Talk:Bruce Lee/Archive 5

Ancestry of Bruce Lee`s mother

So, the single-purpose account is of the strong and unfaltering opinion that Lee's mother was not of as much German ancestry as she was Chinese, so that she was, in his words, only of "partly German" ancestry. Normally, I try to overlook these nationalistic biases, but since the single-purpose account appears to be so intent on proving the Chineseness about everything connected with Bruce, I believe it is in the best of Wikipedia's enlightened tradition to look into the matter further, so that the single-purpose account gets his mental peace and work on the article can finally move on. So, does anyone know from reliable sources whether her mother or her father was German? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:22, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

According to Thomas and another source, her father was German.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

In a prior disucssion, the only reliable sources regarding Lee's mother's parents that were provided were the following:

• Lee, Linda (1989), The Bruce Lee Story, United States: Ohara Publications, p. 20, ISBN 0897501217
• Thomas, Bruce (1994), Bruce Lee: Fighting Spirit : a Biography, Berkeley, California: Frog, Ltd., p. 3, ISBN 1-883319-25-0

The first source, written by Bruce's wife, states that Grace was half German [1]. The second source is more specific and states that Grace's father was German [2] (but this statement is not footnoted in the text and so I could not follow-up further). —Myasuda (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I just found out that Bruce Lee's partial German heritage is indeed highly relevant to his life, since discrimination by fellow Chinese pupils even forced him to leave a martial arts school at a young age (on a personal note: this enlightened attitude might have even stopped him altogether from becoming what he later was, don't you think?). Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Why were they removed? Although I agree that a footnote would be even better, the Thomas Bruce biography is cited below in the article as a main reference, so, unless information surfaces to the contrary, we should not hesitate to add that specific information on his ancestry in the article. I find it noteworthy, too, that she was a Catholic, her belief would have made certainly an impact on Bruce, too. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:02, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

This issue has already been settled and closed by Huo Xin, Misortie and Padillah.

It seems that you always like to start a dispute to ruining this article.

Please look back in the history before you start an edit or dispute, and try to keep this article tidy and truthful. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:20, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

The criteria of Wikipedia is WP:Verifiability, and the material I added fulfilled that criteria. You have now for weeks constantly obstruct any progress on the article and your reverts are nothing less, but plain and open edit wars. I requested action against you taken, you single-purpose editor. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

"Requested action against me"?

You intent on ruining the article.

You can't even be bothered and avoided to look back in the history of this talk page. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:45, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

You cannot even indent your remarks, although many users have asked you to do this and although this is as difficult as chewing gum, while walking. I don't know why we waste here our time with an single-purpose account who calls other repeatedly racist, and does nothing but obstructing and war-editing one of the most visited articles in the Wikipedia. Either you play here by the rules, like everybody else, or you are soon history. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

• • This is what we know: Bruce's mother was Catholic, Bruce attended Catholic school and was introduced to Western Boxing by the Jesuits. Bruce's mother was definitely part German. According to Lee's widow: Linda Lee-Cadwell, Bruce's mother was "half German". According to biographer, Bruce Thomas: Lee's mother was half-German and he specifically says it was her father who was German. Bruce's fellow Wing Chun students did in fact hold his 1/4 Germanic heritage against him.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

So why don't you add the information to the article? Is Undefeatedcooler a more reliable source on Bruce Lee's ancestors than Bruce Lee's wife (!!!) herself? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

What I'm waiting for is UDC to bring forth a credible source that refutes any of this. If he brings forth a source that refutes any or all of this, we weigh it and come to consensus. If not, then I will know who is a serious editor and who is a time-waster.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:49, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I don t know if it s interesting for you, but i am german and was always very interested about Lee s german ancestry. In 2002, Bruces younger brother Robert Lee (musician) visited the "Divine Wind" Forum (www.bruceleedivinewind.com / the forum is closed since 2005) and any user could ask him a question, which he responded. I did ask him, and he said: "My mother s father was a german", so it should be a grandfather. I tried to ask Robert if he can give any more informations about him (where he came from, how is name was etc.), but he didn t reply to it. Best regards, CB 1:16, 15 March 2010 (CET). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.225.61 (talk)

I wasn’t the only person who claimed "Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German".

Huo Xin (talk) also recognized Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German. In the previous discussion, Huo Xin said: “All of this arguing is silly and moronic. It was Bruce Lee's grandmother who was half Chinese and half German. If you wish to verify this you can contact his brother, Robert Lee as well as other family members who are alive today. His mother was only a quarter German, thus Bruce Lee was only an 1/8 German.”

The reason we knew that Grace Ho’s father wasn’t German, because Grace Ho was the daughter of the prominent businessman Ho Kom Tong. That’s why her surname was “Ho” (a Chinese surname). They were widely recognized in the Hong Kong communities.

In the previous discussion, I asserted by a relevant source. Somebody concerns about the reliability, I explained: “I just readily found the article from the internet, if you simply type (Grace Ho, Ho Kom Tong) on the internet, there were tons of relevant articles about it.

Please do some research first, rather than just reading a typo in Bruce Thomas’s book. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Huo Xin seems to be indeed the type of person a single-pupose account like you would quote. I will add now the referenced material provided and supportted by Myasuda, Mike and me. Note that one of the references is from Lee's wife herself. If you remove that again, I will report you as edit-warring quicker than Bruce Lee's fist. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You have no right to criticise and report us, Huo Xin (talk) surely wasn't a single-pupose account, you racist editor.

The reference from Lee's wife did not stated that Grace Ho's father was German.

If you make an obstinate edit again. I will report you as edit-warring before you did. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, we have at least 2 sources stating that Bruce's mother was half-German. One in fact stating that his maternal grandfather was German. Please bring forth a print source refuting this. Since you are contesting the material, the burden of proof is upon you. Telling other editors to look for it is not the proper way to dispute it. Thanks.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• The book Words of the dragon: interviews 1958-1973 in the Bruce Lee Library states that Bruce Lees Mother was 1/4 German. [3] Not 1/2 like the others apparently.Peppermint Chills —Preceding undated comment added 14:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC).
  • OK, that is a good start. However from the limited preview of the book, I cannot tell who is making the claim, etc. Does anyone have an actual copy of this book so we can tell what the context is? For example, is it coming from Bruce Lee, himself, is it a footnote made by the author?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Not sure if this is a good start. With Lee's wife statement in her biography on Bruce we have the ultimate source. Only a thorough scholarly discussion which provides extensive details and refeences could hope to top that. Otherwise I cannot see any way past his wife's own statement. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I just got a full preview of the book. It actually reprints a 1966 story about Bruce Lee from a magazine called TV Picture Life, stating his mother was "1/4 British" and the book's editor, Little, corrects this in a footnote by saying "she was actually 1/4 German". That is not enough to refute 2 independent tertiary sources, one of which written by Lee's widow stating that Lee's mother was half-German. However, it is a step in the right direction.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:32, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• It appear to me notes make by the author. That part of the book is set up to present articles from newspapers and interviews. So the author cleans up confusion by adding footnotes to a sentence that needs more information or to correct an factual error. And example can be found.
  • • • The newspaper or interview = [4]
      • his note = [5]
• The only problem now is that the limited preview prevents you to find the footnote placed for his mother's ancestry.I really dont think it matters anyway But as a with the fact presented as a footnote [6], the author seems to be confident to state 1/4 German.Peppermint Chills 14:41, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ has a point. I guess we need another source then.Peppermint Chills 14:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Blackbelt editors state 1/4 german. [7]Peppermint Chills 14:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Comment: Bruce the source says is 1/4 fourth German, that is his mother was half-German. What are we waiting for btw? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Mito, the author of that piece in Black Belt, is a good source. Let me do some more fact-checking, I think this is a good step toward compromise.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:06, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

