Talk:Country Club, Bronx

(Part of Pelham Bay?)

Is Country Club a subsection of Pelham Bay? I never thought so, but I recently noticed there is a church on Ampere Avenue called the Pelham Bay Assembly of God. Any thoughts on this? -Wizard1022 03:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ya rly 69.121.66.69 00:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Near undo

   If the edits i gave my attention to had been fresh, i'd have undone and then washed my hands of it; it was a long, hard edit.
   In the lead section:

1. I restored two Ref-needed tags:
   • Nothing was done to address this presumably obvious complaint: demonstrating exceeding the natl avg property value requires a source that states the natl avg property value.
   • In the other case, their removing the tag on Summer of Sam apparently didn't rate even an IwTm claim.
2. The reverted material did reference a source that includes four columns, each for an arguably relevant local statistic; we must presume this ref supports some assertion of how several neighborhoods compare.
   • Perhaps the reason for Riverdale being one of these that it ranks 1st on each of 3 of the statistics, but it is in the furthest (northwest) corner of the Bronx, while ...
   • Schuylerville is to the south, and quite close, ...
   • and then there's "Pelham", not linked to any article; the problems with it are compounded by the evidence that the colleague is satisfied to refer to the Country Club neighborhood as a "town". Pelham, by the way, is closer to Country Club than Riverdale is, and well-to-do -- those are both the case no matter whether the town or a village that lies within the town is intended. But the contributor seems focused on neighborhoods within Bronx County, and if they mean "Pelham" it's certainly worrisome, since village and town (while adjoining the Bronx) are each in Westchester County. It may be they imagine that as New York City is more often called "New York" all these suffixes on Pelham Gardens, Pelham Parkway, and Pelham Bay are insignificant, just nicknames or formalisms for "Pelham".
   • One might hope that they meant Pelham Bay, but that too is problematic: are they unaware that we (at least) describe Country Club as part of Pelham Bay? The failure to make clear whether they were comparing CC to P(B) as a whole or had found figures that were limited to just "the rest" of P(B) is not just a lack of verification, but a failure to even identify what the purported facts are about, apparently from being oblivious to the ambiguity.
3. The 'graph about the relationship between the neighborhood and PBPark
   • was only trivially marred by the use of "town" as if it had no hard and fast definition in the context of he article,
   • but the sorting out of the garble about being "located across Pelham Bay Park" (from what? or strewn across it?) would detract from my energy for rooting out further bad content.
     

   In the second section:

1. I restored another recklessly removed CitNeed.
2. I reverted to the editor's own previous "a couple of minutes" that they had replaced, after approx. 1 1/4 minutes of presumably intense cogitation, with "a minute"; i also tagged it Vague. For instance, if i have an engagement in Manhattan, i don't consider i've reached the Bruckner when i hit its nearest northbound on-ramp: more like after i've driven about a mile north, looped 270° (about a mile) around a cloverleaf, merged onto the Pelham Parkway for a few hundred feet, looped another 270° to merge back onto the Bruckner, southbound. And i probably don't really feel i'm on until i've made back the roughly a mile that i went northward on the Bruckner. A couple minutes, i guess -- if i could afford tires that'll hold the road at 80 m.p.h. on those cloverleafs.
3. "Most residents drive." is vague in two dimensions. If most means 60%, it dismisses a substantial minority. And driving in Manhattan ain no big thang if you've got the nerve, but when your employer isn't providing you free parking, the parking is hell. For shopping and other non-work activities, do these folks drive to the office garage anyway, and then hail cabs?
   

--Jerzy•t 22:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't get some of these citations;

Country Club contains a large Italian-American population. Country Club is bordered to the west by the Bruckner Expressway and the Throgs Neck Expressway.

How is that vague or ambiguous? When you're driving along the Bruckner Expressway, you're along the border of Country Club, and when you exit onto the Throgs Neck Expressway you're still driving along the border. Then there's this line;

As there is no alternate side parking regulation in this residential area, many residents drive, but Manhattan is easily accessible via the Middletown Road and Buhre Avenue subway stations on the 6 and <6>​ trains within a 10-minute walk from the park entrance.

