Talk:Atlas Shrugged/Archive 3

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

That so-called "Rebuttal"

[[1]]

The "rebuttal" to the old Whittaker Chambers critique of this novel is a shallow hit piece that consists solely of shrill insults and strawman arguments (kinda like the novel, actually). I know that accusing critics of being evil demons who didn't even read the book is a standard tactic of Randroids, but surely there is a genuine positive review of the book that can be linked to, instead..

Here's my summary of the so-called "rebuttal" article (strangly called a "review"):
Paragraph 1: "NRO publishes some authors that I like. Also, they publish authors I don't like."
Paragraph 2: "They published an old article I don't like. That makes them kinda evil."
Paragraph 3: "Chambers misspelled some of the crazy unpronouncible names of characters in the novel."
Paragraph 4: "That means that he didn't read it."
Paragraph 5: "Chambers probably disagrees with Rand's philosophies."
Paragraph 6: "Therefore, he is stupid. Just like Osama bin Laden."
Paragraph 7: "Like bin Laden, Chambers is a fundy who wants to make America a theocracy."
Paragraph 8: "Since Chambers didn't like this book, he obviously hates freedom."

Seriously, guys. This link is bad, even by Wikipedia standards. I'd remove it, but I don't have an account and everything by IPs gets auto-reverted, these days. Anyways, peace out.

74.195.66.147 (talk)

The counter-review is relevant whether you think it is a quality piece of writing or not, and whether you believe it is proper for fans of Ayn Rand ("Randroids") to write that sort of thing or not, etc. If you would like to publish your own criticism of that review and how fans of Ayn Rand deal with bad reviews, I suggest creating a blog. D prime (talk) 18:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Jenkins review

I've eliminated the Jenkins review piece, as it contains several factual errors, such as repeating the rumor that Rand got her name from her typewriter. LaszloWalrus 10:34, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

There were no errors in the parts cited, and you have no proof there were errors to begin with. This is just a POV deletion as usual, which I am reverting. Try coming up with a strong argument for once. -- LGagnon 13:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If he stated that there are facutal errors, you can not respond with "This is just a POV deletion as usual". If LaszloWalrus can come up with more than just the typewriter error, then I say we take a hard look at letting the review stay. -- Emperorcezar

Huffington and Bloom

I have eliminated the Huffington's criticism; it is a passing comment on a relatively minor aspect of the novel. CEO's don't act like the characters in Atlas Shrugged? Peers of England don't act like Gwynplaine in The Man Who Laughs either. The elimination of the Harold Bloom comment seems to be a concerted effort to eliminate anything at all flattering to Atlas Shrugged. Bloom is probably the most respected literary critic today, so this seems strange. LaszloWalrus 11:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Bloom's statement was not cited. An we've been over Huffington's argument already, and it stays. You argument against her is nothing new, so it is not going to change things. -- LGagnon 00:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

We went over the Huffington article and you were unable to provide any good reason why it should stay. —Centrx→talk • 01:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I gave plenty of good reasons. -- LGagnon 02:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out to Neverborn that the source was not there when I deleted the Bloom line. If a source was given, it wouldn't have been deleted. -- LGagnon 03:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

This was not Rand's position

This line is not correct: "Rand herself wrote that the separation of fiction and serious philosophical ideas is absurd, because art is the representation of philosophical judgments." This was simply not Rand's position. Art according to Rand, did have SOME philosophical conetent, but not necessarily "serious philosophical ideas." LaszloWalrus 03:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Rand stated that art was "- a selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgements." I believe this means that art was a representation of the artist's philosophy and his/her view on the issue depicted.75.121.36.237 (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Arbiter099

Jewish

The last time I added the fact she was Jewish to this article, a user reverted with this statement, "{she didn't identify as Jewish and even swiched to a non-"Jewish-sounding" name)"

I changed it back, indicating that she was, in fact, a Jew. The way the article read before (Russian-born writer) one might be under the impression that she was of Russian blood. But clearly, any researcher on this subject knows that she was Jewish and many of her friends were Jewish as well. I added the 'jew factor' in because I did not want any misunderstandings in the article, and I think we should celebrate her diversity.

This user's only other edit today was an anti-semitic personal attack on the Userpage of User:Khoikhoi which has been reverted. I am reverting this edit as well. --Doc Tropics 03:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

actually, she may have been jewish born (she was) but she was an athiest. And to this comment: "and I think we should celebrate her diversity." would have offended her. I think anyone that has read any of her work, like her or not would agree with that.

In various articles throughout wiki, there are insertions of who is a jew, as though it's of some note-worthy importance. Perhaps we should be outlining some other imprtant factors, like who is a white person of french ancestry and agnostic in beliefs. we should also note his/her shoe sizes and bady fat percentages. What a rediculous addition to an article. (Mythos721 18:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC))

South Park

Centrix recently deleted a line about a South Park episode that mentions AS. If we can add a bit more info about it, I think it would be ok to have it in the article. -- LGagnon 22:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Modern Library paragraph censored

I'm not entirely against the changes made to the Modern Library section, but one line didn't need to be removed. The line in which Ray Jenkins claims that "Rand's unwillingness to cut the size of the book was a sign of megalomania" was sourced, yet it deleted without explaination. -- LGagnon 23:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That quote is more about Ayn Rand than about Atlas Shrugged. The poll is directly relevant and Jenkins gives one possible explanation of it ("great American cult")—though even that is a little attenuated—and the other commentary about her works being deplored by critics and the length of the speech is directly related to the book. Directly relevant information would be that the book is long and that she refused to cut it down, with critics saying it is loose and could have been refined. The criticism is already too loosely connected as it is; it is turning into a list of every newspaper article, etc. that has ever been published about the book. —Centrx→talk • 23:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

i honestly think that this poll need not be included at all. i grant, it is very telling of the nature of Ayn Rand fandom, but its equally telling of the idiocy of the creators of this so-called "ranking," or at least of their desire to ensure that the readers' poll would be completely uncreditable compared to the critics' one. if one follows the link and reads their poll, one will see what i mean if one has not already. perhaps i am just pissed to see that her "cultists" are practically out-competed by that quack Hubbard's, and i also admit that i am having trouble finding a better example of how rabidly loyal objectivists can be (which is a major piece of information as concerns the book itself, since it was the original inspiration for that loyalty), but i still think that this poll contains too much meaninglessness and is too bad an example of statistical analysis to be included here. especially in the praise section ... it could have been only 50 objectivists and 50 scientologists who accomplished all of that, and it probably took thousands of Harper Lee fans to squeeze To Kill a Mockingbird in there! What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 16:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

for a suggestion as to an evidentiary poll that could be included in place of this one, see the "library of congress" section below . . . What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 04:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

