either way. --Halloween jack 14:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you. They are more of a synth type band than anything else.Crescentia 14:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Yep, they're influenced by bands such as The Cure, Neubauten, Bauhaus, Echo & The Bunnymen, DAF, Die Krupps etc. COX is a many-sided darkwave group. --Breathtaker 21:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

D'accord, Clan of Xymox is Goth but not Rock.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Strike that, I forgot that early Clan of Xymox is totally different than later Clan ox Xymox... the early stuff is absolutely Gothic Rock while the later stuff is absolutely not, but they deserve mention for the early stuff.--Dr who1975 (talk) 22:27, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Their early stuff is minimal electro. --Breathtaker (talk) 23:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Clarity

As I was editing the punctuation and grammar of the article (hope no one minds), I noticed a few sentences that I thought could use a little changing around for clarity's sake. Here are my suggestions...nothing earth-shattering, but I thought I'd ask how they sound before I added them in.

1960s: psychedelic rock, last paragraph:
The gothic aesthetic, as well as references to gothic writers and symbolism such as the colour black, death, and insanity and minor chord progressions, were widely utilized in 1960s music. Popular songs such as The Beatles' "I am the Walrus" mentioning Edgar Allan Poe; The Rolling Stones "Paint it Black" about the significance of this colour.

changed to--> The gothic aesthetic, as well as references to gothic writers and symbolism (such as the colour black, death, and insanity) and minor chord progressions, were widely utilized in 1960s music. Popular songs that contain such references include The Beatles' "I am the Walrus", which mentions Edgar Allan Poe, and The Rolling Stones' "Paint It Black", which describes the significance of this colour.

First Generation, United Kingdom, 3rd paragraph:
As the gothic label began to stick to Joy Division and Siouxsie & the Banshees in 1979, then came Bauhaus, originally called Bauhaus 1919.

-->As the gothic label began to stick to Joy Division and Siouxsie & the Banshees in 1979, Bauhaus (originally called Bauhaus 1919) then came along.

First Generation, United Kingdom, last paragraph:
By 1982, gothic rock had become a broader sub-culture, with the emergence of bands such as Sex Gang Children, Southern Death Cult, Skeletal Family, Specimen, and Alien Sex Fiend, and because clubs such as the Batcave in London provided a venue for the goth scene.

-->By 1982, gothic rock had become a broader sub-culture with the emergence of bands such as Sex Gang Children, Southern Death Cult, Skeletal Family, Specimen, and Alien Sex Fiend. Clubs such as the Batcave in London contributed to gothic rock's increased popularity by providing a venue for the goth scene.

Second Generation, 2nd paragraph:
The Three Johns and Red Lorry Yellow Lorry, also Leeds-based bands also used drum machines, which became much more common during the second generation (drum machines continued to be common in goth music in the 2000s).

-->The Three Johns and Red Lorry Yellow Lorry (also Leeds-based bands) used drum machines as well, which became much more common during the second generation (drum machines continued to be common in goth music in the 2000s).

Blinknoodle 07:20, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Btw: You should use the button "Show preview". This is the article history after your edits. --Breathtaker 10:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I'm so sorry about that...I kept missing little things. This will be my last edit, I promise. Blinknoodle 20:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Metal has nothing to do with gothic rock.....

To the person who vandalised the page and inserted metal references everywhere: Please do some research on the genre before you attempt to rewrite an article. Gothic rock came from punk NOT metal.Crescentia 02:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Generation vs Wave

Shouldn't the 1st Generation 2nd Generation terminology be "1st Wave" and "2nd Wave" etc. In pop music the term "wave" is use to demarcate surges in popularity of a style. This idea of "generation" seems academically incorrect as the "2nd Generation" are not the offspring of the 1st. I have heard radio dj's use the term 'wave'. I've never heard "generation". So where does this word "generation" originate? I propose it be changed to wave. This may break some links but I think it is worthwhile. If no one has serious objection I'll come back in a week or so and do it.TheDarknessVisible 04:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

