Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 8

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Archive 8

Problems with the article

Yeah... The article is very inaccurate, at best. I corrected the release year of My Dying Bride's Symphonaire Infernus et Spera Empyrium, and removed the false thingie about their violinist joining for the second album... Couldn't squeeze the violin-aspect in their music there though, but it comes up bit later.

Then I noticed some false information about Nightwish... Eh... Wrong release years etc. Having dates and other basic, easy stuff like that wrong doesn't exactly increase the credibility of the article...

And the article is very debatable even by the things it's saying...

Cursarion (talk) 19:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The release year of MDB's first EP is given as 1992 on various places including the cited review on CoC, the bio on Rockdetector and even the wikipedia article on that EP. Other sources give it as 1991 and since that's what the official website of the band states, I've left it as such. The band's official website also specify that the violinist joined them prior to their second album: "MDB recruited long time session musician and classically trained violin and piano player Martin Powell as a full time member. Writing then begun in earnest for their second album Turn Loose The Swans, released in 1993." No idea why you would think that is a false information. --Bardin (talk) 02:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Well,the new article had many conflictions about the genre.First,many Gothic Metal fans will disagree with HIM and Evanescence. They are both Alternative Rock bands. Especially, Evanescence has no similarity with Gothic Metal except female vocals. And also, I don't think it is appropriate to include MDB and Anathema into Gothic Metal genre. Paradise Lost is an exception here, they are the forefathers of the genre. Enslaved (talk) 13:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Countless people disagree with this current version. Many people argue exactly the same thing as you before you. The thing is the main editor provided sources that respond to wikipedia rules. Many of them are not reliable in my view, but they respond to wikipedia's criteria, as crazy as it is. And the point is, as this editor repeats it frequently, Wikipedia is not a matter of truth but of verifiability. Unfortunately, he's right. That's what the rules are. It doesn't matter what the truth is, it's all about a matter of verifiable sources. Unless you can provide verifiable sources of what you claim, it will be difficult to argue and change anything here. well, I'm not certain either actually as I'm now quite familiar with his rhetoric and his lawyer's logic and even if you provided sources, I think he would manage to maintain these things anyway in virtue of their verifiability.

On a side note, I personally don't consider MDB and Anathema as strict gothic metal bands, but rather as doom-death bands. But they played a crucial role in gothic metal's birth and developpement, beside I got a published book that consider them are forefathers of gothic metal.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

At the beginning of their career, My Dying Bride were strongly influenced by Gothic rock. Their early works sound like a doom/death version of Sunglasses After Dark. They're Gothic metal. --Ada Kataki (talk) 16:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Unless you can provide verifiable sources of what you claim, it will be difficult to argue and change anything here. well, I'm not certain either actually as I'm now quite familiar with his rhetoric and his lawyer's logic and even if you provided sources, I think he would manage to maintain these things anyway in virtue of their verifiability.>>>>>

That's funny because people have countless times given sources putting wholes in the articel yet it is not allowed to be edited by any one else. One example Blabbermouth.net is a tabloid online magazine. IN the same vine as Star magazine. To use that site for facts is fool harder. They went out of there way to put up false news stories about who Nightwishs new singer would be. There is not facts showing that the people at allmusic guide are given pay checks. I ask for proof of that to be given ASAP. As for Rockdetector.com we have had people who have worked on the site in there free time come out and say that it is not a good site to use for facts. The list goes on and on. As it stands this reads like one big college research paper where the teacher told ever one that using wikipedia was a no no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 01:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Well,being influenced from Gothic Rock bands cannot turn a band to a "Gothic"-type band. At first, Gothic Rock is very different from Gothic Metal but many people consider Gothic Rock as "less-distortion Gothic Metal", but this is not correct. And, on the other hand, simply compare MDB with Paradise Lost. You will see the difference. MDB is a Doom/Death Metal band. Sure, they influenced many Gothic Metal bands, but musically they differ from Gothic Metal genre. There are lots of bands influenced from Gothic Rock bands like The Cure, Joy Division, Fields Of Nephilim or Sisters Of Mercy, but this influence things not always leads the bands into a strict category. Dream Theater is also influenced from Thrash Metal but do they play Thrash Metal? No. To my case, I still strictly deny the relationship of Gothic Metal and Alternative Rock bands like Evanescence and HIM. It leads people into misunderstanding. Many people still considers HIM or Evanescence as Gothic Metal acts. No way. Zero relation. If we are about to talk about commercial success of the genre, we have to limit it with Paradise Lost, Lacuna Coil, Cradle Of Filth and Within Temptation etc. MTV did not helped those bands like Evanescence. Try to publish a song from the last PL album, only MTV2 will give a rotation. Still, those bands only achieved bigger commercial successes in the time they had "softened" their music. Lacuna Coil was always an Alternative-based band, but when they added crappy -core influences in their last album, they became a bigger act. Paradise Lost still cannot achieved the commercial success of One Second. If you ask me, I can say that One Second cannot beat Icon or Draconian Times. :) We all know Within Temptation, they turned to a more metalic Evanescence act. I will not even talk about COB. :D So, still, do we have a big commercial success around the genre? No. Enslaved (talk) 09:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Remove Precursors section.

This section seems concered with bands that are not regonized in the formation of the genre, for example King Diamond and Black Sabbath, who are only in the article beacause some mentions them as having gothic themes. Newflash, gotic metal is a specific musical style, and every band which happens to be called both gothic and metal should noth be added. Both have influences from gothic novels, but neither is widely recanized as being a direct influence on the genre. As for goth rock, the article is already very biased as to the genres supposed influence on gothic metal. As far as I tell, there are only two sources stating that it was a direct influence, one from a source that is widly discredited, allmusic, and another from an author whoes reliablity I cannot verify. Two sources is not enough to make a positive statement as to the queastion of goth rocks influence on gothic metal, especially since one is noted for being very inacurrent,(see allmusics page on punk metal and black/daeth metal), and the other from a non-notable book. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 06:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