News on the movie

Here's some info for the movie section: [2]

With this much info, is it already time to to grant it its own article? - Stormwatch 02:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if that counts as a reliable source; we'd be able to find more sources with this info if it was right. -- LGagnon 03:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's more info: [3], [4] - Stormwatch 18:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Rethinking the Huffington quote

I read the above discussion about Huffington's criticism, and I'm having a hard time understanding why it's the anti-Rand people who want to keep it in. The Huffington quote basically reveals she didn't actually read past about chapter two. Therefore, even with the caveat that she's wrong in that statement, it basically gives the impression that critics of Atlas Shrugged have to resort to uninformed, and erroneous statements in order to find something wrong with it. When that is listed as a prominent criticism, it makes the reader wonder if there even is a non-clueless criticism of the book. If I were trying to put Rand in the best light possible, I would probably want to include only the most ridiculous criticisms, and this one qualifies. So, if your goal is perhaps to make sure the anti-Rand views are best expressed, I really have to question if that goal is achieved by inclusion of Huffington's criticism. MrVoluntarist 14:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that every time a Randist criticizes their critics they always claim that the critic is stupid or didn't read the book? Can't you actually refute the argument instead of resorting to illogical ad hominem attacks? If Randism is logical, please try to give an actual logical rebuttal. -- LGagnon 15:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Assuming you're being serious, the rebuttal is given in the article: Atlas Shrugged has numerous CEO's who demanded government intervention in their favor, so it makes no sense to claim that AS portrays CEO's in general as anti-government intervention. It portrays anti-intervention CEO's as good, and pro-intervention CEO's as bad. Again, if I were trying to promote Rand, I would *love* to include the Huffington to quote in order or portray all criticism as stemming merely from being misinformed. What I don't understand is why you want critics to look stupid. If you're okay with that, so am I. MrVoluntarist 16:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Huffington is speaking about CEOs in general and the Enron executives in particular and comparing them to Rand's ideal businessman; that's not to say Huffington is unaware that not every businessman in AS meets Rand's ideal. What sounds ignorant in that paragraph is the attempted refutation, "However, Rand does show examples of businessmen who act in such a manner i.e. Orren Boyle, Jim Taggart", since Huffington never claimed Rand didn't show such examples. It's clear Boyle and Taggart aren't Rand's ideal businessman, so they're irrelevant to Huffington's comments. That said, however, I don't know how appropriate a discussion of Huffington's article is in the "Critical reception" section, since she isn't actually criticizing AS in it, she's criticizing American businessmen for not living up to the Randian ideal. At worst, she's indirectly criticizing the Randian ideal for being unrealistic, but she doesn't come out and say that. I'm also not convinced the South Park reference belongs in "Critical reception", since it's really just a throw-away joke that is almost certainly more about the length and "heavy slogging" of the book than its philosophical content: South Park Republicanism is, after all, very close to Randian Objectivism, with perhaps a little less misanthropy. User:Angr 17:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Then shouldn't we remove the Huffington bit? I don't see how it's notable as criticism of the AS. I read the whole piece and I still don't see it. It's not that I want to suppress criticism. I'm worried about the soft bias of putting in only the weakest or most tangential criticisms so as to make it appear no one has serious arguments against it. MrVoluntarist 20:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You do know that you could add more criticisms to the section yourself. I know they are hard to find (Rand, being merely a romance novelist with a implicitly fascist attitude, doesn't get that many reviews from respectable reviewers), but you could put the effort into it yourself rather than tell the rest of us to look up more content for you. -- LGagnon 05:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Good thing I didn't, that would have sucked. MrVoluntarist 16:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality of Criticism Section

All of the entries here are cited and fairly reported, reasonable readers are aware that criticism is pov by definition. --Son of Somebody 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If they are cited and fairly reported, then their placement is probably, but not necessarily, consistent with WP:NPOV. The issue isn't about whether the criticism itself violates WP:NPOV, but whether its placement does. And good criticism, by the way, is not necessarily in violation of WP:NPOV. One can fairly and objectively criticize a movie, Hitler, Nixon, a philosophy... anything. Anyway, I reverted the tag because the comment only cited the "criticism" card - as if a criticism section is not subject to the rules of WP:NPOV. That's false. At the same time, anyone who puts the tag in there, should explain the reasons for doing so. --Serge 00:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Many works of art on Wikipedia have sections dealing with critical reception, surely this work of literature is important enough that it also merits such a section. Or perhaps none of the others merit a section, as even the best of them violates WP:NPOV. This section is not presented in a manner that implies that the Wiki authors are inserting their personal views. In any event, this tag was not explained and this is the first discussion about it. If criticism sections are subject to WP:NPOV, someone has a lot of deleting to do.--Son of Somebody 01:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Modern Library poll said to be "notorious"?Agent Cooper 16:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed some of the content in the criticism section. Having contextless opinions like "people read the novel for the fornicating bits" or the novel reads like "a novelization of Mein Kampf by Barbara Cartland" is pointless. It is akin to saying "in the opinion of {some reviewer} Atlas Shrugged sucks." I have left the more substansive reviews, positive or negative, that actually say something about the novel (right or wrong). Similarly, the South Park anecdote belongs at most to a trivia section, not a criticism section. LaszloWalrus 08:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't get to choose who reviews the book. Once again, you've made a POV edit, serving no purpose other than to censor Rand's critics. It would help a lot more if you could make some form of edit that wasn't based in bias. Try adding something constructive, something that doesn't violating any policy; for once we might not have to revert you. -- LGagnon 15:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

LGagnon, I'm not sure you understand how the criticism section looks to an outsider. Let's say I'm neutral. Let's say I just read the book. Then I come to Wikipedia to look for the criticisms. Then I see:

Reviewer X said it's like Mein Kampf.

