Talk:Bitumen/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Suggest 1 possible wiki link and 1 possible backlink for Asphalt.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Asphalt article:

  • Can link organic matter: ...al material produced by the [[destructive distillation]] of organic matter. Both tars and asphalts are classified as [[bitumen]]s, a ...

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

  • In Pat Metheny, can backlink ASPHALT: ...ida Greeting Song, Legend Of The Fountain, See Song * BLUE ASPHALT / PAT METHENY GROUP (Lobster CD003) Pat Metheny(g) Lyle May...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:30, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Low Temperature Mixing Section

Anybody mind if I remove the "Low Temperature Mixing Section". It is huge, irrelevant and wholy copied from an external source. If anything it should be put into a separate article. However an external link should suffice. Toiyabe 17:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Shell advertising

The article inclusion on vegetable oil based asphalt is clearly Shell's "advertising" its products and shoud be removed as susch. 124.181.200.222 14:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Bitumen has been used in painting...

Since Bitumen was used in painting in the 19th century in such a way that it helped define a certain artistic technique, it should probably have it's own entry.Strangebright (talk) 19:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Strangebright

About that painting thing...

Here is a direct quote from Wikipedia's entry on the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood: 

  This emphasis on brilliance of colour was in reaction to the excessive use of bitumen by  
  earlier British artists, such as Reynolds, David Wilkie and Benjamin Robert Haydon. 
  Bitumen produces unstable areas of muddy darkness, an effect that the Pre-Raphaelies   
  despised.

It sounds like this would distinguish it from asphalt per se, unless I'm missing something here.Strangebright (talk) 19:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)Strangebright

The same?

I think not... They come from different sources and bitumen is added to asphalt to change the compound depending on its intended use. They are different in many ways so I don't think merging these topics would be appropriate.

Chris (talk) 19:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose merge. Not the same. Cewvero (talk) 14:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Why nor reliable Reference text not allowed?

Your edit here was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove unwanted links and spam from Wikipedia. If you were trying to insert a good link, please accept my creator's apologies, but note that the external link you added or changed is on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia.

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Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! XLinkBot (talk) 12:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Why you delete my added information please? for article be reliable reference must be show.Liuliu45 (talk) 12:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I have read info on wikipedia guide line and i only add reference to what exists on the asphalt page already such as this reference link to the other companies also yes?[1]I also add reference link to Bitumen page which was for UNEP [1] which you remove, why you say this not reliable information link? Liuliu45 (talk) 12:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Because UNEP is reliable link reference i put link back ok? I appreciate very much you helping me Liuliu45 (talk) 12:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC) I also add good credible reference link from CSIRO to asphalt publication article that show info on this geo320 paving invention yes? [2]I thinking if asphalt article have info on this product same as shell or colas have same, then is ok to show reference yes? Liuliu45 (talk) 12:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Liuliu45 (talk) 12:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liuliu45 (talk • contribs) I add one more reference ok, that shoe credible link on product showed on pitt & sherry road conference in Australia [3] Liuliu45 (talk) 13:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

This seems another sock of user:Ecopave. You are adding these links since the original documents are all blacklisted. --Dirk Beetstra T C 14:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You is paranoid sir! you is not well! Kimlee2 (talk) 04:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
It appear you is on a hunt yes because the References has been purposely sabotaged so one can not edit on article page!! Kimlee2 (talk) 04:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If the Alternative article is to be credible, then good references must be showed this is Wikipedia own guideline yes. If you only show colas and shell this may be bias yes! I put good reference link to show who invent asphalt bitumen in first place please no remove or you malisiously sabotage article content yes! [This bio-bitumen GEO320 technology was first invented and pioneered by Ecopave Australia in the 1980's and 1990's[4]]. thanking you for help. Kimlee2 (talk) 04:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Another sock of Ecopave! Kimlee2, or whoever you are, please stop making new accounts, they will be reverted and blocked anyway. All the 'references' you add are to ecopave info (since you are not capable anymore to insert links to ecopave itself) and that is deemed promotional. Please choose one main account, request an unblock on that, and only use that account. And in the meantime, please stop adding these 'references', you may have noticed there are many users here that revert these edits anyway. We are not a promotional website, we are writing an encyclopedia. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Bioasphalt

Bioasphalt is asphalt from biopetroleum. --Mac (talk) 08:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Mispronunciation

If find it hard to believe that asphalt is one of the most mispronounced words in the english language. Sources? I personally have never heard the pronunciation "ashfalt". Everyone I know says "asfalt". But maybe I live a sheltered life? :-) 137.222.40.132 13:35, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I've heard several Canadian and one least one Aussie engineer pronounce it "Ash-falt". I always figured it was a Commonwealth thing like "Aluminium". The fact that I've heard it from the lips of folks who deal with the stuff on a daily basis leads me to think of it as a regional pronunciation rather than a mis-pronunciation. I can't recall ever hearing that pronunciation from someone born and raised in the US. Toiyabe 19:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Canadian's in my experience typically pronounce it as ashfalt.--65.94.105.144 01:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
This is correct. You will be hard-pressed to find a Canadian who doesn't pronounce it as ashfalt or ashfault. However, in our own little corner of the world, ashfalt/ashfault is, indeed, the correct pronunciation, and you will be corrected if you don't start the word with ash. Snickerdo 05:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, as far as Canadians are concerned (being one myself), the proper pronunciation, given our own little dialect, is "ash-fault". However, the proper spelling does remain "asphalt", as far as technical fields are concerned at least (I'm currently in a chemical engineering program).
That's news to me. I'm Canadian, and I grew up calling it "ass-falt". I thought people who said it wrong were trying to avoid saying "ass". Are all of you in the Atlantic region perhaps? 207.189.230.42 (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I have also heard "ash-falt" many times in Ireland, especially from my father. He is a civil engineer, now retired. On searching in google for "Ireland Ashphalt" there were 34,800 hits. A lot less than the 1.280.000 hits for "Ireland Asphalt" but still enough to show that it is, or at least was for my father's generation, an acceptable pronunciation. The rate in this case is 1 in 50 and not 1 in 1000 as stated by NTK.—This unsigned comment was added by 83.40.166.254 (talk • contribs) .