A precursor is like a harbinger: something that precedes and indicates the approach of something. That is precisely what Black Sabbath and King Diamond were: they preceded and indicated the arrival of gothic metal. Both bands are recognized as precursors in reliable sources. Nothing is mentioned about them being a direct influence so I have no idea why you would even think that's relevant. There are not two but numerous sources throughout the article connecting gothic rock with gothic metal. Your personal opinions on the accuracy of these sources are of no relevance here as this is wikipedia where we are only concerned with verifiability and not truth. --Bardin (talk) 06:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, those two are the only one I can find in the articles stated such. If there are "numerous source" It would be not much trouble to round up the ones that I did not mention. And regarding allmusic, It's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of many editor that allmusic is woefully inacurrent and should not be used as the sole source for anything. If we did that, the black and death metal articles would have to be merged. And my point about Precursors is this, none of said bands have anything to do with the genre, so why are they in the article? King Diamond and BS are both widly regonized as figures in the heavy metal scene, and are rarley mentioned in connection gothic metal. Plus, you don't seem to have any sources stating these bands were, in your own words "preceded and indicates the approach of gothic metal". That would make OR, right? this point stands as well for H.I.M. I'n not a fan, but the band is not widly known as a gothic metal and does not demonstrat many characterisics of the genre. thier own page does not claim they are gothic metal. In fact a majority of the sources listed claim they they are goth rock band, while one claims that they are a metal band eith "goth influences" and another class them Goth-metalers, these should be taken into context. stating and band is metal with goth rock influences does not mean the article is claiming that the band is gothic metal, which is a generalzation that should be avoided. The second is from a quick mention is a news item which is not primarly concerned with the bands music. I could find many bands who are called a genre off hand. but that does not mean I should add them to the bands genre page. remember, you don't Own the article. Johan Rachmaninov (talk) 07:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I get the impression that you are just trying to find fault with the article. I explained to you what the word precursor means since you do not appear to understand it. That is no reason to expect that my very own definition of the word should be found anywhere in the article. Everything that is on it is verified by a reliable source. Once again, your opinion on the accuracy of these sources is irrelevant given wikipedia's policy of verifiability, not truth. Sources that relate gothic metal with gothic rock on a general level includes the Gavin Baddeley book, Allmusic and About.com while sources that relate gothic rock to specific gothic metal bands include Gavin Baddeley, Daevid Jehnzen of Allmusic and Vik Bansal Musicomh.com for Paradise Lost; an interview with Releasemagazine.net for My Dying Bride; Gavin Baddeley again for Tiamat, The Gathering & Moonspell; an interview with Stormbringer magazine for Moonspell; and Bradley Torreano of Allmusic for Cradle of Filth. As far as HIM is concern, many sources identify them as gothic metal whether you like it or not, including the Blabbermouth piece cited in this article as well as the others cited in the corresponding list of gothic metal bands, including About.com, the BBC and Metal Hammer. These are all reliable sources. The band's page on wikipedia is not one. I am surprised that you would even question and demand a source for the alternate term goth metal. Should I make the same demand of you given that you have now redirect goth metal to goth rock for some strange reason? Is not the word metal in goth metal fairly self-explanatory? --Bardin (talk) 10:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Johan, I agree with certain things you say: I doubt King diamond or Black Sabbath can be considered as real precursors and Allmusic.com is not reliable imo, and the way it is worded concerning the influences of gothic rock is misguiding. On the other hand, you just can't easily dismiss a book like Carnets Noirs. Frankely speaking before dismissing it I strongly suggest you to get informed about it. This book is considered here as referential and has been made by specialists of gothic culture. So I doubt it can be contested just because you claimed it is non notable. Anyway no matter the reliability of Allmusic.com, there is no doubt that gothic pionners have been influenced by gothic rock. Don't misunderstand me though:

I agree gothic metal doesn't descend from gothic rock (no question about it) but there is absolutely no doubt that most of the pionneers of gothic rmetal have been influenced by gothic rock.

If you read interviews of gothic metal pionners like Theatre of Tragedy, Paradise Lost, Moonspell or My Dying Bride you would know they claim to be inspired by it. Beside gothic metal bands like Crematory or Paradise Lost even covered some Sisters of Mercy songs and Theatre of Tragedy covered Post-punk band Joy division. And even extreme gothic metal bands like Cradle of Filth were influenced by bands like Sisters of Mercy and Christian death. They even collaborated with Christian Death on Born Again Anti-Christian album. Also extreme gothic metal band Opera IX covered famous Bauhaus song Bela Lugosi's Dead. But I agree one couldn't claim Gothic metal roots lie in gothic rock. User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 14:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Would it help if I just remove gothic rock from the infobox then? --Bardin (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 16:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that though many early gothic bands may be influenced by gothic rock, to say that the genre is definetly a origin, especially since we have so little sources. I think thier should have to be a consenus among experts in the field and a general recognition by reliable sources to states such a thing.137.186.50.40 (talk) 03:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, read carefully what have been just said: Noone said gothic rock is an origin of gothic metal. Even Bardin deleted gothic rock from the stylistic origins infobox.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 06:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I was refering to the second sentece in the lead, but I've changed it to be a bit more neutral. Now we should discuss bands like him and 69 eyes, who arn't known as a gothic metal band, asn yet are on this page. I'm all for adding bands that are recognized as having a relation to gothic metal, like lacuna and evanescence, but these bands don't seem to have much to do with the genre.66.222.232.165 (talk) 21:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

verifiability, not truth is a load of crap. This should be about finding the truth with facts. Not half assed basied so called sources that have been proven wrong time and again by countless people. I mean at this rate Wikipedia will be listing Kevin Trudeau as a good source to use for medical info and he's not even a doctor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

"verifiability, not truth is a load of crap"

Yeah, I completely agree, but that's the way wikipedia works. If you disagree, perhaps you should quit Wikipedia, because I doubt Wikipedia"s policy change on this issue.

concerning the reliability of sources, as already said, I agree that many sources used in this article (most particularly the online ones) are not reliable. But claiming they aren't reliable isn't sufficient. But if you say they have been proven wrong, then just provide reliable sources that state explicitely thse sources are unreliable. Man, this would be the strongest argument we could have to change this article.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 06:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I have and so have many others and ever time we do we are shot down and told we are wrong because they are paid and can't be wrong. I mean heaven forbid that Rollingstone ever be wrong. Or that Blabbermouth.com post a whole thing about how Simone Simons was the new lead singer of Nightwish with out having any proof. Or that Allmusic.com dose not seem to understand that bands such as Atreyu, and Bleeding Through as metalcore. Or the fact that they list Black and Death metal as the same thing. Oh and I still have yet to see where any of those people are getting paid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I was refering to the second sentece in the lead, but I've changed it to be a bit more neutral. Now we should discuss bands like him and 69 eyes, who arn't known as a gothic metal band, asn yet are on this page. I'm all for adding bands that are recognized as having a relation to gothic metal, like lacuna and evanescence, but these bands don't seem to have much to do with the genre.>>>

There are a lot of bands on here that have nothing to do with Gothic metal other then having a female singer. Yet no one is allowed to change it even when the give massive amounts of proof showing other wise. All because it's not from Allmusic, Rollingstone, Blabbermouth, and Rockdetector. And just so things can fit peoples way they rewrite rules here. They don't care about facts or the truth here just there one side slant on things. I mean really there whole if the person does not have a book or is well know you can't use them. Well going by that I should be able to use info from Kevin Trudeau books about weight lose forget about the fact that he's not even a doctor no he has a book. :O And doctors well they don't know a thing because they don't have books no they have years and years of going to school and working in the field but really what do they know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Yet no one is allowed to change it even when the give massive amounts of proof showing other wise.

Where is this massive amount of proofs? For the moment, you argue and you give personal examples, but I see no source. So if your sources are reliable, just provide them. Please understand you have to cope with the fact that your personal essays or agumentations are of no relevance here. Only sources.

Sure all the above mentioned sources may be sometimes mistaken, I agree, but one could argue this is no proof they're not reliable in general. Look, I'm just playing the Devil's advocate. Understand I'm not particularly trying to discredit your opinion, because I mostly agree with it. But the way you try to defend your point is in vain. Here you're just wasting your time as long as you can't provide sources.

There are a lot of bands on here that have nothing to do with Gothic metal other then having a female singer. Yet no one is allowed to change it even when the give massive amounts of proof showing other wise. All because it's not from Allmusic, Rollingstone, Blabbermouth, and Rockdetector. And just so things can fit peoples way they rewrite rules here.

Look, I disagree with the editorial direction of this main editor, here. But I doubt you can accuse him to rewrite the rules. If there's one guy who applies the rules strictly, it's him. So please provide sources instead of attacking him.

I mean really there whole if the person does not have a book or is well know you can't use them. Well going by that I should be able to use info from Kevin Trudeau books about weight lose forget about the fact that he's not even a doctor no he has a book. :O And doctors well they don't know a thing because they don't have books no they have years and years of going to school and working in the field but really what do they know.

