Talk:Frankie Goes to Hollywood/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Jacob Moogberg

This article doesn't mention Jacob Moogberg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.184.52.208 (talk) 04:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

T shirts

What about the "Frankie says Go to Hollywood... Who gives a fuck what Frankie says" T shirts?Exploding Boy 13:41, Feb 10, 2004 (UTC)

  • Dunno about those, but I typed 'Frankie Say Relax' into Wikipedia and ended up here, when I was actually looking for Katharine Hamnett, who designed the shirts. Should those keywords point here or redirect to her page? JaffaCakeLover (talk) 10:56, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
    • The FGTH shirts were based on Hamnett's "Choose Life" shirt, but not designed by her... Paul Morley designed them. Hence, definitely no re-direct needed. And don't believe what you may read on the Hamnett article itself either - nothing on there is sourced and most of it's made up. Seems to me that you only have to write on a T-shirt and it's suddenly "designed by Hamnett"... May try to remove some of the crud if I can dig out a source or two... --DaveG12345 (talk) 18:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
      • OK, I had a go at fixing the Hamnett article, and a few other Hamnett references around WP that over-stated her involvement in the FGTH stuff and generally gushed on in a rather fancrufty way too... Will probably try to inject some of this cited info into the FGTH/Morley articles later too.--DaveG12345 (talk) 11:38, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Ryan Molloy

As I did in the German edition, I removed Molloy for the reason that that had nothing to fo with FGTH anymore. It was an anniversary event for Trevor Horn 25 years later -- it's nice extra info but he shouldn't be listed as regular band member. --Blane 21:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Intro and Formation sections

I tried to tidy up the intro and "formation" section - the article as a whole seems flabby and full of POV - e.g. the original convoluted explanation about Frankie Vaughan, who-taught-who guitar - some of this stuff is so trivial it's hardly worth mentioning except in a footer at the end called "Trivia". I think this is probably why the article was never "featured" - the sections on the individual singles, etc., still require similar tightening. Still too much POV, too much inconsequential or unstantiated trivia. DaveG12345 09:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Frankie are performing during 2005. (No, not "Davey Johnsons" version!)

Default Band Infobox Listing Original Members As Past Members

I removed this thing - the default Wikipedia band infobox is basically bland and hopeless for past bands IMO, but besides that, the implementation included a photo of the 1984 line-up whilst listing Johnson and Nash as "past members".

I know FG2H is trying to make a name for itself, and good luck to them all - but let's please not re-write history and have Holly Johnson and Brian Nash accorded the same status as (effectively) Pete Best or Wally Nightingale.

The new line-up hasn't made a name for itself yet - and so it deserves a footnote in the main article at this stage - no way should any "infobox" be listing johnny-come-lately members as a kick-off to the article, and no way should the original members be relegated to subsidiary importance in such a shoddy and disrespectful "past members" way.

Discussion welcomed but, IMO, come such a time that the "current" line-up has at least matched the original line-up's musical achievements, then we can start to talk about infoboxes bearing their name front-and-centre, eh? :-) --DaveG12345 21:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


BBC ban

Quoth the article: "the BBC decided to ban the record from all its TV and radio outlets." I'm sure this wasn't the case, and that they continued to appear on Top of the Pops - Steve Wright has even made reference to this when the song has been shown on TOTP2 at least once, commenting that unlike the rest of the BBC, "we were big enough, we could take it". Angmering 11:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The much-repeated clip of FGTH doing "Relax" on TOTP actually comes from the week before the ban (as evidenced by the fact that the studio has been specially decorated for the show's 20th anniversary, which was that week.) --Bonalaw 10:38, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. They were fortunate to get on TOTP that week - it was a new entry at No.35 and they got quite a high billing and a lucky break, much like Wham! did about 18 months earlier. Must have been a tough week for getting artists to appear live. But there's no doubt that the BBC did not feature Relax at all between Mike Read's moment of glory and the TOTP Christmas special. Bentley Banana 20:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


Two Tribes video banned on British TV?