Regarding British pronunciation, I've found between English, Scottish and Welsh-English speakers it is either "ass-felt" or "ass-fall-t". --Myfanwy 16:02, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

In UK construction, "ash-felt" is widely used. I have never heard "ass-falt" used by anyone in civil engineering

I work in asphaltene research and work with people from various parts of the world and I see no regional pattern with the mispronunciation. It may be that the mispronunciation is steming from the silent letter 'p' causing people to misread the word and say ashphalt instead of asphalt. It is my understanding that not reading words properly enables the human mind to read much faster than it otherwise could. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_reading) I don't understand why the Canadians are taking a stance on an understandable mispronunciation as if its part of their constitution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anderthevulchar (talk • contribs) 16:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Bioasphalt

Bioasphalt is asphalt from biopetroleum. --Mac (talk) 08:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm I searched the web for it, trying to find about it as I never heard about Bioasphalt before, and I'm in Brazil, where biofuels is the bomb since the 80s. De only link in English I found was [5] the rest is this article, MAC's user page and a bunch of myspace pages. And I tried to find info in Portuguese to, to no avail. I'm leaning towards hoax, and I can't find any WP:RS. Samuel Sol (talk) 12:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

BioBitumen and Bioasphalt

Theres info on Bio-bitumen and Bio-asphalt on the web, see this link which I added into the Asphalt article page http://www.gtkp.com/uploads/public/documents/Knowledge/Eco-road%20Technologies%20Review-a.pdf 203.171.199.249 (talk) 10:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Ancient times?

What are the dates regarding ancient times of origins of asphalt methods? Faro0485 (talk) 00:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

"Asphalt" versus "Asphalt concrete"

The article states that the material often used in road construction"is usually called 'asphalt concrete' in North America or simply 'asphalt' elsewhere". I live in North America (Massachusetts), and I've never before heard the term "asphalt concrete". Once in a while I've heard the material called "bituminous concrete", but it's almost always "asphalt" in my experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dtgriscom (talk • contribs) 13:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I live in Canada and never heard of asphalt contrete until I read this article. I've only ever heard the name "ash-fault" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.179.151 (talk) 22:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe if you were talking to a roading engineer and spoke to that person about ACM you might get educated a little. ACM stands for asphaltic concrete matrix and it, to a road engineer, describes a whole range of mixtures that can be used for the water-proofing of the underlying matrix and, to some extent, the load-bearing surface that people drive their vehicles on. The matrix varies with the required load-bearing performance, the trafficing performance (wet or dry, hot of cold) and the wear resistance of the surface. Lin (talk) 10:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The article makes it sound like people who aren't road engineers call it 'asphalt concrete', which is a problem, because it clearly isn't the case. Nailedtooth (talk) 22:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I think we're dealing with different dialects of the English language. I don't recall hearing about asphalt concrete, and I don't recall meeting any roading engineers either. We call them highway design engineers and they call it asphalt (usually pronounced ash-fault).RockyMtnGuy (talk) 03:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I grew up in southern Missouri and currently live in Texas, I've never heard it called asphalt concrete either. And it's always said here as'as-fault'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.208.224.161 (talk) 19:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Asphalt concrete is not used in North Carolina or Virginia, where I grew up. The article also says that bitumen and asphalt are confused by people in North America -- the only confusion would be that people in North America would not know what bitumen meant if someone used it. Change this part of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.35.147.96 (talk) 06:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Ashphalt

The mis-spelling is not rare, as a Google search shows, and the mis-pronounciation is not rare either (I didn't know it was a mis-pronounciation). Brianjd 06:18, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

Brianjd, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here if you are going to use Google to back this up. There are 8,510 hits for ashphalt vs. 5,070,000 hits for asphalt, so that is a rate of about 1 misspelling in 1,000, which is definitely uncommon—moreover it seems like there is actually a band or song with the neologism "ashphalt" in it so not all of these are actually misspellings for asphalt. If every misspelling that occurred at a rate of 1 in 1000 or more was included in Wikipedia, then most of the entries in Wikipedia would need a section containing a litany of misspellings. I am going to take this back out. Please do not revert this unless you can provide a new justification as to why this is an exceptional enough misspelling to mention here. NTK 06:27, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

68.232.68.53 (talk) ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW from someone with dual citizenship.....

Misspelling and mispronunciation of "asphalt" seems to be limited to Canada, in my experience. Having grown up in the US (California), never in my life had I heard anything other than "asphalt", and had never seen it spelled any differently. I moved to Canada (Toronto) in my adult life, and suddenly heard it pronounced at "ashphalt". I asked my Canadian husband what the deal was....he claimed that he had heard it pronounced as "asphalt" when he was younger, but noticed the change over the years, which subsequently caused him to pronounce it "ashphalt". The misspelling of the word seemed to slowly develop over time, as a way to get the word's spelling to conform to it's new pronunciation that the Canadian's had adopted.