ok.. no one seems to care. I'm going to scower through the cites references.. if they use the term generation fine.. but if they use 'wave'.. or if they use nothing at all... and no one complains.. I'm going to change it to wave in a few days. the term Generation is really .... lets say 'lame'. Siouxsie Siouxse is NOT Tina Root's MOM.TheDarknessVisible 08:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget, "Wave" is also a music genre (New Wave, Cold Wave, Dark Wave, Electro Wave). --Breathtaker 12:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"wave" is not a music genre. art movements are often called waves. The term "Wave" by itself however.. is NOT a reference to a specific art movement. It is a reference to a vibration in physics. There was the "New Wave of British Heavy Metal" as well.. which had nothing to do with New Wave music. Cold Wave..was a movement based on the coldness of the music. Dark wave is a term for another art movement in music. I have heard Radio DJ's refer to the 1st wave of goth, the 2nd wave of goth etc. The term "generation" is quite unusual and seems forced to me. I haven't heard it being used in the real world. I think it comes from the Vampire role playing game rather than the music world. It suggests that the 2nd "generation" of goth rock bands actually are literally direct students or even offspring of the original goth rock bands. in fact they are more accurately described as students of one another, and emulate each others style and other pop influences of their own time. Its like a fad in fashion. so far no one is arguing any kind of justification for the term "1st or 2nd generation". I think it is a neologism. the term "Wave" is the usual term for art movements. If no one can justify using the word "generation" we should stick with the usual language "wave" TheDarknessVisible 23:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

But the terms were used for the same kind of music. In France, the music of Joy Division or The Cure was called Cold Wave. In Germany, the same groups were called Dark Wave. Electro Wave was a term used in Germany for the electronic music artists of the New Wave movement, such as Anne Clark, Depeche Mode, Psyche or Individual Industry. For all the genres we used simply the generic term "Wave". In those days, the term "Gothic" was very rarely in use, because there was no separate Gothic movement on Continental Europe or North America. It was a Wave movement, including Goths, New Romantics, Synthpop fans, Post-punks, Post-industrial heads and other freaks, and the members of this movement were consequently called "Wavers" or "Waves". --Breathtaker 01:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Too many namedrops!

Especially in the Second Generation and Third Generation segments, the article is quickly becoming overloaded with names of bands, labels, and even magazines, a lot of which probably aren't relevant or important enough to be included. I wish I had the necessary time to slog through reading the edit history, as I wonder how many of them are just someone name-dropping their buddy's band. --Halloween jack (talk) 00:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Delete the Crüxshadows. I think that's a good beginning. =) --87.122.8.231 (talk) 01:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Cruxshadows are not gothic rock

Their article does not mention them being gothic rock. It calls them 'gothic' which is not the same thing. The term 'gothic' can cover darkwave,etc...but that doesn't mean that they are gothic rock. Gothic rock is guitar oriented music, which Cruxshadows mainly are not. The Cruxshadows rely on synths quite heavily. Their genre labels in their Wiki article say 'sythrock, future pop, gothic and darkwave', not gothic rock, which is a different genre. They aren't on the list of gothic rock bands on Wiki because it has been agreed over there that they are in fact not gothic rock. So, why should they be included here?Crescentia (talk) 12:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Cres, i'm not really agreeing with you. Gothic means Gothic rock. All the other connotations were artificially created by the music industry. A simple marketing strategy. In the late 70s and early 80s, the music of Joy Division, Bauhaus, Siouxsie etc. was simply called gothic or gothic punk, not Gothic rock. I heard the term Gothic rock first in the early 90s in connection with the Gothic rock compilation. The term "rock" is only an epithet, similar to "grunge" and "grunge rock" or "punk" and "punk rock", nothing more.

But i definitely agree that The Crüxshadows isn't a Goth rock group. The band is absolutely untypical. Dr.Who1975 ignores this fact. His only source is a mention on the website of AllMusicGuide. That's never a reliable source. --87.122.32.71 (talk) 19:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see we're debating this on an even footing now Breathtaker. If you want more sources...

http://www.foxytunes.com/tag/gothicrock/3

"Gothic rock (also called goth rock or goth) is a genre of rock music that originated during the late 1970s. Originally a label designating a handful of punk rock/post-punk bands, goth began to be defined as a separate movement in the early 1980s. In contrast to punk bands' aggressive hard-driving music and style, the early gothic bands' music was more introspective, and dealt with aesthetics and "dark"-themed literary or intellectual movements such as gothic horror, Romanticism, existential philosophy, and nihilism. Notable gothic bands include Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, and Fields of the Nephilim."

Here's the yahoo gothic rock directory...http://dir.yahoo.com/Entertainment/Music/Artists/By_Genre/Rock_and_Pop/Gothic/?o=a

You have to realize that Goth band and Gothic Rock Bands are often used interchangeably, sometimes they should not be (such as with bands like VNV Nation which have absolutely no Rock guitar in any of their songs) but the Cruxshadows is not such a case. Never has been. They started as a Gothic Rock band with Darkwave/Synth Pop/EBM tendencies.