I distinctly remember seeing the video on TV at the time. I don't think it was "not shown", though perhaps it wasn't shown on some TV shows or until after the 'watershed'. Can someone verify this please, and add a citation in the relevant place? -- Mal 19:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

On reflection, I think the full version wasn't shown, and perhaps parts of it were 'looped' so as to avoid showing the more 'violent' parts of the original cut. -- Mal 19:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Right and wrong. The Two Tribes video wasn't shown by the BBC, but it was shown by Channel 4 (who premiered the full-length version at about 1am one night in April 1984).

Relax

I was under the impression that the offending lyric was when you want to suck it, chew it; it's about oral sex. I would provide a source - but I'm at work, and I would probably get in trouble. Lupine Proletariat 14:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunatley, you have fallen under the spell of a misheard lyric. The lyrics directly from the official FGTH website [1] state the chorus as -

"Relax don't do it / When you want to go to it / Relax don't do it / When you want to come // Relax don't do it / When you want to sock to it / Relax don't do it / When you want to come"

I still insist the song is about orgasms, but not everyone agrees, so I will drop that issue. Pixiestix 13:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

disambiguation

There is also a game (for C64) called Fanky Goes to Hollywood. I think this topic needs disambiguation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.138.92.218 (talk) 05:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of "Relax"

I think that this part of the article needs further editing in order to meet the standards of neutrality: '...produced similarly minimalistic black-on-white shirts depicting positive slogans such as "Choose Life"...'

Let me know what you think. VegKilla (talk) 03:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree - and the claim that Hamnett designed the shirts is nonsense. So I removed that claim, and the POV tag. :-) --DaveG12345 (talk) 14:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Blockheads

I cut the following uncited material from the article:

Adding to the controversy surrounding "Relax", rumours began to circulate after its chart success that the single had actually been recorded by session musicians. This rumour eventually gelled into the general accusation that "Frankie cannot play", since the group did not tour to promote either of their hit singles, and there was only a very brief series of UK dates in December 1984. Some time later, producer Trevor Horn admitted that in fact he had recorded a 'demo' version of "Relax" with FGTH and The Blockheads, the backing group for Ian Dury. He had then cut a second version with FGTH alone, but was unhappy with the result of both sessions, and had finally taken the tapes away to work on. Horn allegedly spent five more weeks augmenting the track with extensive overdubs by session musicians, incorporating previously recorded bass hooks by the Blockheads' Norman Watt-Roy and a bass pulse sampled on a Fairlight CMI two years earlier at Battery Studios by session bassist Mark 'Thumbs' Cunningham.[citation needed] Having unilaterally spent such extensive time and money on one single, Horn would later assert that "Relax" represented a massive gamble for himself and his new record label, ZTT, and that its failure could well have bankrupted him. By the time it was completed, it had cost a reported £70,000 in studio time alone, with the video clip costing an additional £15,000. The question of studio time, costs and who should ultimately pay for them would become a key question for FGTH (and other signed ZTT groups such as Propaganda) beyond 1984.

It all seems very detailed, and I'm sure at least some of it is true, but there are no citations, and it does not seem fitting material for a general article about the group. With reliable citations, it may have a place in the "Relax" article itself, but not here. --DaveG12345 (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Forbidden Hollywood

Given that the "new line-up" of FGTH has adopted the alternative name "Forbidden Hollywood", wouldn't it make more sense to classify this as a separate but connected band, and then restore FGTH to its original line-up, etc.? Given this name change plus the lack of any discernible activity by the band, it seems daft to describe FGTH as if it were an extant band, and ridiculous to describe Holly Johnson and Brian Nash as "former members". I note that DaveG12345 has raised this before, but it didn't seem to attract any further comment. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 08:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I guess you mean the template at the bottom of the page should change? I agree, it should match the infobox up at top-right of the article - which could itself arguably use a little bit of work. For non-extant bands whose line-up didn't change during their principal recording career (which I'd say applies to FGTH), I believe the infobox as used on The Beatles represents general consensus - i.e., "Members" should be Johnson, Rutherford, Gill, M. O'Toole and Nash, "Former Members" should be everybody else, as long as they were involved for more than 5 minutes of course... ;-) --DaveG12345 (talk) 19:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Another example to consider is that of Pink Floyd (showing my age there). They split up in the early 1980s but 3/4 of the band (though not its prime mover, Roger Waters) reformed and recorded a number of albums (i.e. they are in a completely different league to the reboot of FGTH). The Pink Floyd infobox lists the original line-up (plus additions/deletions) as a single unified list (though one early member is consigned to a separate line). Anyway, I'll have a go at reformatting the current infobox. Among other things, if this new band is notable (beyond its relationship to FGTH), it should really have its own article. At the moment, the Forbidden Hollywood article is about something completely unrelated.
On an unrelated note, some of the text in the current article is rather POV. Clearly written by an over-excited fan. I'll see about toning some of this down too. Cheers, --PLUMBAGO 07:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