Look, I agree, this is problematic to refer to unreliable sources in place of specialist views. But that's the way wikipedia works. If you disagree, complain on the admins board, not here. Look, I know how frustrating it is to see this,I think I can consider without pretention as an humble specialist since I'm into musicological research (Phd of musicology) and I'm a teacher of aesthetic at the university (more exactly I'm a lecturer), so yes I know how it is frustrating to see such untruths prevail. But whatever my authority might be here is of no relevance. The thing is Wikipedia doesn't work with specialists words, it works with verifiable sources. Beside noone can verify the authority of contributors. So your claim will not be heard anyway. This is frustrating but that's the way wikipedia works. if you disagree with this policy, then quit wikipedia, because I doubt it's about to change.

Now we should discuss bands like him and 69 eyes, who arn't known as a gothic metal band, asn yet are on this page. I'm all for adding bands that are recognized as having a relation to gothic metal, like lacuna and evanescence, but these bands don't seem to have much to do with the genre.>>>

Yes, Him, 69 eyes aren't gothic metal, but neither is Evanescence. And Lacuna Coil doesn't play gothic metal anymore with their Karmacode album which is more oriented alternative oriented now. True gothic metal bands include notable bands such as Theatre of Tragedy, Tristania, Type O negative, Paradise Lost, Moonspell, The Sins of Thy Beloved, Trail of tears, Crematory, Draconian, On thorns I Lay and yes early Lacuna Coil. But certainly not bands like Evanescence. No matter what sources say, classifying Evanescence is just a nonsense and just an evidence people don't know what gothic metal is. But well, sources say otherwise, so we got to cope with it, even if it's an untruth.

Wikipedia works with verifibility not truth, that's the way it is.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 07:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

That's my point. Evanesence are not gothic metal, but they are known for being related to the genre, so they should stay. HIM and 69 eyes are not. And I agree with bardin on WP:V, I just don't think that he uses it in a way that is the best for wikipedia. I don't use source like the blabbermouth article beacause they are generaly just an of mention to the genre and don't discuss it in great length. The problem with bardin is that he uses any source that states a band is in a certain genre, and appears to be unable to use any discretion. Most of his sources either don't mention the genre, state the band play a mixture of genres, one being gothic metal, or having influence from the genre, which are not valid beacause if you put the band in the article and claim that they are gothic metal, your sources have to say that they are gothic, not a mixture or infulenced by it. If I removed every reliable source which does this all he is left with is one for HIM. The problem with bardin is that there are plenty of sources contradicting his statements, even in this very arcticle. his position is based on pov and using certain sources in way that they are not suited for. 17:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.222.244.53 (talk)

If I were to use my own discretion, as you put it, then this article would no longer adhere to wikipedia's policy on having a neutral point of view with no original research. If I were to use my own discretion, I would do as you and others here would like me to do and remove HIM, the 69 Eyes, Evanescence, Nightwish, even Cradle of Filth. I'd just have the article focus on my favourite Norwegian contingent (ToT, TSOTB, Tristania, etc.) with a little mention of Moonspell and the Peaceville trio. I don't do that because I can't lie to myself and pretend that I am ignorant or oblivious of the fact that many people out there think that bands like HIM and Evanescence are gothic metal. You, for instance, are one of those people who think Evanescence are related to the genre and should remain in the article. Others here like Ada Kataki and Turemetalfan think that they should not be in the article at all. Whose discretion should we use then? Yours? Theirs? Mine? The sources used in this article are used for many different purposes, not all of which are to identify a band as gothic metal. Some of them to provide biographical details of the band; others are there to provide critical assessment of the band's music; etc. I believe all the sources used in this article are reliable. You question Blabbermouth because they only use the term gothic metal in passing but I feel instead that a news article is a strong source in identifying a band's genre since it indicates a certain level of common perception. Whether that perception is right or not is of no relevance here. People perceive HIM and the 69 Eyes as gothic metal for whatever reason. Nothing I can do about it. Their presence or absence on this wikipedia article is not going to change that perception. --Bardin (talk) 05:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Remove Precursors section. part 2

Visit the user's talk page for the so-called proof. Visit the talk page of Epica for the context. There's no need to rehash that old saga though. If you have not realized it by now, that user is the indefinitely blocked Turemetalfan evading the indefinite block with the IP address.

I personally think Wikipedia's policy on verifiability, not truth is spot on. Everyone has their version of the truth. Turemetalfan surprisingly feels that Evanescence (but not Epica!) has some relationship to gothic metal. You think Evanescence is not gothic metal. Somewhere on this talk page, an editor by the name of Jotsko thinks that they are. Another editor by the name of Winterbat describes Fields of the Nephilim as gothic metal and you pointed out that they are gothic rock instead. Yet another editor by the name of Enslaved reckons that My Dying Bride should not be included in the article but Ada Kataki thinks otherwise. I can provide many more examples but the point is rather obvious: different editors have different opinions on what is the truth or what is right. If we were to remove every band that one editor does not think belongs on this article, we'd probably be left with ... nothing. Okay, maybe Tristania. --Bardin (talk) 13:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

To me, it's really simple: Is there a strong Gothic rock influence or is there not a Gothic rock influence? A band like Nightwish has no Goth influence. Tuomas Holopainen says that his group plays Heavy metal and not Goth. And he's right. The only idiots, that describe Nightwish as a "Goth metal group", are stupid reviewers. Today, every band with black clothes is a Goth group. And a band with a drumcomputer is Industrial music. A world full of idiots. --Ada Kataki (talk) 14:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you think Marco Hietala is an idiot too? --Bardin (talk) 15:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... yes. --16:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ada Kataki (talk • contribs)

For my part, I don't think Marco Hietala is an idiot, but he's not the main composer of Nightwish. Tuomas IS and so I consider him as much more reliable than Marco. Just watch this interview. And this is Tuomas who speaks here. Anyway, this video is just for the sake of this discussion. I'm not suggesting to use it in the article, I know there's no reference and I know using Youtube as a source should preferably be avoided in wikipedia . Anyway even if it could be used as such, I know you would use your classic argument to discredit it, namely "some artists tend to distance themselves from the gothic label, but they can't be considered as reliable...because other [insert sources] think they are gothic anyway " implictely your argument is " Artists views concerning their own music can't be regarded as reliable or at least are of minor reliability."

I know this logic, your classic example being Lemmy with the Heavy metal tag. Yes, sure, ultimately your point has some truth but it is misguiding in the way you apparently tend to use this argument as a general rule, as you tend to extrapolate particular cases as a general rule as if no artist could ever be considered as reliable on their own music. On a side note the use of this very argument in this article sounds particularly tendencious because it sounds like a way to discredit any claim from any artist that could be used to contradict what you have written here. ( no offense, I don't know if that's you real intention, I'm just saying it sounds like this). Anyway I see no rule in wikipedia preventing to consider artists opinions on their music as less reliable. Just a personal observation, I'm not intending to edit the article. I've abandoned any will to do so for a long time.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

My stance is actually that if there are disagreement or different viewpoints, then they should all be reflected in the article as long as they are verifiable through reliable sources. Both this article and the list of gothic metal band reflects the fact that members of Nightwish, After Forever and HIM do not consider their band to be gothic metal. The reader is left to decide for themselve how much significance they should give to these opinions. The fact remains that there are many people who consider these bands and others as gothic metal. People on forums and messageboards, journalists and professional critics, even band members like Marco Hietala. What you and the others complaining here would prefer is a blanket attempt at ignoring the viewpoints of all these people. Whether their views are right or not does not matter given wikipedia's policy on verifiability, not truth. There are many reliable as well as unreliable sources that assert that these bands are gothic metal but there are no reliable sources other than the few isolated interviews with the band members hat deny these bands are gothic metal. --Bardin (talk) 05:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

My stance is actually that if there are disagreement or different viewpoints,

This is a reasonable stance. I agree and I couldn't never blame you for favouring the claims of some over some other. Because I've noted you always take care to mention both views. But the way you subtly discredit any claim from artists who reject the gothic label by saying "these artists reject their gothic tag when everybody think they are" definitely orientates the reader's opinion anyway. So this balance you try to achieve doesn't occur in the facts. And the article is biased.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 09:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

different editors have different opinions on what is the truth or what is right.