Which brings me to the knowledge I have from when I knew members of the cruxshadows personally. There were plenty of Gothic Rock songs in their repitoir. Not sure if you have listened to all of the cruxshadow's music or just his recent stuff that has hit the billboard charts but it's a fact none the less. I've told youabout their older work before and you ignored the statement. I'm also pretty sure none of the cruxshadows memebrs back in the day had a probelm with the gothic rock moniker.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source. Neither Qntal nor Saviour Machine, Katatonia, The Gathering, The Rasmus or The 69 Eyes are Gothic rock groups. The same with Nu Pagadi. This was a boy-/girlgroup, a simply chart group formed by the German music industry. --87.122.32.71 (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

PS: The second link: Do really think that Paradise Lost, New Model Army or Current 93 are Gothic rock groups? My goth... use your intellect. In the world wide web, for every shit you can find a stupid source. --87.122.32.71 (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My 1st source given on the Cruxshadows page: Allmusic, is deefinetly considered a reliable source whether you or I like it or not. This has been debated before. We all have opinions. Frankly I don't like this how this whole Darkwave/futurepop terminology is getting applied to bands that I always thought of as EBM. But then I read the EBM page and realize that the combination of industrial and synth pop is not the standard opinion of what EBM is so I have to bow to public opinion.Let me give you two good parrallels for the Cruxshadows. Apoptygma Berzerk sounds absolutely nothing like they did in the 90s. That doesn;tmean youtake the gothic industrial genre off their page. Clan of Xymox's later albums are strictly industrial EBM but their first album was clearly Gothic Rock. Even though it was one album, Clan of Xymox is still often referenced as a Goth Rock band. Please listen to the early work of the Cruxshadowsand then makeup your mind. If you still don't agree my advice to you is to relax and let it go. It's just a stupid wikipedia page. It isn;t the end of the world. In ten years when you have other concerns in life you may just realize that all those Goth people you're trying to impress don't give a crap about you. I have to get back to work now so I can make money to feed my wife, daughter and step son.--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When was the last time the Cruxshadows actually toured with a regular live guitar player --Halloween jack (talk) 21:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It dosn't matter that it was in the past. Clan of Xymox had been an idustrial band for years but are still considered a Goth Rock band due to their beginnings. The page is about the life of the band, not just the present. The section they are mentioned in starts in 1995.--Dr who1975 22:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

You have said that you personally used to know some of the people in the band, so for you this is more than just a Wiki entry. So, it's just a stupid Wiki page when people disagree with you?Crescentia 17:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

My edits are inclusive of information... yours are exclosionary.--Dr who1975 22:10, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

That Yahoo link is really laughable and not reliable at all. Avenged Sevenfold are gothic rock? Um.....NO Foxytunes calls Jack Off Jill gothic rock. Again....NO.Crescentia (talk) 23:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The sources seem reliable enough. I get that some people disagree with the application of the genre, but descriptive terminology is always going to consist of a degree of POV. The band is self described as a part of the gothic music scene and described similarly by multiple 3rd party sources. If this is how both society and the band itself describe the music in question, then that is what they are. That's how language works. You can argue against it, but you might as well fight the tide for all the luck you will have. Sources showing the bands label as accurate have been provided. Show some sources that decry the application of the label.Theplanetsaturn (talk) 07:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A site designed to archive info on thousands of bands, provide a brief blurb and slap on a genre label are not reliable sources. No one's obliged to provide counterexamples to refute a source that's invalid in the first place; bad sources are not better than none.--Halloween jack (talk) 08:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The bands self designation and multiple 3rd party descriptions have not been invalidated. The sources being bad is a matter of perspective.Theplanetsaturn (talk) 09:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia has criteria for the validity of sources...but hey! Solipsism is fun, so I'm right and your sources are invalid and you're wrong!--Halloween jack (talk) 11:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your sarcasm would be more effective of it were coupled with your comprehension. You have yet to address all arguments advanced or acknowledged every source listed. Furthermore, you have not explained with authority or conviction that your POV in regards to either the topic or the supporting sources that you have dismissed is correct. Essentially, all you have provided to date IS the intellectual equivalent of "I'm right and your sources are invalid and you're wrong!". If you can do better, by all means, DO so. Show me definitively that your preconception of what is or is not gothic rock is the one and only correct interpretation, and I will happily relent.Theplanetsaturn (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So when you describe other people's views on this as POV that's not okay, but when it comes to a 'relaible' source being POV that's perfectly fine? Something smells rotten in Denmark.Crescentia 15:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you spend a bit more time reading up on Wikipedias guidelines for sources as they pertain to pop culture.Theplanetsaturn 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well I plan on going into detail later but I have a presentation to give this morning, so for the time being, let's say that I believe a gothic rock band is one that has actually had a guitar player any of the times I've seen them live.--Halloween jack 14:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, how can they even be condiered gothic 'ROCK' without a live guitar player?Crescentia 15:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If either of you can actually show that the definition you favor is accurate through sources, go for it. Otherwise, you're still just speaking from your own POV.Theplanetsaturn 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a quote from THIS very Wiki article 'Nonetheless, certain musical styles from early English gothic rock have remained common, such as the guitar tone.' Also, 'As well, gothic rock has a characteristic guitar playing style' Now how can the Cruxshadows even be considered gothic rock if they don't even perform live with a guitar?Crescentia 00:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles themselves are not usable as a source to support contentious information within a Wikipedia article. But if you want to try and use this as a source of substance, be aware that the article on the Cruxshadows clearly shows that the band does have a member on guitar. In fact, there are many references online about the bands music using guitar. So, I don't really think the argument about guitar usage is particularly relevant.Theplanetsaturn 01:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Suspiria