What happened to pop culture references?

This article used to have a heading for FGTH references in pop culture - why has that been removed? 64.20.202.42 (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC) Sean Duross 05/01/10

Brian De Palma?

The original video directed by Bernard Rose depicted a gay S&M den (filmed in the unused East London theatre Wilton's Music Hall), which was promptly banned by both the BBC and MTV, resulting in the production of a substitute video directed by filmmaker Brian De Palma. I remember the "laser beam" video released to replace the Bernard Rose video. I don't remember any Body Double scenes being shown on TV as a promo for the song. Nelson58 (talk) 00:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Zoolander

A Zoolander reference may help expand the article. I'm sure it could be handled in one or two sentences. OlYellerTalktome 15:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

FGTH "Was" or "Were"

I've change this to "was", even though a comment in the text claims "were" is correct UK grammar. I disagree. The band is singular, even though it is made up for several individuals. You would say "The band is great..." and "The band's are great...". Even as a collective noun, the singular is preferred.[2] --Iantresman (talk) 20:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Rescinded. --Iantresman (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
See Formal and notional agreement in UK grammar. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:19, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Why exactly should proper UK grammar control here? So what if the article is about a British band, the rules of grammar should be consistent across all articles that are written in English. Since Wikipedia is an American website it makes far more sense that American grammar rules should control. Afterall I don't see British spelling rules controling elsewhere, so why should British grammar rules control? I changed it back to was because that is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.226.142.175 (talk) 15:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
UK grammar controls because the article is about a UK band. Please read Manual of Style here and here on plurals. It was written specifically for cases like this. Your change is not in line with the manual of style, so I have reverted it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:51, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Dear Escape Orbit, I hope you are well. I think you are force-fitting your opinions into the relevant section of the Manual of Style, which actually does not support your position in this particular case, and I therefore understand why other editors have considered your revisions to be pedantic. Still, I don't want an edit war so I will merely wish you well and let you interpret the Manual as you wish (differently to me, for one). After all, we are both just trying to do our best. All good wishes, George Custer's Sabre (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The Manual of Style is merely reflecting UK grammar, so I don't see it as a matter of "opinion". FGTH were a band. The group was fronted by Holly Johnson. This is Formal and notional agreement in UK grammar in action. And the IP editor I reverted was arguing "American site therefore American grammar", which WP:ENGVAR specifically states is not a part of the MOS. So I don't follow who is finding what pedantic. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 19:41, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree: you don't follow. Have a nice day Sir or Ma'am. Regards George Custer's Sabre (talk) 19:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
We are in agreement. If it is your intention to leave others puzzled, then you have been successful. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
  • "Others"? Just one it seems, and that was not my intention. It's now time to move on, but thanks for bothering to reply. Best wishes.George Custer's Sabre (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but was is simply correct, no matter where you were born or what continent you live on. The singular is correct even in French, because there is one band. This is not a political issue or a country-of-origin issue. Incidentally, I have no particular attachment to FGTH, nor am I from either the U.S. or the UK. I"m simply a wikifairy who corrects grammar.Tedd (talk) 01:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Then with respect, please don't "correct" any British English grammar, thanks. "FGTH were..." is correct. "FGTH was..." is incorrect. Want a clue? Take a look at one of their (official) T-shirts - it's "Frankie Say..." (plural form), not "Frankie Says..." (singular form). Back in the day, it always said "Frankie Says" on the illiterate bootleg shirts. --DaveG12345 (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

POV?

