Talk:Elric of Melniboné/Archive 2

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A fictional drug addict?[edit]

Why is he in the fictional drug addictscategory?I don't remember him being an addict.Can anybody give some information about it?Dimts 16:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Prior to his acquisition of Stormbringer, he was dependent upon magic potions to maintain his strength. Tsunomaru 02:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The psychological definition of drug dependence (addiction) requires that the individual repeatedly fail to discontinue use of the drug despite negative consequences. Since remaining alive is generally considered a positive consequence, I don't think this would fit (any more than we consider diabetics "insulin addicts.") Inhumandecency 13:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would tend to agree, but its important to be aware that applying modern morality to that of the 1960's is bound to go sideways without noting the numerous scifi critiques on drug use in literature of the time. I am not sure Elric's usage actually rises to the level of a drug addiction, but rather to show how worn out the entire Melniboneans had become. some critics found modern, real-world comparisons to the melniboneans. It would be worth finding them, i think. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 17:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Elric wasn't a drug addict. He was dependant on potions to give him strength as he was born vary weak and sickly. Many people today have diseases or problems that reuire constant drug therapy. A couple of exaples of this inclue diabetes and HIV/AIDS. I don't think such peple woud be classified as drug addicts. In fact, the character of Elric was unlike many Melniboneans who were drug addicts, content to spend their days in drugged stupors dreaming of the glory days of their empire. Signed Ethan a dawe (talk) 22:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC) (Not a clown at all.)[reply]
You make a fairly cogent point. The issue of his "drug addiction" might be a late 20th- early 21st century observation. What do you propose for the article then? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 01:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would think an explanation of his weakness and how his father and then he himself used potions to give him strength would be appropriate. It may also be worth mentioning how he is different from other Meliniboneans who do abuse drugs and while away the their days in drug induced euphoria. I don't have my copies of the series handy at this particular point. He definetly should not be listed in the fictional drug addicts category though. Ethan a dawe (talk) 00:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:00, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elf[edit]

I've just now started reading Elric but in the past I've heard him described as an elf. Is he or other Melnibonéans specifically referred to as such in the Saga? Cerdic 22:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would say this is more of a simile than an actual description. Melnibonéans, I believe, tend to have the delicate and sharp features and pale skin oftentimes associated with fantasy elves. Elric in particular is exceptionally frail, a trait sometimes associated with elves. Add to that the fact that the Melnibonéans have a propensity for the study and practice of magic, and you've got a long list of similarities, but not an equation. Tsunomaru 18:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. It was a good idea I think for Moorcock not to saddle his creations with the traditional elfin label and all the preconceptions (and restrictions) that would go along with it, and yet provide us with enough similarities that the reader could still relate to the Melnibonéans as an otherworldly race. Cerdic 23:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here be cruft (and uncited)[edit]

The article is rife with fan supposition which while all nifty and whatnot, cannot remain uncited. I would hate to start trimming the article of its uncited parts, so perhaps some enterprising sould could start the work. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 10:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there are a lot of citation tags in the article, and they shouldn;t be removed unless they are replaced with references. Its an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias are cited. for example, who says Melniboné is pronounced the way someone has edited that it does? Find a source, because some fanboi is not an adequate source. The only one who could probably do that is Moorcock himself, and he likely has the proper citations wherein he enunciated the correct pronunciation in an article over the last thirty or so years. And that is just the most obvious example. there are twochoices here - either the info gets cited, or it gets removed. There isn't a third choice. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 07:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am thinking I will have to spend an hour or two this weekend looking for citations from some of the tagged items. They've been sitting around like unwanted, red-headed stepchildren, not getting any attention. maybe it will inspite otehrs to add some, too. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Or you could just delete all the fancruft, and leave the article at 2 lines or so. Then anyone who wants to restore it can actually do the work themselves, or GTFO. Actually, having now read the 'article' in full, I will just go ahead and remove the unreferenced fancruft myself as of 1-Jan-2008. Fair warning. Rogerborg (talk) 12:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Warning received, thanks. I might just help you along. We might want to consider re-writing the resultant stubby article so as to avoid the AfD that will likely occur afterward. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Deep Purple[edit]

I removed Deep Puple from the music section based on this quote from Michael Moorcock on his website http://www.multiverse.org/fora/showpost.php?s=6220de79c318c02e3734ddf34aa58a25&p=4810&postcount=7 Ethan a dawe (talk) 20:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Sections[edit]

The following material was removed from the article as it had been largely uncited (in some places for over a year). I am bringing it here as I think some of the material can be cited by the willing. It cannot return to the article without reliable citation. Note that some of the material here, most notably music, appears to be a crufty little list.