Yeah, that's right different editors have different opinions on what truth is. Yeah PERCEPTION of truth often differs according to people idiosyncrasy, tastes, values and so on. But this doesn't mean that truth is relative according to everyone. So you just can't discredit this debate that simple. Yes, sure stylistic definition is not an exact science, but there are methodological and musicological tools to establish criteria for a more or less clear stylistic definition.

The problem is gothic metal just like many other popular genres haven't been the subject of any serious studies by real music specialists. For the moment definition and categorisation of this label is left to journalists and commentators who are unfortunately not always qualified for this job. Hence approximations and confusions. Because of this, notion and stylistic definition of gothic metal has been blurred by journalists and commercial use by record labels that put this tag for anything as long as it can make cash.

Don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying journalists or reviewers are incompetent though. No, journalists are qualified to make reviews, history, interviews, informations concerning news or tours, many of them even have certain intuitive notions of aesthetic ...But they aren't specialists in terms of aesthetic definition. They lack of methodological formation do so. The thing is many craps are said in those sources and the notion of gothic metal is blurred because of this. Gothic metal now seems to be some vague melting pot of various aesthetic that have but little in common. Gothic metal used to have a clear definition by the late nineties; it referred to bands descending from doom metal (most often doom death) displaying a dark romantic touch. So it was more simple to distinguish what band fall under that label or not. I still refer to this definition. I know that notion of gothic metal has been extended by folk’s use since then but now it has been blurred and it seems to be an informal umbrella term including anything melodic or female fronted band. If I take your article as it is, I can’t regard gothic metal as a genre anymore. There are too many various aesthetic which have little in common to find any stylistic unity.

Anyway, I know you don’t care, but my view isn't going to change about this, no matter how this could sound presumptuous or irrelevant with respect to wikipedia's policy, I do know better than these journalists. Call it a pov if you will…I’m not asking you to remove bands according to my claims anyway; I’m just stating my conviction. That’s all. Feel free to edit this article the way you think it’s the best, as long as you don’t forget the rules concerning ownership of articles.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 20:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Marco Hietala dose not write the music. Tuomas Holopainen dose I'm going to take the word of Tuomas over the word of Marco. Tuomas leaves and the band is done. It has been said time and again by Tuomas himself that he is the brains and heart of the band. With out him there is no Nightwish. Evanescence and Epica are not Gothic Metal. Nor is Nightwish they went from Power Metal to Symphonic Metal. Like Frédérick said many of the band that are on the list don't even sound the same. Look at Power Metal ever band that plays it has the sound that makes them Power Metal. Yet here we get Type O Negative and Nightwish both as Gothic Metal bands. Not only do they not sound the same they are not even playing the same style. Then you have Moonspell and Epica. One band plays near Death Metal at times the other plays closer to Doom Metal. Epica uses themes of movie music, religion, and take many of there sounds from bands such as Death, Iced Earth, and Kamelot. Hell they even got there name from Kamelot. Moonspell does not do that yet there both around the same genre and for what reason? Because Rockdetector says so and another other site used is wrong. And you don't want a debate or even talk about this Bardin you don't own the article and you don't seem to like working with any one. Most of these bands are not even part of Gothic Rock most of the bands don't fallow the lyrics or the music style. You have in a sense taken over the article and have made it so that no one but you can edit it. You have made that clear time and again. You have made it so that unless it's Rockdetector, or allmusic.com you can't use the site. Step back for a minute and work with people. Hear there side of things and stop acting like this article is all about you. Other people have just as much right to edit and make changes with sources that are just as good if not better then Rockdetector, or allmusic.com. Other people have the right to point out mistakes that are made in the articles and fix them so as not to read so one sided and that's how the article reads. Hell I pointed out that part of the article reads as if Symphonic metal started out of Gothic Metal and that's not the case at all. There were Power Metal and Prog Metal bands that we playing Symphonic Metal long before Gothic metal even came about. Epica and Nightwish's style comes from those Power and Prog Metal bands. Bands tend to play the same style as the bands and music that Influenced them. And that's great that Rockdetector says Epica is Gothic metal. But on the same note it will list Rhapsody of Fire as just Symphonic Metal and leave out the fact that they are a Power Metal band. Allmusic.com for some reason or another won't even list Metalcore and feel that Black Metal and Death Metal are the same genre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 23:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

What's with your obsession with Epica and Rockdetector? You act as if Rockdetector is the one and only source that tags Epica as gothic metal when I have already demonstrated that is far from the case. The Metal Archives, the Metal Observer, Lords of Metal, etc. Yes, many of the bands do not sound the same - Tristania does not sound like Type O Negative either. It's called diversity. Learn to appreciate it. -Bardin (talk) 05:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Way to conuterdit your self. You said and long with the people who run this stie that we can't use Metal-Archives. Oh wait it can only be used by you. I get it as long as it falls into your near view. Look you don't own the article you are not the fainl say in what goes. Either learn to work with other people or get off. Let other people besides you eidt the page. Ass it stand it's a mess and makes not sense. Tristania does not sound like Type O Negative either and that's why Type O Negative should not be on the list. You put why to many bands that don't even have the style of play or lryics for Gothic Metal. You even put what the lryics style is about Gothic love storys. Well where on earth does Epica, Nightwish, After Forever, or even Evanescence have those lryics? Answer no where is it in there lryics.

defines the genre as a fusion of "the bleak, icy atmospherics of goth rock>>>

Nightwish has never taken anything form Goth Rock. Why do you think they keep being taken off the list. Same with the other three bands.

Gothic metal is a varied genre with bands pursuing many different directions, from "slow and crushing variations" to "orchestral and bombastic>>>

Same with all the other gernes. And the Orchestral and Bombastic is not a Gothic Metal thing. it can be found in Power Metal (Nightwish), Symphoinc Metal (Epica), Symphonic Prog Metal (After Forever), etc.

As for the Gothic Metal have diverse range of vocal styles>>> So does most of the other metal genres. Look at Prog Metal, Power Metal, Death Metal, Metalcore, Thrash metal, and so on. That's not just a Gothic metal thing. You wrote it to fit your near view of the genre with out taking into acount other people. Any time any one even dares to edit or tries to fix the page you get all pissed off at them and throw a hisses fit. It's not your article it's ever ones to work on. And there really dose seem to be a big problem if people keep bring up complantes about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I did not used the Metal Archives as a source for any article here on wikipedia. I merely used it above to illustrate that many other websites view Epica as a gothic metal band and not just Rockdetector as you seem to think. I'm not interested in debating anything with you. There is a reason why you have been indefinitely blocked from editing on wikipedia. --Bardin (talk) 03:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

No really ever time someone tries to have a debate with you, you use that site. So either it's ok to use or it's not ok to use. But you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's not ok to use in articles only to then use it in debates. It's the biggest double standered I have ever seen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Tristania

I'm surprised anyone would even question Tristania's status as a symphonic metal band.