You see, even the Blackbelt editors stated that she was "three-fourths chinese and one- fourth german". Undefeatedcooler (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Not as reliable and an extremely limited view "Everybody was Kung Fu fighting: Afro-Asian connections and the myth of.." State 1/4 German[8]Peppermint Chills 15:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, an Admin haslocked the article due to edit-warring for one week. I suggest everyone use that time to bring forth their reliable sources and bring concerns here to the talk page where we can hammer it out. Use this time constructively and we'll be able to produce a better article, or don't and we'll be mired down in this senseless bickering and the article will get locked again.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

More book support for Grace being half German:

• Campbell, Sid; Lee, Greglon (2006), Remembering the Master: Bruce Lee, James Yimm Lee, and the Creation of Jeet Kune Do, United States: Blue Snake Books, p. 169, ISBN 1583941487 (see [9])
• Clouse, Robert (1988), Bruce Lee: The Biography, United States: Unique Publications, p. 9, ISBN 0865681333 (search inside [10])
• Thomas, Bruce (2006), Immortal Combat: Portrait of a True Warrior, United States: Blue Snake Books, p. 3, ISBN 1583941738 (see [11])
• Thomas, Bruce (2005), Bruce Lee: Fighting Words, United States: Frog Books, p. 15, ISBN 1583941258 (see [12])

— Myasuda (talk) 02:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

The first two books that Myasuda has presented appears to state the father is of German descent. The Last two state she is is 1/2 German. Peppermint Chills 06:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, three of them state that Grace's father was German. All four support Grace being half German. As do the other two books I mentioned earlier. — Myasuda (talk) 13:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I propose a different approach which may turn out fruitful: If someone could check on the vita of Bruce's father Lee Hoi-chuen who was also a prominent person, there is more of a chance to find something out about the background of his wife. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 11:08, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems some stated 1/2 but some stated 1/4. That’s why I would never trust those “so-called” reliable sources, and we can never reach a consensus from those materials

Lets look into more details on the issues:

How come Grace Ho had a Chinese surname “Ho” (if her father was German)? There were number of rumours citing that she was the daughter of the prominent businessman Ho Kom Tong.

Ho Kom Tong was actually an Eurasian. That possibly made Grace Ho as part of German.

I also agreed we could check on the vita of Bruce's father Lee Hoi-Chuen and Ho Kom Tong to find more informations about the background of Grace Ho. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Bear in mind, we have six credible sources from published books backing up the "Mother was half German", including Lee's widow, version as opposed to two sources stating she was 1/4 German. One of those is weak, really correcting the "English vs German" argument; the other is credible, but only appears in a magazine. See what can be found on Lee's grandparents, but be careful of Original Research. As for a compromise, if nothing else is found in the next 6-days, we will go with the credible sources and add a footnote stating that Mito and one other source state his mother was 1/4 German, not half. Remember, we can only put in the article what we can prove from a verifiable source.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 16:47, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

.Second that. But the reference by Mrs. Lee needs to be quoted verbatim to bar another onslaught by ignorant single-purposers. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I would like to ask: what does “verifiable source” mean?

It seems none of them were “verifiable sources”.

I think we need to find a proper interview by Robert Lee, other members of Grace Ho's family (or a credible family tree) to make a verification. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Well here is another book for 1/4 ----Prashad, Vijay (2002), Everybody Was Kung Fu Fighting: Afro-Asian Connections and the Myth of Cultural Purity, United States: Beacon Press, p. 127, ISBN 0807050113 Peppermint Chills 01:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, here is on that says that Bruce Lee is 1/8 German, now if my math is right, it backs up 1/4 German.Snipped view, so just follow link.[13] This also backs up Huo Xin's statement found here [14] Peppermint Chills 01:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Grace Ho's mother was half German, thus she was 1/4 and Bruce was 1/8 German. this has been said before, just look back, you guys are just worried about sources instead of the facts.There is obviously a conflict with facts going on, nearly split. The reason why you guys are finding her as "half" is because the authors didn't bother to look any farther back in the family tree, they saw "German and Chinese descent" and quickly assumed Half. Jut look at the context shown; one of the sources describe her as Chinese, but then go into a little more detail about her parents to found out some German in her. But they don't go any farther. You would then find out that her mother was half German, hence why the other sources have stated "1/4 German" They didn't just make it up make it upGonetohome (talk) 03:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

All right. I think the following link will settle this debate once and for all. At the 3:40-3:50 minute mark of the video link [15], Robert Lee states that his mother is half-Caucasian. — Myasuda (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Because Grace Ho’s father was Eurasian and her mother was half German. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:14, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

The video does solve the half-Caucasian, Nice find Myasuda. But he did not say anything specific about the German decent. We need to find a quote that states 1/4 or 1/2 German. I don't think we have any disagreement that Grace Ho is half-Caucasian, as we cannot doubt Robert about that, we have a disagreement about 1/4 or 1/2 German.Peppermint Chills 12:36, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

In case the YouTube link ever expires, I'll note here that the video is from ""Famous Families" The Lees: Action Speaks Louder (1999)" [16]. From Robert Lee's statement in the video clip, we conclude that Grace was half-Chinese (and therefore Bruce Lee was 3/4 Chinese and 1/4 Caucasian). This is consistent with the six book sources I listed, and it does invalidate the Black Belt magazine reference (which claims Grace was 3/4 Chinese). The only question that User:Peppermint Chills has is apparently whether Grace's Caucasian parent is full German or half-German. Given Robert Lee's statement in the video, and the fact that no other European ancestry is ever mentioned for Grace, I think we can have enough confidence to rely on Linda Lee's book that she was half-German. Concur? — Myasuda (talk) 13:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

“Half-Caucasian” doesn't mean “Half-German”.

If she was really half-German, Robert would have mentioned “half-German” instead of “half-Caucasian”. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:52, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

So, how do we proceed? In my view it is sufficiently established that Bruce Lee was one fourth German and his mother half-German, since this is what the person most qualified says, his wife, as well as other serious biographers. Differing views about the percentage and Causasian heritage should be put in footnotes. Undefeatedcooler was the only 'editor' involved who did not provide a single source which was, to be plain, expected. Therefore, I propose if he continues to be obstructive we move the whole discussion to the board on disruptive editing which would then be a better place indeed.

Agreed, it is established by the sources we have available that Bruce Lee was 1/4 German, a footnote should mention what Mito claimed (that his mother was 1/4 German).--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I further propose that, without any proof of Bruce ever having been a Chinese citizen, the pertinent categories are removed as well the infobox replaced with the "US American actor" box, as in Chuck Norris. Here, too, the statement of Lee's wife that he was a citizen already upon his arrival in the United States is the best source we have, although one would wish she would have been even more clear on that point. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 15:44, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Disagree partially here. The majority of Bruce's movies were HK movies. While Bruce was definitely a US Citizen, he was definitely a Hong Kong actor.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced about the 1/4 or 1/2 German ancestry deal, Still some holes, but for now i agree with Mike that 1/2 should be used in the Article, and have the footnote about Mito. That is the best we can do for now. Peppermint Chills 19:54, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Quick question, why don't we just use half Caucasian in the article instead of German as you can't really cite Robert Lee on that because he really didn't say half German and instead have the German ancestry conflicts in the Footnotes? Peppermint Chills 20:05, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it matters, whether we say "German" or "European" or that his mother was "Eurasian". As long as it is not worded in an awkward manner. Sometimes well-meaning editors trip over themselves to be politically correct and it raises more questions than it solves.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:40, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