Reviewer Y said people like to read the dirty parts.

Reviewer Z said a South Park episode joked about the length.

Reviewer Z1 said that a lot of people are like the jerks in the book.

What conclusion would I draw? Most people, seeing those criticisms dominate the criticism section, would think, "Hey, no one can offer a really substantial criticism. Maybe no one has any substantive objection to the book's theme. Maybe Rand is on to something." That's why I have a hard time understanding why people who don't like AS want those criticisms in. It's like they want to prod people into having a high opinion of it. Understand where I'm coming from? MrVoluntarist 17:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That's an utterly illogical conclusion. Rand might be on to something if you don't agree with the critics? There are a lot of bad criticisms of the nazis, but they aren't on to something, and nobody is going to make that assumption about them. Sorry, but I don't understand where you're coming from, because you aren't using logic to explain your opinion.

If you have a problem with the criticisms, that's tough. We're supposed to represent all major opinions, not just those that are Randist-approved. I'll admit we don't have enough reviews, but then again even the person who complains loudest about this (you) hasn't added more. I'm sorry but you are not going to change the article around just by throwing around weak illogical rhetoric for the sake of deleting criticisms of Rand's work. -- LGagnon 18:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyone with a serious response? MrVoluntarist 19:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

You are not going to get a serious response if you don't have a serious argument. You'll get one as soon as you start using logic in your arguments. -- LGagnon 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I did. Again, anyone with a serious response, who wants to post in good faith? MrVoluntarist 23:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you understand me. I'm not making a bad faith claim; I'm simply stating the fact that your "argument" lacks logic, and thus does not warrant a response until you can create a logical argument. There will be no point in anyone answering your "argument" until you can present a real argument. Just come up with something that follows actual logic and then you can have your response. -- LGagnon 00:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No, I'll give a serious response. Reading these talk pages, it's becoming difficult to assume good faith when it comes to LGagnon, and I do think some real criticisms (surely they exist?) need to replace the hodge-podge of amatuerish research that is in the article now. I don't have the time to hunt them down now, and may not ever, so in the meantime they should probably stay (after all, Wikipolicy is to use verified sources, not simply subjectively "high quality" sources). 161.225.129.111 20:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you win. I'll play your game. In response to what you said (your statements in italics):

Rand might be on to something if you don't agree with the critics?

No. Had you read what I posted, you would have noticed that the claim was that the article induces the reader to think "if the best criticisms of the book only cover superficial issues, maybe no one has a substantive objection, and thus, Rand's at least right about something".

If you have a problem with the criticisms, that's tough. We're supposed to represent all major opinions, not just those that are Randist-approved.

Had you read what I posted, you would have noticed that a criticism not being "Randist-approved" was not the basis for my questioning its presence in the article. You would have instead noticed that my point was that, far from showing reasons to doubt the arguments advanced by the book, it would reinforce people's support of it -- make them more supportive of Rand's beliefs -- by making it look like critics are only capable of superficial responses that dodge the main point. You would have noticed my warning you that Rand would have gladly approved of these "criticisms" dominating article, and you would have realized how foolish it would sound to act like I was trying to get only Rand-approved criticisms.

I'll admit we don't have enough reviews, but then again even the person who complains loudest about this (you) hasn't added more.

Yes, because I admit that the scholarly debates over the merit of AS is not my area of expertise and my time would be better spent working on articles on topics I'm already familiar with.

I'm sorry but you are not going to change the article around just by throwing around weak illogical rhetoric for the sake of deleting criticisms of Rand's work.

See above on the "illogical rhetoric" bit. I would also like to introduce you to the fact that a problem can only be solved by first identifying that it exists, and that my input was indeed a vital step in remedying a deficiency in this article.
Now that I have carefully explained my position for a third time, I'm sure that you won't accidentally misinterpret it in the future in a way that appears to be trolling but I can't assume is trolling because I am assuming good faith in all Wikipedians, against all evidence ot the contrary. MrVoluntarist 05:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I won't debate that literature isn't your area of expertise, but that shouldn't hold you off from simple research. Even if all you did was post a few links to reviews on this talk page, you'd still have put more effort into improving the criticism section than you have done with simply complaining about it. It doesn't take a college degree to look up reviews.

And again, you are simply giving your opinion that these reviews are superficial. There are some very well detailed ones (Huffington, for instance, gave an analysis quite similar to academic papers I've read) which you are calling superficial without giving any real analysis of their work to prove your point. Instead, you set up a strawman by minimizing their claims to something poorly thought out (i.e. reducing Huffington's analysis to "a lot of people are like the jerks in the book" rather than taking on her actual analysis). Your claims have simply come off as fallicious opinion, not logical fact, and thus I still don't see a need to remove these criticisms. -- LGagnon 16:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What academic papers are Huffington's similar to? Come on, state it. Give me some links, some cites. Don't just gripe here, that's not productive. It doesn't take a college degree to look this stuff up, let's stop being lazy and do some serious work to improve the article. There's no moaning on Wikipedia, you have the power to edit. I don't want to hear unsubstantiated claims about imaginary academic papers with no real meat behind your analysis. You're just making strawman attacks, we don't have time for it. Let's do some real work, let's see some genuine input. You haven't done anything at all to improve the article except allude to some mysterious unnamed articles out there with some unnamed similarity to Huffington. Why? MrVoluntarist 17:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You've resorted to personal attacks now? This does nothing to improve your argument. I shouldn't have to cite academic papers for your sake; if you've seen an academic literary analysis before, you'd recognize what I'm talking about. You can look that up yourself. -- LGagnon 17:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not make any personal attacks unless you consider carbon copies of your statements to be personal attacks. I do not tolerate "it's out there somewhere". I do not like your insinuation that I haven't seen academic literary criticism. That is a personal attack and it is not tolerated on Wikipedia. I will not look anything up for you. You made the claim. Let's see the proof. We don't "do" unsubstantiated claims here. MrVoluntarist 17:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You made mocking variants of my statements which were changed into personal attacks to make another strawman against me. And I did not say you haven't seen academic criticism; I said if you've seen it (that is, I don't know if you have or not) you would recognize it. And if you have seen it before, then I shouldn't have to show you what it looks like; you would recognize it by now without asking me to prove it.

