Talk:Biens mal acquis

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moving away from strict translation[edit]

will attempt to clarify the confusion about the TI lawsuit. I now believe it's essentially the same case brought in different venues, not sure if these constitute appeals, although the last, successful, case was in a court of cassation so it at least likely was. Elinruby (talk) 01:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in case I don't get to it, this needs to be added under France: http://www.france24.com/fr/20160628-biens-mal-acquis-rifaat-oncle-bachar-al-assad-mis-examen-justice-francaise-syrie -- uncle of Bassar al-Assad has been erm, indicted is the equivalent I believe, on essentially the same rationale; that he has about ten times more assets than he can justify based on income/gifts Elinruby (talk) 01:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

hello this is a translation[edit]

To the person who flagged this for style: Sure.

They have different ideas about tone over at fr.wikipedia and beyond wikipedia, even academic texts on scholarly topics do stray from the neutral/objective tone that is more usual in English. Especially on obscure topics like that year that the Ottoman navy commandeered the port of Marseilles in the year 13-whatever. The author will probably have an opinion and a hero in the history he is telling, whether it is Charlemagne or the Bey of something, etc, So ya. The style of the article is not that encyclopedic at the moment and yes, it would be good to correct this.

More importantly though, the French wikipedia article does not seem to give citations for these court cases, or perhaps I missed them. I am going to work on this article tonight and will check on this. But this is an article about litigation and it would be nice to know oh, a docket number would be good. The name of the lower court judges and the "Parquet employee" who repeatedly squashed these suits also, and maybe a quote from him, which surely exists somewhere, about his rationale for doing so. It is not clear to me whether this litigation is one case that went through all the rungs of the appeals process just to get its toe into the lower court, or a series of suits that Transparency International has filed, and if the latter, exactly who the plaintiffs were in each lawsuit. Some of my sources say that Ossébi was a party to the lawsuit and others that he reported on it as a journalist. Either way the Congolese media do seem to take as a given that he died because of the French lawsuit. There also do seem to be parallel legal theories developing here; the cases in Switzerland, Portugal and Spain seem to be pertinent. It would be interesting to know whether the legal systems in those countries established a similar legal precedent in post-Nazi restitution after the collaborating government fell. It would be especially nice to have help with this part as my Spanish is rudimentary and my Portugese non-existent.

Also, to explain what I said about titles: the French legal system is fairly different from the one in the US or the US and for example, this narrative frequently mentions a "juge d'instruction", whose function is somewhat analogous perhaps to the US grand jury in that he investigates allegations and refers cases to the lower courts if he decides that criminal charges are warranted. I have translated this as "examining magistrate", as I recall, because I saw this translation on a British judicial archive. But I am not entirely sure what an examining magistrate does in the UK system; this needs to be checked. Also the English-language versions of some of the French government agencies. If the french government translates "juge d'instruction" differently when it writes in English, then their wording of the title is the official wording and is what the translation should be, whether or not I think that "examining magistrate" is, offhand, not a bad summary of this judge's role in the legal proceedings. Similarly, the sources refer to the "Parquet" which I have translated, loosely, as "prosecutor". But this is only somewhat true -- see comments on "juge d'instruction" above. As I currently understand it, the Parquet is an office of the French Justice Department (or equivalent) which provides the lawyer who presents the prosecution case if charges are brought as a result of the investigation of the "juge d'instruction". A barrister who speaks for the government kinda, maybe? Parquet is not flooring in this instance though; it's a name like the White House or Foggy Bottom or the Elysée. Oh and I am pretty sure that the list of seized assets needs the latest seizure announcements added.

Also, about that standing comment I made. Yes, standing is to some extent an issue, but not the one I thought. I was thinking that the court was saying that TI wasn't Congolese and since the Congolese plaintiff had died, however suspiciously... that is what I thought the issue was. Apparently though, it was about none of the plaintiffs being French (?) The Court of Cassation, where this issue was decided, is definitely the court of last appeal for the French judiciary,

Please feel free to help if you can. Elinruby (talk) 07:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Illicit profits in World War II[edit]

There is a very brief section (3 sentences, currently) on the history of this topic in World War II France. Here are some sources that could be used to expand this:

Verheyde (2008)^[1] – lots of footnotes, and links to other sources
SAEF (2012)^[2]
Archives of Paris^[3]
Ordinance of 18 October 1944^[4]