At this point, I feel that there's no compelling reason to not use "half-German" to describe Grace's ancestry in the article. A footnote regarding Mito is fine, but Linda Lee's book should be regarded as the most reliable written source that has been presented on this particular matter. Robert Lee's quote may lack specificity, but it also doesn't contradict Linda's book. And further, Linda had the closest contact with the Lee family among all the authors listed (both before and after Bruce's death). As there's been no convincing evidence to show that she's mistaken on this matter, I feel that we can proceed as both User:Gun Powder Ma and User:Mike Searson have suggested.— Myasuda (talk) 03:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I take back my comment about the Mito footnote. Since it contains an inaccuracy (saying that Bruce's mother was 3/4 Chinese), as demonstrated by the Robert Lee quote, there's no reason to even reference it.— Myasuda (talk) 04:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Robert Lee's statement in the video was the “only” reliable source that had provided here. Therefore, "half-Caucasian" is most appropriate to this statement in the article, and we could use Robert Lee's quote as a reference point. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:14, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Undefeatedcooler, please see WP:RS, thanks.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 13:42, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Someone believed that Grace Ho’s father was German, but how come she had a Chinese surname?

Her surname is under suspicion, and there were number of rumours citing that she was the daughter of the prominent businessman Ho Kom Tong.

Please look into this. Thanks. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Cf. footnote 8 and thx that you made it first to the talk page before to the article. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Huh? “footnote 8” did not solve the suspicious of her Chinese surname. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Why she may have had a Chinese surname is beyond the scope of this article. Perhaps you should start a new onw on Grace Ho or the Genealogy of Bruce Lee. We can only put in this article what we can attribute to reliable sources, not speculation.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 15:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

That’s why I say: those “so-called” reliable sources were lack of reliability, we can never reach a consensus from those materials.

Perhaps, other reliable sources claimed she was “1/4 German”, but someone fancied the one with “German father”.

Well, her Chinese surname simply proved everything. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 12:53, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

UDC, we are using reliable print sources. If you have a problem with them, I would suggest you take it up with the original authors of those works, including Linda Lee Cadwell. To date you have not produced a single source refuting these, let alone multiple sources supporting your POV. There is no "German mother" source that can be found. Maybe if you keep looking, you will find it. I advise you to do that as opposed to disturbing progress on this article. Cheers.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:45, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but since there were different versions from the reliable sources, and none of them were 100% accurate and not consensus.

We are trying to bring in the truth to the article, not speculation.

If there is something that is not definite, we should simplify it or leave it.

By the way, this article is about Bruce Lee, not Grace Ho. Thanks. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 10:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Categories

Ok, so what is the consensus on the Chinese-related categories ("Chinese philosophers" etc.) and the infobox? We keep the infobox on the grounds that most of his films were originally in Chinese (were they?), but remove the categories for lack of evidence of his Chinese citizenship? To me this sounds ok. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:10, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Categories" are not just about citizenship (anything that related to Lee), and he was at least dual citizens, understand? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 10:58, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but his citizenship is directly related to his citizenship. You can't claim he is a dual citizen unless you can prove he was, and citizenship is a legal issue. So barring the revelation of two concurrently active passports there is little in the way of proving what his citizenship was. Normally this would not need to be proven but then, nobody is contesting Chuck Norris' citizenship. Since there is a contention there needs to be citations. That being said there should be little question of Lee's lineage. To call him a US Actor is blatantly false. He was a decidedly Chinese actor and rather proud of that fact. To dispute his citizenship is different than disputing his lineage. Any cultural reference to him should respect his Chinese lineage. Padillah (talk) 13:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

We don't know whether he felt more like a US American and Chinese actor, and it is irrelevant anyway. The only evidence we have so far clearly points at him being a US citizen (the testimony of his wife in her biography), hence he was a US actor. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

He was not only a US citizen and US actor, he was a HK citizen and HK actor before and after. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 19:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

While he was definitely a US Citizen, I favor using the Hong Kong Actor category. He started in HK cinema and the majority of his most notable filmwork was in HK Cinema. Let's discuss this here and hammer out consensus. UDC, for the love of God, please indent your posts and follow along with the rest of us.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit Warring

Folks, the editwarring is getting old. I'd like to think we could hash this stuff out like adults here rather than act like children. I hate having to go to ANI for these things, if this battleground mentality keeps up the next step will be RFC. Let's not go there. Let's go to talk and act like adults rather than people with a hidden agenda. Thanks--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:04, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike, I agreed with you, but it was Gun Powder Ma (talk) who always started the edit warring, and I thought the "Lead sentence" was settled by you and Tbrittreid ? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The constant warring has to stop, regardless of who started it! We will get nowhere at this pace. Please read the rules on wikipedia regarding edit warring. This takes up valuable time that could be spent improving the article.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Regrettably I had to request the page to be fully protected, which now has been for two weeks. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 20:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

So the edit warring by the one problematic editor can resume in two weeks? I've never understood the logic behind that type of kindergarten mentality.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, well, if they do, their going to be reported. So don't worry. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not worried, but they were reported this morning, before the 2-week lock on the article. So they edit-war again in 2 weeks and they will be reported and the article will be locked again, conveniently with the disputed version intact. I wouldn't mind, but the editor reverted 4 other editors six times in a row, including 2 admins. I fail to see how this helps anything.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:24, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't shoot the messenger. --Frank Fontaine (talk) 00:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not! We're cool!--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 00:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I am going to file an official complaint soon, if the admins do not reconsider their action. This was a crystal clear violation of the 3RR rule and I don't see any mitigating circumstances for that single-purpose account. I'd rather be willing to spend two weeks discussing with some admin than restarting the same childish game here in fourteen days. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

An official complaint to where? WikiMedia? You highly overestimate the "officialness" of anything here, and everything I did was within policy - just because someone violates 3RR doesn't preclude the page from being protected. I suppose you could have requested it at WP:RFUP, which wasn't mentioned above; instead, Gun Powder Ma chose to come be sarcastically bitchy on my talk page. Awesome; sorry I wasn't working for you as hard as I should. My salary here is a little low. At any rate, I agree with the gist of the above, and I am going to unprotect the article. If the obvious SPI starts again - which is fairly certain - notify me or the edit war noticeboard. And try not to be a bitch. Tan | 39 21:49, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

What a poor reaction. I am certain now you have convinced everyone of your competence... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

The "Ma" part of your name is apropos. Thanks for the scolding; I'm very, very chagrined and will never, ever disappoint you again. Tan | 39 22:11, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Seriously, I am appalled that the "Fight History of Bruce Lee" exists here on an encyclopedia that makes every attempt to be as accurate as possible. All of these so called "fights" are completely and utterly non-factual and are based solely on hearsay. There are absolutely no records of Bruce Lee actually fighting. Go ahead and look up this "Gary Elms" character. He doesn't exist. I have no idea why this section is locked, that note at the top doesn't make an argument for why it can't be deleted. Please do the right thing and erase that garbage. 76.213.246.134 (talk) 03:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)C

Ancestry and Origin will be removed from the infobox

Please read:Bobby Jindal: Ethinicity and Infobox Question plus please let us know if he also he remained or even was a Hongkonger citizen so we can add his nationality to the first line.(Only American or Hongkonger American?) -- And Rew 05:32, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

This topic was discussed here before, and sadly has been removed for no reason. Once again, Bruce Lee did actually returned to Hong Kong for good in 1971. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 14:39, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Archive?