Hello all I just added a long-overdue page for Suspiria and am in discussion with an editor as to whether they should be added to the list of Gothic Rock Bands. As I recall they were the first UK band to fuse classic goth stylings with 70s/80s dancefloor electronica. The presence of the guitars alone suggests to me that they are a gothic rock band, as much so as Last Dance or Crux Shadows. I would welcome any comment. Cheers ChiRed (talk) 22:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want them included you have to make a Wiki article for them, because they are not noteworthy enough if they don't have one.Crescentia (talk) 05:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

If some of the things you've said about the band are true (that they're more prolific and more commercially successful than other bands mentioned here), then they deserve to be added. But like Cresc said, concentrate on making a good wikipage for the band itself, first.--Halloween jack (talk) 05:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Goth_subculture#Gothic_metal

I am inviting editors here to come and discuss on this topic. Please don't initiate discussion on the topic here, and redirect your comments there if you have one. Thank you, — Κaiba 02:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Gothic metal and gothic rock are two different things and come from different roots...one punk/postpunk and the other metal. That's obvious.Crescentia (talk) 22:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Its not a question of its roots, its of whether or not the goth subculture identifies gothic metal as a type of music the goth subculture listen to. — Κaiba 21:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Psychidelic Rock?

Was it really that influential on Goth? Punk, with the exception of the Damned, was partially a huge retaliation to Psychidelic "Hippy" Rock, and while Goth does get experimental it's certainly never turned into a two hour jam session. I think that Nico's solo career; Post Chelsea Girls, was far more influential on Goth. I mean the real rebuttle will probably be that the Banshees covered two Beatles songs. However, Helter Skelter has a real macabre appeal to it b/c....you know.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.63.200.117 (talk) 23:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The half Goth rock movement based on the foundations of Psychedelic rock. Southern Death Cult, Bauhaus, Sisters etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.55.68 (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Major Material Deletion

As a fairly new (and I think impartial) user, I watched with interest the recent edit war. It appears to have started when an anonymous user deleted a large amount of long standing material from the page without explanation or discussion. Another user disagreed with the deletion and restored it. The deletion was repeated first as "cleanup" and then as "deletion of unsourced material". It was again restored with the explanation that sources were listed at the end of the article. This went back and forth several times until the page was protected.

It is obvious that the deletion is clearly in dispute. Since the deleted material was a longstanding part of the article, I suggest that it be restored and remain protected until the parties have cooled down, discussions can take place, and a consensus is reached.

I was somewhat surprised that this talk page did not appear to have a topic already active. (Am I looking in the wrong place?)