References - Illicit profits in World War II

^ Verheyde, Philippe. "Guerres et profits en longue durée, une approche politique et morale de l'économie" [Wars and long-term profits, a political and moral approach to the economy]. In Bergère, Marc; Albert, ‎Marie-Claude (eds.). L'épuration économique en France à la Libération [Economic purification in France after the Liberation of France] (in French). Rennes: Presses universitaires de Rennes. pp. 19–31. doi:10.4000/books.pur.4768. ISBN 978-2753-53086-7. Retrieved 1 March 2021. The text [of ordinances] providing for the taxation of profits made during the years 1940-1945 are organized around the much broader notion of épuration. It represents only one facet of it, sometimes hidden and often confused with measures taken against individuals. It is mainly constructed around two ordinances and a few ministerial orders and decrees. The first dated 18 October 1944 'tending to confiscate illicit profits' and the second promulgated on 6 January 1945 'relating to the confiscation of illicit profits' which complements and modifies the previous one ...enacted thirty years earlier. {{cite book}}: |website= ignored (help)
^ Segaud, Marianne; Service des archives économiques et financières (September 2012). "Fiscalité-Conseil supérieur de confiscation des profits illicites" [Taxation: Superior Council for the Confiscation of Illicit Profits]. Ministere de l'economie des finances et des relances | Service des archives économiques et financières (in French). The enemy occupation during the Second World War greatly favored undue enrichment undertaken to the detriment of individuals or the nation. In this regard, several legislative texts concerning the confiscation of illicit profits have been implemented ... The ordinance of October 18, 1944 establishes the notion of illicit profit resulting from trade with the enemy or the violation of economic regulations. It fixes the period concerned as running from 31 December 1939 to 31 December 1944, and provides for various penalties, recovery of funds, and the persons whose profits may be confiscated.
^ "Profits illicites - Archives de Paris" [Illicit profits - Paris Archives]. Paris.fr (in French). Mairie de Paris. The 12 departmental committees for the confiscation of illicit profits in the Seine department, acting under the authority of the Minister of Finance, were charged with the application of the orders of October 18, 1944 and January 6, 1945 prescribing the confiscation of profits from commercial transactions with the enemy, the black market, or any other illicit speculation carried out between September 1, 1939 and the legal date of the cessation of hostilities (i.e., June 1, 1946 pursuant to Law No. 46-991 of 10 May 1946) ... The files from these 12 committees exemplify all areas of economic activity during the period of the Second World War. They constitute a set of more than 19,000 citations concerning individuals or legal entities. Paris addresses account for approximately 75% of all citations, but 25% of the files concern other locations in France and abroad, due to the domiciliation of the goods or persons concerned (see the drop-down list in the country/department section).
^ "Ordonnance du 18 octobre 1944 tendant a confisquer les profits illicites" [Ordinance of October 18, 1944 regarding confiscation of illicit profits]. Legifrance (in French). Paris: Secrétariat général du Gouvernement. 19 October 1944. p. 988-992. ISSN 2270-8987.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathglot (talk • contribs) 23:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Verheyde, Philippe. "Guerres et profits en longue durée, une approche politique et morale de l'économie" [Wars and long-term profits, a political and moral approach to the economy]. In Bergère, Marc; Albert, ‎Marie-Claude (eds.). L'épuration économique en France à la Libération [Economic purification in France after the Liberation of France] (in French). Rennes: Presses universitaires de Rennes. pp. 19–31. doi:10.4000/books.pur.4768. ISBN 978-2753-53086-7. Retrieved 1 March 2021. The text [of ordinances] providing for the taxation of profits made during the years 1940-1945 are organized around the much broader notion of épuration. It represents only one facet of it, sometimes hidden and often confused with measures taken against individuals. It is mainly constructed around two ordinances and a few ministerial orders and decrees. The first dated 18 October 1944 'tending to confiscate illicit profits' and the second promulgated on 6 January 1945 'relating to the confiscation of illicit profits' which complements and modifies the previous one ...enacted thirty years earlier. {{cite book}}: |website= ignored (help)

[SAEF-2012-2] Segaud, Marianne; Service des archives économiques et financières (September 2012). "Fiscalité-Conseil supérieur de confiscation des profits illicites" [Taxation: Superior Council for the Confiscation of Illicit Profits]. Ministere de l'economie des finances et des relances | Service des archives économiques et financières (in French). The enemy occupation during the Second World War greatly favored undue enrichment undertaken to the detriment of individuals or the nation. In this regard, several legislative texts concerning the confiscation of illicit profits have been implemented ... The ordinance of October 18, 1944 establishes the notion of illicit profit resulting from trade with the enemy or the violation of economic regulations. It fixes the period concerned as running from 31 December 1939 to 31 December 1944, and provides for various penalties, recovery of funds, and the persons whose profits may be confiscated.

[Arch-Paris-3] "Profits illicites - Archives de Paris" [Illicit profits - Paris Archives]. Paris.fr (in French). Mairie de Paris. The 12 departmental committees for the confiscation of illicit profits in the Seine department, acting under the authority of the Minister of Finance, were charged with the application of the orders of October 18, 1944 and January 6, 1945 prescribing the confiscation of profits from commercial transactions with the enemy, the black market, or any other illicit speculation carried out between September 1, 1939 and the legal date of the cessation of hostilities (i.e., June 1, 1946 pursuant to Law No. 46-991 of 10 May 1946) ... The files from these 12 committees exemplify all areas of economic activity during the period of the Second World War. They constitute a set of more than 19,000 citations concerning individuals or legal entities. Paris addresses account for approximately 75% of all citations, but 25% of the files concern other locations in France and abroad, due to the domiciliation of the goods or persons concerned (see the drop-down list in the country/department section).

[JORF-1944-10-19-4] "Ordonnance du 18 octobre 1944 tendant a confisquer les profits illicites" [Ordinance of October 18, 1944 regarding confiscation of illicit profits]. Legifrance (in French). Paris: Secrétariat général du Gouvernement. 19 October 1944. p. 988-992. ISSN 2270-8987.

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moving away from strict translation[edit]

hello this is a *translation*[edit]

External links modified[edit]

Illicit profits in World War II[edit]

hello this is a translation[edit]