Sorry, but in the first line there, "extremely", appears to be subjective. I don't disagree that I personally thought they were great, but to just come out with "They were extremely popular...", assumes too much by the author. I wouldn't at all disagree with a statement such as "They were popular..." or "They were a popular band of the 1980's..."; but, as it stands, it seems to be telling everyone that "Hey, they were extremely popular cos I say so!" (Sorry to labour the point.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piant1963 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm reading through there are lots of subjective comments and opinions for example under "Power of Love"; "Only one week at the top THIS TIME."

Under "Welcome to the Pleasuredome" - "Cockily", "Embarrassingly", "The Snipers...".

In fact, the more I read through, the less it appears to be an encyclopedia entry than more like a "My personal opinion on what I remember about..."

I would suggest someone with, perhaps, a more objective POV rewrite the entire article. There is a lot of information there, but it's all mixed in with too much opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piant1963 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry again, apparently I have to add ```` (4 tildes, though I'm not entirely sure why). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piant1963 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"Exteremly popular" isn't too POV in this case, at the time, "Relax" was the fifth-best-selling single of all time, and the best-selling debut of any artist in British history (excluding Band Aid) and it had one of the longest chart runs in history. If that isn't "exteremly popular", what is? Although I'd agree "extremely" shouldn't be used anway. Nelson58 (talk) 00:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
They were pretty much a two-hit wonder, at least outside of England, and the half-hearted impression of their enjoying solid success was mostly a part of Paul Morley's MainMan-style marketing antics (and MTV being hungry for their videos). The album may have shipped gold in terms of record stores ordering it in large quantities but in most places it didn't actually sell over the counter, and reviews of WTTPD at the time were sceptical or disparaging to say the least, they were seen as ignorant posers. Most people who had bought the first two singles wanted nothing to do with the album, and many people assumed (rightly?) that the band couldn't really play. When their second album arrived two years later the hype around the act had effectively gone stone cold. 83.254.154.164 (talk) 06:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Relax not banned by the BBC

Relax was not banned by the BBC. Mike Read refuse to play it on his slot but it remained in the A list so got palyed in a diferent slot. 12:17, 6 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.209.84 (talk)

According to Mike Read he did not refuse to play it but dropped it for lack of time: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/11/frankie-goes-to-hollywood-relax-banned-mike-read_n_4574908.html and his inteviewx in the BBC documentary Britain's Most Dangerous Songs.PhilomenaO'M (talk) 00:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

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Name Origin

Regarding the name origin, although it's usually explained as a reference to Frank Sinatra, I'm pretty sure it was actually Frankie Vaughan, which makes a hell of a lot more sense when you consider how proud FGTH were of their Liverpool roots. (It also fits Vaughan's career path better - and of course Frankie Vaughan was actually known as Frankie, which one would have thought was a dead giveaway.) Bonalaw 14:30, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have only heard the Sinatra version. But now that you mention it, the Vaughan version seems more likely. Feel free to edit the article. 16:50, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've heard another version: that FGTH took their name from a poster (perhaps a mvie poster) which hung in their rehearsal room. If this is true, this should be "easy" to confirm...we just to find that poster and have a look if Sinatra or Vaughan is pictured on there... --Klaws 11:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

If you listen to "One September Monday" you get the definitive version of the group's name - it was a poster. And it was Sinatra. DaveG12345 03:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC) I seem to recall that it was "Frankie says...", not "Frankie say..." on the t-shirts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piant1963 (talk • contribs) 15:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The genuine T-shirts said "Frankie Say", the fakes had the (grammatically incorrect) "Says". Nelson58 (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I have heard it said that the band got their name from a headline about Frank Sinatra which said "Frankie Goes to Hollywood". Vorbee (talk) 07:59, 1 September 2018 (UTC) I have read on the web that the band got their name from an article in the New Yorker magazine which featured a picture of Frank Sinatra, and the heading of the article was "Frankie Goes to Hollywood". Vorbee (talk) 16:42, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