Elric, a counterstereotype
Elric presents an excellent example of a counterstereotype, because he was written specifically as the polar opposite of Robert E. Howard's Conan and similar fantasy heroes[citation needed]. Instead of a mighty-thewed barbarian warrior who fights his way from obscurity to achieve fame and power[citation needed], Elric is a frail, sickly albino, a highly-educated and cultured (often downright decadent) emperor who abandons his throne[citation needed]. Whereas the conventional fantasy hero[citation needed] rescues fair maidens from evil wizards and monsters and defends his country from invaders, Elric (inadvertently) slays his true love, is himself a powerful wizard in league with the Chaos lord Arioch, summons monsters to aid himself in battle, and leads a successful invasion against his homeland of Melniboné. Finally, while fantasy heroes often begin as novices and gradually become more skilled and powerful over time[citation needed], Elric steadily loses his throne, his homeland, his family and friends, and his magical resources[citation needed].
Elric's tragic hero character is also inspired by the character of Monsieur Zenith created by pulp author Anthony Skene and Kullervo from the Finnish epic Kalevala[citation needed].
Kullervo and Zenith both cited and added back. Jclemens (talk) 01:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Elric is also one of the few sympathetic albino characters in Western fantasy literature[citation needed], where characters with albinism are usually villains (see Evil albino)[citation needed]. His image is generally idealized, his albinism treated as a thing of beauty – the stories are replete with descriptions of his "long flowing locks of white hair", "flawless bone-white skin" and "delicate, almost female features."[citation needed]
Moorcock's characterisation of Elric is that of a doomed hero based heavily upon Scandinavian mythology[citation needed], a person whose actions lead to ruin, and ultimately death[citation needed]. Moorcock dwells as much upon Elric's paleness as Snorri Sturluson does upon Balder's similar legendary pallor (which, however, is not said to be a function of albinism as in Elric's case[citation needed]) in the Younger Edda – compare:
He is best, and all praise him; he is so fair of feature, and so bright, that light shines from him. A certain herb is so white that it is likened to Baldr's brow; of all grasses it is whitest, and by it thou mayest judge his fairness, both in hair and in body.|Snorri Sturluson}}
It is the color of a bleached skull, his flesh; and the long hair which flows below his shoulders is milk-white. From the tapering, beautiful head stare two slanting eyes, crimson and moody, and from the loose sleeves of his yellow gown emerge two slender hands, also the color of bone. Michael Moorcock Elric of Melniboné
He is a complex character[citation needed], prone to self-loathing, brooding and despair, compelled to adventure by his desire to understand his own dark fate rather than a desire for riches or glory[citation needed].
Being Emperor of Melniboné, he is a servant of the Lords of Chaos. Unlike his fellow Melnibonéans, who are decadent, cruel, and mostly devoid of sentiment and the gentler passions, Elric is plagued by his conscience, has modern sensibilities and is very curious about the outside world[citation needed]. Melnibonéans are somewhat like elves[citation needed] – but more like the amoral fairies in Jack Vance's Lyonesse books than J. R. R. Tolkien's majestic peoples[citation needed] – and "Elric" is a form of the Old English Ælfric which means elf ruler[citation needed]. In this way, Elric breaks the mold of the stereotypical albino depicted in stories as a heartless monster[citation needed].
Elric is the (often unwilling) tool of his evil, sentient sword Stormbringer, which is itself a parody of the normal sword-and-sorcery hero's weapon[citation needed]. In Stormbringer, the sickly Elric finds the energy he needs, but at a terrible price – Stormbringer feeds on the souls of those it slays and gives part of their life force to sustain Elric. Stormbringer is willful, and by no means under Elric's control:
This sword here at my side don't act the way it should/Keeps calling me its master, but I feel like its slave.Blue Öyster Cult|"Black Blade" (lyrics by Michael Moorcock)}}[citation needed]
As an embodiment of the Eternal Champion[citation needed], which mainly takes the form of a champion of Law, Elric is torn between his ancestry and his destiny[citation needed]. Consequently, as the saga progresses Elric's allegiance turns from Chaos towards Law[citation needed]. He eventually comes to represent a balance between these forces[citation needed] as he develops a hatred for all gods, both of Law and Chaos, for their manipulation of mortals. At the end, Elric's hopes for a world without gods who make a misery of human lives, results in his death while attempting to bring such a world into being[citation needed].
(from 'Publishing History'):
Although Elric's "true" saga takes place over a number of books, this series intertwines with a number of others set in a multiverse that Moorcock created[citation needed]. Although complete by itself, fans claim it cannot be truly complete without the other books as well[citation needed].
In 1989 and 1991 two further novels were written by Michael Moorcock but quite clearly, Moorcock's views on heroic fantasy had changed[citation needed] in the thirty years since he first wrote about Elric and as a result these two novels had a very different feel from the earlier stories[citation needed]. This change is not surprising given that the first Elric story was published at the very beginning of Moorcock's career[citation needed].
This new set of eight novels was the basis of two omnibus editions published in the UK by Millennium within its The Tale of the Eternal Champion series (and later in the US by White Wolf)[citation needed]:
White Wolf published an anthology of new Elric stories, Michael Moorcock’s Elric: Tales of the White Wolf, ed. Edward E. Kramer, in the US in 1994, and an anthology of new Eternal Champion stories, Pawns of Chaos: Tales of the Eternal Champion, ed. Edward E. Kramer, which includes four new Elric stories, in the US in 1996[citation needed].
Starting in 2001, Michael Moorcock began publishing a new set of Elric novels, which was completed in 2005[citation needed]. The new trilogy consists of The Dreamthief's Daughter (2001 - ISBN 0446611204), The Skrayling Tree (2003 - previously announced as [The] Silverskin - ISBN 0446613401) and The White Wolf's Son (2005 - previously announced as Mournblade and Swordsman of Mirenburg - ISBN 0446577022). These latest novels stand somewhat apart from the main Elric sequence and they overlap with his Ulrich von Bek stories[citation needed].
(from 'Adaptations'):
Stormbringer (along with creatures and artifacts from many other sources) appears as an artifact in the roguelike computer game NetHack. Other roguelikes, particularly those in the ZAngband branch of the Angband family also feature Stormbringer, among other Eternal Champion references. The ZAngband variant called Gumband is more explicitly themed around Moorcock's writings, even including Elric as an enemy unique — to the dismay of many who consider fighting any of the aspects of the Champion (several of whom are in the game) to be sacrilege.
As of April 2007, the Elric property has been optioned by Universal and negotiations are currently underway to produce a live-action movie. A script has been written, but has not been made public.
(from 'References to Elric in popular culture'):
In the Babylon 5 episode "The Geometry of Shadows", the leader of the Technomage order is named Elric in homage[citation needed] to Michael Moorcock's Elric novels.
        • Cited and added back in. Jclemens ([[User

talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 06:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

          • Your citations look like they all link to blogs or message boards, hardly suitable links.--Dr who1975 (talk) 18:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Prince Arthas Menethil in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos by Blizzard Entertainment is near identical to Elric in terms of his appearance, his soul-eating runesword (Frostmourne), and his invasion of his homeland.
The Necromancer in Blizzard Entertainment's Diablo II has a similar appearance to Elric.
In Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, there is a sword called Mourneblade that heals the player character whenever it's used.
One of the recurring antagonists in the 2000AD comic strip Sláine is named Elfric. He is depicted as pale-skinned with glowing red eyes.
Although Elric was nearly unknown as a given name before the advent of the Moorcockian hero, it has been known to be chosen by a number of fantasy fans for their children to bear.[citation needed]
The Soul Reaver, the sword that appears throughout the Legacy of Kain videogame series (Crystal Dynamics) is also a devourer of souls, granting its frail master's body nourishment. Also in Soul Reaver 2, Raziel's sword turns on him and drains his soul. Raziel realises that the essence of the blade had always been himself. Elric experienced an extremely similar moment after the final defeat of Chaos.
Ironically, while Elric was conceived as a counterstereotype, he might be the origin of the fantasy genre cliché of characters with albinism usually being sorcerers, psychics or otherwise "supernatural". (examples – Skywise from Elfquest, the title character of Powder, Kaworu Nagisa from Neon Genesis Evangelion and the female necromancer who is the mascot of Guild Wars)
Elric shares some similarities with J. R. R. Tolkien's Túrin Turambar, who appears in various versions of what would be printed as The Silmarillion. Both are anti-heroes, both are based on Kullervo, both wield sentient black swords (both one of a pair — though this specific detail is not yet present in the earliest version of Túrin's story, found in The Book of Lost Tales, written in the 1920s), both unwittingly kill friends or lovers with them, and both are killed by them. The first Elric stories were published before The Silmarillion, so the detail of the black sword(s) may have been conceived independently by both writers. Incidentally, Moorcock happens to dislike Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, and compared it to Winnie-the-Pooh in an essay, "Epic Pooh".
The elf Belphanior, one of the main heroes in Thomas Miller's saga The Adventurers, resembles Elric in his adventurers' skills, having eyes that glow red, and possessing a soul-eating black sword (Blackrazor) that lends strength to its wielder. The powerful sorcerer and wanted criminal Belphanior has a personality quite different from the personality of Elric, however. Though harsh and stern, Belphanior is just and energetic, praises personal and general freedom, and refuses to be the servant of any powerful supernatural entity.
Music
Many bands have written songs relating to the Elric series; Moorcock worked on the production of some of them himself.
Hawkwind (British rock band), detailed Elric's story on their album Chronicle of the Black Sword (1985). Moorcock appears with Hawkwind on the double live version of the Live Chronicles album where he narrates the tale and provides poetic interludes to move the plot along.
Blue Öyster Cult's song "Black Blade" on their album Cultosaurus Erectus (1980) was co-written by Moorcock, using Elric's point-of-view.
3 Inches of Blood (Canadian metal band) have a song influenced by Elric and other Michael Moorcock characters. This track is titled "Sailor on the Seas of Fate". They have also recorded a trilogy of songs known as the "Upon The Boiling Sea" trilogy. While "The Boiling Sea" is an area of the ocean described in several of the Elric novels, the songs themselves do not refer to Elric or any other of Moorcock's characters, and appear to have nothing to do with Elric or any other of Moorcock's works.