Well, this talk page is well over 200 kilobytes long, and i can see that some discussions were restored, some of which have not been edited in months. is there anyway we can archive something as it is extreamly hard to navigate through all of this and it is recommended to archive when it exceeds 50 KB, or has more than 10 main topics here Peppermint Chills 02:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There, I added Mizabot so the page should auto-archive every 7days. We can change that after the bulk of the current page gets archived. Padillah (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Cause of Death

Lee used polyphasic sleep for most of his life, this could have caused unforeseen complications or chemical imbalances in serotonin, which could cause a hypersensitivity to drugs found in Equagesic. This is OR though, try to find some sources suggesting it. 99.236.221.124 (talk) 04:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I found something, doesn't suggest what you said. I'll wait until you have a source for me to conclude.Iamthemanofthehouse (talk) 19:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I asked Gun Powder Ma To stop being a Dick so you guys can finally get something done. Someone here makes you guys look like children arguing here.Mikimouseshoes (talk) 03:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Where are all these red-links suddenly coming from? Are you from the communist front? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 10:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Iamthemanofthehouse and Mikimouseshoes are sockpuppets and I did not find any reliable sources (but some sources) of Bruce Lee with Polyphasic sleep.Imperial Monarch (D•R) 07:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Please remove ad at the end of the article

Please remove the ad to the Light A Pixel memorial website Memorial website, pfffffffffft.... what a joke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.101.96.48 (talk) 18:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Nonsensical sentence

In the Wing Chun section of this Bruce Lee article, it says 'After a year into his Wing Chun training, most of Yip Man's other students refused to train with Lee after they learnt of his ancestry (his mother was of half-German ancestry) as the Chinese in America generally were against teaching their martial arts techniques to non-Asians.[ The bit that doesn't make sense is the part about chinese in america not wanting to teach non-asians. Bruce wasn't in America, he was in Hong Kong. It should read: as the Chinese generally were against teaching their martial arts techniques to non-Asians. If the article is to stay the same, then we'll need proof that Yip Man's student's were concerned about what pleases Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.106.216.138 (talk) 13:03, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Game of death 2 was not a bruce lee film. You should include Marlowe in his filmography because Game of death 2 [though you do mention it] was just stock footage. I could make a Bruce Lee film that way and there have been Bruceploitation films like that where they have stock footage of him from previous films including footage of his funeral how fucking sick.

This is not a forum Vtttmio (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

No consensus for edit

Can somebody undo this edit. There was no consensus that the citations were to be like that. And to add those two sentences back. Vtttmio (talk) 03:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I really don't think anyone will have a problem with the edit. Sure I did change most of the citations, but it was extremely inconsistent, and most of them seemed to follow that style. I removed the two sentences because I did not find it in the books cited (perhaps one cited the wrong books). wiooiw (talk) 06:49, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I guess you are right, somebody might have reverted the edit by now. But I still believe somebody else needs to approve of the edit. Vtttmio (talk) 06:59, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Haven't checked the reliability of deleted sentences, but in terms of references, that edit made them more consistent. Materialscientist (talk) 07:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

What was Bruce Lee's height?

The article quotes Bruce Lee's wife stating that he had a weight around 72 kg, but what was his height? Nowhere in this article do I find mention of this simple statistic. I hope some knowledgeable person enlightens us on this fact. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wargamer (talk • contribs) 21:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I think he was 5.7. Vtttmio (talk) 03:52, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

68in (173 cm) {Little 1998, p. 41} - wiooiw (talk) 09:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Respecting National Sentiment Of Chinese People

I have noticed many items in this article that not only have the incorrect perspective, but are also offensive to the National Sentiment of China. It is well known in China that Li Xiaolong ("Bruce Lee") was born in Fujian province. He was definitely not born in USA. This must be an example of USA trying to steal our culture.

Also, his martial art "Jiequandao" is the pinnacle of Chinese achievement. All of Li Xiaolong's disciples were Chinese and the inheritors of this martial art are to be found in China only! Please remove the references to these foreign imitators!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.174.189.20 (talk) 01:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you meen but you do realize that Bruce lee taught foreigners Chinese martial arts. Vtttmio (talk) 04:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you know what you are talking about. Are you Chinese? No foreigner has been approved by the appropriate Wushu committees in China to teach "Jiequandao". Please take down that list now! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.174.193.196 (talk) 05:10, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

This is almost so ludicrous that it shouldn't warrant a response. For one thing, it is a well documented and simple fact that Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, California. Take your ridiculous "National Sentiment of China" rubbish elsewhere. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 20:53, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes I am Chinese and what I am tryng to tell you is that Bruce Lee was not "approved" to teach foreigners but he did. Others have done the same. Vtttmio (talk) 05:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Also you do realize Bruce Lee opened schools in the US to teach his martial art. That was the topic in the film "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story". His Philosoghy is that there is no nationality. I believe it is referenced in the article. He did not care if you called yourself Chinese or american, he would still teach you. Vtttmio (talk) 05:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

The day we start to give credit to the "National Sentiment of <insert deeply offended nation, state or nation-state>", is the day we surrender Wikipedia to the political extremists, so take your national pride agenda to the waste dump. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:15, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Cite 25

Cite 25 is about "Lee also studied philosophy, psychology, and various other subjects" but the page http://www.washington.edu/alumni/columns/dec99/j_o.html don´t tell nothing about it. --85.61.18.59 (talk) 10:21, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

He attended as a drama major so it does support the sentence ("various other subjects"). wiooiw (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Drama have is own reference: cite 27, the previous cite (now cite 25 is cite 28):

"Lee enrolled at the University of Washington, majoring in drama according to the university's alumni association information,[27]"

The cite 28 (before 25) is ambiguous or duplicated.

--150.214.38.71 (talk) 07:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Valid point raised. The 2 refs point to the same url. Removed. wiooiw (talk) 11:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 67.186.7.114, 12 September 2010

In the list of physical feats by Bruce Lee, the first point says "Bruce's 'speeed' from 3 feet" it should say "Bruce's "strike speed" from 3 feet" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.7.114 (talk) 21:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Fixed (my mistake actually, I previously saw "striking" as "amazing" there). Materialscientist (talk) 21:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Exclusive use of pinyin: improper

As Bruce Lee grew up in Hong Kong, and spoke cantonese, I believe that jyutping should also be used. So people can also understand the cantonese pronunciation of his name, the name he was known as where he grew up and was made famous. I believe the article did previously have this, but somebody removed it, and I want to know why, and I will put up the jyutping and in future, if it's removed, I would like an admin's opinion on this —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guitar3000 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Someone has been going through the articles for many famous Cantonese figures and replacing the jyutping entries with pinyin ones. 71.162.110.125 (talk) 22:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Boligarla, 4 October 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

Please rephrase the following line under the sub-heading 'Death': "Bruce Lee is buried next to his son Brandon in Lake View Cemetery, Seattle, U.S.A"

This sentence sounds like Bruce Lee passed away after his son. However, Brandon died 20 years after Bruce in 1993.