Now that this change has taken place, all Canadian's seem to have adopted the "ashphalt" version of the word, however I have seen it still being spelled both ways here. You would be hard pressed to find any professional roofer or driveway repaving company that doesn't pronounce it "ashphalt"! But - when I travel just 70 miles south into New York, the residents there all say and spell it as "asphalt"....confirming that it is NOT a northern thing, but exclusive to Canadians. I don't believe that going to Maine or North Dakota or Washington state would change these results....all U.S. states, be they Northern or Southern, still use "asphalt" in both pronunciation and spelling. It would be interesting to see a published paper on why, when, and how it changed over to include an extra "h" in the word in Canada, and why that habit didn't bleed over across the border into U.S. towns that are so close to the Canadian borders. If anyone knows of any such report or study or paper, please provide a link here. Until then, based on my having lived on both sides of the border, my experience tells me that this occurred sometime around the early 70's, and the other person who suggested that someone didn't appreciate the "sound" of saying "ass fault" might have started the trend that caught on and took off nationwide. 68.232.68.53 (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)KLWD1963

The pronunciation "ash-phalt" (and to a much lesser extent the spelling) seems to be widely used in the British Commonwealth. It's mostly used by Canadians, Australians, and New Zealanders. Some British and many Irish seem to use it, and even a few people in the US border states. However, Canadian pronunciations and those in the northern border states have been changing in different directions in recent years, while Canadian spelling has been moving away from US spelling toward British spelling.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 05:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

History

It would be interesting to learn more about the history of the technology, and the reasons why it has changed. -- Beland 00:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The article on German unification notes:

As German states ceased to be a military crossroads, however, the roads improved; the length of hard–surfaced roads in Prussia increased from 3,800 kilometers (2,361 mi) in 1816 to 16,600 kilometers (10,315 mi) in 1852, helped in part by the invention of asphalt, then called macadam.

Why isn't the invention of asphalt addressed here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.121.204.129 (talk) 18:27, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Seems to be some confusion there. Asphalt is a mineral, largely found in crude oil. No one "invented" it. Macadam is a road surface of crushed, compacted stones. Tarmacadam (or "tarmac") is macadam with tar (or coal tar) added as a binder. Asphalt pavement is an agregate (such as crushed stone) bound up in asphalt.
Macadam was introduced around 1820, fitting the timeline you give. Tarmac arose with cars. Asphalt pavement is a 1920s invention. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The use of asphalt as a paving material was probably invented by the ancient Mesopotamians several thousand years ago. The Germans and English just improved on a very old idea.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 14:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
Minor quibble re: "Asphalt is a mineral...". Minerals are inorganic compounds. Asphalt is a mixture of hydrocarbon compounds, which are organic. There is naturally occurring asphalt, which is not found "in crude oil". There is also refined asphalt which is the heaviest of the many products produced by refining crude petroleum. WCCasey (talk) 06:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Bitumen and asphalt are both naturally occuring minerals that are used in various combinations to create a very durable surface suitable for roads. The finished combination is often called tarmac which, strictly speaking, is incorrect. Tarmac is short for "tar-macadam", meaning a coating of tar (or bitumen) on the surface of a macadamised road - this being the near-universal modern method of road construction invented by John MacAdam near the end of the 18th Century. It involves laying a well-drained foundation of large stones, overlaid with crushed rock, which is bound with gravel, watered, and compacted to form a tough, durable roadway which can shed rainwater and stand up to heavy traffic. MacAdam built experimental roads on his private estate in Scotland, then became responsible for road building in the Bristol area, and was eventually made surveyor-general of roads in England. By the end of the 19th Century, his methods had been adopted all over the world. With the rise of the bicycle and the motor car came the final refinment: spreading a thin layer of asphalt over the surface of a macadised road to form "tar-macadam" or, as it is called today, "tarmac".

Re: "near-universal modern method of road construction" (see above). The "tar-macadam" method is rarely used today in the US; never on major highways and roads. US roads are "asphalt concrete" or "Portland cement concrete" laid over a base of compacted crushed rock. Also; bitumen and asphalt are different names for the same thing, and neither is a mineral. They are mixtures of hydrocarbon compounds. WCCasey (talk) 06:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
It seems that Karen's keyboard is running hot. I'll go find an area where I don't have to type so fast! Tannin
I'm looking at the tarmac wiki article, it says it's origin is 8th century Baghdad. Perhaps we need something mentioning the difference of asphalt and tarmac on the top half of the wiki. Because I confused the two before reading the above. Faro0485 (talk) 00:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not all that proficient in English, and do not know what "roofing shingles" mean. Kdict offers the following explanations for 'shingles':

1) Eruptions along a nerve path often accompanied by severe neuralgia 2) A kind of herpes (Herpes zoster) which spreads half way around the body like a girdle, and is usually attended with violent neuralgic pain.