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FGTH basically were banned after one show

I have a different story of what happened. FGTH played only one concert in North America, and that was in Toronto. After the concert, a female reporter had asked Holly Johnson his opinion on not being able to faithfully reproduce their music, for the concert. Johnson's first three words of his answer were "Listen, you c*nt..." Nobody remembers what was said after that. I read it in the Montreal Gazette.204.48.78.139 (talk) 06:42, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Influences

Horn very cleverly marshalled the two aparently irreconcilable areas of musical taste in the group - Holly and rutherford's fondness for Hi-NRG and The Lads' admiration for the then-deeply unfashionable Pink Floyd. The mix made them irresistable to a vast range of British youth (It is notable that they were the first major pop act for about ten years not to have a "tribal" following), while it also accounts for their relative failure in the US, where their genre-hopping confused radio programmers.

Computer game

Just some trivia: Frankie Goes to Hollywood was also a computer game, on the commodore C64. It was quite good... roan (The game also appeared on the ZX Spectrum and Amstrad CPC. The music was rather better on the C64)

I added the game article to Wikipedia. Felsir 11:54, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hard Candy

anybody know how the Counting Crows song "Up All Night (Frankie Miller goes to Hollywood)" might relate to this?

NME cover

FGTH were, I think, one of the select group of artists to have featured on the front cover of the NME before they had a record contract. Am I right?

Special Concerts and other mindless trivia

FGTH were at "Rock around the Dock", a special concert as part of the renovation of the Liverpool docklands area. They did "Rage Hard" and "Warriors of the Wasteland". There is some measure of dispute over whether they were genuinely playing live, however. (If anyone has more info, that would be great.) I don't know if this was their only special, but it seems unlikely.

On a different node, FGTH was a major part of the musical revival in Britain, and Britain was kicking into high gear on revival in general. (The Liverpool Docks project, plus an effort to revive inner cities by turning scrubland into extensive international gardens were all during the same years.) It would be interesting to know how the attitudes of the time shaped FGTH and vice versa. (The music reflects the times, but the times also reflect the music. The relationship is rarely one-sided.)

Not performing during 1984?

"This rumour eventually gelled into the general accusation that "Frankie cannot play", since the group were unavailable for touring duties during the whole of 1984."

Not true. The same weekend that the first album was released (ie the last of October), FGTH flew to America for their first US tour. I don't know how many dates they played, but they were sure as hell live when they played "Born to Run" on Saturday Night Live. It is, however, true that Frankie's public performances during their summer-1984 peak consisted entirely of miming to "Relax" and "Two Tribes" on various European pop programmes.

Power of Love

I have removed "the seasonal Power of Love" as PoL is not a Christmas record. It happened to come out at Christmas and be FGTH's shot at the Christmas number one, and had a comically ornate nativity video with this in mind, but to lump it in with "I Believe in Father Christmas", Slade, Wizzard et al is just misleading.

"Peter Gill (FGTH drummer)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Peter Gill (FGTH drummer) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 28 § Peter Gill (FGTH drummer) until a consensus is reached. Popcornfud (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Picking four genres

@Binksternet Since the infobox instructions list the max number of genres for an artist as four, would you agree to remove new wave from the genre list? Nobody living in the UK in the 1980s would ever have called them that. Frankie were a pop phenomenon, they were gay disco provocateurs, Disco Pistols even, but they'd absolutely nothing to do with the New Wave which ended round the time they formed.

