Talk:Chicken Kiev/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Took out the claim that the "Chicken Kiev Speech" was drafted by Condi Rice, seeing as she left the White House several months before it was delivered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.211.119.191 (talk) 13:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the Ukrainians in Kiev would be awfully surprised to read this article the way it was. --Mothperson 23:51, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not only that, but the first two paragraphs contradict each other:
  • "Chicken Kiev is a classic Ukrainian dish..."
  • "This famous method of preparing chicken or pheasant is not of Ukrainian origin..."
Which is the proper fact? Zarggg 03:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Mothperson, I know nothing about this, any idea why the article writer thought it was invented in New York? -- Kevin Saff 15:18, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, but maybe it was the same person who thought the Linzertorte was invented by Josef Linzer, or the person who put Chic (sic) Corea on the eponyms list as the inspiration for Chic-Fil-ay. Somehow, I don't want to know. -- Mothperson 16:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ha, that's funny, thanks. :) -- Kevin Saff 16:25, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • FWIW - I previously understood Chicken Kiev to have originated in a famous hotel in Kyiv in 19th century. --Yakym 07:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Auguste Escoffier describes no such dish in his fundamental Le Guide Culinaire. Therefore, until documentary evidence to the contrary surfaces, it can be safely assumed that it was not known to French cooks back then (in 1902). So the Appert version is false. 88.155.11.171 21:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What Appert describes looks very much like Chicken Po Pojarski, which is in the Volaille recipes in Escoiffier. Le Cordon Bleu connects the two in some of their more complete (ie, big and expensive) guides, surmising that Kiev is an "imported" version of Pojarski. Although without proper evidence of the use of the name you might very well say M & S invented the dish, as all the others are basically just chicken cutlets, sometimes in breadcrumbs. The idea of embedding a lump of flavoured butter isn't in the examples given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.124.250 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Côtelettes de volaille is just French for chicken breasts, and when the breasts have the wings attached, they are called suprêmes. These are just the names of the cuts of fowl, and they can be cooked in many different ways, according to the Larousse Gastronomique. I don't think either of these terms is synonymous with Chicken Kiev. —Michael Z. 2007-10-16 04:58 Z 04:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

fr:Filet (mets) : Côtelettes de volaille & Côtelettes suprêmesXb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 08:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Commerical uses

This section seems to be referring to breaded chicken patties in general, and not the butter-filled breaded chicken that the article describes as being real Chicken Kiev. If someone else is more familiar with this recipe, and knows if the butter filling is the defining characteristic or if it's just typical but not necessary, then they should either note this or remove that section. --Icarus 22:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I know htat for it to be Chicken Kiev it requires the butter, but after that diffrent regions and generations will add in minor spices and greens. I've never heards this to be called chicken supreme though.Dryzen 12:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Why unsalted butter?

It could be iteresting to know why the butter has to be unsalted when, according to many recipes on chicken Kiev (which also seem to prefer unsalted butter), the butter is going to be seasoned with salt later anyway. --Kri (talk) 15:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Salted butter was - and still is - held in very low regard pretty much everywhere outside of the United States and rarely used even in the cheapest dishes. Putting it into a very expensive dish (chicken was more expensive than veal in the first half of the 20th century) was out of the question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.111.59 (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Origin

In fact Pokhlebkin mentioned three versions of origin of CK. Two Russian ones, and one Ukrainian. Thus he didn't totally support the "Russian" version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.70.155.206 (talk) 17:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This is just a speculation but Kibbeh is very similar in structure. AverageTurkishJoe (talk) 00:28, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Request to improve photo

The photo here is rather dark and could be improved by using one which shows the interior of the item. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Find Original sources

"developed by Nicolas Appert (1749-1841)"..."named it Suprême"..."NYC restaurant named it Kiev to attract Russian immigrants"
"Novomikhailovsky Cutlet...invented...in...Merchants' Club, St Petersburg" - Vilyam Pokhlebkin

Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 09:57, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Concerning the history of Chicken Kiev in the US: Here, articles in US newspapers (Dallas Morning News, 25 February 1938, and Chicago Daily Tribune, 16 March 1939 and 6 October 1939) are cited which mention Russian restaurant Yar in Chicago which had served Chicken Kiev since 10 years. So most probably, Chicken Kiev was brought by Russian immigrants to the US in the 1920s or 30s.
Concerning the history in Russia/Ukraine: Pokhlyobkin (currently mentioned in the article Chicken_Kiev#cite_note-1) claimed in this reference that the name Kiev was given to this dish in 1947 by a Soviet restaurant. This cannot be true, as the name obviously existed in the US already in the 1930s. On the other hand, it is very improbable that the name was brought from the US to the USSR in the 1940th, since at that time the Iron Curtain was impenetrable. So the most plausible version is that the name was not given but revived in this Soviet restaurant in 1947 and has spread since then in the USSR. The name must have already existed at the time of Russian revolution or Civil War, which was also the time of mass emigration from Russia to the West. After 1924 or so there was virtually no way to escape Russia anymore. The chef in Kiev which cooked it in 1947 probably knew it from former times. Here are some Ukrainian sources:
  • Here it is claimed that the recipe was created by "the famous Kiev chef Raskalupa 100 years ago".
  • Here, it is witnessed by Vladimir Smirnov, chef in 4th generation who worked for Kiev restaurants Dnepr, Stolichnyi, and Moscow: "My grandfather Pyotr Tarasovich Nerodenko, who was the chef in hotel Europe before the WWII, and then the chef in restaurant Ukraine, said, that the "Cotelette de volaille a la Kiev" was made before the revolution. The Continental hotel in Kiev where my grandfather started his training in cooking in 1915 is considered the birthplace of the original recipe." Continental was one of the noble hotels in Kiev located in the building now occupied by the Kiev Conservatory.
Finally, the main Soviet source providing the recipe for the dish is Kulinariya, the reference book of Soviet cookery issued by the Soviet Ministry of Food Industry in 1955, Section 1145.

--Off-shell (talk) 22:35, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

In French cuisine one finds for cotelettes de volaille e.g. these recipes: Cotelettes De Volaille A La Du Barry and Cotelettes De Volaille A La Montglas, mentioned in The-Post-Graduate-Cookery-Book by Adolphe Meyer, 1903, The Caterer Pub. Co. See here or here. However, they use forcemeat and no butter.

--Off-shell (talk) 23:16, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Request help fixing red errors for referencing

Could someone please adjust the {{sfn}} templates in this article to remove the big red errors in the References section? It looks like the same author/year/page combination is used with multiple |ps= parameters. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

This appeared after a change in Wiki software which changed the functionality of the sfn template, thus contradicting its documentation. I asked for help and here is the discussion on village pump. The only solution is to replace sfn with usual "ref" statements. Unfortunately, I had no time since then to fix it. I hope I find some time soon. I'm also going to expand the article further. --Off-shell (talk) 21:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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