Talk:Byronic hero/Archive 1

Pardon my snobbery, but

Shrek? Seriously? How on earth is he a Byronic hero? Deerlike (talk) 08:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

No, no, I like the bullet points

I like them. It really helped me when I was in class the other day to be able to reference a bulleted list, and we even talked about it during class. Even if you put them in a paragraph, consider leaving the list at least in the discussion notes. Thx 149.169.143.137 (talk) 22:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe this article has been vandalized? and other random stuff in this discussion

how do these have anything to do with a byronic hero? from the article: how do these have anything to do with a byronic hero? homosexual side to his mind? extreme sense of not using money?

shut up..yes it is a byronic hero!!!!!!!!!

Why is their a "__________" near the end of the page? 151.200.14.185 17:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Several deletions: Milton does not in the least think Satan's complaint God is justified, so the connection is unwarranted. Furthermore, Willoughby, not being by any stretch of the imagination a hero (indeed, he's too inept and psychologically undveloped to even be called much of a villain), cannot be Byronic hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.125.54.31 (talk) 02:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Dr Who

Dr Who Byronic? Surely not...Opinions please...Colin4C 09:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that there have been at least 10 doctors of varying personalities... - Jc37 02:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If any Doctor makes sense as Byronic, it's the Ninth. Eccleston's Doctor had just come out of ending a war by performing genocide against both his race and the enemy. He was an outcast in that he was the only one of his kind left. Tennant's done a good job with this, as well. He also adds the whole "My God, Rose is gone forever" aspect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.102.228.96 (talk) 06:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Expanding the article

In my opinion, this article isn't as big as I would like it to be. It really isn't in an article format, and doesn't contain that much information. The article was made over two years ago, and has been edited many times since, but many of those have been additions of small details here and there. I personally will try to help contribute to the article (although I'm not much of a literary person) so that we can make this article bigger in size and encompass more information regarding the Byronic hero.

Maybe we could have a section on the Byronic hero in literature and examples of Byronic heros in works of other authors. Also, we could have a section devoted regarding the first Byronic hero in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage. If we could also get rid of the bulletpoints, and state them in paragraph form (with a bit of elaboration), that would be really be of great help.

--Nishkid64 21:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shrinking the article

Let's just put "emo with a cause". Seriously, Nishkid64's proposal is a good one, if someone's got the knowledge.

Added...

I added Master Yehudi from Paul Auster's "Mr. Vertigo" to the paragraph about modern Byronic heroes because I thaught that he serves as a perfect example for the subject (those who read the book will surely agree that every characteristic listed in the article is him). Please note that I'm not a native english speaker, so I may have some grammer errors. 89.138.99.97 (talk) 03:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Sherlock Holmes

He is without a doubt a Byronic hero and should be mentioned. He has basically every trait in this list quite strongly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.8.22 (talk) 05:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Holmes only has about 1 of every 5 traits listed for a Byronic hero. Regardless, neither your nor my opinion matters - what matters is if you can find a reliable source that says Holmes is a Byronic hero. Edward321 (talk) 14:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Well I read a review describing the Holmes in the new show "Sherlock" as Byronic if that counts. Anyway, here is a list of traits that are byronic in him.

   * a strong sense of arrogance
   * high level of intelligence and perception
   * cunning and able to adapt
   * sophisticated and educated
   * self-critical and introspective
   * mysterious, magnetic and charismatic
   * social and sexual (not  this one) dominance
   * emotional conflicts, bipolar tendencies, or moodiness[citation needed]
   * a distaste for social institutions and norms
   * being an exile, an outcast, or an outlaw
   * "dark" attributes not normally associated with a hero[citation needed]
   * disrespect of rank and privilege
   * self-destructive behaviour  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.8.22 (talk) 15:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC) 

Many of those are true for the most recent portrayal of Holmes. OTOH, the original version does not have most of them. Regardless, with a reliable source identifying Holmes as a Byronic hero, that is original research and would be deleted. A local school paper or some guy's blog are not reliable sources. A nationally known reviewer, the director, screenwriter, or actor saying the same thing would count as a reliable source. Edward321 (talk) 23:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Well I will notify you if I find an agreeable source. Nonetheless, I was reffering to his original incarnation with the traits above. Holmes has strongly demonstrated all of these. He is very logical and intelligent, and seems to have had an excellent education. He is arrogant and critical towards the police such as when an officer failed to pay attention to the red-faced man in A Study in Scarlet, yet also scolds his own mistakes, such as when he made a bad move with following the cab in The Hound of the Baskervilles. He is quite charismatic and was described in a sign of four as an excellent party host, yet also spends a lot of time in deep thought, knows things that astound people and dissapears without trace (The man with the twisted lip). He seems quite bipolar, getting rampantly excited with mysteries and such, propelled into nonstop action without rest for days, but will sometimes spend days in silent recluse. He has been known on several occasions to break laws and rules to get the crime solved (for example, he broke into a house to steal some convicting evidence in one story, I forget). He obviously has little respect for ranks and privelage, after all, he puts down high level police officers and has no qualifications of his own. Self destructive behaviour: Well the drugs and not sleeping of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.8.22 (talk) 08:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Is this a good enough source? It's a proper review from a magazine site (I think) and it says that he plays a byronic character by drawing on the character in the original books rather than doing a loose adaption. http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/Event?oid= Also this one, though I'm less sure about how notable the creator is. http://www.flickfilosopher.com/blog/2009/12/122309sherlock_holmes_review.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.206.8.22 (talk) 13:22, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The first link is blank. The second may be a reliable enough source, several other articles seem to cite them. I'll restore the line and add proper citation in the near future.