• Norway may be the land of black metal, but it's also the land of female vocals in metal, or at least the country that produces the most bands in the genre. Tristania are one of those, but the symphonic metal with death growls and female vocals found on their 1997 self-titled debut MCD and especially 1998's Widow's Weeds indicates that Tristania are not an average band. Here at Chronicles of Chaos.
• Norwegian symphonic metal band TRISTANIA has announced the addition of Italian singer Mariangela "Mary" Demurtas to the group's ranks. Here at Blabbermouth.net.
• ... Tristania took the uncommon step of showcasing three separate vocalists of wildly divergent styles to represent their lyrics, these being operatic soprano Vibeke Stene, clean-singing counter-tenor Østen Bergøy, and harsh, black metal-style shrieker Morten Veland. The last also played guitar and composed most of Tristania's lush, symphonically enhanced goth metal... Here at Allmusic.

As if the use of soprano, counter-tenor, baritone, choir & strings are not enough to be symphonic metal. --Bardin (talk) 05:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "LordsofMoonspell1" :
  • {{cite web |author=Tuinman, Ferdinand |title=Interview with Fernando Ribeiro of Moonspell |url=http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showinterview.php?id=393&lang=en |publisher=Lordsofmetal.nl |accessdate=2008-04-13}}
  • In the opinion of vocalist Fernando Ribeiro, fans of the early 1990s were "less cynical and more open-minded in their hearts and minds" than they are in 2007.<ref>{{cite web |author=Matthijssens, Vera |title=Interview with Fernando Ribeiro of Moonspell |url=http://www.lordsofmetal.nl/showinterview.php?id=1922&lang=en |publisher=Lordsofmetla.nl |accessdate=2008-04-25}}

DumZiBoT (talk) 13:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I propose

I propose a complete rewrite or revamp for this article. As it is, its a complete mess. Its poorly written, jumps around far too much, and contains inaccurate information, such as the inclusion of bands such as HIM and Evanescence as "Gothic metal".

I would do so myself, but I don't have the time to undertake such a project and also lack the skill to create an article of the required caliber. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizmonicgamer (talk • contribs) 05:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

This article is absolutely terrible and inconsistent, and NEEDS to be rewritten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizmonicgamer (talk • contribs) 18:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the inclusion of Evanescence. I think that someone should help with the editing on the actual Evanescence page. Jotsko (talk) 07:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Uh, no, I don't think you understand whta I'm saying. I'm saying Evanescence does not belong here; Evanescence is alternative rock. Neither goth nor metal.

The Evanescence article is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.51.142 (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Apart from HIM and Evanescence, I didn't know Nightwish and Within Temptation were Gothic Metal :S This article, with all due respect, is a mess. People seem to write what they want, I can't honestly believe people find these 4 bands Gothic Metal, it just reveals to me a terrible lack of knowledge of this genre of music. I don't even interfere, it's too laughable actually to do so. I personally find the "Symphonic Gothic Metal" part very interesting, 'cause none of what's written is even logical, c'mon! People are wasting 2 paragraphs to talk about a rock band like Within Temptation in a Gothic Metal page, not to mention Therion and Nightwish. This page is a lost cause... If people deleted at least this last part, the page would look better. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia pages for a number of bands listed in this article show that the bands are not Gothic Metal. The wikipedia Evenesence page says they are alternative metal. They do not even belong to a genre that is closely related to gothic metal, yet they are listed as being gothic metal. This is truly insane. If a bad source on the internet says Elvis is gothic metal and I can site it then I guess we could list Elvis as well. There are lots of sources listed, but some are plain wrong. I also believe this page is a lost cause, a couple of years ago it was much better and much more accurate. 71.221.99.18 (talk) 22:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

On the box thing...

Shouldn't it say United Kingdom instead of England on the box? SpiffingAnimal (talk) 19:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Gothic Metal vs. Gothic Rock

Who totally rewrote this article from it's original explanation of the distinction between "Gothic" metal from Gothic Rock?? So called Gothic metal acts such as Theatre of Tragedy and Within Temptation have nothing to do with Gothic rock, and Gothic rock is most definently not a stylistic origin to Gothic metal at all. Two completely different sounds, two completely different scenes, two completely different strains. There used to be a nice paragraph about this on here, and someone who obviously doesn't know their music history rewrote it with All Music Guides "verifiable" disinformation (goes to show you how flawed using so called "veriafiable sources" is). Look at the Gothic Rock page on here, there is no mention of "Gothic" metal at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JanderVK (talk • contribs) 01:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with most of the content of this article. But I don't think it is written that gothic rock is the stylistic orgin of gothic metal. As this main editor himself wrote it, gothic metal emerged from doom death. No, the mention concerning Gothic rock is just to refer to early attempts to blend gothic rock with metal. But I don't think it implies that full goth metal bands like theatre of tragedy takes their root from gothic rock scene. Even though one could note Tot has been influenced by Gothic bands like Sister of Mercy and post punk like Joy Division. Anyway if you disagree with this article, then rewrite it with more reliable sources...User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 13:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Look at the Gothic Rock page on here, there is no mention of "Gothic" metal at all.
Here -[1] is explained that "(..)gothic metal had nothing to do with the formation of gothic rock, so it shouldn't be included on this page at all. (..) by the main editor of the page. 212.50.76.237 (talk) 21:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

If that is true, I will myself remove Gothic Rock from the origins style of Gothic Metal (which is 100% false anyway). ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Darkwave

Should't darkwave be included as an origin? I think yes, bacause bands like "Dead can dance" and "Joy division", which have influenced the goth metal acts, were part of the movement but not goth rock themselves. Xr 1 (talk) 11:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe the stylistic origin is supposed to be about the ancestral lineage of the genre as a whole rather than the varied influences on the bands in the genre. Otherwise, we would include Jazz as a stylistic origin of heavy metal music since Black Sabbath, among other metal bands, have been influenced by that genre. Likewise, there are many gothic metal bands that have been influenced by classical or symphonic music but that's not a stylistic origin for the genre as a whole either. --Bardin (talk) 11:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

No. As a Goth I want nothing to do with anything metal related. Most of us hate your scene and do not want to be associated with metal of any kind. Please do not credit us.

We are aware of what many goths may think of the metal scene. We are aware gothic metal doesn't descend from post-punk like gothic genres do. But please understand wikipedia is not a place to satisfy or confort people's personnal prejudices. Wikipedia refers to sources not to points of views. So sorry, your injunctions won't change anything to the fact many goth metal bands (while not being part of the gothic scene) have been influenced by gothic music anyway. This fact is sourced.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 09:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Goth vs. Gothic

The problem with this article is that Goth Metal and Gothic Metal are two very different genres. They have been blended into one in this article. It should be split into two articles one on Goth Metal which does have Gothic Rock as a stylistic origin and one on Gothic Metal which does not. Notice the two links at the bottom of the page (one to a list of Gothic Metal bands, one to a list Goth Metal bands) and compare the bands listed on each site. They don't even list the same bands. If both lists referred to the same genre there would be significant overlaps in their listings and there is not. It is clear these are two distinct genres. And given how different the music of each genre sounds, I'm not even sure they are even closely related genres. 71.221.99.18 (talk)

I would further add that at least 80% of the discussion on this page comes down to arguments about removing goth metal bands from this page or including the stylistic origins of goth metal as the origins of gothic metal. 71.221.99.18 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC).