Tcncv (talk) 00:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to know why the whole pre-history section was deleted. Some of the info WAS sourced.Crescentia (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I reverted it. And i'll fight until the end. There are books. Especially the book of Dave Thompson is important for the pre-history. The Velvet Underground artist Nico was a main influence for bands such as Bauhaus, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Southern Death Cult and Joy Division. --87.122.25.115 (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually Joy Divison and Siouxsie were influened by the Sex Pistols more than anything else, since Siousie was a Sex Pistols groupie and the members of Joy Division started Warsaw after seeing the Pistols perform live in Manchester. You are wrong.Also, The Stooges were way more of an influence than the Velvet Underground.Crescentia (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Crescentia, if there is sourced information you want to incorporate into the article, by all means please do so. But ANY inclusion by a sock puppet of Breathtaker should be deleted, as he is banned from editing.Theplanetsaturn (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Peter Hammill

I wondered had anyone any thoughts on listing albums such as The Silent Corner and the Empty Stage (1973) and In Camera (1974) by Peter Hammill as precusors to the UK post-punk goth scene?--feline1 (talk) 13:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Joy Division are not gothic rock

Joy Division was a post punk band, not gothic rock. They influenced some gothic rock bands, but they themselves were not gothic rock. Please stop adding them.Crescentia (talk) 16:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

They are a proto-goth band and I think they deserve a passing mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.236.174 (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not 'proto-goth', which isn't even a real term. They were post punk and that's about it.Crescentia (talk) 02:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Old Evanescence Records

To all of those that exclude Evanescence as a "goth rock" band, please take a look at their older records and then compare them to 90s grunge-goths such as The Shroud and Blind Divine and THEN see if you can raise your voice about how Evanescence has no roots in "goth rock". Until then, I'm ridding of Evanescence in the list of modern goth image-esque bands. Thanks. ;] Jotsko (talk) 20:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Evanescence has nothing to do with Goth or Ethereal. --Ada Kataki (talk) 17:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

They have never been a gothic rock band.Crescentia (talk) 20:53, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Punk subgenre?

Do the majority of others out there also consider Gothic rock to be a sub-genre of punk? I thought it would be safe to add it to the punk genres list, but that edit was reverted. As the article states, Goth has strong ties to the punk scene, and it's listed as a punk sub-genre in the punk rock article. Most of the Gothic rock bands (like Siouxsie & the Banshees and the Cure) also mainly described themselves as punk bands until later on when Gothic rock was recognized as it's own genre. The fellow who reverted my edit said that he did so because goth is a subgenre of post-punk, not punk. But isn't post-punk a sub-genre of punk? Therefore wouldn't any sub-genres of post-punk also be a subgenre of punk by default? Personally, I think goth and post-punk are similar styles of music that both took punk in more experimental directions. I'd like to readd this article to the punk genres, but I'd like to make sure I have the support of the majority of the other editors; I'd hate to get into an edit war or be accused of vandalism. Ash Loomis (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Post-punk is "after punk", a big swimming pool with different developments. In many countries, there was no difference between "post-punk" and "new wave". Many people used the term as a synonym.

It's one of the forms that evolved out of punk/post-punk, and is widely classified as a subgenre of alternative rock, which is basically defined as "diverse styles that emerged from punk but aren't punk in the traditional sense". WesleyDodds (talk) 08:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

the cross-pollinations

"Throughout the 1980s, there was much cross-pollination between the European goth subcultures, the Death Rock movement, and the New Romantic (New Wave) movement.

By 1987, a cross-pollination with the growing global post-industrial scene was developing."

There was a cross-pollination since the early days of the batcave club. The batcave was not really a goth club... it was a nightclub with different influences. Foetus and Test Department played there. Lydia Lunch and Marc Almond were guests. It was a cross-pollination between Goth, Glam, Avantgarde, Post-industrial and No Wave. And there were New Romantics. They listened to Glam rock and New Wave. Since 1983 there was also a cross-pollination with american Deathrock. In 1984, Christian Death were guests at the batcave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.55.68 (talk) 22:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Corporate Goth

The division of first, second, and third wave Goth(s) becomes fouled up, if you don't separate the Marilyn Manson, Evenascence bands into the category of Corporate Goth. That would let this article breathe fresh air again, allowing it to trace the development of Goth deriving from it's authentic roots, as opposed to the Hot Topic consumer Goths.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.191.126 (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Dub is...