So, this was several months ago. How about adding him with the proper citation?

Edward321 (talk) 15:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Dorian Gray, Byronic Hero?

Dorian Gray is not a hero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.172.75 (talk) 17:39, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Eccentricity

Should eccentricity and introversion be included in the list of the Byronic hero's characterisics? It does sound reasonable to me, but will anyone suggest a source? Frater Liberabit (talk) 03:27, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

"The Byronic hero is a variant of the Romantic hero"

Other than the above, it is not at all clear from the article what a Byronic hero is or how one differs from a classic Romantic hero. 68.111.92.12 (talk) 20:24, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Categories

Glad to see someone deleted the characteristics list finally. It was original research and muddied the page. I even saw it form the basis of half an article on loners in the Guardian review a few months ago where it was used by a journalist who simultaneously rubbished Wikipedia for including it whilst lazily lifting it for the article. Anyway, here is the culled list for archival purposes: −

− The Byronic hero typically exhibits several of the following traits:

• Arrogant
• Cunning and able to adapt
• Cynical
• Disrespectful of rank and privilege
• Emotionally conflicted, bipolar, or moody
• Having a distaste for social institutions and norms
• Having a troubled past or suffering from an unnamed crime
• Intelligent and perceptive
• Jaded, world-weary
• Mysterious, magnetic, and charismatic
• Rebellious
• Seductive and sexually attractive
• Self-critical and introspective
• Self-destructive
• Socially and sexually dominant
• Sophisticated and educated
• Struggling with integrity
• Treated as an exile, outcast, or outlaw

Silverwood (talk) 18:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I realize the purpose of deleting this list (since its non specific to any particular character). However if you read the article as it stands, there is no good definition of what a Byronic Hero is. The Intro paragraph states "Although there are a range of traits and characteristics that exemplify the type, both Byron's own persona as well as characters from his writings are considered to provide defining features." yet at no point is there any discussion of what those features are. Childe and Conrad are mentioned, but not much depth is given into the analysis of these characters. Perhaps those more familiar with Byron's work could write a more explanatory summary of the other types of Byronic heroes that were portrayed in Byron's work. [comment by 24.101.124.142]

Actually, for all its faults the list did give a reasonable account of the things that are likely to be meant by the term. There are at least two very different types of hero in Byron's works (which, lets face it it, long ago slipped from popular reading except for academic purposes), and also most people probably think (if they give the matter any thought at all) that the term refers to Byron's own personality rather than those of his literary creations, and they may well be right. The two types might be crudely summarized as the ruthless exotic bandit (mostly the early works) and the superior introspective intellectual. Byron clearly identified himself with both, and to some extent managed the considerable feat of combining both in his own life. Perhaps we could reinstate it (slightly de-Californicated), citing the Grauniad? That would serve them right. Johnbod (talk) 17:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Origins

I was looking to add the following to the end of the first paragraph on "origins," what do you all think?

Ann Radcliffe’s “unrepentant” Gothic villains (beginning in 1789 with the publication of The Castles of Athlin and Dunbayne, a Highland Story) also foreshadow a moody, egotistical Byronic “villain” nascent in Byron’s own juvenilia, some of which looks back to Byron’s Gordon relations, Highland aristocrats or Jacobites now lost between two worlds. For example, in Byron’s early poem “When I Roved a Young Highlander” (1808), with its Wordsworthian tone, we see a reflection of Byron’s youthful Scottish connection, but also find these lines:

As the last of my race, I must wither alone, And delight but in days, I have witness’d before:

These lines echo Wordsworth’s treatment of James MacPherson’s Ossian in “Glen-Almain” (1807):

That Ossian, last of all his race! Lies buried in this lonely place.

Thus Byron’s poem seems to show that a brooding, melancholy influence not only from Wordsworth but also from MacPherson was very much on his mind at an early date. FXONeill (talk) 13:44, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

References