Blind Guardian (German power metal band) have three songs based on or referencing Elric. These songs are "Damned For All Time" and "Fast to Madness" (both found on their Follow the Blind album) and "Quest for Tanelorn" (found on their Somewhere Far Beyond album). They have also performed songs referencing Hawkmoon and Corum.
Domine (Italian metal band) have a number of songs based on the Elric saga. These songs are "The Eternal Champion" and "The Chronicles of the Black Sword" (from the Champion Eternal album), followed by "Last of the Dragonlords (Lord Elric's Imperial March)" and "Dragonlord (The Grand Master of the Mightiest Beasts)" (from the Dragonlord (Tales of the Noble Steel) album), followed by "Horn of Fate", "The Bearer of the Black Sword", "For Evermore", and "Dawn of a New Age (A Celtic Requiem)" (found on the Stormbringer Ruler album), "Arioch, the Chaos Star" and "The Song of the Swords" (from the Emperor of the Black Runes album), and finally, "I Stand Alone (After the Fall)" (from the Ancient Spirit Rising album). Additionally, Elric (and Stormbringer) are featured on the cover art for all of their albums. They have also done a song based on Corum, and Michael Moorcock himself is specifically thanked and noted as an influence in the liner notes for each of their albums.
Apollo Ra (American metal band) have a song, "Bane of the Black Sword", on their Ra Pariah album, which deals with Elric's adventures.
Cirith Ungol (American metal band) have a song, "Nadsokor", on their One Foot In Hell album, referencing Elric and the city of beggars found in the Elric saga. The song "Master of the Pit" on the previous album, King of the Dead, also seems to be about Elric slaying Arioch as it mentions a "doom-driven blade drinking the soul of the master". Michael Whelan's paintings of Elric are also featured on the cover art of all 4 Cirith Ungol albums, effectively making him the band's mascot the same way Iron Maiden has Eddie the Head and Megadeth has Vic Rattlehead.
Battleroar (Greek metal band) have the song "Mourning Sword" on their self-titled album, which deals with Elric and his sword. On their album Age of Chaos they also have the song "Dyvim Tvar" about this minor character.
Doomsword (Italian metal band) features the Elric-based song "Return to Imryyr" on their self-titled debut album. This album also features the band covering the Elric related song "Nadsokor" originally performed by Cirith Ungol.
Dark Moor (Spanish metal band) features an Elric related song titled "The Fall of Melnibone" as a bonus track on the Japanese edition of their album Hall of the Olden Dreams. The song was later made available to the American and European markets on the album Between Light and Darkness.
Diamond Head (NWOBHM band) has the song "Borrowed Time" on their Borrowed Time album, dealing with Elric and told from his point of view. He is also featured on the album's cover artwork.
Tygers of Pan Tang (NWOBHM) took their name from the island of Pan Tang, a land of human sorcerers.
Agnes Vein (Greek metal band) has the song "Sailor on the Seas of Fate" on their Of Chaos and Law album, dealing with Elric and his sword. The album title is also a reference to Michael Moorcock's writings.
UK hard rock band Magnum mention Elric and his sword in the song "Stormbringer" off the reissue of their Kingdom of Madness album. It was one of the very first songs they recorded, and was not commercially available until this reissue.
Panacea (German drum n bass artist) has a song titled "Stormbringer" on the album "Low Profile Darkness".
The song "Heros Grief" by German technical thrash band Mekong Delta is about Elric.
Yyrkoon (French thrash metal band) is named after Elric's cousin.
Italian epic metal band Assedium has the Elric based song "The Messenger of Chaos" on their debut album Rise of the Warlords.
Aftershok's (US classic metal band) "Sons Of Thunder" (the lead track from their second CD, ";Burning Chrome") is based on the Elric character.
Salem's Lot (American Metal Band) has the Elric based song "Elric of Melnibone'" on their debut album "Salem's Lot" on Chaos Records . The weblink is www.myspace.com/salemslot90 .
Hyatus (American Metal Band) has an Elrick based song entitled "Sailors on the Seas of Fate" by: Gary Thomas recorded at a live performance in Grand Rapids, MI

- Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I'm not sure what the point of this article is. It purports to be about a single character, but then winds up giving a list of all the characters in the books instead of giving a history of Elric? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.239.124.44 (talk) 22:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Removed Sections' discussion[edit]

I'm not sure what standards of verifiability you're looking for in this context, Arcayne. WP:V references material "challenged or likely to be challenged" and I don't see much/any of this material, especially cultural references, engendering challenges. Have you, or has someone else, challenged the authenticity of these? If not, then I'd like a better understanding of why the high bar for including some pretty obvious cultural references. Some seem pretty trivial, but they do speak to the overall influence of Elric in popular culture. This is art citing prior art, for the most part, not assertions of fact. Jclemens (talk) 18:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, I just asked you to discuss your edit here before checking the discussion page. Thanks for that. :)
Yes, I do tend to set the bar rather high when it comes to verifiability an reliability of sources, J. I treat this article as I would Ronald Reagan, Nuclear proliferation or Braveheart. Wikipedia being an encyclopedia, it isn't a random collection of information. Fan forums are not considered reliable sources of info for a great many reasons, chief amongst them being the unreliability of the info being notes and the anonymous nature of fan forums make the provenance of any "official" information suspect.
I would suggest that, for reliable sources, you seek sources outside the fan forums. I know that B5 was featured in a great many scifi magazines during its run. The usage of the name Elric might have generated some buzz, and therefore a properly citable reference with provenance. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you notice that the two new references included 1) Moorcock himself calling it a "direct homage" in a post on his own website, and 2) an archive of JMS responding to a post in which the author draws analogies from Elric, and JMS does not dispute the attribution? I'm not sure how much more authoritative you want, but those are NOT simple fan forums--they're Internet-based primary sources.
Furthermore, the The_Lurker's_Guide_to_Babylon_5 isn't just any fan forum, but a resource considered so authoritative, it has it's own Wikipedia page, is repeatedly cited as a reference in the main Babylon 5 article, and is consistently the first Google-returned reference when I search for any set of terms related to this topic. As far as any sci-fi magazines, I neither own any, nor am I able to find any Internet-published 'zines in English which covered that era--13+ years ago! If you'd really like, I suppose one of us could email JMS, since he's still living and writing, and ask specifically, but short of that, I have documented the fact above and beyond the level of anything else in any similar article... or in this article itself! It's simply not reasonable to ask for this level of detail to include an uncontested cultural reference when the rest of the article lacks citation so thoroughly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclemens (talk • contribs) 21:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, I have it. It's indisputable that Moorcock calls it a straight homage, so I've rephrased the original text from saying that it is, to saying that Moorcock *says it is*. That, hopefully should be a narrow and well-enough documented claim to withstand any reasonable scrutiny. If no one objects, I'll probably use the same sort of update to the B5 episode guides and influences pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclemens (talk • contribs) 23:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most excellent find. Normally, forums are a non-no, but one where Moorcock is responding personally is too notable to pass up. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pop trivia removed[edit]