My claim is substantiated; you, on the other hand, haven't given a substantial claim to argue your point, as you simply assume that your strawmen prove that the criticisms are wrong. You haven't even begun to give a logical argument, so I don't see why I need to further prove you wrong. -- LGagnon 17:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I see no substantiation for any of your claims whatsoever. All I see is hand-waving about some mythical literary criticism (whic for some reason references modern business practices unlike any other literary criticism) that you haven't once substantiated despite being asked again and again. That's not how we roll here. Time's running out, and I'm going to need to see your sources soon.

Btw, I'm sorry if you don't like being treated how you treat others. MrVoluntarist 18:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I mean literary criticism in general. It's pretty standard for one to compare a piece of literature to contemporary events, as the literature often reflects them in one way or another. I shouldn't have to give you an example of standard criticism if you claim to have seen it already.

And again, you haven't even given a logical argument. All you do is use a strawman to back your opinion, rather than giving a real argument. It doesn't matter whether I give a source or not; you don't even have an argument to argue against yet, and until you create an argument that is not based in logical fallacy you won't have an argument. I've already won this debate by default because your only argument is a strawman. -- LGagnon 19:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

And there we have it. All along, you're thinking in terms of "how do I out-debate this guy? How do I win?" You should be thinking in terms of "how do I discover what belongs in this article?" This is concrete proof I shouldn't regard your input as serious. I'll continue this with other respondants whom I can engage in serious discussion. MrVoluntarist 20:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

One more thing, in case anyone's wondering: I have made zero logical fallacies. Every time you have responded to me, you have misquoted my argument, like when I said the criticisms make AS look good, and then you took that as a claim that they weren't randist-approved. Ironic you should complain about strawmen. Also, you claimed I trivialized Huffington's piece without saying what relevant point I left out. (Oops.) We're well beyond the point where I can take you seriously, given your behavior on the objectivism page and here. At the very least, I want a second opinion from someone who won't browbeat me. MrVoluntarist 20:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I expect I'll be stepping on some toes by jumping in on this issue but hopefully I can offer a fresh perspective on a couple of issues. I'm going to leave the more difficult parts for you guys to continue to fight over, but two of the disputed pieces seem very simple to me. First, the quote by Russell Kirk is a complaint about the readers of atlas shrugged and not the book itself. It seems to me that even if we assume it's true, Ayn Rand herself might notice it and make the same complaint, that doesn't mean she'd be complaining about her own novel. Secondly about the southpark reference; I have no qualms with it being in the article, but to consider it a critical commentary seems strange. Southpark is rife with nonsequitors, sarcasm and absurdities. Even if it weren't the writers of southpark are hardly a reliable source of literary insight. And as mentioned above, it's not even clear that the writers were trying to comment on it's content; it seems possible if not likely that a person just overcoming illiteracy would simply be afraid to reread a book with large words and small text.Vicarious 06:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of muddying the waters, I would think that those friendly to Objectivism would want to have all these silly quotes in, because they are almost all by people with a political agenda and come off as ideological. It would be far more damaging if someone could find a reputable literary critic who has something negative to say about the work as literature. Of course you can't, because you can barely find a reputable literary critic who has anything to say about it at all. In fact, the only literary analysis I've been able to find at all in a normal venue without a political agenda classifies Rand's fiction as adolescent-interest cult fiction, and puts it in the not too shabby company of such writers as Hermann Hesse. BTW, I think that there should be a category tag "Cult Fiction" but I'm too newbie to know how to do it. Lastly, I think I speak for all sane people everywhere in asking that the edit warring just stop. Where does it get anyone? Will it degenerate into a discussion of who started it? Feh!Agent Cooper 22:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"At the risk of muddying the waters, I would think that those friendly to Objectivism would want to have all these silly quotes in, because they are almost all by people with a political agenda and come off as ideological. " THANK YOU! That's (almost) what I've been saying ALL ALONG! By packing the criticism section with criticisms of trivial matters or which appear to be irrelevant to the boo, you get people to wonder whether there are any serious criticisms at all. LGagnon, take note. Or is Cooper a "Randist" now? MrVoluntarist 23:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The quote by Russell Kirk was famous by itself, and he wasn't a lightweight web critic.--Son of Somebody 12:55, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If the president said "I have child pornography hidden underneath my copy of atlas shrugged" the comment would be famous, but it wouldn't be a "critical review". If this quote is in fact famous then I have no complaints about it being in the article, but when the quote makes no reference to the quality of the book (only its readers), it doesn't make sense put it in the 'critical reception' section. Vicarious 23:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