Boligarla (talk) 18:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Please phrase edit requests in the form "Please change X to Y." elektrikSHOOS 00:40, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Physical feats

Is that section really necessary? The "Physical fitness" section already tells you he was strong as hell. Perhaps make note of one or two in the section above. I just don't see the point of 13 particular feats being its own section. wiooiw (talk) 00:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I feel it is a cult thing - he (almost) didn't compete and movie camera can easily exaggerate stunts, so many fans are really keen to have a measure of his abilities, for comparison maybe. Materialscientist (talk) 02:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, do statements such as "A man able to perform super human feats that have yet to be equaled." belong on Wikipedia? It feels POV, as does the word "feat". Shawnc (talk) 03:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed some POVish and subjective statements there. I feel absolute measures of his abilities should stay, provided the sourcing is reliable. More specifically, clarity on 24 f/s camera, breaking a bag and 6 inch boards are poorly defined "feats", but. Board breaking is a standard karate test, which needs to be described better (what boards, with fist, side kick?). I don't have full access to the refs, but from snippets, I can't confirm the board breaking and cola can thrusting feats. Materialscientist (talk) 04:00, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The physical feats should be deleted as they are NOT documented. They are from the same book, that claim that Bruce Lee could send people outweighing him with up to 100 lbs. or more "flying 15 feet through the air with one of his famous one-inch punches". Heavyweight boxers can't even lift an opponent inches in the air, but with a one inch punch 15 feet? All the physical feats were used to sell books and magazines and make money. I will delete the feats within a week unless there is real documentation, and not just commercial salestalk! Fightdane (talk) 12:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Where are you finding 15 feet in the article? wiooiw (talk) 07:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not finding it in the article. But the physical feats mentioned in the article is taken from the same book: http://books.google.com/books?id=UwlpC-S3j-gC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false Read page 22. The same guy that claims, that Bruce Lee made these one-inch-punches are the guy that claims the other physical feats. He is not a reliable. Anybody hit with a punch and are thrown 15 feet through the air is likely to die. The author is John Little. Here is another site, where he writes that Bruce Lee "Leaping eight feet in the air to kick out a light bulb". The world high jumping record at the time was about 7 feet 6 inches. So he could have broken the world record, had he just entered a high jump competition according to John Little. Therefore any physical feat that originate to John Little should be deleted. Let us see those risegrains be caught with chopsticks. There must be film footage. I am not saying, that every single physical feat is a lie, but some of them obviously are. Therefore they should be verified by some other source. Fightdane (talk) 13:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC) The other site is here: http://www.mikementzer.com/blee.html Fightdane (talk) 13:32, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Little is an authority on Bruce Lee, you cannot throw out a source because you don't agree with it. Find a reliable source that states different, or a reliable source stating Little is a liar.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I wish to point out part of your logic: If A is wrong then B-Z must also be wrong. That is a ludicrous statement and is not worth debating over. As far as the examples you provided, it might just be poorly written. See this video. If he was "moved" about 15 feet, then you could say that the source is correct. The "Jump" actually is wrong if they are referring to the Marlowe (film) scene, which it was a kick of about 8 feet. If he could jump 8 feet, he may not have been aware that it was a world record, considering the time, lack of resources et cetera. wiooiw (talk) 20:06, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Wiooiw, read my post again. I am not saying, that every single physical feat is a lie, but some of them obviously are. Therefore they should be verified by some other source. When someone claims something, according to Wikipedias rules it must be verifiable. A book is not verification as such! His strength is either claimed Linda Lee or John Little and never performed in public. People who clearly are lying about other feats. They are obviously not reliable sources.

Ask yourself this: if Bruce Lee could jump eight feet in the air, why didn't he use it in his movies? Why did he never perform that feat in public? How come he doesn't use the one-inch-punch in movies? If he could make a person fly 15 feet with a one-inch-punch, how far could he make a person fly with a normal punch? That would be fantastic in a movie. There are actually videos of his one-inch-punches on Youtube. People just fall back on a chair behind. Where is the verification for these physical feats? Has he done it on video? Has he done it in front of an audience of neutral observance? The list of physical feats is a violation of the Wikipedia rules. Therefore they must be deleted, or at least there must be a statement, where it is noted, that they are unverified! Fightdane (talk) 10:17, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty clear that the comment about 'leaping eight feet' refers to the height of the light above the ground, and not the height of the lowest point of Lee's body during his kicking motion. The book you linked to above in fact cites instances in his movies in which this was performed (page 21). Whether or not eight feet is an accurate estimate is another matter, but your interpretation of the text is incorrect. — Myasuda (talk) 13:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Fightdane, are you telling me that books are not a reliable source and it does not provide verification in this policy? As far as your statement that they are liars, you will need to find a reliable source that states it. wiooiw (talk) 19:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

When I was a kid, I bought books about UFOs. UFO-experts wrote, that these were credible incidents of UFOs visiting our planet. No books wre written to contradict them. Does that mean, that the article on UFOs should contain these stories?

Today I work as a journalist. Books, especially autobiographies and official biographies, are not to be considered objective descriptions of events. When Tony Blair writes his memoirs of his time as prime minister, it should be considered the way he WANTS things to be seen, not as they are. When Guinness Book of Records recognizes a record, it is not enough, that someone claims a record in a book. Some of the physical feats are actually from websites! 50 chin ups in one arm? But how long did he have? If I google world record for one arm chin-ups, people are talking about 22 or 23. But those are only claims! You can't find videos. When someone claim 50 for Lee 25 years after his death, it must be verified by more than just words from a friend or fan or an official biographer.

As it says in the guidelines you mention: Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field.

I have no doubt, that Bruce Lee was a very fit person with great physical strength. But physical feats should be verified.

Fightdane (talk) 21:31, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Awards and Honours section

Someone deleted the page without reason. All informations were sourced. Wikipedia really lose his credibility if some Wikipedians act like they want. Cheers (i mean this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_awards_and_honors_of_Bruce_Lee) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.245.118 (talk) 19:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The page still exists. Someone changed "honors" to "honours". That´s all.

Robert Hotung

These individual aren't real chinese decentants??

What exactly is unclear — that Ho Kom-tong is his brother or that Ho Kom-tong is the father of Grace Ho? wiooiw (talk) 01:30, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Probably that Grace Ho is the daughter. They are brothers.... Vtttmio (talk) 10:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Hotung's article used to state that Grace Ho was his brother's adopted daughter (maybe if he married her mother?). I can't find anything concrete on Grace Ho being a biological relative of Hotung. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 02:12, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Martial arts lineage

Edit suggestion: Patrick Strong should be added to the names of "Notable students of Jun Fan/Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do". He was a student of Bruce's in Seattle, and has been teaching Jun Fan Gung Fu/Jeet Kune Do for quite a number of years. A quick Google search will evidence the numerous seminars he has done, his video series, and his contributions on many Jeet Kune Do/Jun Fan Gung Fu Forums. Strikingthoughts (talk) 20:14, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Nationality: Chinese American

Here is a big issue. Can Bruce Lee even be consider as an Chinese at all? For someone to be chinese don't they need to be pure chinese and not mixed. As bigotry that may sound, I think you have to be 100% chinese to be consider called chinese in the first place. Other than that, he can only be consider as an person born a to mainly 3/4 chinese parents. I do however take that he is an american. Just to bring to attend about his grand parents and other link in his family pre and post. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.155.209 (talk) 03:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

This article needs a proper introduction because it doesn't have one. His nationality must be mentioned in the opening paragraph. Chuck Norris and Jackie Chan has one; and i'm wondering why Bruce Lee doesn't have one?.

I'm going to add his Chinese-American nationality in the opening paragraph, if people don't mind. He was a Chinese-American of Hong-Kong heritage. He was born in the U.S., but was raised as a Chinese, and that makes him a Chinese American. What do you think? Chinese or American for introduction?--StreetfighterAkuma talk 05:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Here is one of many references describing Bruce Lee's Chinese American nationality. http://www.asianweek.com/2009/05/08/chinese-american-hero-bruce-lee/ http://www.freemooviesonline.com/magazine/cinema/actors-and-actresses/bruce-lee-the-master-of-kung-fu.html --StreetfighterAkuma talk 07:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

As a Hong Konger I would disagree with the term Chinese American. He was certainly an American, this is undisputable. The fact that his parents were from Hong Kong makes him entitled to Right of Abode in Hong Kong (in those days right to land). No where did it say that Bruce Lee was Chinese. As China does not recognize dual nationality and Bruce Lee was an American passport holder he was certainly fully American with the right to live in Hong Kong. To address how Bruce Lee was raised, Americans are free to be raised in any way that they please. If you go to some kids with a yellow face in Long Beach, California and call them Chinese they would likely tell you that they are American.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.132.167.14 (talk • contribs)

I think "Chinese American" is correct in the same way as "African American" but Chinese as in "raised Chinese" is more debatable as Hong Kong differs greatly from mainland China. --Nate^t/_c 13:45, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

You can't compare those "kids with a yellow face in Long Beach, California" to Bruce Lee, as Lee was raised in HK and the fact that he did returned back to HK for good in 1971.