@Ceoil if you're able to make a short comment in support I'd greatly appreciate it (I saw you've been editing the real Pistols' page as of late). Janglyguitars (talk) 22:04, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I see your reasoning, but the problem is that there is strong sourcing for new wave. The editors of Encyclopedia of Gay and Lesbian Popular Culture wrote that the group's lead singer Holly Johnson "helped define the British New Wave music movement, a mixture of funk, rock and reggae sound." They describe how Johnson made his impact from within the group Frankie Goes to Hollwood, which means the description of his genre translates to the group's genre. Other sources describing FGtH as new wave include Vogue magazine, The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Clothing, Spin magazine, the Springer textbook New Wave: Image is Everything, and the Bloomsbury book Listen to New Wave Rock!: Exploring a Musical Genre. Plenty of authors don't see it your way. Binksternet (talk) 23:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources for 2004-2007

User:Popcornfud, thank you for your edits. Can you help me find reliable sources for the period of 2004-2007? It was very difficult. I used, as you described, two "dubious sources", however we need secondary sources for information. On the website "Zang Tuum Tumb and all that" (related to ZTT Records) can be found and accessed a whole list of reliable articles ([3]) including cited The Times (if need to check due to paywall). Among them found and cited source "Orbell, Jeremy (26 April 2006). "Frankie say it again". The Pleasureboard. zttaat.com.", I don't know whose Orbell and reliability of The Pleasureboard, but the way it is written and since it is listed deem it as reliable for verification of information which found signifcant to be mentioned, specifically (1) the number of songs and what songs they played because it shows what kind of a live reunion it was (see in comparison incusion of the information that at 2023 Eurovision performed only one song "Welcome to the Pleasuredome"; Pink Floyd#2005–2006: Live 8 reunion) (2) reception of Molloy and his performance which is very well received by the audience commentary on YouTube ([4], [5], [6]; see in comparison inclusion of the information about The Telegraph and BBC review of their performance at 2023 Eurovision). Miki Filigranski (talk) 11:30, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Why did you remove source "Bell, Max (July 2004). "Frankie say come again". Uncut." published by a reliable music magazine? We already have scarcity of sources, better have it.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 11:32, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

A while ago I did a total rewrite of the entire article, and spent a lot of time digging through sources as best I could. There was a surprising lack of coverage among secondary sources about the band's tours and performances without Holly Johnson.
I checked out the Pleasureboard source earlier. I agree that we could probably use it to expand the article a bit. However, to be honest with you, I didn't think it was well integrated, so I took it out for simplicity in the meantime, with the intent to come back to it in the next few days.
There's no problem with the Uncut source, but we already have the same info cited to the BBC. Both are good sources — we don't need both. Popcornfud (talk) 11:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. You did a great job. I wrote the paragraph on the go as found information, but three separate paragraphs as now is better.
Yeah, if we don't find anything else for the charity concert think that Orbell's article, possibly related to WP:NEWSBLOG if The Pleasureboard was a blog (?), will do for list of the songs and stating that Molloy's performance was well received (or making attribution to Orbell).
BBC News source is cited four times so using one another RS like Uncut instead of BBC News think is good for a change considering WP:WEIGHT coverage, and Uncut source has many information which can be cited in other parts of the article too.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Orbell's article not needed anymore, found reliable reviews of the concert & DVD.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:33, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

2005 tour

At Setlist.fm is stated that they on "Reunion Tour 2005" performed as Frankie Goes to Hollywood at:

  • 9 July at Pili Pili Festival in Site du Quadilatère, Visé, Belgium
  • 23 July at Big Gay Out in Finsbury Park, London, England
  • 29 July at/in Time Nightclub, Naas, Dublin, Ireland
  • 20 August at Northampton Balloon Festival in The Racecourse, Northampton, England
  • 24 August at/in Salle des Étoiles Sporting Club, Monte-Carlo, Monaco
  • 1 September at/in Paradiso Grote Zaal, Amsterdam, Netherlands

Reliable proof that those events were really held, besides other few RS and words by Molloy himself, is by photographer Yui Mok who uploaded photos of Molloy taken on 23 July 2005 at Big Gay Out, Finsbury Park on Alamy ([7], [8], [9]) and on Getty Images ([10], [11], [12]).

English Wikipedia has an article about Big Gay Out (London), it was a short-lived but notable music event. Reliable news sources specifically mentioning FGTH in relation to the Big Gay Out are "Top five gigs nationwide" (2005, The Times), "Have a Big Gay Out in Finsbury Park" (2005, Resident Advisor), "Terrorist Threat Does Not Hamper Big Gay Out" (2005, PinkNews), "Homofestival med overskudd" (2005, Blikk).

