Talk:Contra dance/Archive 1

Main pages: Talk:Contra dance and Contra dance

Page move

(from WP:RM)

Contradance → Contra dance

• The more common name is "Contra dance"; it is suggested in the Talk page, and Contra dance is and has only ever been a redirect to Contradance. (It just had a typo, so it has 2 entries in it's history, so it can't be moved automatically.) JesseW 05:49, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • The term "contradance" seems to be more prevalent in the article than "contra dance". On the other hand, the Googletest is about 1:4 for "contra dance": 22,400 for "contradance"; 79,300 for "contra dance"-- ALoan (Talk) 15:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Objection. (Agree to Compromise below) The Oxford English Dictionary does not give priority to the form "contra dance" or most other two-word spelling variants. It only lists a two-word variant, contra danse or contra dance in common usage, but directs the reader to the compounded one-word form. The OED lists and gives priority to the compounded one-word form as a variant of the word contredanse, contredance, contradance or contradanse, and mentions archaic synonyms of country-dance, country dancing, and contra danse. Ironically, the two usages refering to "country" are derived from a corruption of the language, as the dance has nothing to do with anything remotely "country" being that its etymological origins are from the French word contre meaning "opposite." —ExplorerCDT 15:13, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• Agree. The on-line OED gives no two-word or closed-up forms at all (I'm not sure what edition ExplorerCDT is using). It gives only contre-dance, contre-danse, and contra-dance, in that order. Merriam-Webster, OTOH, gives contredanse (with French 's') as the standard form, with contra dance as a variant. It does not recognize a one-word spelling with an 'a' at all. Since contredanse is the preferred U.S. spelling and is the second-choice U.K. spelling, that seems best, but contra dance is certainly preferable to contradance which both U.K. and U.S. authorities consider incorrect. —Tkinias 00:38, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Using the 10-volume print edition of the OED from 1928, didn't bother comparing with the new 20-volume 3rd edition. I also didn't look for the hyphenated variants, which are listed as you have enumerated. —ExplorerCDT 19:23, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • This was based on the latest update at OED.com (and M-W.com for the U.S. spelling). The Web OED is handy because if your word (or spelling) is not a headword it will give you entries where the word/spelling appears. —Tkinias 21:53, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Compromise Proposal: How about we move it to "contredanse", and redirect the near a dozen alternate spellings to the contredanse spelling? —ExplorerCDT 18:07, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Agree to the compromise proposal. —ExplorerCDT 20:49, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Agree. Since this is #1 U.S. and #2 U.K. it seems the best compromise. —Tkinias 18:51, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Agree. I had only ever heard of "contra dance"; I had no idea there were that many varying spellings. JesseW 22:43, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Hrm.... well, contredanse is about something different than contradance.... - UtherSRG 03:10, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Actually, they're all the same thing. Just the articles aren't consistent in content. —ExplorerCDT 17:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes, OED and M-W both consider them synonymous. —Tkinias 02:17, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
    • Well, once the bits from contredanse are merged into contradance, I'll delete it, do the move, and do an undelete to keep the history. Just gimme a holler when it's ready. - UtherSRG 05:10, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
      • Uther, can I suggest not merging the histories? The histories overlap chronologically, and since there's not much to the history currently at contredanse perhaps a note on the talk page pointing there is better. —Tkinias 21:24, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
        • I believe you just did. *grins* Yeah, I agree. Is it ready for the move? - UtherSRG 22:00, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
          • Articles merged; I think I got the internal references standardized on contredanse. The article needs cleanup by someone who knows the subject; I know fsck-all about dancing so I can't really help there. —Tkinias 23:49, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh my holy sh*t goodness, this is the silliest thing! "Contredanse?" Somebody is smoking crack! Who ever went to a contredanse? It's an American folk dance, silly! I go to the contra dance every week, and have traveled all over the US going to dances in other cities, but I've never seen this spelling. --Defenestrate 17:22, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