Do you have sources for this claim? And which two lists are you referring to that are linked at the bottom of the page? I only see List of gothic metal bands. Mdwh (talk) 09:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Look at the external links section:

Goth metal at the All Music Guide

Gothic metal at About.com

The only overlap in the lists is Theater of Tragedy and they changed their musical style when Liv left the band, so they may fit in both categories. Some of the bands people have requested be removed from the page are not sited on the external reference as 'Gothic Metal' (aka Evenesence). 71.221.99.18 (talk) 22:21, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

But those lists are on separate sites, and hardly exhaustive. If two different people each make a small list of bands in the same genre, it's still possible they might only have some in common. And it's not just one anyway - there's Paradise Lost, Lacuna Coil, and Moonspell. And if for example you search for Tiamat at allmusic, you see that they do list it as goth metal, it's just that they don't include it in the main list (I suspect that the list is autogenerated from most popular sales, anyway). Same with Tristania. And Sinamore. In fact, out of bands which are listed on both sites, I've yet to find a discrepency... Mdwh (talk) 03:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Evanescence and HIM are not gothic metal....I guess all you need is a web review(which is still one person's opinion) saying that they are and you cite and roll on. Terrible. (216.109.255.7 (talk) 06:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC))

"Goth Metal which does have Gothic Rock as a stylistic origin and one on Gothic Metal which does not" hm.. I'm curious why gothic rock isn't an origin of gothic metal since they have similar names? haha.. look people - goth and gothic are used interchangably - it doesn't matter if you say goth music or gothic music, goth subculture or goth subculture - it's all the same (I've made a research in gothic-orientated sites and I didn't find something to prove me wrong). And if you make some difference between goth metal and gothic metal, most people do not, for the reason I already mentioned.

So, your question should be transformed into: "why there's not an article for gothic metal that is actually influenced by the gothic music?" Because the true gothic metal is always influenced by it.Those new alternative wanna-be-goth bands, in my opinion, do not belong here.Other possible transformation should be "Why there's not an article for gothic metal that sound closer to goth rock?". The answer is - because it turns out as a subgenre of gothic metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.50.76.237 (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

"it combines the aggression of heavy metal with the dark melancholy aesthetics of gothic rock"

This is false, please delete this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ImaginaryVoncroy (talk • contribs) 22:34, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

And I'm sorry for not signing before, but also Gothic Rock has nothing to do with the origins of Gothic Metal, stop trying to connect two genres that have nothing to do with each other. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

No-one answers me, supposely the main editor of the page decided Gothic Metal had nothing to do with Gothic Rock (which is true), so I will remove Gothic Rock from the origin styles of Gothic Metal. Gothic Metal came from Doom scene and had several influences from many genres of music, Gothic Rock being just one of them. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The "main editor" of the page has gotten rather tired of dealing with this article. Take a look at the rest of this talk page and the archives. We have danced this tango before. You are not bringing anything new to the table. This is not a fan forum for us to present our opinions. This is wikipedia and our concern is Verifiability, not truth. There might not be any footnote in the lead section but everything in there is verified in the rest of the article. If you think the above statement is false, go pick a fight with Chad Bowar or Allmusic. --Bardin (talk) 09:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's convenient he's "tired" for you to add Gothic Rock isn't it? ;) If you truly think Gothic Metal origins lie on Gothic Rock music (using Allmusic.com sources! lol), then I have nothing to add. Peace dude, just world peace :) ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 04:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This article is largerly going out of topic, not focusing on what gothic metal really is and mixing a lot of non-gothic metal bands to it.

There's is no such thing as "goth metal vs. gothic metal". Gothic metal should be gothic rock, goth rock influenced and called as gothic metal. Period. Symphonic and atmospheric bands with no direct gothic rock influence should not be listed.

I edited and added few facts in there. A lot of fixing should be still done.

Wolfborn (talk) 20:10, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

As an addition to that. The edits that I made were undone, due to the fact the edit was considered to be too large. I removed some references, because they were references of bands that are not gothic metal. To make this article true and based on facts, you would need a lot more editing and removing of bands and large parts of the text.

"The genre originated during the early 1990s in Europe as an outgrowth of death/doom, a fusion of death metal and doom metal." Is stated wrongly. Mentioning only death/doom is too limited description. It was originated due the fact that on the late 80ies and early 90ies started mix gothic rock and metal music influences. Besides of death/doom bands there were bands that were mixing gothic rock influences to avantgarde metal (Celtic Frost), doom metal (Stillborn from Sweden), thrash metal to gothic rock (Creaming Jesus, UK). Only one of the pioneering bands, Paradise Lost was mixing gothic influence to death/doom.

"Pioneers of gothic metal include Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride and Anathema". Wrong. My Dying Bride are doom/death, and at that time Anathema was doom/death. Either of them were a gothic metal band, and never became one. Paradise Lost are indeed pioneers due to the fact , besides of being a death/doom band, they brought influences to their music from such gothic rock bands as The Mission, Sisters of Mercy and Fields of the Nephilim. This is why they were later labeled as gothic metal, not because of the relation to death/doom.

"...and The Gathering from the Netherlands". They were considered as atmospheric those days, especially when the album "Mandylion" came out and defined the whole atmospheric metal genre at once. Even if they were influenced by Paradise Lost in their very early days, it doesn´t mean that they are gothic metal band. The second part of the gothic metal influence = gothic, should come directly from gothic bands, not as an secondary influence from other metal bands.

"Norwegian band Theatre of Tragedy developed the "beauty and the beast" aesthetic of combining aggressive male vocals with clean female vocals, a contrast that has since been adopted by many gothic metal groups." Wrong. Most of the beauty and beast bands are something else than gothic metal. More defining vocal style for gothic metal is the presence of low pitched dark male voice, that has been adapted from tradional gothic rock bands. This has not been mentioned in the article at all! As references I cave Peter Steele, Nick Holmes and Fernando Ribeiro, some of the most respected vocalists in gothic metal.

"In the 21st century, gothic metal has moved towards the mainstream in Europe, particularly in Finland where groups such as The 69 Eyes, Entwine, HIM, Lullacry, Poisonblack and Sentenced have released hit singles or chart-topping albums. In the US, however, only a few bands such as Lacuna Coil, Nightwish, and Evanescence have found commercial success." All wrong. The 69 Eyes is not a metal band, Entwine was not influenced by gothic bands, Him is a love metal band (a genre defined by them selves), Lullacry is just a melodic metal band without any gothic approach, Poison and Sentenced had only few hints of gothic influences on very few of their releases, Gothic was never a major influence to them. Nightwish are a power/symphonic metal band, not gothic. Evanecense is an example of where the atmospheric metal genre developped, after following the example of the Dutch band The Gathering. Dramatic, yes, but not gothic.

"For the female singers, the different vocal styles includes the screams and growls of Cadaveria,[26] the "poppy" vocals of Tanja Lainio from Lullacry[27]" I removed this. It is ridicilous that include these vocalist and bands here. They have most likely have been added due to the large misunderstandings that all metal bands with female vocalists would be gothic. As I said the "vocals" description totally lacks a mention of low pitched and dark male vocals, which as a matter of fact are a defining factor for the whole genre "gothic metal".

I think that after explaining "heavy metal" and "gothic rock" there should be a headline and part that shortly explains the crossover nature of gothic metal and sums up that gothic metal is a genre that is a sum of influences that comes from understanding and direct influence of both of it´s mother genres.

I wanted to add to the origin part two bands: Stillborn from Sweden whose first album "Necrospirituals" is the first album that is 50/50 gothic and metal influenced. Tracks from this album has been covered for example by Paradise Lost. There is a direct influences. Secondly I wanted to to UK based band Creaming Jesus (years 1987-1994) who were the first band to mix thrash metal guitar to gothic rock.