If the president said "I read Atlas Shrugged for the fornicating bits", do you think it would be worthy of inclusion?--Son of Somebody 07:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely yes. However, it would still not belong in "critical reception" section, that section is what critics think of the book. Vicarious 20:42, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, then what if an influential conservative intellectual's opinion was that the book lacked literary merit, its philosophical ideas were poorly developed, and that the "romantic" portions of the book were the only parts worth reading? And what if he used a one-liner to summarize that opinion? The goal of quoting this opinion in a section clearly labelled "Critical reception" is the exposition of notable critiques. The goal of removing it is the repression of ideas found offensive. If one believes the section weighs against the book, he or she should spend some energy finding positive reviews and opinions of the book to counter, rather than censoring sourced quotes by notable experts.--Son of Somebody 22:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I would certainly agree that the criticism section seems tilted towards Rand, but for a critic to say 'I just read it for the naughty bits' would be rather childish and unhelpful, and not the kind of comment I'd expect to see in an encyclopedia. Saying 'the book lacked literary merit, its philosophical ideas were poorly developed, and that the "romantic" portions of the book were the only parts worth reading', on the other hand, at least provides some reasoning for their criticism and could be perfectly legitimate. One of the problems as I see it is that many of the people who strongly criticise the book are actually responding to Rand's politics, and not to the book as a book: though obviously with such a politicised book it's somewhat hard to seperate the two. Mark Grant 23:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It is impossible to separate the two. The reason the "naughty bits" quote is important is because it says something about the critic's agenda and the prevailing morals of the time of the book's release. Any reasonable reader will distinguish for themselves whether the quote should be taken seriously. Why not give them that chance?--Son of Somebody 02:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but to me it seems unencyclopedic and, frankly, quite childish. As far as I can see the quote does nothing to further a critical discussion of the book and, in my experience, is also plainly wrong: I've never met anyone who read Rand's books for the 'naughty bits'. I would agree, though, that the article should be primarily about 'Atlas Shrugged' as a book, not as a political philosophy: the problem, as I mentioned below, is that it's a lousy book once you take out the philosophy. I also noticed that someone renamed 'Critical reception' to 'Reception' apparently to justify including that quote, which seems equally childish to me. I'm sure there are much better ways to improve the article than with silly quotes and word games. Mark Grant 02:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Let's restore "Critical" and delete all the content. There was no critical reception. Agent Cooper 00:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If we did so, we'd have no criticism of a very controversial novel, and thus be in violation of WP:NPOV. That content stays because it's needed; otherwise, this article fails to uphold Wikipedia's top policy. -- LGagnon 02:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Entre nous--I was being facetious. Agent Cooper 04:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought so, but I wanted to make sure the Randists didn't go ahead and act on it. -- LGagnon 18:25, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

philosopher

LGagnon may disagree strongly with Objectivism, but for him to make ridiculous POV edits that eliminate any mention of Ayn Rand as a philosopher is simply outrageous. Perhaps he should check sources such as Britannica that explicitly refer to her as a philosopher. I hate the music of modern bands, but I'm not going to go to their articles and eliminate any statement referring to them as "music bands." Adam T.

I don't know how long you've been at Wikipedia, but it's been proven that Britannica is not a completely reliable source, even failing to be as reliable as Wikipedia itself. Likewise, Britannica is not a more reliable source than academia (especially given the fact that Wikipedia can outdo them), and few sources are more reliable than academia. Thus, I don't see how Britannica's opinion beats out the collective opinion of the most important source of knowledge in the world. -- LGagnon 19:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Britannica being unreliable" is a gross oversimplification, and I have a hard time knowing how you could make that statement without knowing it. Ditto for it being "more reliable" than "academia" (from whence it draws, whatever that means). Adam, don't feel obligated to give credence to what LGagnon says here. He's had a long, troubled history of antagonizing people, esp. admins. MrVoluntarist 19:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have proof for this argument? There have been studies that show that even Wikipedia is more reliable than Britannica, and we all know Wikipedia is still a work in progress. That's a fact that you have yet to disprove.

And cut the personal attacks. You may be allowed to do whatever you want by the nuisance-coddling admins, but at the very least you should try to show some civility. -- LGagnon 19:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That study was erroneous (but try to tell a meme that) and even if it wasn't, it would be completely beside the point, because it didn't compare Britannica's accuracy to any other respected encyclopedias. Are we to discount all encyclopedias as respected authorities because they might (and do) contain some small amount of factual or typographical errors? I was unaware that omniscience was humanly attainable. Unigolyn 09:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't much like any of this discussion on either side. One can characterize any novel that has ideas in it as "philosophical" or "ideological" depending upon one's biases, and certain perfectly respectable literary figures will inspire these kinds of reactions (Dostoevski, for example, whose ideas strike an awful lot of people as both nasty in content and poorly argued but beautifully presented). This should not be a pro-Objectivist/anti-Objectivist issue. I would urge you all to regard whatever authority "academia" has in this context, in this article, to be regarding how to approach AS as literature, not as philosophy. I've already suggested that there is so little discussion of that sort that there's not much one can say; one literary critic (as opposed to political columnist/activist) characterized it as "adolescent reader cult fiction" which seems much more apt to me than "dangerous right-wing ideologue" or "profound philosophical thinker" if we're talking about the fiction. If a Comp Lit department had a class on Dostoevski, no one would get terribly agitated if Bros K was referred to as "a philosophical novel" and I really doubt that Saul Kripke would pick up the phone and complain about trademark infringment. This is just the wrong way to think about this whole issue. I wish both sides would climb down and listen to reason.Agent Cooper 22:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that Rand is a horribly bad writer: I don't think anyone would sit through a thousand-page Rand novel were it not for the philosophy. Personally I'd say 'Atlas Shrugged' deserves a place in the hundred most important novels of the 20th century, but as a novel, rather than fictionalised philosophy, it's just awful... and I think that discrepancy is where a large part of the problem with the article stems from. Mark Grant 00:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok two more copperheads. I don't mean to pick on you LGannon but here you're claiming that Britanica is less accurate than Wiki (yes that little study was a real boost for wiki, whatever) and not two bits later you are complaining that wiki does'nt have a single unbiased artical on Rand or any of her works. The thing with Brittanica is that if they get something wrong and remove it it stays removed. I find it unlikely that in the course of Brittanica having been out there and peer reveiwed by people a lot more scholarly than you or I they could have maintained such an error for half a century.

Ongoing Problems

I'm getting testy...

"Atlas Shrugged is a novel by Russian-born writer and philosopher Ayn Rand,"

This is fine. She called herself a philosopher for twenty years, and there have been 2-3 books by academic philosophers about her as a philosopher (Chris Sciabarra, Tara Smith and the collection of essays for Univ. Illinois Press). Introduction to the Objectivist Epistemology may be wrong, it may even be crap, but if so, it is philosophical crap. Philosopher is not necessarily a term of endearment.

"It was Rand's last work of fiction before concentrating her writings exclusively on philosophy."

I think this should read "exclusively on philosophy, politics and cultural criticism." Essays on patent and copyright law would ordinarily be characterized as politics. Essays on Apollo 11 and Marilyn Monroe would ordinarily be classified as cultural criticism.

"It is a highly philosophical"

as opposed to lowly philosophical? This is just junk writing. It's so-o-o-o-o philosophical. Let it go.