...definitely not an influential forerunner of Gothic rock. The forerunners and main influences are Psychedelic rock, Glam rock and Punk rock. --Ada Kataki (talk) 11:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Bauhaus used some elements of dub, actually. But is that influence genre-wide? Not as far as I can tell. --Halloween jack (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Some Goth rock groups used saxophones and violins. Maybe we should add "Jazz music" and "Classical music" to the infobox. ;-) --Ada Kataki (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Violins and saxophones are just instruments, you can use them in any genre of music. The way an instrument is played defines the genre, not what instruments are used, and the musical characteristics of dub were influential on gothic rock. I’d go so far as to say dub was more influential on the sound of goth than glam rock was. Glam mainly influenced the visual aspects of goth, but you can actually hear dub’s reverb effects and distinctive bass guitar in gothic rock. Some people may find this hard to believe, as dub came out of reggae, a genre which was absolutely not an influence on gothic rock. Goth didn’t take the reggae aspects of dub, it took the sound effects it applied to reggae and mixed them with other genres to create a new style of music. Bauhaus is the most obviously dub-influenced goth band, but since they’re credited with creating goth rock it’s a moot point. It’s not like some goth band decided to add dub aspects to their music ten years after gothic rock had already been created, the band who kicked off gothic rock did. Go listen to some original dub (not the new stuff, it usually sounds more like either hip hop or ska-punk than actual dub.) Then go listen to some early gothic rock, perhaps Bela Lugosi’s Dead (the first true gothic rock song according to the article.) You’ll find that the influence is impossible to deny. Does this mean that gothic rock is a subgenre or offshoot of dub? Of course not, it’s just one of the many genres that influenced gothic rock and should be in the infobox.Ash Loomis (talk) 17:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Read the books of Mercer and Thompson. In an interview, Murphy only says, that he likes the Stooges, Gary Glitter and T. Rex. There is no mention of Dub music. --Ada Kataki (talk) 18:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt Murphy meant that those were the only musicians who influenced him; another big influence on Bauhaus was David Bowie and Murphy doesn't mention him there either. If you ask me what music I like, I might list two or three bands or genres, but there's still many other bands and genres that I also like. And even if Murphy himself wasn't influenced by dub it doesn't mean Bauhaus wasn't; he's only one member. Bauhaus' official myspace includes Dub in their list of influences, take a look: http://www.myspace.com/officialbauhaus If you'd like more evidence, I can look for some reviews I've read which mention the dub influence in Bauhaus's music as well as an interview with David J where he talks about it. (I'd look now, but I've been having some difficulties with my laptop today.) Also, I'm not trying to deny that Glam was influential to goth. I think dub was more influential, but that's just my personal opinion. I'm only trying to argue that dub was an influence, not that it was the biggest influence. If you want my personal opinion I'd say that goth mainly came out of punk and psychedellic rock, while dub and Glam were two smaller, but still notable influences.Ash Loomis (talk) 19:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

If it's a great influence on Goth rock, show me five or ten other Goth rock groups with a Dub influence. Otherwise, it seems to be only a Bauhaus characteristic. --Ada Kataki (talk) 21:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I’d be hard pressed to find you ten bands who are even inarguably Gothic rock. Most bands who we’d call Goth either deny the label themselves, or have fans who like to deny it for them. And most of the bands who call themselves Goth don’t actually play it but just like to use it’s connotations as part of their image. Instead, let’s just discuss the two main bands who gave rise to the Gothic rock sound; Joy Division and Bauhaus. I’ve found that the consensus on Wikipedia is that Joy Divison didn’t play Gothic rock, but I think we can all at least agree that Joy Division was still a huge influence on the genre. Joy Division (and most of the other post-punk bands) had a Dub influence. Bauhaus took the groundwork laid by Joy Division and the other post-punk acts land turned it into a heavily Dub-influenced song called Bela Lugosi’s Dead. The consensus is this is the first Gothic rock song, and it’s also often considered to the definitive piece in the genre. As I’ve stated before, the Dub influence in the song is hard to deny for anyone familiar with the genre. And it isn’t just another Bauhaus song, it’s the beginning of the Goth genre. The 80s Gothic rock bands either followed Bauhaus’s or Joy Division’s lead and put their own spin on the genre they had created. So while the Cure may not have been directly influenced by Dub, they were still playing a style of music that was partially influenced by it. I doubt every band who plays rock was directly influenced by country, or that every band who plays ska was directly influenced by mento. But that doesn’t change the fact that rock has roots in country and that ska has roots in mento. It’s the same with Gothic rock, the style was still influenced by Dub regardless of whether or not every individual band was. As I said previously, it would be different if Alien Sex Fiend or someone decided to start adding Dub elements to their music. Then we’d either have a new genre or a Dub-influenced Goth band. But it was the dudes who created Gothic rock who were influenced by Dub, not the some band they inspired. Ash Loomis (talk) 01:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)