Without solid references, these cannot remain in the article:

- Arcayne (cast a spell) 03:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, they can and should. I'm returning them to the article with citation tags, to allow people time to cite them. You'll note that most of them are at least cross referenced to other Wikipedia sections and that some of those referenced have back-references to this article. In the mean time, how about you apply the same level of scrutiny to the unsourced and unreferenced assertions in the rest of the article? Or is there some particular reason you think that Elric's influence on culture and media is less notable and/or requires higher standards of proof than the description of the stories? Jclemens (talk) 04:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Each entry now has at least one citation. Before removing any of them again, please add citation tags to the main page and note the objection in your comments, so I can adequately address each one in turn. Per Wikipedia:Ref#Dealing_with_citation_problems deletion of unsourced facts is appropriate "if no source is produced within a reasonable time." Jclemens (talk) 05:04, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I apreciate you taking the time to cite them - many folk are too lazy to do it (as I commented on your user talk page). The problems with the citatiosn you have added are as follows:
  • the black blade song reference was not actually penned by Moorcock et. al. in concert, but rather, the band giving literary homage to him for the song idea. Nowhere in hte song does it specifically state that the song is about either Elric or Stormbringer. Unless you can find a citation that says specifically that, it needs citation.
  • appearance by Elric in Conan comics needs citation, not a wikilink to another article in Wikipedia. As per the Manual of Style we don't do that. It's much like defining the color red by how red it is.
  • the Cerebus parody needs a citation better than that of a web forum. As I mentioned on our user talk page, unless the forum link is of extraordinary value (i.e., the author saying, 'yep, I did that'), they as a whole are not reliable or verifiable enough for usage.
As I noted in your user page, I will wait until Sunday before removing these items back tot he article discussion page, where they should stay until cited in such a way that it meets all of Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. Until then, I've tagged the above items with 'cn' tags, having removed the faulty citations. If I can answer any questions you might have, please do not hesitate to ask. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks for the communication and the collaborative edits to what I just added--I agree they tightened the BOC reference up substantially. I haven't been able to find anything for the Cerebus reference aside from the Wiki about the series. Can you take a look at it again and double check to see if you can agree to its sufficiency as a source? Jclemens (talk) 06:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the source hasn't changed, then it isn't good enough. It's essentially a blog written by "Cerebuswiki", a clear nickname for an online site. His word isn't good (read: reliable, [[WP:NOTE|notable or verifiable) enough to use. However, I looked a the reference again and found that Dave Sim apparently directly tied the Elric stuff to Elrod:
Dave Speaks about Elrod
From the introduction to issue #4 in Swords of Cerebus #1
"Elrod is a parody of Elric, a swords and sorcery character created by Michael Moorcock. More specifically, he is a parody of Elric's appearances in the Conan comic books by Roy Thomas and Barry Smith (issues 14 and 15), which in turn were visually based on the covers to paperback Elric novels painted by Jack Gaughan. Dave Sim, at least as of 1981, has never read an Elric story (other than the ones that appeared in the Conan comics)"
All that we need to do is to follow the trail of bread loaves here and find a copy of issue number four of Cerebus #1 to verify that Sim does in fact say that. We need to do that because - as I said before - "Cerebuswiki" isn't a reliable source. We need to verify it for ourselves. If there is an online source that relates Sim and Elric and addresses this specifically, then we have something we can use.
I should point out that I just searched "David Sim" and "Elric", and the closest source I found was here, which still doesn't explicitly connect the two. Thoughts? - Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cerebuswiki appears to be a domain-specific collaborative effort modeled after Wikipedia, rather than an individual's blog, but the quote you found that alleges to be from Dave Sim seems actually to be from another secondary source, a fan-written "The Annotated Cerebus." Google the entire first sentence of the quote and it shows up about 3 places, seems to have been first posted to Usenet. In that context, it appears to be a fan's pronouncement, rather than Sim's direct quote. At any rate, I have nothing else, and if that's not good enough, then go ahead and move the quote back to this talk page until someone more familiar with Cerebus can dig something else up to authoritatively cite. Jclemens (talk) 17:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, most excellent job in finding the truth there. You have done splendid work here today and acted quite graciously with my requests. You should be proud of it. You run into problems int he future, you let me know; you now have an ally. :)