"and allegorical story"

Strictly speaking, no, it’s not really allegory at all. An allegory is where the lion stands for courage, the scarecrow stands for intelligence, etc. It is not an allegory when the corrupt business man stands for corrupt businessmen. It's about what it's about, not something else. That not only tallies with Rand's self-understanding, but standard literary nomenclature. So we can let the whole sentence go, since it says nothing, and says it badly.

"that deals with themes of Rand's own Objectivism"

This is anachronistic. Rand did not announce herself as a philosopher nor use the expression "Objectivism" until after the novel was published. One could more accurately describe "Objectivism" as the distillation and extension of ideas explored in Atlas Shrugged. According to her journals, this began as a literary scenario. Her one attempt at a philosophical essay ("Moral Basis of Individualism") that predates it went unpublished.

"though she was not yet known as a philosopher when it was written."

Nor did she refer to herself in those terms publicly at that time or previously. The whole sentence has to be revised. See above.

"Atlas Shrugged is an extremely political book."

Extremely? This is junk writing. It's like totally not cool to like totally refer to her like politics as like extremely political. Apart from being just awful writing, it also has unconscious connotations, by causing the mind to glide the term "extremism." Something like "laden with political content" or even "heavily politicized" is better, though the latter is probably POV-problematic.

"In rejecting the traditional Christian altruistic moral code, Rand also rejects the sexual code that, in her view, is a logical implication of altruism."

Doesn’t she deliberately characterize this as broader than Christianity, and deliberately avoid naming Christianity explicitly? In fact, my recollection is that the only characters who are meant to be associated with anything specifically religious are linked to unnamed generic Asian thought. And isn't it merely Rand's opinion that real-world Christianity is as she characterizes this unlabeled code (in a spirit of 'if the shoe fits')? If you think it through, this is subtle POV. Norman O. Brown said that Christianity is all about ecstatic body affirmation. He was a loon of course, but are we supposed to take sides here?

I'm reluctant to just start fixing things in light of the edit-warring going on, since I don't want to waste my time sending data into the void, but if there are no objections to my comments above, after a week or so, I'll make changes reflecting them. Agent Cooper 23:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

BE BOLD, edit these things. It takes more time complaining and putting up warning banners than actually fixing the article. You obviously know what needs to be done... Somerset219 04:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you've been at this article long enough. Being bold here gets you harassment from pro-Rand editors who are never stopped by the admins. Being bold causes admins to blame you when another editor harasses you. Being bold gets nothing done when biased editors outnumber you and are able to de facto nullify the NPOV rule.

Welcome to the Ayn Rand section of Wikipedia, Wikipedia's Bizarro World. -- LGagnon 04:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

YIPES! I'm just giving the advice I use, fuck the admins! Somerset219 05:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't take that the wrong way; I don't mean any offense to you. It's just that the Rand-related articles are Wikipedia's biggest embarassment. The admins don't - and won't - come here to stop the bias from going on, and when you complain about it they blame you. This has all got me to suspect that Jimbo is keeping the admins from balancing this article out to help promote the ideology he belongs to. Honestly, how many articles on Wikipedia have been biased and stayed biased throughout the entire existence of Wikipedia? -- LGagnon 05:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This is about tag cleanup. As all of the tags are more than a year old, there is no current discussion relating to them, and there is a great deal of editing done since the tags were placed, or in some cases it's clear there is a consensus, they will be removed. This is not a judgement of content. If there is cause to re-tag, then that of course may be done, with the necessary posting of a discussion as to why, and what improvements could be made. This is only an effort to clean out old tags, and permit them to be updated with current issues if warranted.Jjdon (talk) 22:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"How long was it?"

[For those who are under 50, that's an allusion to Johnny Carson]. Well, I see that others started the process and I dived in too. It looks better. I was wondering what people thought about the "longest book" thing. First of all, I think the long books page is a really silly idea; books that run tens of thousands of pages are noteworthy, but I really don't think that novels in the thousand page range are that unusual--if we could drum them all up and it turned out there were hundreds of them, would that mean that there were hundreds of "among the longest book ever written"? There is a factual dimension to this: most people who read or try to read the book are struck by its length, and some find it just too long. But I'm not sure what the point of this comment is. I think that it is meaningful to mention its page count (1168 in the hardcover first edition) so that people can respond to that, but this sentence almost makes it sound like it's an achievement or a crime, and it's really neither here nor there (without more--it is a very common private reponse that it is way too long, but there's no way to articulate that here). Agent Cooper 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's both useful and arbitrary. It's arbitrary in that it doesn't really have a unique size; my copy of Don DeLillo's "Underworld" is just as big, and plenty of books by Neal Stephenson and Stephen King fit in that size range as well. On the other hand, AS's size is something that it is often criticized for, as even diehard fans find it to be bloated. I think the "longest books" statement should go, as it's both poorly researched and potently a peacock statement. However, the article should mention something about the problem people have with its size (which I think it does already). -- LGagnon 16:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Check my attempt and tell me if this is better--I thought a reference to the length made more sense in the "magnum opus" sentence. Agent Cooper 17:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I am reminded of the apocryphal Frost note, "Please excuse the length of this letter...I didn't have time to write a short one...." BuenSabor 20:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Literary elements going completely undiscussed in article on work of literature