Niether of which seems appropriate. Is there a typo here, or do shingles mean tiles? Cederal

Yep: shingles is effectively another word for tiles: in Australia at least I'd use to mean small tiles, typically made of wood, but can't speak for other forms of english. --GPoss 09:37, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

In the US, shingles (small tiles) made with asphalt combined with other materials are usually called "composition shingles" or, colloquially, "asphalt shingles". The same materials are available in roll form, up to 12 feet wide. "Roofing tiles" usually refers to a product traditionally made from stone or ceramic. Modern imitations of those materials are available in a variety of mineral (concrete, etc.), plastic, and fiberglass materials. WCCasey (talk) 02:03, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Lead Image

I hate to be a stickler, but the lead image for this article isn't a very good representation of asphalt. This coarser aggregate (often referred to as pug* by the industry) is generally used as a foundation for what most folks actually identify as asphalt.
Maybe someone could track down an image of more traditional asphalt for use here? If not, I'll be able to snap off a couple high quality pics of various materials within the week and offer them up for assessment.
Beyond that, the article appears to be coming together nicely. Maybe we could set some goals for it. Or at least establish a roadmap to good and featured article status.
--K10wnsta (talk) 20:05, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
*In the strictest technical sense, pug actually is an asphalt, as variably small amounts of bitumen are mixed with the aggregate to allow for shaping along the roadbed. Pavers may also add more bitumen to a pug and use it as a temporary finish on rural roads, allowing them to allocate costly, fine finish asphalt to more visible (sub)urban streets. While they save money in the short term, pug-finished roads degrade extremely fast (2 to 3 years) and can be hard on the tires of those who drive them regularly. On the flipside, when pavers return to apply proper asphalt after a year or two, problem areas in the road surface are more easily identifiable.

I was going to say exactly the same thing about the first three images, thought I think it's much more misleading than you suggest, given that these depict what is described at the article on asphalt concrete and that the term asphalt as the title is the common name for exactly that. If we can't decide what "asphalt" means (per the discussions above, or if people keep posting the wrong images) then this needs to be a disambiguation page to these two topics under more precise names. DAVilla (talk) 01:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
We're probably never going to get everyone to agree on a definition. If you read through all the Talk above, you'll see what I mean. I, for one, maintain that 'asphalt' is the same as 'bitumen', whether natural or refined. Both terms refer to a pure petroleum product only, and do not include any added aggregate. What we Americans commonly call asphalt is really 'asphalt concrete'. That first photo looks like the type of asphalt concrete surface you might find on a very light-duty (usually private) road (or it may be a new layer applied over existing pavement - I can't tell for sure from the photo). I agree it's not a good lead image for an article on asphalt, but can't think of one I've seen that would be better. BTW - I've never heard the term 'pug' - is that British? WCCasey (talk) 06:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
After reading through the article again and making some edits to improve consistency and clarity, I have a suggestion that may help all of us. If we refrain from saying that asphalt is this or that, and say instead that 'the word is used to mean this or that, in this or that country', we can avoid a lot of disagreement. WCCasey (talk) 07:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Merge of Asphalt and bitumen

It seems necessary to suggest a merge. (Excluding the meaning of 'Asphalt' of Asphalt concrete_ it seems to me that the terms, and topics covered in this and the other article refer to the same thing - though the bitumen article claims they are different terms , then uses the term 'asphalt' extensively. I see no need to treat them differently, however if the intention is to use the article "bitumen" as referring only to naturally occuring free (not in crude oil) stuff, then I think that distinction should be made much clearer. I can't see the need for separate articles. An 'usage' section in a single article would be helpful.Imgaril (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Content forking is probably an essential read - the main issue being the duplication of material over the two pages - eg both have several sections that duplicate coverage. Thanks.Imgaril (talk) 20:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Merging has been suggested before (see above). I agree that asphalt and bitumen are synonyms. Confusion arises from differing local definitions. In California, where I live, asphalt means asphalt concrete, unless you're an architect or civil engineer. On the other hand, asphalt-based roofing and waterproofing products are referred to as bituminous. Go figure. WCCasey (talk) 20:55, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Merging with bitumen

The bitumen article is very similar to this one and it's not really necessary to have two separate articles. I think bitumen should be merged with this article, or asphalt be merged into bitumen and this article remains to distinguish the otheses of the term "asphalt" (there is only one use for the term "bitumen" so keeping the articles separate might reduce ambiguity). Suggestions? Eirinn 09:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, bituminous concrete and asphalt are the same thing, so I think the asphalt article should be the "main", and the bitmun content added to the "main" article (like the alternatives section is good). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frmorrison (talk • contribs) 20:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, asphalt and bitumen should not be merged. Asphalt is used to describe a range of mixtures of bitumen with mineral components (sand, stone, etc.), ranging from the asphalt found in natural lakes (such a Trinidad) with less than 20% mineral components to porous asphalt with under 5% of bitumen. Bitumen is the 'pure' material giving asphalt it's visco-elastic properties. Finally, asphalt concrete is the full name for asphalt mixtures that have a concrete-like composion, giving it a relatively great resistance against deformation. Asphalt concrete is abundantly used as a road construction material. The new EU legislation on asphalt distinguishes seven types of asphalt mixtures, and one of these is asphalt concrete. However, other types of asphalt (e.g. stone mastic asphalt, porous asphalt and mastic) may be referred to as asphalt concrete in practice as well. And I must admit that I'm not familiar with the usage of 'asphalt concrete' outside Europe. 145.92.16.135 08:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that they should be merged, linking them together makes more sense. One usage of bitumen in the U.S.A. is as an adhesive for installing raised pavement markers on roadways. -- unsigned comment I don't feel like finding who did... Strawberry Island 18:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what bitumen is and if I type that into the search box I want to know exactly what it is... not be redirected to asphalt. Even it 95% of the bitumen article gets merged into the asphalt that is fine but leave something in the bitumen article to tell us what it is in straight terms. Strawberry Island 18:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea. Governments in Canada define bitumen as crude oil that will not flow toward a well under reservoir conditions, whereas asphalt is considered a refinery by-product used to pave roads. Since Canadian production of bitumen from the Athabasca oil sands is increasing rapidly and will soon constitute most of the oil produced in the country, the distinction is significant. Unbeknownst to most Americans, Canada is already the largest exporter of oil and refined products to the United States and the volumes are growing steadily. RockyMtnGuy (talk) 03:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Oppose merger Merger is not a good idea for reasons set forth by others above. If anything a further split may be needed to adequately cover the topic of "asphaltum" and natural deposits. Cewvero (talk) 00:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  • This merger tag should be removed since it has had eight months to gestate and has failed to rally support. The commentors are generally opposed to this merge. A merger should only be performed if there is a clear consensus to merge. Cewvero (talk) 18:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bitumen should not be merged with Asphalt. Bitumen is used as an adhesive in roads such as Chip seal by laying it down and dispersing 1-3cm rocks over it. Asphalt is used in its self as a road with out mixing any other texture objects such as rocks. While they are related as petroleum products they can have very different uses in road applications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.189.58.234 (talk) 22:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Interwikis