While I won't accuse anyone of smoking crack, it certainly is questionable to file this page under the heading "Contredanse". The OED notwithstanding, most people in North America who regularly contra dance would not recognize the word "contredanse" as applying to their activity. Contredanse is an archaic form of the word(s) that actual people actually use. Let's get it right in the Wikipedia; it's: contra dance. Then the OED can straighten itself out - using Wikipedia's "Contra Dance" page as the definitive source.
--Contrazz 07:04, 16 June 2005 (UTC)

I've been contra dancing for 15 years in 19 states and Canada. I've never encountered "contredanse". Actual usuage in the contra dance community should be the standard, not whatever the OED says.
--Conductorchris 23:48, 27 June 2005 (UTC)

_ _ The bizarre result of settling on Contredanse is simply typical WP neglect that has not yet been corrected:

1. Facing a choice between concatenating the two words or separating them by a space (a difference many people will not notice, and a difference between people that in many cases probably persists for generations before the combination becomes so familiar as to be universally thought of as a single word), the 3.5:1 Google preference should have been sufficient to settle on "contra dance". But someone switched the discussion, misusing dictionaries. The OED's commercial raison d'etre is being the authority on early usage of words; it may or not have blinders on because of that. (I fancy, but don't know, that it at least gives American usage weight equal to, if not greater than, UK, which is an issue here.) It also may say something like the messages, recently ignored on this page with the effect of misusing completely the Merriam Webster: (from p. 11a of my (8th) New Collegiate, halfway thru "Entries" within "Explanatory Notes")

When a main entry is followed by the word or and another spelling, the two spellings are equal variants. Both are standard, and either one may be used according to personal inclination

the·ater or the·atre

If two variants joined by or are out of alphabetical order, they remain equal variants. The one printed first is, however, slightly more common than the second.:

coun·sel·or or coun·sel·lor

2. No one bothered citing the Google test (a lk that, BTW, may be of some interest here, in contrast to the Googletest one above) on the "compromise" choice: 3400 hits (of which 55% of the first thousand are too similar to be presented) vs. (presently) 75,100 for "contra dance" (with an omission rate, BTW, of only 22%, not 55). So in this case it's not a 3.5:1 ratio, but 22:1 including the omitted hits and 38:1 if counting only non-omitted ones.

3. Desk-top dictionaries are valuable, but not exhaustive. I don't have a current unabrdged at hand, but it is of some interest that a 1957 M-W 2nd International has only "contredanse", which it marks as a foreign word (in contrast to naïf which is apparently fully assimilated into English).

For me, the obvious conclusion is that "Contredanse" is, in English, a scholarly term for the international history that includes Beethoven and Mozart works or movements named or described with the word "Kontratanz", and perhaps actual danced dances; as such it would be more visible to the scholars who prepare dictionaries than the usage of live dancers. And of 1957, as fairly regional popular or folk culture in the US, the "contra dance" was surely already well established (even before the American folk revival), but apparently off the radar of the dictionary makers, who have yet to really catch up.
_ _ (Evidence from Ralph Page:

On December 6, 1930, Ralph started calling contras, almost by accident. He was playing fiddle in an orchestra when he had to substitute for a caller who had come down with laryngitis. That day was December 5, 1930. From that beginning, he rose to the top of his field as an Eastern contra caller, becoming one of the country's first full-time professional callers in 1938, known as the "Singing Caller of New England."

and (apparently referring to the 1940s; truncation & ellipsis by Jerzy)

He wrote to Michael Herman, "I think that most of the International dances are grand and the tunes and figures delightful, but because of my background I specialize in the American dance and keep the others as a sideline. ..."

(which contradicts any suggestion that the term or practice came from France since 1957).
_ _ What appears to be the definitive site on Playford's definitive 1650s The Dancing Master is The Dancing Master, 1651-1728: An Illustrated Compendium / By Robert M. Keller. The Dancing Master itself never uses either "contra" or "contre", but Keller in his source notes three times uses the notation "[Contra-corners in reverse]" to describe a dance figure in terms of a much better known one.
_ _ That site lies within izaak.unh.edu (at the University of New Hampshire; the state of NH is regarded in the northeast US as the wellspring of contradancing or "New England country dancing"). Googling

site:izaak.unh.edu contra OR contre OR contradance OR contredance

produces 49 hits, one of them referring to "Iran-Contra". (The by far least obviously dance-related Google excerpt among the remaining 48 reads

University of New Hampshire - Milne Special Collections and ...