The most important thing is he always considered himself as Chinese. In all of his movies, he was never an American, that clearly explained everything.Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:30, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Please stay focused. Nationality is a formal (passport) distinction which is irrelevant to where the person was raised and how does he/she feel about it. This thread is actually not a general forum on his nationality. It is about the specific phrase added to the lead, "Bruce Lee .. was a Chinese American actor". Materialscientist (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Correct, but Lee was also a Hong Kong citizen. Hence, "Hong Kong actor" should also be added along with "Chinese American" to the lead sentence. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 13:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Removed Chinese categories per past discussions Talk:Bruce Lee/Archive 4#Lead sentence and Talk:Bruce Lee/Archive 5#Ancestry of Bruce Lee`s mother. This was long overdue and only undone in the course of Undefeatedcooler's relentless revert-warring. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:59, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Gun Powder Ma, you are out of topic here again, please stop messing around in this discussion page. Undefeatedcooler (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

the proper way to term him is american chinese. he is a chinese born in america. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.120.169.4 (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Puffery, unsupported attribution, overinflated claims, and flowery language

I did a quick read of this article and it is need of some serious cleanup and constant monitoring. It is evident people are adding in unsupported claims and making some really inflated statements all over the article that other editors aren't catching. Many of these additions seem to be made by people with a poor grasp of English grammar. For example I just removed the sentence "Lee's familiarity of the Art of War was infinitely diverse from his studious life-time focus." This is really getting out of hand, and fairly ironic since this is exactly the type of mythical, unrealistic crap that Lee himself strove to strip away from martial arts. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Acting Career

(Bruce Lee Childhood Acting Career) (As we all know Bruce Lee made some good martial arts movies in his adult life, but how many of you know of his childhood acting career in Hong Kong? Bruce Lee was born in 1940 and because of his parents' connections, grew up around the movie and theater industry.

Bruce was a popular child actor in the 1950's in Hong Kong and was in demand by the studios. He was typically cast as the poor kid or orphan that usually tried to do the right thing but he occasionally played the kid that got into a gang. His first film was actually in 1941 when he was a baby of three months as a stand in for another baby.

In the earlier films he played in a minor or supporting role but later he became the leading character in the films. His first major part was in 1950 in a movie called "the Kid". The movies director played the part of a gangster who gets lee into the gangster life. Bruce Lee's father was also in this movie as a rich guy. Bruce's father played in almost one hundred films during his life.

In 1960 Bruce played his last role as a child actor. The movie is called "The Orphan" and starred Lee as an orphan that gets forced into a life of crime. It was after this film that Bruce Lee left Hong Kong for the United States. In all Bruce was in about 20 films as a child actor.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.243.242 (talk) 17:17, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

"one of the most ... of the 20th century"

Was he really just "one of" the most influential martial artists of the 20th century? Who was more influential? I don´t see anyone. If he was one of - or the most influential martial artists of the 20th century, he was undoubtely one of the greatest martial artists of all time. What s about changing it to "...one of the greatest martial artists of all time and a cultural icon"? Take Care —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.88.131.226 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Masahiko Kimura, Mas Oyama, umpteen Gracies, Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey...I can keep going if I need to. They all lived in the 20th century and unlike Bruce they were all martial artists instead of actors, since we have proof of them all fighting. That sentence is lucky to stand as it is without inflating this actor's status even more. 211.133.143.74 (talk) 06:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Fighting does not make you a martial artist. Anyway, you need to read the article because you seem to be misinformed about a few things. wiooiw (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Calling Bruce "one of the greatest martial artists of all time" would be a textbook example of puffery, contentious labeling, and likely unsupported attribution. A statement like that has no place in this article. I suggest that you read the article on Wikipedia's manual of style before any further editing. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 06:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

You should consider the difference between martial arts and Combat sport, it´s by far not the same! One of your interests is Mixed Martial Arts, and many MMA fans forget this difference. Mr. Bruce Lee is considered by various documentarys and magazines about martial artis (including Black Belt Magazine) as "one of the greatest martial artist´s of all time", "the greatest martial artist that ever lived", "thought by many to be the greatest martial artist of the 20th century". Is it puffery and unsupporting if The Ring Magazine considers M. Ali or J. Louis as "one of the greatest HW Boxer of all time", or a soccer magazine does the same with Pelé and Maradona? It seems you dislike Mr. Lee - like many MMA fans -, but it doesn´t change the fact he is a martial arts legend. If people starts to arguing about this they should do some researches first before continue to talk about it. Merry Christmas — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niten Doraku (talk • contribs) 13:17, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't even TRY to preach to me about the difference between martial arts and combat sports. I am well educated on both, thank you. You don't know me, so please don't assume I "dislike Mr. Lee." Wikipedia is a place for facts, and calling ANYBODY "the greatest" at ANYTHING is subjective and has no place in an informative, neutral encyclopedia article. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 03:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is clear that YOU are the one with the agenda here. Nobody even mentioned MMA until you brought it up and start spewing your nonsense. Don't try to make this into some imaginary "Bruce Lee vs MMA" war that doesn't exist anywhere but your mind. Shaolin Samurai (talk) 06:12, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you should calm down a little bit. I wrote "it seems...", not "you are ...". That s a difference. Maybe i should have wrote "it could be" or "maybe" instead. I just took a look to your profile and saw one of your interests is MMA, and many MMA fans have problems to call Lee a martial artist, only an actor. If you are open minded (and i believe you are), ok! But please also don´t claim things about me which are untrue (agenda, BL vs. MMA, etc.), thanks.

+ Tyson and Dempsey aren t "Martial Arts Legends", they are Legends in the Combat sport of Boxing, not in Martial Arts. Martial arts is not just practical, it has also much to do with theoretical and philosophical stuff. Some people should do research about Combat sport and Martial art, it s not the same. Cheers mates ;-) Niten Doraku (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Feats of Bruce Lee

There has been ongoing a rather large amount of discussion with the myths of Bruce Lee's feats.