Considering positive WP:VERIFY and notability the information about the Big Gay Out event should be included in the article, as a short continuation of the sentence "The Wembley performance was followed by a series of concerts across Europe in 2005".--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

2007 tour

According to promotional newsletter information shared (now available) by Reflections of Darkness ([13]) and Side-Line ([14]) in April 2007, is stated that the March 2007 reformed band titled as Forbidden Hollywood had "confirmed Live Performances" for the "summer":

  • UK 03.7. Dudley JB`s
  • UK 04.7. Leeds Rio
  • N 07.7. Treana Treana Festival
  • UK 11.7. London CC Club
  • D 13.7. Gräfenhainichen MELT !
  • D 14.7. Hamburg Elbinsel Festival
  • more shows coming up in August, Full EU tour in Sep 07

At Ents24 (https://www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/forbidden-hollywood) are listed only two concerts: Dudley JB's and Leeds Rio.

At Setlist.fm there's no date for 2007.

At Zttaat.com alongisde Dudley, Leeds, Treana, Gräfenhainichen, Hamburg dates is mentioned as "cancelled".

Seemingly there's no source, textual or visual, mentioning/showing anything about it.

Considering negative VERIFY seems like there's no information to be included in the article. Seemingly the band was reformed on March 2007 as Forbidden Hollywood due to the still on-going trademark dispute, but the scheduled tour dates were seemingly cancelled after mid-2007 verdict about the trademark dispute because of which the formation of a new band due to the same dispute became pointless, but for some unknown reason the activities stopped - actually - never even started. At least since September 2007, Molloy was active with other projects in his solo career. That's what personally can deduce from the available information at the moment.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 19:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

"Who needs a field to have a festival?" (May 2007, The Guardian), regarding the 13 July date at Melt! Festival, line-up mentions "Frankie Says: Melt! (Rutherford, Gill & O'Toole playing the songs of Frankie Goes To Hollywood)", but cannot confirm whether they performed. --Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
"Frankie Goes" (2009, Record Collector), mentions "2005 [clearly error, 2007*] promised a full European tour but sadly all dates were cancelled due to behind the scene issues and the promise of new FGTH material, after a 20+ year wait, was not to be. Mark headed back to the USA and Paul to New Zealand. Ped and Paul are currently working on some things together. The ‘kid singer’ Neil referred to was Ryan Molloy who has had huge success as West End in roles such as Frankie Valli in Jersey Boys. On the subject of former FGTH members fans may find it interesting to know that Brian ‘Nasher’ Nash has his third solo album (A Lo Minimo) due out this year sometime".--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
There's a lot here. Give me a few days and I'll chew it over and see what we can do. Popcornfud (talk) 10:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Sure, take your time. Think that saying, as it is now, "Due to behind the scene issues, lack of recording material and members' busy schedule, planned European tour was cancelled and future activities stopped.[51]" substantiated by Record Collector is good enough without further details although would be nice to know whether Forbidden Hollywood actually performed at some of the scheduled six dates.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 11:27, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Correction, "[clearly error, 2007*]" is my mistake and there's no error, the information was correct. In the internet archive can be found on their official website, first click "enter" then on "tour dates", news from 14 September 2005 and 15 October 2005, stating "Sad news today for Frankie fans hoping to see the band perform during October's UK Tour - next month's tour has unfortunately been postponed until the band release a new FGTH single & album! Probably to coincide with a European tour - expected summer 2006" and "The band are currently writing new songs in the States and will be back in the recording studio early next year as planned - the new Frankie album and tour will follow as previously stated".--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I've trimmed and copyedited some of the recent additions. I've removed some statements attributed to WP:PRIMARY sources such as Nash's memoir and the Frankie website, because 1) they didn't seem greatly important or illuminating and 2) Wikipedia shouldn't lean too heavily on these sorts of sources, and instead rely on WP:SECONDARY sources, on the assumption that the accuracy of their use of primary sources has been vetted. (And really, if a reliable secondary source hasn't covered it, then the information might not be that important.) Popcornfud (talk) 04:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Agree, that's fine. Thank you, think we did a good job with the section. Now maybe 1984-86 period(s) need some expansion and/or editing "citation needed".--Miki Filigranski (talk) 16:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources for 1984-1987