How is accessibility to Manhattan "via" two stations along the IRT Pelham Line a "when" question? I didn't write any of this, but still, this doesn't make any sense. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 16:44, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

   Anyone with a sincere interest deserves, first, a reformatted version of Dan's contrib, which i offer here; the italicized material was copied by Dan, but without making it as accessible as the context calls for; i also have added the material in brackets, for clarity or ease of reference:

Dan wrote, at 16:44, 13 September 2014:

I'm sorry, but I don't get some of these citations;

[1]   On the passage "Country Club contains a large Italian-American population. Country Club is bordered to the west by the Bruckner Expressway and the Throgs Neck Expressway."

{{Vague}}, dated July 2013, and annotated "Too ambiguous to verify, or to be worth verifying"

   How is that vague or ambiguous? When you're driving along the Bruckner Expressway, you're along the border of Country Club, and when you exit onto the Throgs Neck Expressway you're still driving along the border.
[2]   Then there's this line;

As there is no alternate side parking regulation in this residential area, many residents drive, but Manhattan is easily accessible via

  [and here] {{when?}} [intervenes,] dated July 2013

the Middletown Road and Buhre Avenue subway stations on the 6 and <6>​ trains within a 10-minute walk from the park entrance.

   How is accessibility to Manhattan "via" two stations along the IRT Pelham Line a "when" question?

I didn't write any of this, but still, this doesn't make any sense.

[ Clarifying reformatting provided by...]
[--Jerzy•t 08:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)]

   As to 1, this diff will clarify for you that i placed a tag including that wording around 22:00, 29 July 2013, at the end of a sentence reading

Most of the town is a couple minutes away from the Bruckner Expressway and Throgs Neck Expressway.

so your concern is not relevant to my preceding comments.
   @DanTD: As to 2, perhaps my placement of the tag precisely on "via" misled you, and perhaps i should not have relied on the role of "when?" as an adverb to alert you that it was obviously modifying the predicate phase: At what times is it true that Manhattan is accessible via said stations (rather than only via stations, in other nbrhoods, that have stops later and/or earlier, or more often)? "Two Trains Running" is considered great accessibility in some locales, but not in many parts of NYC. As i also noted above, this ad for Country Club, Bronx real estate emphasizes accessibility to the BA, and to pass for a WP article, it must verify its claims.
--Jerzy•t 08:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Why does it matter how frequent the trains and buses run? That's a violation of WP:NOTTRAVEL and does not need to be included. FTR, the trains run 24/7 (see this source: "6 Subway Timetable, Effective August 12, 2023". Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Retrieved August 26, 2023.). Epicgenius (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

@DanTD: I may have messed it up when I was cleaning the article of unsourced materials. I left {{vague}} and {{when}}, when removing dated statements. Epicgenius (talk) 12:48, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@Jerzy: Some points to clarify: Pelham Bay is the ¨Pelham¨ being referred to, as it is across the bay from PBP. The Bruckner and Throgs Neck Expressways include the service roads. ¨Most¨ means the majority even in this case. Epicgenius (talk) 13:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

   @Epicgenius:

1. Re "Pelham", my outrage above on this page is fully justified by your reply. Not only is that source (IIRC provided by a firm with a profit-making interest in the topic) potentially confusing, it is likely to mislead readers, and i'm removing it if it's still there.
2. Re the Expressways' ramps, we're talking about the time to get into Midtown from Pelham Bay, and you're quibbling over 1 damn minute. Nuts.
3. Re "majority", congrats, you get back 1/4 point for knowing "most" doesn't have to mean 60%. "Most" and "the majority" are each a symptom

• of relying on hearsay where verifiability is required, and
• of lack of diligence to provide users what is guaranteed to be available if "most" is verifiable (and is probably 5 times as useful to users than "most" if we provide "about 60%", "...70%", "...80%", or "...90%").

--Jerzy•t 08:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

@Jerzy: I am only stating the facts, not what people believe. Such statements (like your statement about the expressways) are considered original research. If you have a source for your statements about the expressway beginning only at Pelham Pkwy, I will be happy to look at it. – Epicgenius (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

More than few years ago, User:Peterfitzgerald created maps of File:Queens neighborhoods map.png and File:Brooklyn neighborhoods map.png. Perhaps something should be considered for the Bronx to clear up the geographic discrepancies. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 12:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

@DanTD: Yes, perhaps. Epicgenius (talk) 14:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

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