How is possible that there are two interwikis in Arabic, Bulgarian, Polish and another languages??? Some interwikis are unnecessary and should be deleted. --Treisijs (talk) 17:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I looked at these a few months ago - basically the other wikis have pages that need merging on the whole
For example the Ukrainian wiki has an article "bitumen" and "asphalt" which both cover natural and artificial - maybe someone could leave a note on those pages suggesting a merge .Imgaril (talk) 15:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Intewiki links 2

The interwikis should only contain links to articles about asphalt/bitumen not "asphalt concrete"

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asphalt&diff=486835102&oldid=486829798


Oranjblud (talk) 15:34, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, I see that the google-translation to english gives a different result than the swedish translation... I am satisfied with this result. Hubba (talk) 15:50, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Merge

Done the merge - essentially all the content (excluding some images) from

and

has been included, with some rewriting.

material not included :

The Paving Grades of bitumen are 30/40, 60/70 and 80/100.<ref>http://www.bharatpetroleum.com/business/specialities_Bitumen.asp?from=bus</ref> The grade 80/100 is commonly used in India and Bangladesh but for lower temperatures other grades are preferable - reason - not sure if this is true for all countries. Please check.

I also merged the interwiki links - some are duplicated, others already on this page should actually be on the page Asphalt concrete - I've fixed a few but need someone else with universal language skills to do the rest..

It's likely that the lead section and others would benefit from being checked for grammar etc. Also if someone can proofread and check for duplication and other errors.

There's an opportunity to move the page to Bitumen, and have Asphalt as a disambiguation page for this page, and "Asphalt concrete". It's also possible that the primary page for "Asphalt" should be "Asphalt concrete" since it looks like most people in most countries understand it to be the road material. It may be worth looking at other synonyms for this - eg "Bitumous pitch" as redirects.

My expectation is that at minimum Asphalt should be a disambiguation page, and this page renamed Bitumen, or given another name, maybe Bitumen / Asphalt. Imgaril (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

also the only good article in its class de:Bitumen - might be a source of more info specifically the "classification" section, also details of hydrophobicity, chemical stability, also has some additional info on tests, uses. Some hints on small but real improvements that could be made to this article. It's worth noting that the english article has far more info, - with suitable work, not that hard to do, mostly just tidying I would expect to get a "good article" out of it, if anyone is interested in that sort of thing. (not me) It's already fairly well referenced, (though not complete), with little or no obviously dubious or rubbishy content. Well done and thanks to those who have worked on it. Imgaril (talk) 15:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


Bitumen and asphalt are not the same thing at all. Bitumen is a naturally occurring substance that can be found in the oil sands in Canada, and in carbonates in many parts of the world. Asphalt and tar are refined product -- they are a manufactured (not-natural) product. 02:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Bitumen, not Asphalt

195.110.213.100 (talk) 15:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC) This article is definetely about Bitumen. Bitumen is the commonly used term for "Bitumen binder" The term "Asphalt" for the bitumen binder is used mostly by american-english speaking natives only and technically incorrect. Asphalt in technical terms means the bitumen binder mixed with gravel and brought to ground building roads - this is asphalt. A road is made of asphalt. Asphalt is made of gravel and bitumen binder. 195.110.213.100 (talk) 15:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

This gets into the usual problem on Wikipedia with the collision between different dialects of English, each nation appearing to believe that theirs is the only true version. The above definition appears to be British. The Canadian definition of bitumen in legal terms is "crude oil that will not flow toward a well under reservoir conditions". This is important, because Canadian has 85% of the world's reserves of bitumen defined according to the Canadian definition, and the total area of them exceeds the size of England. Asphalt is defined as a refinery byproduct used to pave roads, which is more or less the same as the American definition. Americans seem to use "asphalt" and "bitumen" more or less interchangeably. RockyMtnGuy (talk) 19:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I see three issues here; (1) should the articles be merged? (2) if so, what should the merged name be? (3) how should asphalt concrete be treated? Regarding (1); they are largely duplicative, I think, so merging seems warranted. (2) I don't have an opinion; redirects help readers looking for either term. (3) asphalt concrete should be treated in a separate section in the merged article. Asphalt (both usages), asphalt concrete, and bitumen are closely related and it is easier to address the confusion among the various terms in one article, not two. Walter Siegmund (talk) 16:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Walter is exactly right. I repeat what I said below: Bitumen and asphalt are not the same thing at all. Bitumen is a naturally occurring substance that can be found in the oil sands in Canada, and in carbonates in many parts of the world. Asphalt and tar are refined product -- they are a manufactured (not-natural) product. Peter McKenzie-Brown