These points are the ones stated in the article on wikipedia, which very few people find reliable - and there arent any proof of evidence to support this, except statements in Warm Marble - which has no sources to back up the facts:

1. In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.[77]
2. Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.[73]
3. Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.118.29.195 (talk) 16:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

and why can 't you just believe it???sitting in your pc and doubting about what other people have achieved interests you?sorry,this is pathetic!anyway the source is more than enough to support the statements,taking into account the abilities he had developed. Frizstyler (talk) 12:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Bruce Lee's mother's ethnicity

Is she 25% German, or 50% German? I always assumed she was 50% German and 50% Chinese, but her Chinese name seems to imply otherwise. Also, her children look rather Chinese. Estheroliver (talk) 22:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

There was a lot of debate about this a few months ago which you should be able to find in the archives at the top of this page. I do not remember the conclusion if there was one.--Charles (talk) 22:47, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Her father was German, her mother Chinese - as the quoted sources say. So BL was one fourth German actually. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

She is the daughter of Ho Kom Tong, is that mean Mr Ho Kom Tong was German? Undefeatedcooler (talk) 11:53, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

• Impossible his mother cannot be a german or from german orign,in this documentary video,his brother says our father is chinese,mother is caucasian:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9L5HMSroh4&playnext=1&list=PL8AE8D098A6D06B8B&ytsession=zwHRyuzSV-EbAxJmSktuuk0FphL2Echgnc0LZJZ5Cfk4FzWOc4jvnXONV0c8xE5WPPva9-IUgolyB46h37Y5tA_SYfA1Ki7kMOpUhSVT2wgjZbXWayoE4djrW5UpUGhYxE1q4XFjlMujItnsKhFgN_u9cWEzVIK4IXkrFdd5YyrI81PHjRn75iTF24MQFTonGukfAraOT8mmL7ihMm6ovq_HY4GNihGawXEAcCMwA8uTvwxKqQNkeHbWfjNeoRbufgwxz_QHKmVuHSjomvtHbfprEgjsvP57qS-h7AnhqK2VI8AElvFvJVGF46ipp7PPRX84ovqBtiUSuk6K0vu9LAKkjulFDr4I --88.243.248.105 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Physical feats?

This section is a joke. Just because one man says Bruce could do all these increadable things doesnt make them true. Bruce spent almost his entire life in front of camera's , if he could really do the things that John Little says he could then there would be clear examples on film for all of us to see / judge for ourselfs. Its worth noting here that Bruce himself never claimed to be able to do these amazing feats of strength. In Bruces famous TV interview he was asked if he could break a board by hitting it he replied "i would probably break my hand". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.33.225 (talk) 17:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Vitaloverdose, 18 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

Hi , i think it would be fair to add a note to the section 'Physical feats' that these claims are NOT backed up by any real scientific investigation. They are mostly the opinion of one guy 'John Little' who clearly writes books for a living and has a vested intrest in making inflated claims about Bruces abilities.

Bruce himself NEVER made any claims like the ones made in this section. Maybe you could add this quote from the famous TV inverview with Bruce.

Pier re: Can you break five or six pieces of wood with your hand or foot? Bruce Lee: I'd probably break my hand and foot!

Vitaloverdose (talk) 18:30, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

This has been touched upon in the past, but I think it is beyond the scope of Wikipedia to declare that John Little is a non-reliable source (and probably constitutes original research.) Are there any sources that dispute John Little's expertise or question the validity of his claims? ‒ Shaolin Samurai (talk) 06:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your response Shaolin Samurai , I just think it would be more fair to add a note at the end of the section 'Physical feats' that the claims are just made by one person and are not FACT (John Little). Because at the moment its not clear from the article that these are just one persons opinions. Its very strange that a man who spent most of his life in front of cameras didnt film himself doing any of these unbeliveable feats of strength. I have seen a bit of film where Bruce takes a very long run up and does a side kick on a punch bag that makes it almost hit the celing and thats verifiable ( but not very remarkable ). But John Little's statement sounds like he could do this from a standing sidekick. Vitaloverdose (talk) 18:37, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Requests to edit semi-protected articles must be accompanied by reference(s) to reliable sources. If you can supply such a reference, please reinstate your request. If you question the references given, please ask on WP:RSN. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  07:54, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

 Not done

Actually, it is within the purview of WP:RSN to determine what is and is not an acceptable Reliable source. It may be best to review the issue with them and see what they say. Padillah (talk) 19:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

There. Request is in. Padillah (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Cycling

The article claims "Lee would ride the equivalent of 10 miles (about 16 kilometres) in 45 minutes on a stationary bike". This is very low, particularly for somebody of Lee's physical fitness. I average about 25 miles (40 kilometres) an hour at a steady but fairly vigorous speed. I'm fit by normal standards but would be like a Lada compared to Lee as a Ferrari in a race. This would mean that Lee only cycled at 15 mph which I find hard to believe as it most certainly isn't intensive riding. Are we certain these figures are correct?♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:10, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

A wild guess - Lee might have used (nearly) maximum "load" setting on his bike. Materialscientist (talk) 14:26, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible but I average about 30 km an hour on maximum load... I'm above average fitness but I'm hardly anywhere near Lee's league... It just seems low for him that's all... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:04, 29 January 2011 (UTC) Interestingly my average of about 40 kilometres an hour is about the same speed on average as the Tour de France cyclists who managed 3,642 km (2,263 mi) in 91h 58' 48" (average 39.60 km/h/24.61 mph). But a significant part of the course is uphill, not to mention wind resistance and they overcome exertion after several hours of riding! Rather different from an exercise bike!!! Those cyclists would undoubtedly be way quicker in the gym on a stationary bike!!! I doubt I could keep that pace beyond 2.5 hours, but maybe I'm underestimating how fit I am..... I would though find it extremely tough doing it for five hours at a time, let alone every day for three weeks!! I think my ass would ache more than my legs though on the saddle... ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:15, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Other

I came here hoping to find out if he was left or right handed. There was no mention of that, or his apparent ambidexterity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.234.164.237 (talk) 19:27, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Though I did not search for any text, going from two pictures found on pages 92 and 24 of "Bruce Lee:Artist of Life", and a scene from Enter the Dragon, Lee was right handed. I did not find a picture of him writing left handed, but that does not mean he couldn't. wiooiw (talk) 20:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

7 Death

This section is very confusing. In paragraph 4, it says,

"The only substance found during the autopsy was Equagesic." There is no mention of marijuana or cannabis.

Then, in paragraph 7, it says,

"The preliminary opinion of the neurosurgeon who saved Lee's life during his first seizure, Peter Wu, was that the cause of death should have been attributed to either a reaction to cannabis or Equagesic. However, Wu later backed off from this position, stating that:

"Professor Teare was a forensic scientist recommended by Scotland Yard; he was brought in as an expert on cannabis and we can't contradict his testimony. The dosage of cannabis is neither precise nor predictable, but I've never known of anyone dying simply from taking it."[110] "

There is no mention of any other drugs between those paragraphs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Themom51 (talk • contribs) 01:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

editprotected

{{editprotected}}

1. Please add the protection template to the article.

2. Please add {{otheruses}} to the article, as Bruce Lee (disambiguation) exists.

65.94.45.160 (talk) 05:58, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Both  Done. Next time, please use {{edit semi-protected}} as the page is semi-protected, not fully-protected. :) —GFOLEY FOUR— 21:35, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 69.209.205.119, 15 June 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Somebody removed the death date and place in the infobox and i am asking can it be restore. 69.209.205.119 (talk) 20:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Fixed a coding typo in the transcluded infobox template (the death data were always present, but got hidden). Materialscientist (talk) 00:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Dubious claim

The fight ended by Bruce knocking Uechi the length of the gymnasium.
REF: Official cc 01596 Karate Vol2 No 2  Fall 1995, p. 61

I've moved this claim here until it can be verified. What in the world is "Official cc 01596"? Is this a magazine? Can the title be clarified and the author be attributed? I don't think this claim will hold up to much scrutiny, let alone physics. Warthomp (talk) 06:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Small gym?TheThomas (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Philosopher?

Should the introduction really state that Lee was a philosopher? I think this is stretching it. His University major was in drama, not in philosophy. A lot of the writings collected in "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" post humously were simply notes Lee had made from other philosophers. The famous "Be like water" quote is a rephrasing of Tao te ching. His first book "Gung Fu, the philosophical art of self-defence" can hardly be considered a philosophical thesis. Any martial arts teacher has a certain fighting philosophy. Although there have been published books which attempt to capitalize on Lee's name and portray him as a philosopher, much of the material is in fact rewritings of traditional eastern philosophy. As a comparison, Elvis Presley is not listed as a philosopher on Wikipedia just because "The Tao of Elvis" was published by one of his fans.