For an article on a piece of fiction, there's a near complete absence of any discussion of imagery, symbolism or style. Is this because any material, since it wouldn't be sourceable beyond AS itself, would constitute "original research"? Or is it because no one has the odd combination of knowledge and skill to pull it off? I was thinking about this in connection with the recurring "Atlantis" trope (which was inspired by Isabel Paterson's characterization of America as Atlantis in God of the Machine--about 95% of Rand's thought is the natural outgrowth of a three-way collision between Nietzsche, Dostoevski and Isabel Paterson--though Anthem also owes a huge debt to Zamyatin). Can anything be done about this, or is it off-limits? It wouldn't seem to be, since discussion of plot and character seems to be in a sense original research as well. Also, Rand wrote quite a bit about her artistic intentions (in Romantic Manifesto), which is relevant here as well (she talks about her attempt to recreate certain elements of Dostoevski's technique, for example, which would seem very relevant to discussing the novel as novel, why it has the peculiar qualities it does, given her Russian background and conscious intentions--in a sense, AS is meant to be a sort of American The Possessed, and would seem a lot less odd if it had a Russian sounding author's name and a Russian setting). Since I am pushing the line that AS is just another book with recognizable features if one classifies it as adolescent-interest cult fiction, written by a Russian-American author influenced by the 19th century Russian novel, it would be nice if there was some trace of understanding of how this peculiar confection works, rather than just paean and denunciation. A big part of the problematic reception of this work is that there was no reception community in place for any sort of 19th century Russian novel about what's wrong with the New Deal! How could there be? The very idea is bizarre. [Note: before anyone jumps all over me about the tag "cult fiction" I should stress that this term has no relationship to the "cult accusation" issue--it means a literary work that plays a disproportionate role in its reader's literary experience, a "beloved" book, like Dune or Lord of the Rings. That characterization seems to me exactly right.] Agent Cooper 17:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty hard thing to get done. While the article should contain literary analysis, academia doesn't really care enough about Rand to analyze her work. Thus, we don't really have anything to work with. I'd assume it'd be the same way with L Ron Hubbard or any other author who scared away academia with cult psychobabble and lawsuit threats.

As someone who does a lot of work with an academic literary department, I don't really see any chance that Rand would get serious coverage by academia in the future. Honestly, her work reads like pulp romance novels and leans very heavily into Mein Kampf/The Turner Diaries territory. Stuff like that will at the very least slow academia's acceptance of her down, if not stop it from ever happening.

Still, we could use info from reviews and whatever Rand had to say about her work. I'm reluctant to let her have the final say on it, though. -- LGagnon 00:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

But of what use would it be to merely reference the literary sources and techniques without actually discussing them? Certainly the book can be a compelling read, but the archetypes, despite the philosophical bandages, are cut from another's cloth, i.e., the plot itself, of the hero removing the good from society, and society collapsing under the weight of its own evil, is a direct plagiarism of Darby's heretical Christian concept of "The Rapture of the Saints," which predates the other literary attributions by 50 years, and is the basis for the recent series of the "Left Behind" stories. And Galt's professed philosophy, rather than contradicting that of Yeshua ha Notzri, shadows it fairly closely. (Don't DARE me to give you a line-by-line scriptural justification of everything that "Galt Speaks".) Talk about "stolen concepts"! BuenSabor 21:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a criticism...

Since I'm not contributing to the article I have no room to criticize, so consider the following mere observation:

I've been intently following this article now for a year or so, trying to make out just exactly what forces are at work. There's obviously two opposing camps. Every so often, one camp or the other will come in and shift things around so that the article slants more this way or that. Then there's wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then someone else comes in and the whole process starts over again. I guess this is how it's all designed to work—Wikipedia, I mean—but it's really not...working, that is. The article on Atlas Shrugged has become for me the test case for Wikipedia. I'm waiting to see happen what I can only assume is supposed to happen: the appearance of an insightful, unbiased and coherent article. Brevity would a plus too.

Ultimately I think that Wikipedia is not for the self-gratification of those writing the articles. These articles are—again I'm assuming—for a person seeking out information. (Let's imagine a young person just becoming interested in literature, curious about a book that their friend recommended.) If I were that young person, which I was, I would want to know a few key pieces of information and I would want this information presented in as organized and proficient a manner as possible. They would include:

1) What it is. (A novel.) When it was written and by whom. _{(Who? I never get that right.)}

2) What those who like it like about it, preferably in a short paragraph or two.

3) What those who don't like it don't like about it...again, keeping it short.

...and...

4) Where, if I'm interested, I could seek out further (still insightful, unbiased and coherent) information.

This for me would be the bare minimum I would expect to see in an authoritative source. Lacking these few items, I just wouldn't trust it.

MDMullins

_{(Lost my login, along with my wide-eyed innocence, long ago.)}

I'm not in either "camp" and I've been trying to make incremental improvements that are acceptable to a consensus since I've been here. Almost everything I've written has stayed in. So it can be done. Agent Cooper 05:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Definition of philosopher

My two cents here would be that the attempt to label Rand as a pseudophilosopher for purposes of NPOV should win the Contrivance of the Year award. Since when is "philosopher" the only calling which excludes autodidacts? While it's obvious that mere self-proclamation doesn't make you one according to general consensus, merely lacking a formal degree in philosophy and/or being a "bad" philosopher doesn't make one a pseudo-anything. The word "philosopher" isn't limited to academic philosophers, anymore than the word "pianist" demands attendance of a conservatory. While every academic philosopher I've met considers Rand's philosophical work deeply flawed, the body of her work in the field is expansive and well-known enough. Heck, if I decided to become a brain surgeon with no formal education in the field, and actually managed to perform brain surgery on a reasonable amount of people without being thrown in jail or killing every one of them, I think I'd warrant being called a brain surgeon. Unigolyn 09:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. You don't get to disqualify someone from being a "philosopher" because they're not academia endorsed. ESPECIALLY if that non-endorsement is self-serving. Fair warning though: despite your well-reasoned post, LGagnon will label you as a "Randist" and if you deny that long enough, you will be interrogated about whether you are a libertarian. MrVoluntarist 15:46, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the personal attack. Don't you just love Jimbopedia, the encyclopedia where anyone can get away with violating policy so long as they're pro-Rand? You're just lucky that king Jimbo's admins aren't willing to go against their master's beliefs and stop the harassment that goes on here and allow the article to become NPOV. It's a wonder that Jimbo's royal guard hasn't yet come here and banned me for heresy against the goddess. -- LGagnon 19:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That wasn't a personal attack. It was a fact, and you just confirmed it. Someone's irony-meter is broken. MrVoluntarist 20:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

