Talk:Counter-Strike: Global Offensive/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

CS:GO has been completely replaced by CS2 in steam

We're finally gonna have to figure out what to do with this page, so I'm starting the discussion. @Ferret, dunno if it's worth move-protecting this for a bit. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Alyo Was about to make this post. About 5 minutes ago, Steam's store still showed CS:GO everywhere and it just updated to CS2 just this minute. So what we have here is a replacement rather than separate standalone game. -- ferret (talk) 20:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree. This is obviously anecdotal so far, but my playtime carried over and there's no option to load CS:GO. Alyo (chat·edits) 20:50, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I've pinged the project here. It's unclear how we need to handle this, as CS2 has replaced CS:GO (similar to OW1->OW2). For Dota and Dota Reborn, they were ultimately treated as the same game. For OW1 and OW2, OW2 was clearly intended to be a separate game that instead became an update. CS2 has always been worded by Valve as a "Update" to CS:GO, so... -- ferret (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps rename the article and write it up as a continuation? It is ultimately an update, albeit a major one. IceWelder [✉] 20:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

The changes were made against the main CSGO appid. See https://steamdb.info/changelist/20460242/ and https://steamdb.info/changelist/20460311 for reference. - pivotman319 (📫) 20:58, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I watched that change live. :) It really speaks to the fact this is an update and rename, rather than a whole new game. -- ferret (talk) 21:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pivotman319 I think "was" and past tense updates may be premature. Because what we will possibly see here is that the article is renamed and says "formerly known as CS:GO". -- ferret (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Fair, honestly. Should I consider requesting extended page protection on CS: GO given that this game's gone bust just now (and people might probably throw in vandalism on since CS2 is a popular subject), or? - pivotman319 (📫) 21:13, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

No, we protect in response to disruption, not preemptively. -- ferret (talk) 21:18, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I was notified of this discussion through Ferret and will reiterate what I stated earlier. Differences will ultimately amount to whether or not a separate article is necessary. There is a distinction being drawn between the games and the differences build to distinct games. PC Gamer has referred to Counter-Strike 2 as a replacement; such wording is used by GamesRadar+, Polygon, and The Verge. IGN and Rock Paper Shotgun are referring to Counter-Strike 2 as an update. In my opinion, I am of the belief that this is an update but that which is so substantial that it would warrant a separate article. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Until we can write a significant amount about CS2's development and reception, it makes to keep it on this page, and wait for more info to develop. In contrast OW2 had lots of dev info prior to its release and we know now it has a completely different reception, justifying the separate article. CS2 is lacking in this area right now. Masem (t) 21:23, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Dota 2 reborn was mostly changes updating the engine "behind the scenes" without fundamentally altering the player experience. Meanwhile Overwatch 2 reworked the business model, major gameplay mechanics, etc. So Dota being an update and OW being a sequel makes sense to me. CS2 appears to be somewhere in the middle. Like Dota it's "mostly" an engine update improving netcode and performance behind the scenes, but it also has potentially significant gameplay changes like the new smoke physics. Valve's marketing seems to be pushing this as a sequel/soft relaunch, but then the store page refers to it as "A free upgrade to CS:GO" so even their official description is somewhat ambiguous. I could see consensus going either way on this. Like others said above, this may come down to how reliable sources treat it. If a bunch of outlets review CS2 as a "new" game then sure, make a separate article for it. CurlyWi (talk) 21:28, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Valve has always referred to it as an upgrade, never a sequel. I'm not sure how you would gather that "Valve's marketing seems to be pushing this as a sequel/soft relaunch". IceWelder [✉] 21:35, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@IceWelder Because it's called "Counter Strike 2" and not "Counter Strike Global Offensive Reloaded" or whatever. I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret "2" to mean sequel but maybe that's just me. Ultimately it probably doesn't matter if sources refer to this as a sequel or an update for our purposes. If CS2 receives substantial coverage as a separate "entity" from CSGO then make a separate article. If it doesn't then just update the existing one. CurlyWi (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@CurlyWi Valve's official Counter-strike.net website says "Counter-Strike 2 arrives this summer as a free upgrade to CS:GO." and they've consistently referred to it as such. But yes in the end, it's about how the sourcing developes, which at the very least is going to need a couple days to settle, especially if we hope for any reviews. -- ferret (talk) 21:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ferret Yep, I understand that Valve referred to it as an "upgrade." My point was just that calling it CS2 muddies the water since people will be comparing it to Overwatch 2 and/or treating it as a sequel. Maybe I didn't articulate that well. It sounds like we're on the same page regarding the article though. CurlyWi (talk) 22:18, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

PCGamesN's coverage may satiate a separate article alone. I began work on creating a separate article but have held off on Ferret's advice. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 21:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

@ElijahPepe You could expand the CS2 section here in this article, highlighting the actual changes. That will help drive this discussion by gathering the sourcing together and giving a visible weight to whether a split is warranted. -- ferret (talk) 21:47, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I tried to create the CS2 article yesterday (which I still apologize for going against consensus) but even then I personally felt like it was still worth separating. I think that CS2 being worded as a clear replacement and successor that killed CS:GO (even if at it's core just an update) is still worth a split; cover 2012-2023 here and 2023- on an article for Counter-Strike 2. A split should be done in a few days as soon as reception comes up.