As RockyMtnGuy notes, it's a situation where different dialects of English vary (MOS:ENGVAR). In U.S. English, asphalt (or sometimes liquid asphalt, asphalt binder, or asphalt cement) is used where other forms of English might use bitumen. In U.K. English, bitumen is typically used for asphalt cement regardless of source. Some languages use something closer to bitumen for asphalt cement (German for instance), others use something closer to asphalt (Greek for instance). Some industries or organizations may draw a strict delineation (bitumen = natural source; asphalt = refined source), but it's not evident that that's more than MOS:JARGON. I can speak to the U.S. road construction industry and while some people favor the use of bitumen for asphalt cement to minimize confusion with asphalt concrete, the crude bitumen found in oil sands has to be refined before it can used in an asphalt pavement mixture. Carter (talk) 22:27, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

I am a US chemist and I was puzzled by being redirected to asphalt when I wanted to know the density (range, typical) of bitumen (which of course is nowhere to be found). In my 40+ years chemical industry experience, asphalt and bitumen were NEVER equivalent terms. People who claim otherwise need to cite an authoritative source. ASTM for instance. Asphalt is NOT bitumen. Bitumen is NOT asphalt. What nonsense. I allow I may be wrong, but unless an acceptable authority can be dug up, I maintain that it is an error to perpetuate the ignorance of mistakes in terminology, no matter how many people (with zero education to justify their opinion) hold an incorrect view. Should we merge the article on uterus into one on womb? How about heart with soul? My point is technical terms are categorically different than lay terms, and should be treated as such. Oh, by the way, I am unable to understand how a long discussion of history and terminology belongs in the section of the article titled "chemistry". This entire section needs a total rewrite (not that it contains much of substance). I am amused by the claims that modern analytical techniques are unable to identify the compounds that comprise bitumen. More nonsense from the 1990's or maybe even 1980's.173.189.78.18 (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Is World Health Organization authoritative enough? "Asphalt (CAS No. 8052-42-4), more commonly referred to as bitumen in Europe, is a dark brown to black, cement-like semisolid or solid or viscous liquid produced by the non-destructive distillation of crude oil during petroleum refining," Concise International Chemical Assessment Document 59 Or Eurobitume? "Bitumen is an oil based substance. It is a semi-solid hydrocarbon product produced by removing the lighter fractions (such as liquid petroleum gas, petrol and diesel) from heavy crude oil during the refining process. As such, it is correctly known as refined bitumen. In North America, bitumen is commonly known as “asphalt cement” or “asphalt”. While elsewhere, “asphalt” is the term used for a mixture of small stones, sand, filler and bitumen, which is used as a road paving material. The asphalt mixture contains approximately 5% bitumen. At ambient temperatures bitumen is a stable, semi-solid substance." What Is Bitumen? I'll grant the article needs work, but asphalt vs. bitumen is a case of MOS:ENGVAR Carter (talk) 00:56, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Ashfelt

The term ashfelt redirects here, but is not mentioned in the article at all. My understanding is that it is somewhat of a UK synonym for asphalt and seemed to be commonly used there. If anyone is familiar with the term and could add to the lede (perhaps) and the etymology section, that would be helpful. dhollm (talk) 02:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a misspelling based upon a variant pronunciation common in some dialects/variations of English, particularly in the British Isles. Carter (talk) 12:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Noise reduicing asphalt

May I suggest noise reduction asphalt to be added?
Several new streets where I live use this kind of asphalt and I was hoping to find something here.
I searched around and found this article that shows different texture and layer stuctures used to reduice noise:
"Road surfaces influence the generation of noise by tyre/road interaction and the propagation of noise from the vehicle engine and transmission system. The relevant factors for noise emission are the texture of the surface, the texture pattern and the degree of porosity of the surface structure." Low-noise road surfaces - silence-ip.org
But the asphalt I was searching for is called, in french: "Asphalte Phonoabsorbant" (phonoabsorbant asphalt?). It seems to be a mixure using rubber (old tires?) which gives a more smooth surface. See this image: http://ge.ch/bruit/assainissement (official Swiss goverment website) -- － Cy21 ➜ discuss 18:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is bitumen = asphalt?

I've been reading the topics on bitumen and asphalt. I believe that the two articles were merged prematurely. It seems to me that bitumen is a category of hydrocarbons that includes coal, tar, pitch, petroleum, and asphalt. I do not see those issues covered in the discussion. Seems like a premature merge to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.158.132.3 (talk) 16:52, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

POV

removed claimed biblical date for Noah using bitumen on the Ark. Clearly that date is disputed, and the Bible does not include a date at all. 76.105.216.34 (talk) 23:05, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Needs a new section on Toxicity and Carcinogenic Qualities of the components

Since it is so widely used, the rainwater run-off into drinking water supplies and food plants is an issue that needs to be mentioned in this article. Starhistory22 (talk) 04:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

"Ashphalt"

I heard this pronounciation in the rather marvellous Up Against the Wall, by The Tom Robinson Band. Our article has an uncited "occasionally /ˈæʃfɔːlt/)". Given the word's origins, it seems odd that it should be pronounced that way. Is it "occasional" or "incorrect"? --Dweller (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

That pronunciation is common in Canadian English: "Many Canadians pronounce asphalt as "ash-falt" /ˈæʃfɒlt/. This pronunciation is also common in Australian English, but not in General American English or British English." I suppose a British punk band could pronounce it the same way if they picked it up from the colonies.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

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Edward De Smedt

Edward De Smedt can be found in the Dutch Wiki. Peter Horn User talk 16:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

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Mad Slasher still running loose and needs to be put away