I kept the Peaceville three. Altough it is absurd to say that My Dying Bride or Anathema would be gothic metal. They had their roles in the birth of death/doom, not gothic metal.

"Symphonic gothic metal" should be removed. That part has nothing to do with gothic, except for the secondary influence from other metal groups. The mentioned bands are all about atmospheric metal and power metal mixed with female vocals. Why can´t I find anymore the part which says that most of the bands have said in their interviews theselves that they have no gothic influences? That latest should confirm it all. Why to keep up the false information and illusion? Wolfborn (talk) 22:55, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

"Gothic metal should be gothic rock, goth rock influenced and called as gothic metal." ---> WHAT??? Explain this better, it made no sense whatsoever... Gothic Metal IS NOT Gothic Rock LOL! Period about that dude, go get your facts. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 21:55, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this is mentioned anywhere in a source we can use, but I believe that the atmospheric, symphonic and ethereal aspects (including "angelic" female vocals) of gothic metal are not inspired by gothic rock per se, but by the Ethereal Wave and especially neoclassical subgenres of Dark Wave. Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:39, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

By the way, I wonder if Dreams of Sanity deserve a mention as one of the pioneers of the symphonic metal genre (not sure if they can be connected with gothic metal in the strict sense). Of course, only if there are useable sources. Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Origins

Cause I don't want to fall in an edit war - let's all discuss this. The pioneers of the genre were, at the beginning, mostly (but not exclusively) death/doom.But later they changed their sound under the influence of goth rock.So it's obvious - goth rock is an stylistic origin, if it wasn't it there would be no gothic metal, would it? Xr 1 (talk) 19:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually I think you misunderstand the issue. You confuse origins with influences. Origins means roots. Origins implies a genre descends from another genre. Now, these bands undeniably were influenced by gothic rock bands, no question about this (and also neoclassical darkwave such as Dead can Dance). But influences doesn't mean "roots". Because Symphonic metal bands for example are influenced by classical music doesn't mean they descend from classical music. This is a complete misconception to think so. The same goes with gothic metal and gothic rock influences.

Plus, I disagree with you, pionners of gothic metal weren't just influenced by doom-death, actually they directly came from doom-death scene. For example Paradise Lost or Theatre of Tragedy (early known as Suffering Grief then as La Reine Noire) were Doom death bands. Noone of these bands came from the gothic rock scene. However these bands have always claimed to be influenced by gothic rock. but because they were influenced by gothic rock doesn't mean their music directly descend from gothic rock. This is why I don't consider gothic rock as an origin, but only as an influence.

Beside I also disagree with you when you say these bands came to change their style under the influence of gothic rock later because they already were influenced by it even before. (on a side note you seem to extrapolate the case of Paradise Lost late style as a general rule, but this is misguiding). Paradise Lost were already influenced by gothic rock even before changing radically their style. They even have covered a Sisters of mercy song at the time of Draconian album.

The same goes with TOT. Even at the time of their Velvet Darkness they fear album, Tot already claimed to be influenced by gothic rock bands. Moonspell has always claimed to be influenced by Fields of the Nephilim ever since their earlier releases. Crematory was still a doom-death rooted band when they covered gothic rock hit "Temple of love". But the point is these bands come from the metal scene not from the gothic rock scene. Ask any fans of gothic rock if gothic metal comes from gothic rock, you'll generally get a "no, absolutely not!"

Anyway feel free to change this article the way you want. This article is a joke anyway. An untruth more or less in it doesn't matter anymore.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 09:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I've never said that the peioneers of the genre were only influenced by death-doom.Were did you see that 0-o ?

Paradise Lost, Type O Negative, My Dying Bride,etc at the beginning of their careers didn't show any gothic influence in their music.

Lost Paradise is pure depressive death metal. But later they began to experiment with goth atmosphere etc. (+ I know they've covered the Sisters :]) Same goes with the other pioneers. So this is what I meant saying "later they changed their sound under the influence of goth rock"

I understand your point - you think if it's only and influence it shouldn't be in the "stylistic origins" . But it's an imprtant influence, isn't it?

Xr 1 (talk) 10:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for misreading you (I hate it when I do that). Anyway as you understand it, my point is gothic metal came from the metal scene, not the gothic rock one. Hence the fact I don't consider gothic rock as an origin.

But it's an important influence, isn't it?

As Ada Kataki said and also Bardin mentioned in the article, I consider gothic rock influences as one of the important criteria to define true gothic metal.But while gothic rock was indeniably an important influence, if you ask me the gothic style known today as neoclassical Darkwave (with its atmospheric mood and ethereal female voices) even had a much bigger impact on gothic metal sound(at least on the beauty and the beast tendency) than gothic rock itself.

Anyway the problem in this issue, is including gothic rock in the "origin" box may be misguiding, because it might let the reader think that gothic metal is a direct extension/descendant of gothic rock, which it isn't. I agree with the fact mentioning gothic rock influences as important within the article itself though, but including it as an origin is misguiding.User:Alpha Ursae Minoris (talk) 10:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I personally think that in this section should be mention anything that have inspired the bands.But I guess you're right - it can be musguiding.Maybe goth rock should be removed. But in both cases some more work on the article about the relationship between the goth subculture and scene with this style of music is needed. Xr 1 (talk) 14:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There are different roots. On the left side, there are metal groups such as Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride or Tiamat. On the right side, there are groups from the Goth scene, such as Lacrimosa, The Nefilim, Dreadful Shadows, Love Like Blood and Umbra et Imago. Since the middle of the 1990s, they all play Goth metal. --Ada Kataki (talk) 07:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I believe that goth rock should be included as a stylistic origin in the infobox. Other articles across wikipedia employ a broad understanding of stylistic origin. Folk metal is not a direct extension or descendent of folk music but nobody is complaining about folk music being listed as a stylistic origin there. I don't think people reading the symphonic metal infobox would conclude that it is a direct descendent or extension of classical music. Progressive rock also includes classical music as a stylistic origin as well as free jazz, electronic art music, folk rock and many others. Again, I don't think anyone reading that infobox would conclude that prog rock is a direct extension or descendent of these genres. And so on and so forth. --Bardin (talk) 15:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

There are different types of gothic metal, all influenced by gothic rock. The 2 main types are gothic rock/death/doom (early Paradise Lost , My Dying Bride etc.), and the newer, more commercial type - gothic rock/alternative rock/alternative metal (recent Paradise Lost, Evanescence, HIM etc.). --↑ɻ⅞θʉɭђɥл₮₴Ṝ 13:48, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please... recent Paradise Lost is absolutely true gothic metal.Have you listened to their self-titled or In Requiem?Plus, their rock-ish stuff did not sound anything like HIM or Evanescence!How can you even compare Paradise Lost to them?...

I now have the stong opinion that gothic rock have to be mentioned in the stylistic origins.because if the first bands weren't influenced by it gothic metal wouldn't exist.

Xr 1 (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, check the synth era section; second, i'm not saying it's not true gothic metal. --↑ɻ⅞θʉɭђɥл₮₴Ṝ 19:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

synthpop/rock has nothing to do with alternative or nu metal..

also, if you haven't noticed - search through the history of the article an you'll see I've made a great contibution to it,so I know what is said there.

