Talk:Babette March

This article was nominated for deletion on 4 August 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

A fact from Babette March appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 August 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Babette March, the first cover model of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, became a farmer in Canada and is now an artist, entrepreneur and chef in Halfway, Oregon?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/August.

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Notability issues/credibility[edit]

I just don't believe the 25-year-later SI claim that she was the "highest-paid" model of her day. Higher paid than Twiggy? Jean Shrimpton? Penelope Tree? Edie Sedgwick? Veruschka? I've checked various newspaper and magazine databases, and can't find her mentioned in any context outside the SI cover -- and not a single article outside of SI reports anything like this implausible claim. And it's an illogical claim, too -- why would SI hire the highest-paid model of the day for what was then an article of no particular significance, an experiment? Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the Sports Illustrated article doesn't explicitly say she was the highest-paid model when she appeared on their cover. According to this Chicago Tribune piece by Eileen Ford, March didn't even join the Ford Model Agency until about 1965. Zagalejo^^^ 19:09, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bad link?[edit]

The link under "SI Cover Search: 1964 swimsuit" (http://dynamic.si.cnn.com/si_online/covers/issues/1964/0120.html) only shows the cover momentarily before redirecting to a different page. I would suggest substituting that link with this one: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/swimsuit/coverfeatured/7854/index.htm I'd make the change myself but I don't know what, if any, changes need to be made to the citation's verbiage. Woodnwheel (talk) 03:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I just replace the url in the citation. Zagalejo^^^ 04:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed text[edit]

Zagalejo (talk · contribs) removed the following text Eileen Ford describes March as the first elite photographic model to overcome the albatross of having gapped teeth.^[1] In 1966 at the peak of her fame, The New York Times refers a model by the mononym "Babette" while listing contemporaries Lauren Hutton and Colleen Corby.^[2]

^ Ford, Eileen (1970-09-29). "That Impish Look". Chicago Tribune. p. A2. Retrieved 2009-08-10.
^ Carey, Bernadette (1966-12-21). "Modeling Business Looks Good; Fords Recall Agency's 20 Busy Years". The New York Times. Retrieved 2009-08-10.

I am unsure why. I have invited him/her for discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To explain my recent edits:

I removed the line about her having gapped teeth because the source doesn't say she was the first, just that the author (Eileen Ford) thinks she was.

Our role is to summarize expert opinion from reliable sources. What Eileen Ford thinks is the truth about the history of modeling is encyclopedic. We just need to properly cite it as an expert opinion rather than indisputable fact.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:31, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the text did not clearly present it as her opinion. Zagalejo^^^ 06:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How would "Eileen Ford describes March as the first elite photographic model that she recalls having overcome the albatross of having gapped teeth."

That's a bit wordy. I'd prefer, "Eileen Ford describes March as the first elite photographic model that she recalls with gapped teeth."

Added as suggested.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the NYT ref because we don't know for sure if it actually is taking about this person named Babette. We shouldn't just guess that it is.

We are not guessing, we are stating facts in a way that allows the reader to draw personal conclusions. The text does not say it was her, but the logical conclusion is that it was.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:31, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is that really worth mentioning, though? Zagalejo^^^ 06:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are talking about an WP:AFD survivor who needs any type of notability boost we can give her. A probable mention in the NYT is helpful.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:59, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A probable mention adds very little to establish notability. I don't think it was the deciding factor in keeping the article. Zagalejo^^^ 07:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that it adds something whether it be little or not. She is a borderline notability case and an article in the NYT that almost surely is talking about her is a point of notability. There is no reason to remove it. If you want to tweak it please suggest something.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have you done a Google News search for her lately? I just checked; I found a couple of better sources: [1], [2] Zagalejo^^^ 07:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those sources confirm that she was the highest paid model in the world. They are not the New York Times. I still think we should add that back in somehow. Clearly if the NYT was naming top models and she was the top one in the world, the mononym refers to her.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 08:09, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm pretty sure the New York Times is referring to her. But the fact that she was mentioned in a New York Times article just isn't that interesting - especially now that we have more sources to establish her notability. Zagalejo^^^ 08:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you have any questions, let me know. Zagalejo^^^ 06:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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[1] Ford, Eileen (1970-09-29). "That Impish Look". Chicago Tribune. p. A2. Retrieved 2009-08-10.

[2] Carey, Bernadette (1966-12-21). "Modeling Business Looks Good; Fords Recall Agency's 20 Busy Years". The New York Times. Retrieved 2009-08-10.

[1]

[2]