Is there any hope that the ugly and, if I am not mistaken, contrary-to-Wikipedia-policy repeated use of the slash-conjoined construction "asphalt/bitumen" throughout this article will be cured sometime before this decade has passed into history? The existence of alternative terms should be explained in the lede, or very early on in the main body of the text, and then the term which has been settled on for the name of the article—I care little whether it is "asphalt" or "bitumen"—should be used throughout. The current absurdly equivocal approach to what seems to be one of those pesky AE/BE conflicts, presumably someone's well-intended attempt to make everyone happy, has produced a result no less bizarre and inappropriate than the endlessly repeated use of "colour/color", "lift/elevator", or "gramophone/phonograph" throughout an article would be. I am amazed that this has been allowed to stand for so long. 66.249.174.110 (talk) 06:03, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Totally agree: it is ugly! But as others have mentioned here, I also believe Asphalt and Bitumen are not the same thing. According to what I read, they can be used as synonyms in literature, but not by road professionals. I believe that the two articles were merged prematurely. -- － Cy21 ➜ discuss 11:52, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
    • Yes, it is contrary to style (Manual_of_Style#Slashes). I took the bull by the horns and deslashified the article. Since the article seems to have settled on asphalt for the title, I used that throughout. However, I stuck with "bitumen" for the naturally occurring material, on grounds that the article says that that is the term preferred by geologists worldwide, and "asphalt concrete" for the paving composite. I also moved the terminology sections to the top of the article, right after the lede, on the theory that in a case where the terminology may be confusing it is important to define it up front. There might be better solutions; further rational refinements are certainly welcome. Gould363 (talk) 15:59, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Reassessing the merge

There was never actually a discussion about the merger between Asphalt and Bitumen. Or, at least, there was never a successful one. As can be seen on many of the topics on the talk page archive (particularly this one), everyone except for User:Imgaril and apparently a barely active (notable, as will soon become clear) user named User:Eirinn was against this move. Imgaril single handedly carried the move through anyway and masked it as consensus and a result of discussion. It should be noted that he was blocked just half a year later for sockpuppeteering. Anyhow, I'm not sure sure the two topics are the same. There are plenty of arguments from the several people who objected to it in the provided archive page. One argument in support of it was that bitumen is the "European name" for asphalt, but this is very much not true as can be illustrated by the perception in virtually every one of the European languages. The Danishba, Dutchba, Frenchba, Germanba, Italianba, Norwegianba, Portugueseba, Spanishba, Swedishba (etc.) and pretty much all Slavic language Wikis all have separate articles for Bitumen and Asphalt. All of them at least mention the other on one of the two pages but show that they are definitely not considered identical within this part of the world. Compare Asphalt concrete, also known as asphalt, which similarly has its own page because it just isn't the same thing. I strongly believe that the now-banend Imgaril was pursuing a personal belief of what it meant rather than acting upon a learned conviction, and that he discarded any challenges to his proposal. A new discussion is warranted. Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 11:24, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

  • The Bitumen article has been restored to its prior state before the merge so a proper discussion can take place. -KAP03(Talk • Contributions • Email) 20:47, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support merge - The current article text says that they are the same thing: "The terms bitumen and asphalt are mostly interchangeable...", "Asphalt, also known as bitumen...". Neither article makes any clear delineation of scope that excludes the other. If they are, in fact, separate things, the articles need to be rewritten to explain that. If that happens, I will gladly support them being separate articles. As it stands now, having them as separate articles is just going to confuse our readers. Kaldari (talk) 22:55, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @Kaldari: Since it has been quite a while since the merge occurred reverting back to Special:Permalink/437148526 (which does not mention bitumen) will revert many constructive edits since then but it could be done. -KAP03(Talk • Contributions • Email) 23:38, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @Kaldari: I redirected it back to Asphalt to prevent confusion on this request. If the merge is opposed here they can be separated. -KAP03(Talk • Contributions • Email) 23:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
      • Can anyone explain what the scopes of the split Asphalt and Bitumen pages would be? Would it just be that bitumen is natural and asphalt is refined? If so, that seems like a fairly minor distinction. Basically it's still the same substance with the same properties (broadly). Kaldari (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep merged I think the current Modern Terminology section covers this pretty well. The article is written from the standpoint that in American English asphalt correctly refers to pitch. It is not so relevant how the terms are used in any European languages. This article as it stands is about pitch. That "asphalt" commonly refers to "asphalt concrete" is not so relevant here. Please see for example Exon Mobile's page equating bitumen and asphalt as the same product. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Keep merged In the road engineering world, bitumen/asphalt/asphalt cement/liquid asphalt/asphalt binder/binder are all used pretty much interchangeably with the primary difference being is from or in the United States or not. Compare, for example the primary trade association in the U.S., Asphalt Institute, vs. it's counterpart in Europe, Eurobitume. The idea that bitumen is naturally occurring and asphalt is refined does not match with common usage; taken from Eurobitume's Production web page: "A variety of different refining methods produce different kinds of bitumen and allow the manufacturer to produce specific characteristics in the bitumen. Producers often blend multiple crude oils together to produce consistent, high-quality bitumen that meets precise engineering specifications." Carter (talk) 01:52, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

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Oiled road

Oiled road redirects here, but is not explained in the article. -- Beland (talk) 04:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

I noticed this, too. Perhaps add a small section at the end, with a title something like "Related road surfacing"? Here are some potentially good resources:

— Molly-in-md (talk) 02:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Incorrect Definitions

Asphalt is the composite product of aggregate, bitumen, and sand filler. Bitumen is the black viscous petroloid... this article is misleading.