@Popcornfud:

edit removing mention of European tour January-March 1987 - I don't know exactly now where read that information, possibly Nash's memoir, but it's probably easy to find a source.

edit removing Horn - "Trevor makes clear in the book that he blames the appearance on the scene of Holly Johnson’s boyfriend Wolfgang for Frankie’s disintegration". A fast search of Horn's memoir finds several mentions of Wolfgang, including "was another wedge - perhaps the biggest - that was slowly driving the band apart", "In the end of the things that triggered the court case was Wolfgang saying 'You can't afford him. You haven't got enough money. Sell your..." etc. Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Also found this in Nash's memoir: on pages 123-124 writes in details how in 1984 Johnson registered Frankie Goes To Hollywood Limited (the company with which tried to get exclusive rights to the trademark in 2004) without informing and appointing other members as equal directors, claiming he won't take away the name for himself, but "our initial anger and resentment at him going behind our back was appeased when it was decided to draw up a heads of agreement, in the form of a memo, that stated if any member of the group left then permission would be sought from the leaving member for the remaining members to carry on using the name. The memo was signed and everybody was happy with the brief terms outlined within it. When I signed my name on that memo I never realised the impact that a single sheet of paper would have in the years ahead. Holly gave no explanation in his book and closed the brief chapter with the following: "It did begin a process of alienation between me and the rest of the band". No shit, Sherlock! I never looked at him in the same light again and things would never be the same between us again. We would continue as a band for three more years, but the opening salvo in what would become the war of the two tribes within Frankie had just been fired", that's what he was referring to on page 357 "the memo signed all those years ago, when we had realised Holly had registered the name, came back to haunt the guys" about 2004 trademark dispute. So, besides Johnson's boyfriend influence and presence, the distancing between Johnson and the band was caused by this Johnson's act of secretly registering the company without other band members.

I think the registration is worthwhile for short mention in section 1984-1985, something along the lines "In the same year, Johnson registered without noticing other band members the company Frankie Goes to Hollywood Limited" or "Ltd.", and then adding in 2003-2007 section "In April 2004, Johnson attempted via Frankie Goes To Hollywood Ltd. to register..." (as is written in The Times: Mike Foley, a trademark adjudicator from the UK Intellectual Property Office, supported the attempt by Peter Gill, Mark O’Toole, Paul Rutherford and Brian Nash to block the application made by Johnson’s company, Frankie Goes To Hollywood Ltd. and Law Society of Scotland: in April 2004 Holly Johnson’s company “Frankie Goes to Hollywood Limited” applied to register the trade mark “Frankie Goes to Hollywood.” If successfully trademarked, the original members’ use of this name would have constituted trade mark infringement and they would have been unable to continue their comeback using this name.) --Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is a link to 24-page official verdict. It is dated to 25 May 2007. It basically has all the details. The first Frankie Goes to Hollywood Ltd was formed in June 1984 and dissolved on 14 June 1988. Johnson reincorporated, again alone, the Frankie Goes to Hollywood Limited on 8 January 2004 (here is a link to the second company).--Miki Filigranski (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, we need to be careful with the WP:PRIMARY sources here. If these things haven't been covered by WP:SECONDARY sources, then they probably don't warrant much detail on Wikipedia. Popcornfud (talk) 06:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Records at #1 & #2

The claim that FGTH were the first act to hold the top two positions in the chart since the Beatles is incorrect. John Lennon achieved this on 31 January 1981 with Imagine and Woman. Technically he also did it on 10 January with Imagine and Happy Xmas (War Is Over), but the latter credited Yoko & The Plastic Ono Band etc.

The source of the claim is The Guardian, so I don't suppose they bothered checking. Theinevitiblespoon (talk) 16:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

We'll need a new source to update this, do you have one we can use? Popcornfud (talk) 16:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
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