Time for "Elric in Popular Culture"?[edit]

Per Wikipedia:"In_popular_culture"_articles, and given the amount of churn we're having on sources, I think that it may be appropriate to break out the cultural references section into its own article. I look at all the references in fiction and music, and if included and properly cited, they would dominate this article. I also believe that squabbling over the citation of references in popular culture detracts from the real problem of the article: that, other than that section, the article is almost completely uncited. Thoughts? Jclemens (talk) 05:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to begin with, describing the natual back-and-forth of editing as squabbling is a bit aggressive, wouldn't you say? The article needs citations, sure. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 05:34, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a fair point. I'm not used to working collaboratively with someone who is aggressive at removal as you are, but I'm learning not to take it personally. The main point I was trying to make, however, is that we seem to be investing a huge amount of effort to improve what I perceive to be the least important section of the article. Jclemens (talk) 06:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point about the weakness of the other parts of the article. They will work themselves out in time, especially since the section now tightening itself out can serve as a guideline for the rest of the piece.
As for my removal of uncited info, you needn't take it personally at all. People usually don't know what needs citation until it is pointed out to them. People usually don't get off their duffs until that info goes bye-bye. Not to put too fine a point on it, but you leapt into action after I repaired the material to the Discussion page, right?
Lastly,I'd point out that after you told me you were working the piece, I didn't get into an edit-war with you about it. I was happy you were knocking out citations, and (mostly) excellent ones, at that. I gave you the time to put them together, doing no more than adding cn tags to replace those references which weren't that strong. I'm not that hard to work with; I just hate having to cover the same ground repeatedly. Once a citation/section is done, it shouldn't need further examination, like, 'job done; what's next?' That's why I am a stickler for making sure the cites are the best they can be to start out with. Good cites means good articles. GA and FA articles. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 08:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirection from yyrkoon[edit]

Hi, I just searched for the band yyrkoon and gor redirected to this page seemingly because a character who exists in the same fictional world as the character wich this page is about is called Yyrkoon and is mentioned briefly on this page. It seems to me that the band Yyrkoon is more relevant then a this particular character. Searching for Yyrkoon in google almost exclusively yeilds pages refering to the band. Wether or not you agree with the band being more relevant than the character I think most people would agree that there should atleast be a link to the band page, a link to a disambiguation page or a redirection to a disambiguation page when you search for Yyrkoon. I am very green when it comes to editing wikipedia however, so I would be very grateful if someone who is a little more experienced could fix this. Thx /Oscar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.114.187 (talk) 00:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So... Sounds like we need to
Am I missing anything? Jclemens (talk) 02:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up[edit]

This article is in huge need of a clean-up. It starts off talking about characters? That seems rather backwards. If this is supposed to be an article about a series of stories, it probably would be best to start off with its premise and a brief synopsis rather than talking about the characters. RobertM525 (talk) 05:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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