--Azkanan (talk) 06:56, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Unmerge / Merge of Bitumen and Asphalt.

Talk History is present at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asphalt/Archive_1#Merge_of_Asphalt_and_bitumen.

Asphalt is a specific substance. With merge( even tho there was no consensus ) there has been a confusion created regarding bitumen. Other forms of Bitumen are now mentioned in it.

This is confusion is clearly indicated by the nomenclature of origins. One reference claims its origins to be Sanskrit in pertaining to pitch ( and indicated substances like pitch from pine ). Pitch can be obtained from various sources. Pitch from Pine is a different substance known as pine tar in English. The process of production and use is entirely different than asphalt for the most part. If the reference is correct i have no doubt that it is, then one substance is unrelated to another al-tho they have similar uses sometimes. Similarly Coal tar is a similar but distinct substance. Also Wikipedia has a separate entry for pitch. The page has already been De-merged a couple of times so I am starting this discussion so that at some point it might be de-merged again have a current record of conversation on it.

2607:FEA8:1BDF:EBBF:90C8:1A87:164A:6724 (talk) 10:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this. They are separate materials. Like-for-like, it's the contrast of Bitumen and Asphalt, and Wool and a Jacket.

--Azkanan (talk) 06:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Disagree: There are some differences in the nomenclature and how each word is used in varying forms of global English, but for the most part the words are used interchangeably and refer to the sticky liquid binder used in roofing shingles, pavements, and similar products. This is true for both refined asphalt/bitumen and natural asphalt/bitumen. I'm not entirely clear if you're arguing that pitch and coal tars are both forms of bitumen; if so, that is far from the common understanding, at least in the U.S. and civil engineering applications. Carter (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Environmental Effects section needed

This article is currently lacking description of the environmental effects of asphalt production and use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.191.24.204 (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

What you say for make-ing asfalt-road with ..

"kvarz-gravel". ((Si1-O2)n). We will get the white road. For more stability against Sun-shines. And more strong .. 176.59.192.120 (talk) 12:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Need clarification - Pitch Lake vs. Athabasca

The lead section of the article contains two statements that I found confusing and seemingly (but not necessarily) contradictory:

The largest natural deposit of asphalt in the world, estimated to contain 10 million tons, is the Pitch Lake located in La Brea in southwest Trinidad...

vs.

The Canadian province of Alberta has most of the world's reserves of natural asphalt in the Athabasca oil sands...

My guess is that there is some nuance here, perhaps a distinction between "natural deposit of asphalt" and "reserves of natural asphalt," but as a non-specialist, I have no idea what the difference is. The cited sources did not help, so I'm not sure where to even begin to try to fix it. I'd encourage someone with a little more background in this subject to do so. --EightYearBreak (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Confusing verbiage in Terminology

Under the modern terminology sub-section the first and third paragraphs are decidedly at odds.

P1: "In British English, "bitumen" is used instead of "asphalt". The word "asphalt" is instead used to refer to asphalt concrete..."

P3: "In American English, "asphalt" is equivalent to the British "bitumen". However, "asphalt" is also commonly used as a shortened form of "asphalt concrete" (therefore equivalent to the British "asphalt" or "tarmac")."

I'm American and the 3rd paragraph, 1st sentence isn't accurate, we use "asphalt" to mean "asphalt concrete". Also the 3rd paragraph 1st and 2nd sentence seem to contradict each other or at least are confusing.

I do not know enough about British terminology to feel comfortable fixing this.

Apologies if this isn't how most talk page stuff is done, this is my first time using it. JackW2 (talk) 04:51, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

It's fair to say it's confusing because "asphalt" is used in a lot of ways in American English in similar contexts. Asphalt can mean natural asphalt; it can mean refined asphalt, which is also called asphalt cement, asphalt binder, liquid asphalt, etc.; it can also mean asphalt concrete pavements. This can also vary depending upon if you're talking to an engineer or someone who works in road-building versus a member of the general public. I'd agree that the general lay usage of "asphalt" in the U.S. tends to mean "asphalt pavements" (as in the however portion of paragraph 3), but the rest of the paragraph is accurate. I'll see if I can reword some ... Carter (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
It should make clear that in general usage in America that "asphalt" nearly exclusively means asphalt concrete - and that "asphalt concrete" is for the most part unheard of by American laymen, for cause that to laypersons in America "concrete" always means "cement concrete" (in the case of materials anyway). As for bitumen, or the stuff which is properly called asphalt, I've always known it to be called "tar", and *maybe* sometimes "oil tar". And dried/hardened natural asphalt/tar, "asphaltum". Firejuggler86 (talk) 07:22, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
Realise its a year old discussion, but went to the talk page after reading the article. I worked with asphalt for 7 years in the UK, including a year working on the material in a lab, before moving to lecture engineering at University. I have never, ever heard of "Asphalt" as a term for Bitumen.
Asphalt exclusively applies to "a mixture of aggregates, binder and filler" [[6]] and does not by definition even need to include Bitumen. Bitumen is the most common, but you can use other products - the lab i worked on did a test with old vegetable oil for example.
Id recommend renaming this entire article to "Bitumen" and have the article for Asphalt to be whats currently listed as "Asphalt Concrete". I cant speak for the US, but the way id simplify it is Asphalt refers to binder on aggregates, whereas Bitumen is the binder. Garfie489 (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

"Asphaltum oil wells" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Asphaltum oil wells and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 13 § Asphaltum oil wells until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

"Alternatives to asphalt" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Alternatives to asphalt and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 13 § Alternatives to asphalt until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:39, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

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