Jean Matthews, Phil. 50th Spring Festival, 5-1-1965, Hunter College 312. Gay. 313. Contra. ... 542. Contra - Mireille, Norman. 543. Jean Ritchie, John Dunn. ...

and identifies the photos in the collection as having belonged to a specific member and employee of "CDSS", obviously the Country Dance and Song Society [1].)
_ _ One of those hits includes "contre" or "contredance"; it is among 5 hits in the Google search on the whole of unh.edu (rather than restricted to izaak.unh.edu):

site:unh.edu contre OR contredance

Three of those use "contre" in French phrases discussing technological subjects.
_ _ The other two have Google excerpts

[CONTRE-DANSE FRANCAISE.] Illustration, explanation, and music for figures of 4 French contra dances. Photocopy of French text. Cook, Robert Lee. ...

and

Le Contre-danse. engraving. A couple dances, accompanied by two violin players. There is a tambourine (JJ/B) on the ground in the left foreground. ...

Obviously they both support Contre-danse only as a French term, probably for dances like those known in North America as "contras". The first supports "contra dance" as the English translation of that French term.
_ _ The only consideration the "compromise" of 2004 December deserves is a brief delay in correcting this dreadful mistake, in case its advocates intend to start marshalling meaningful evidence that the dancing style is called "contredance" in English, as opposed to non-English titles of classical musical works somehow related to dances but not intended for actual dancing. If that occurs, we would also need to sort out whether any scholarly usages (which may be dominated by other-language terms conforming to an international scholarly terminology) deserve more than brief mention, in light of the likelihood that most contra dancers have met more people who spell it "contra" than the number of living contra-dance scholars who don't.
--Jerzy·t 21:00, 2005 August 16 (UTC)

• Agree. I was thoroughly bewildered when contra dance was repeatedly spelled "contredanse" in the text, and then I notice that I'd been redirected. I've been contra dancing since before I learned to read and have never seen this spelling applied to this kind of dance. --Eitch 21:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The case for "contra dance" as the main title seems overwhelming. Being as the change has not been made, though, I will add to that case by submitting that the three collections of contra dances that I own all use the spelling "contra dance". They are: Zesty Contras by Larry Jennings (1983); Midwest Folklore compiled and edied by Michael Fuerst (1995); Twirling Dervish Returns by Becky Hill, Paul Balliet, and Carol Kopp. These publications span 14 years and effectively the entire northeast quadrant of the United States, and contain works by the most widely regarded dance authors of our day. The consensus in the world of this living tradition seems clear, but the Wikipedia is stuck. How do we unstick it? Davidreedernst 01:18, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Unless there is significant objection, I would like to propose we go ahead and move this article once again. My sense from reading the discussion above is that contredanse makes sense to only a few people, while most people seem to feel Contradance or Contra dance would be more sensible. Therefore I propose moving it to Contra dance, and cleaning up the text to match. The current name is clearly causing frustration and confusion. Also for what it’s worth, Microsoft Word prefers Contra Dance as well. --Ahc 19:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Contredanse → Contra dance

• Support. The primary focus of this article appears to be the (modern American) contra dance, not the (historical French) contredanse. (Also, note multiple comments above, with documentation, claiming that this page is misnamed.) MJSS 23:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Result

Moved from Contredance. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 01:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Artifacts of the result

Just noticed that now if you are, as we suggest you might be, looking for the "form of classical music 'contredanse'" you´re out of luck -- there´s just a looping redirect. Seems like the people involved in this discussion know (or have learned in order to make an argument here) quite a bit about contredanse. So you know -- feel encouraged to write it up. Eitch 15:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)