I also think the philosophy part in the article does not meet the standards expected of an encyclopedic article, especially the quotes section. It should be deleted or rewritten into a coherent paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ugh3n (talk • contribs) 19:57, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Lee was definitely a philosopher and decades ahead of his time. His philosophy changed Martial Arts and is far-reaching in its influence in everything from JKD, itself to ecclective arts, modern MMA, even modern Combatives and Gunfighting. His unique look at fighting and training make him what can best be called a "Martial Philosopher". I agree that this article still needs a lot of work and large parts could stand a rewrite.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:13, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The documentary "How Bruce Lee Changed the World" does provide some points on how his philosophy has influenced many people. The founders of UFC and Free running have credited Lee for influencing them. I will also agree that this article needs alot of work. wiooiw (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The man in the black-and-white photo is not Bruce lee.

He was Kim Tai Chung,a martial artist from South Korean who played "Billy Lo" in the 1978 moive Game of Death,a moive Bruce lee did not finish due to his sudden death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.168.119.68 (talk) 00:15, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Allergic reaction to THC

This is from Talk:Touch_of_Death#Bruce Lee and the "Touch of Death" but seems more applicable to this article assuming it can be verified and the book The Tao of Bruce Lee is considered a reliable source.

Though rumors were rampant at one time to the effect that Bruce Lee's death was caused by an application of some form of the "Touch of Death," Davis Miller, in his book The Tao of Bruce Lee, claims that he interviewed the presiding coroner at Lee's inquest, who told him that Lee's death was the result of a severe allergic reaction to THC, the active compound in hashish, with which Lee was self-medicating heavily in an attempt to deal with stress. According to Miller, and to the coroner, this type of reaction, though somewhat rare, is most commonly found in Asian men. When Miller asked the coroner why this information wasn't widely known, as opposed to the mythical story of the "Touch of Death," the coroner replied that, strangely, no one ever asked to see the actual inquest report.<ref>Davis Miller, ''The Tao of Bruce Lee'' (Three Rivers Press, 2001)<ref>

--Marc Kupper|talk 00:08, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 75.61.129.24, 11 September 2011

The information in the "Games" section of this Bruce Lee article is unsubstantiated and incomplete. The section claims that two fighting game characters are based on Bruce Lee. Judging from the appearance and fighting styles of both characters, Bruce Lee does seem to be the influence for their design. However, there is no source such as an interview with the characters' designers, etc. The claim that these two characters are based on Bruce Lee comes from the author's personal judgment.

There was an actual Bruce Lee video game in 1984 for computer systems out at the time, including the Atari 800. Here is a link to the Gamefaqs page about the Atari 800 version: http://www.gamefaqs.com/atari8bit/937853-bruce-lee

If the claims that Bruce Lee was the basis for the two fighting game characters’ designs cannot be proven, it should be removed. The information about the 1984 game should be inserted regardless.

Thank you.

75.61.129.24 (talk) 18:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Done — Bility (talk) 18:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

What is going on here?

Hey, I want to add a qoute of his, but I don't see an edit button. What gives? Love,TheLittlestTerrorist (talk) 18:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Al Novak

Mr. Novak seems to have a fairly important early role in Lee's life, according to the info in these references: [17][18][19][20][21]. Could someone work this into the article, if I dont get around to it. He needs his own article.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 08:31, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

legally speaking, it is impossible to be Chinese/ American

I'm an American citizen, born in Ohio, that has lived in China for close 10 years (Jan 2002). Since then, I've married a Chinese and have had 2 kids born in Shanghai. It is legally impossible by both US & Chinese law to be American/Chinese citizen. I looked into it, I spoke with high dollar lawyers. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE DUAL CITIZENSHIP BETWEEN THE 2 COUNTRIES!!!! Bruce Lee was a person born in China that became an American. please correct your literature and while at it, check the laws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.38.77.27 (talk) 13:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Your statement is false. Bruce Lee was born in California. He was never a Chinese citizen, although he did grow up in the British crown colony of Hong Kong. — Myasuda (talk) 15:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure "Chinese American" is not at all referring to dual citizenship. Lee was born in the U.S. and so is a full American citizen COMPLETELY LEGAL. The added word "Chinese" is in reference to his genetic identity. As is the term African American does not refer to dual citizenship of U.S. and Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.62.206 (talk) 10:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

"Genetic identity" you say. Shouldn't he be called a "Han American" then? 184.96.202.120 (talk) 16:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Electric shock

In Linda's rendition of Lee's life, she briefly mentions his usage of body electrodes and electric shocks to exercise his body. A documentary on Lee's life I watched many years ago blamed his ever-increasing usage of electrical body shocks as the cause of his death. I don't see any mention of this at all in this article. Is this a controversial issue? – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  07:34, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe it's simply unsubstantiated. Was there any doctors support for the documentary? Was the documentary picked up by others and pursued? Just because it was in a documentary doesn't mean it's true or verifiable. Padillah (talk) 15:30, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

This claim is mere conjecture unless verifiable sources can be found with evedice of electrode usage for muscle gain is dangerous/deadly. Therefore it does not belong on the page..yetP0PP4B34R732 (talk) 20:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you both very much, Padillah and P0PP4B34R732! All makes sense to me. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  06:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

When you said "Linda's rendition" above, what exactly did you mean? I did perform a search on this topic, but only found a reference to electric shock in "The Tao of Bruce Lee: A Martial Arts Memoir" by Davis Miller (Chapter 22) and this claim did not appear to have a source attached to it. Regarding the documentary you mentioned, I suspect you're referring to the movie Bruce Lee: The Man, The Myth which cannot be regarded as reliable. — Myasuda (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

As an ACSM-CPT I can not see how the stim treatment could do that08:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)MPB21 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MPB21 (talk • contribs)

Gary Elms

"Lee defeated three-time champion British boxer Gary Elms". I can't find any other sources that even mention this name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reonidas (talk • contribs) 05:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

it already says earlier in the article that the tournament took place only one year after lee had begun to be taught boxing at xavier by brother ___. he also had only studied kung fu starting at 13, and got little sparring because his mother was half german. this was obviously not a hong kong high school championship, as stated in the article, but a tournament between a few catholic schools with novice school boy boxers, and gary elms was NOT a 3-time champion. a lot of the sources for this information were from bruce lee's friend (and employee), who was hardly impartial and a noted liar. bruce lee won ONE novice school-boy tournament between a few catholic schools and had limited kung fu training in hong kong as well, if you really look at the dates and facts of this article. nothing against the man, but sometimes it's hard to separate fact from fiction when it comes to his admirers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.209.199 (talk) 04:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Odd that Gary Elms is a three-time British boxing champion but his name can only be found in articles or books about Bruce Lee. The sport of boxing is pretty well known for keeping exhaustive records at least as far back as 1882. 211.133.143.74 (talk) 05:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Not really, I used to think that, too, about boxing, but found out in reality it has more to do with which particular organization is keeping the records.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 December 2011

Under Occupation, the phrase " martial arts founder" Can that be changed to martial arts practinioner" or deleted completley, as any philosopher knows, Bruce practiced, not founded the term nor the act of "martial arts" I would surely apreciate it. Sincerely A fan of both, Wiki & Bruce

208.54.39.248 (talk) 10:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Puffin ^{Let's talk!} 23:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

"Martial arts founder" simply means he founded a system, obviously not all martial arts. Are some people so slow that they think orherwise?--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 06:28, 5 January 2012 (UTC)