Xr 1 (talk) 13:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi everybody, I'm going a project on different metal genres and while reading the page I noticed somebody spamed the Box in spanish with something to do with Guns n Roses... I was going to change it when I came into an Editing conflict with somebody. When someone has a moment can they please re-add the "Stlyistic Origins" section? The genres I last check that were on there were as follows: Gothic rock, Heavy Metal, Doom metal, Industrial metal Black metal

Now I'm not to sure about the last two, but it sort of make sense for Industrial metal because some bands were/are Incorporating electronic elements into their music. Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by DeanBaetz (talk • contribs) 22:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Danzig should be included, because they were very much pioneers in the development of this genre and have influenced other Gohtic Metal bands. At the very least, Danzig (the band) are very much accepted as a Gothic Metal band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Danzig_%28band%29#Genre:_Gothic_Metal

108.223.14.211 (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2013 (UTC)James Lopez

Vocals section

I've changed the clean Countertenor vocals of Osten Bergoy into Baritone. I think, this was written to show the contrast between grunts and clean vocals. But seriously, this is ridiculous. Osten Bergoy isn't even a light baritone. Anyone who has ever listened to Tristania or knows about Voice types can tell you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.202.139 (talk) 21:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You are correct, but you cannot change a literal quotation; check the website to see that the error is contained there, it's not the fault of Wikipedia editors, but of Eduardo Rivadavia. Music journalists are obviously not necessarily proficient even in the basics of music theory (a problem Wikipedia's music editors are struggling with in other cases too; as a relevant related example – see the previous section – I do not necessarily agree with the way journalists describe the music of certain bands such as Evanescence, HIM or Nightwish as gothic metal, either). In any case, the caption of the "Angina" excerpt indirectly corrects Rivadavia's undoubtedly erroneous description. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:13, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

no need to write Doom metal

i've removed Doom metal from stylistic origins because there's already Death-doom in the article and Death-doom= Death metal+Doom metal,so Death-doom is death metal and also Doom metal too.so there's no need for Doom metal to be in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GREYBOYY (talk • contribs) 18:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Alternative metal?

I was just looking on the gothic rock page, and I noticed that it says gothic rock is a subgenre of alternative rock. If that is true, then shouldn't gothic metal be considered a subgenre, or even a derivative, of alternative metal? Dude00007, Ph. D., Sc. D. (talk) 23:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

No, because gothic metal wasn't influenced much by alternative metal at all. The origins of gothic rock are very different than those of gothic metal.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:27, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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You're crazy, guys.

HIM — Gothic Metal? Within Temptation? Evanescence? You're killing me. Sorry for bad English. 82.207.95.58 (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion doesn't matter here, only content referenced by reliable sources. Whether you think they are gothic metal or not is irrelevant. FireCrystal (talk) 22:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok...

Nightwish. [2]

>HoM. Talking about labels. It is something that I do not like after all. But, Do you consider yourself a gothic metal band? You were included in this branch of the heavy metal world in general because the mere fact of having a woman as singer and this is something that I have never been agree.

>I do not consider Nightwish as a gothic metal band. This music style is a characteristic of Paradise Lost, Type or Negative or Lacrimosa in their first periods. May be we could be a gothic metal by our lyric content, but I think we have nothing in relation with that.

OK. Maybe HIM? Oh, look at that! The ONLY ONE time when word "goth" is in the whole interview. [3]

>Now with the new record label, with the success in Great Britain, with increasing success in the States life seems to become even more stressful for you than it has already been before. How do you manage? Do you like this life?

>It's good fun. I really consider it to be very helpful for us that we spent ten years of practicing like little baby steps rather than having it all at one goal. So actually the band has been ready for this. I think that album is very good and you can hear an album like that anywhere nowadays. It's not goth, it's not metal - it's somewhere in between lots of things.

You may say it's just for one album, but please, find where Ville or another guy from HIM is telling that HIM's playing gothic metal.

Ok, WT consider themselves a gothic rock band. Damn.

Evanescence... it's just silly. [www.google.com/?q=site:evanescence.com gothic metal]. Oh, what's this? The only reference of gothic metal on the evanescence.com is from, er, smother.net, where someone (not someone from the band) is telling that they started as weak gothic metal band.

So find "reliable sources" where someone from the band is saying that their band is playing gothic-metal or played it in the past and then include them to the article.

I'm so sorry for my English (I'd rather say engrish). 89.21.84.14 (talk) 14:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I sometimes write from different IPs because of proxy. Sorry for that too. 89.21.84.14 (talk) 14:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Bands usually hate genres and shouldn't be considered their own reliable sources on topics as they hate to be pigeonholed. Countless bands hate to say "oh we're not a punk band...we're straight up rock and roll!" or something. When discussing genres, we need citations that look at them from an objective point of view, not one band's own personal opinion. Andrzejbanas (talk) 05:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

> Lacrimosa wasn't gothic metal in their beginnings, lacrimosa was darkwave in the first 3 albums, since inferno they added heavy metal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.51.9.51 (talk) 13:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I got as far as halfway down the etymology section, and was too disgusted to continue. I won't have time to look for sources until February, but large sections of this article need to be purged and replaced with something sensible. I am however going to remove the midle paragraphs of the etymology section because they are heavily opinionated, have no sources, and are frankly embarrassing to wikipedia. I will also scan through for other things that shouldn't be there, as it's better to have no information than inaccurate information. Caw89 (talk) 14:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Good call, however Caw89 i do think that etymology part is still horrible and superficial. My opinion is, either someone writes a decent paragraph to insert there or cut the section completely. What shocks me is, it's been there for months now and only now someone decides to erase it. It would be nice of you to correct the paragraphs instead of just deleting them. Although its better to have no information than inaccurate information, its better to have corrected information than no information at all, if u get my drift. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.227.58 (talk) 01:53, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with 82.207.95.58, HIM has its own style and Gothic is not, Evanescence is total garbage, as som idiot said MY OPINION as a METAL AFICIONADO doesn't count, what it counts is the opinion of the idiots who manage the money and tells us what to hear... Yeah right(full sarcasm)...

Regarding to HIM I quote from this wiki: "Genre HIM's genre is debated in some circles; on their album Deep Shadows and Brilliant Highlights, it says their genre is "alternative", but their musical style is also often referred to as "love metal" by Valo and by the group's fans. Valo has stated that the band started as a "Black Sabbath tribute band of sorts". Some of their biggest influences include The Doors, The Stooges, Black Sabbath, Type O Negative, The Sisters of Mercy, Fields of the Nephilim, Iron Maiden and Depeche Mode. Critics have referred to them as gothic rock, gothic metal, alternative rock, alternative metal, dark rock, and melodic metal."

Resuming the opinion of the musicians also doesn't count because the critics are the ones, who are right and the singer, the band and the fans MUST obey the critics...

I'm removing HIM from that list, if the band says ALTERNATIVE who are we to contradict them?--FaustoLG (talk) 01:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

We go by what the citations say. Everybody has different personal opinions. I do not necessarily agree with the way journalists describe Evanescence, HIM or Nightwish as gothic metal, either. Wikipedia articles cannot cite other Wikipedia articles. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:15, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

• In fact, Within Temptation played Gothic Metal... at their very first album, Enter. The one few people listened to, but it got them the tag. Then they changed genre, first to symphonic metal, and eventually to whatever Evanescence is playing ("dark alternative rock" or anything). But the inertia of music databases, in which the whole band is usually tagged with a single genre, did not allow the tag to be changed in time. Then newcomers listened to the likes of The Unforgiving, looked at the band's tag and thought: "Oh, THAT'S what Gothic Metal sounds like!" And before you pronounce "No, that's not what it seems...", they start writing reviews to various blogs, which are then used as "reliable" sources. Enter Evanescence the Gothic Metal Band! Beaumain (talk) 15:51, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

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