Talk:Cotton ceiling

This article was nominated for deletion on 27 December 2022. The result of the discussion was keep.

This page was proposed for deletion by Rab V (talk · contribs) on 24 December 2022 with the comment:
Does not pass WP:NOTABILITY. Sources used either are not reliable or do not even mention the phrase.
It was contested by Elmidae (talk · contribs) on 27 December 2022 with the comment:
deprod - plenty of presence on the net, as shown in provided sources, even if these aren't stellar. However, article needs serious cleanup and removal of a fair number of useless/unreliable sources

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Cotton ceiling article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

LGBT studies

This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles

Sexology and sexuality Low‑importance

	Human sexuality portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Do we need this?[edit]

It's cited enough to be notable, but does it need its own page? 2603:7081:B940:10:B896:631C:4EEE:CCAA (talk) 02:12, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Trash concept advocated by a

smattering of highly biased sources that seem to be advocating coercive rape. SinoDevonian (talk) 02:47, 7 March 2023 (UTC) SinoDevonian (talk) 02:47, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead neutrality[edit]

I have reverted LauraRichards1981's additions (e.g., [1]) because they are not sourced and not neutral, and appear to just be an addition of their own opinion on the article topic rather than a summary of reliable secondary sources. I am starting this section for discussion, per WP:BRD. DanCherek (talk) 14:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas claiming the "cotton ceiling" somehow marginalises trans women is neutral? Claiming they are the victims is neutral?

And what about "securing" women? That is acceptanle?

The cotton ceiling IS seen as a barrier by trans people who think they have the ultimate right to smash through it and as said above "advocating coercive rape"

But you consider saying trans people are marginalised by this to be neutral? Read this https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

watch this https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2019/11/9/what-is-the-cotton-ceiling

And then tell me claiming they are the poor "marginalised" victims is in any way neutral. It is full on bias. LauraRichards1981 (talk) 14:30, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are built upon reliable sources; the Medium article is self-published (see also WP:MEDIUM) and the second link (FiLiA) is a blog post. DanCherek (talk) 14:35, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So you agree that the poor transwomen are being marginalised and thwarted in their coercive rape.

Try this

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cotton%20Ceiling

or this

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cotton_ceiling

The cotton ceiling is a direct reference to coercive rape. It does NOT make trans women marginalised simply because lesbians who are same sex attracted do not wish to be sexual witht hem.

That is incredible bias. LauraRichards1981 (talk) 14:59, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you're not going to get very far without citing some reliable sources that support your proposed additions. Urban Dictionary, really? DanCherek (talk) 15:04, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting how you ignored wiktionary, isnt it? That was to be expected. WIll you deem that unreliable too? A sister of wikipedia.

In their definition, they do not claim the transgender people are marginalised by this. They do not condone coercive rape in that definition. You ignored it. Now will you tell me wiktionary is unreliable? LauraRichards1981 (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

O also regret to say that urban dictionary is fast becoming a far more reliable source than wikipedia these days. LauraRichards1981 (talk) 16:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@LauraRichards1981: Wiktionary is very definitely to be considered unreliable, as is Wikipedia itself; they are both self-published sources meaning anyone can edit them without peer review or fact-checking; this makes both of them ipso facto unreliable. Please do not use either one as a source for verifying content at Wikipedia; only reliable sources should be used for that purpose. Neither should you use Urban dictionary, which is also self-published and unreliable. Please have a look at WP:Verifiability policy and the guideline on reliable sourcing for more on this point. If you have doubts on whether something is a reliable source or not, you can ask a question at the Reliable sources noticeboard and experienced editors familiar with the topic will get back to you. Hope this helps. Mathglot (talk) 05:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with article in its current state[edit]

The concept of the “cotton ceiling” being a barrier to trans women accessing lesbian women as sexual partners is hate speech at best, on par with promoting the idea of “autogynephilia” in that it portrays trans women such as myself as sexual predators and perverts. I will be watching this article and quickly restore it against anyone else who tries to promote similar transphobic hate speech. Knitesmire (talk) 03:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Replied at your Talk page. Mathglot (talk) 05:37, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“Sexual spaces”[edit]

The wording here is very odd. Peoples sexual spaces are singular and unique to them, not part of some "shared resource". For example, healthcare is by many - myself included - seen as a "resource" that everyone should have access to aka access to health care spaces. I do not feel the same way concerning sex and relationships. SinoDevonian (talk) 15:21, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]