Side note, the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions of CS:GO still exist and are playable, so past tense treating CS:GO as non-existent should not be used here. NegativeMP1 22:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

A good point; this is also true for the old computer I took offline a few months ago that had CS:GO installed. But I'm not sure whether this, in and of itself, is enough. There's a case to be made that these are all simply older versions of the same program. I think a lot will will depend on what the release reviews look like, and how they frame the issue. Moonreach (talk) 22:13, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Makes no sense to not have CS2 be it's own page, it has different OS support (No Mac or console versions) and a lot of CSGO's content and extra features which take up substatial portions of this page (Danger Zone, Arms Race, etc). Doublah (talk) 14:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue is that all of that is a bit WP:CRYSTAL--we have no idea which content Valve is going to update for CS2 (although I do agree that it's unlikely we get an xbox version). Alyo (chat·edits) 15:21, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I do want to add that CS:GO remains likely in its entirety in the CS2 files, and there's still a CSGO demo viewer. It is very possible Valve continues to add maps and content from CS:GO over to CS2 (maybe less emphasis on maps since all important maps are already in, but that's besides the point). We could very well see Arms Race and Danger Zone in the future, since they added Wingman. An Xbox port is definitely unlikely though. NegativeMP1 17:35, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

CS2 should be its own article, as soon as there's enough material to justify the split. CS:GO has decades of history behind it as a flagship title for Valve and a major player in e-sports. CS2 will too, a few decades from now, but that doesn't "erase" the former, it builds on top of it (in a way typically reserved for sequels). ReneeWrites (talk) 19:38, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe we keep it to preserve the game’s memory? 2001:579:B94C:2:686A:4985:976B:B864 (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think the question of whether or not it's a distinct game hinges on how different it is from CS:GO. The main series games are arguably all remakes of each other, sharing levels, gameplay mechanics and weapons, and historically it's been worth making that distinction via separate articles. If CS2 really is just a drop-in replacement for CS:GO then that changes the calculus a bit, but it's still very early yet. My suggestion is to wait a week and see where things stand then. Moonreach (talk) 22:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

My intuition is that the update should be a separate page, while not calling it a sequel, as that would be factual inaccurate. We should update this page to say that its Steam version has been replaced by Counter-Strike 2, which belongs in parentheses directly next to CS:GO in the Counter-Strike navbox and in a subsection on the main franchise page. Though, I don’t know if we should list it in the franchise timeline - it may be too early to ascertain that. BOTTO _(T•C) 00:52, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Valve claims Counter-Strike 2 to be "the largest technical leap forward in Counter-Strike's history", so I think considering it part of the franchise makes sense and should probably be done. NegativeMP1 17:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Reception

I want to put some sources down that could possibly be used as reception. I expect full fledged reviews could come later on down the line, though.

• 1. PC Gamer - Full fledged day one review.
• 2. PCGamesN - Reception on the game on the Steam Deck.
• 3. TechRadar - Some reception towards the changes made.
• 4. Rock, Paper, Shotgun - Commentary of Counter-Strike 2's missing features and lack of Mac support.
• 5. PC Gamer - Some reception from Counter-Strike professionals.
• 6. VG247 - Probably doesn't mean anything but this says that CS2 topped Steam charts, can also be used to demonstrate a day one player count of 1,362,123.
• 7. PCGamesN - Servers were overloaded due to player counts in the opening days.
• 8. TechRadar - Full fledged review.
• 9. PCGamesN - About Steam reviews.
• 10. IGN - Missing features.
• 11. Hardcore Gamer - Not really reception but it still discusses some things, specifically that fans are divisive.
• 12. Jeuxvideo - Review.
• 13. Metacritic - For critic review scores.
• 14. Hardcore Gamer - Review.
• 15. Rock Paper Shotgun - Review.
• 16. Polygon - Review.

I expect more reception to come in the future, but this is what could be used now. NegativeMP1 22:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I think at this point we have reached the threshold of what should count for a Reception section, with more than enough to write about Gameplay. Some reviews like the Polygon one in particular claim it to be far more than simply an update. If this were your average game, it would already meet the threshold for a separate article, yet this one is being help up because it's "just an update" despite what is currently an overwhelming consensus to split. At the very least, @Moonreach I think you can expand the Counter-Strike 2 section with some of these reviews, of which there are six of them now. NegativeMP1 17:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Although I agree with your points, I'd prefer to hold off on adding reviews to the CS2 section until the move/split/stay discussion is formally closed. The reviews are strong evidence in favor of a split, but I think adding a review subsection to the CS2 section when there's already a separate section for the CS:GO reviews would be confusing. If the split fails, the CS2 reviews should be worked into the existing reviews section, although I think that will confuse readers and is good evidence for why a split is necessary. Moonreach (talk) 18:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

What I meant by that was something on the lines of "CS2 was met with mixed responses from fans" or "positive reviews from critics", not a whole reception section as I do agree with the Reception section warranting a split. NegativeMP1 18:16, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, if you want it done now, you could just go ahead and do it. I'm afraid I'm occupied with other stuff at the moment. Moonreach (talk) 18:26, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2023

"Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO) is a 2012 multiplayer tactical first-person shooter developed by Valve and Hidden Path Entertainment. "

This needs to be changed to

"Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (CS:GO) was a 2012 multiplayer tactical first-person shooter developed by Valve and Hidden Path Entertainment."

As the game is no longer accessible and has been fully replaced with Counter-Strike 2 in 2023 203.171.51.94 (talk) 08:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: It appears based on the article that the game is still playable, though in a very limited fashion. Tollens (talk) 11:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

you can play csgo on the ps3 also

in title 2A00:23C5:7A08:4501:3632:B4C2:CD0D:A805 (talk) 21:15, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. Alyo (chat·edits) 17:18, 27 December 2023 (UTC)