LGagnon... It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Attacking another user back can only satisfy trolls or anger contributors and leads to general bad feeling. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks! --Neverborn 17:57, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Unigolyn, you miss my point. It's not just the fact that she's outside of academia; it's also that she simply never developed the talent to be acceptable by anyone with a decent education. Honestly, look at her citations for her anti-Kant argument; in most cases, she uses strawmen against some guy who she trhinks is pro-Kant, and in the one case where she tries to cite Kant it's "see the works of Hegel and Kant". You can't honestly tell me someone with an education worthy of note wrote that utterly stupid line. It's not even a real citation, and if you don't believe me, I'm citing the location of that line as "see the works of Ayn Rand". She doesn't do philosophy; see does weasely arguments for what she thinks is right without real research into the topic (something she apparently didn't believe in). -- LGagnon 19:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone being "stupid" in your eyes is not a disqualification for being a philospher. Neither is being wrong. Neither is being sloppy. People say these things about all kinds of "true" philosophers. Just give it up dude. No one's going to "convert" to objectivism because Wikipedia follows the encyclopedic practice of calling her a philosopher. I just don't see what your problem is. MrVoluntarist 20:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all, part of her appeal is that she is supposedly smart and superior to other philosophers because she is a great-and-talented ubermensch. One of the reasons why so many people grow out of the Rand phase is that they learn what logical fallacies and proper citations are when they get to college, and thus are able to identify them in her arguments. She needs the term "philosopher" to trick undereducated young minds, otherwise she's just another untalented pulp romance novelist. By pushing this, we are feeding the cult like we would if we called dianetics an alternative to psychiatry, or intelligent design as science. Wikipedia, as usual, is being dishonest with this article and only further justifying the accusation of "obsessed Ayn Rand fan" that the media has given to Jimbo.

Secondly, philosophy should use logic. Randism is built on strawmen, one of the most basic of logical fallacies. You can say greed is good because some guy that some guy probably likes is wrong about something he probably said, but there's nothing there that makes enough sense to call it philosophy. -- LGagnon 02:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the first sentence of the post above is a straw-man argument, and that much of the rest amounts to a giant ad hominem. Neither me, nor most Rand fans I know, believe she's some kind of ubermensch or special breed of human being, and we certainly aren't undereducated.kdogg36 22:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

So, because you deem a philosopher's arguments to be "bad", they're not a philosopher anymore? But wait -- Rand thought that about mainstream philosophers! What to do!

Btw, most of the "good" philosophers, if you didn't know this already, made at one point or another truly apalling arguments. Nevertheless, they tend to be judged by their best works, not their worst. Something to consider.

Rand is referenced as a philosopher because that characterization is true. If that fails to optimally quash her ideas, that's just too bad. Even having Rand on Wikipedia expands her audience and makes people likely to believe her "deception". That's not a reason to leave her out. MrVoluntarist 05:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not about bad or good philosophy; it's a matter of is or isn't. Philosophy should be built on logic; Randism is not.

I said "logical fallacies", not "appalling mistakes". Big difference. And I have yet to hear of a philosopher who's whole philosophy was built on a strawman and contained such a bad citation; even if they only made the former mistake, they'd be rejected by anyone with a decent education.

Please argue against my statements, not what you'd prefer to argue against. A strawman from you will not make Rand's strawman any more philosophic. -- LGagnon 19:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be taken seriously, LGagnon, you should probably drop the ad hominems yourself ("...rejected by anyone wiht a decent education.") You can't expect people to argue reasonably with you if you announce up front that you believe they're obviously stupid just for disagreeing with you. Your approach guarantees that no reasonable, logical people will engage you in debate, because you declare in advance that it would be a waste of their time. kdogg36 22:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

A decent education should include basic logic. I know high school doesn't teach it, but a good college (the place where philosophy is usually taught) should include it in one of its required writing courses.

And I didn't mean to insult anyone here; those comments were directed at Rand herself. It's not an insult that she's poorly educated for a supposed philosopher, it's a fact; she really didn't come off as someone who knew what she was talking about (where's the direct arguments against Kant?), and she really didn't understand a simple concept of logic. -- LGagnon 13:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think my problem with this line of thought is that you could say the same things about almost all "Continental" philosophers; the only real difference is that they have canon status and she doesn't. I don't think you appreciate just how bad a lot of "respectable" figures are. So what do we do with that? Does the label simply come with canonization? I still feel like you're using a descriptive label as a value judgment, as when a traditionalist says "Andy Warhol isn't really art." I don't have a problem with "most academics do not regard her as a real philosopher" properly cited, but something else is going on in this discussion, methinks. Why can't we just say (in the spirit of eschewing original research) that some say she is and some say she isn't? I mean, doesn't your appealing to your own classification intuitions also involve "original research"? Agent Cooper 02:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we had a source not long ago making the same exact argument I'm making now. Unfortunately, it was deleted and/or lost, and I am not assuming good faith on this. We've lost too many sources to rabid pro-Rand deletion, and this is another one. I keep on hearing this Orwellian argument that no source has been presented because none are still here, yet in truth nobody remembers them and someone is removing them. Until we get an admin to come here and mediate this so it doesn't fall to mob rule, there's no way anything can be done to improve this article. -- LGagnon 12:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen in my life. To claim that one is not a philosopher because of lack of formal education or research? This is a joke, right? By that definition, Aristotle or Socrates aren't philosophers. Get real! --someone just passing through —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.18.201.182 (talk • contribs).

Just passing through. Some of the best critiques I've found of Rand (I am actually working on one myself so I've been knee deep in them) are written by philosophers attacking her philosophy. I consider this to class her as a philosopher. It doesn't make her right, actually, there are some really good arguments against her written by philosophers. But when a political thinker is debated by politicians it affirms them as a politician and I think that the same applies here. She additionally wrote a couple of books of philosophy (that are generally better argued than her fiction).

BTW looking up some of these arguments might help in your criticism section. Especially as 90% of the non-scholarly refutations of Rand come down to people saying:

1. Yeah but she cheated on her husband.

2. She was an extremely long winded author.

3. Business men cheat too.

All of which, while true statements, are poor arguments against the position held in the book. My two pennies. Query 15:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Galt Motor Really a Perpetual Motion Machine?

Having just read Atlas Shrugged, I believe this section on "Fictional technology" about Galt's Motor (Atlas_shrugged#Galt.27s_Motor) is incorrect:

"This motor generates energy from static electricity; since it is designed to provide its own power as long as it is activated, it is a type of perpetual motion machine."

I disagree. The notion was that the motor took static electricity out of the air. This makes Galt's motor as much a perpetual motion machine as one driven by a solar panel, or, perhaps more clearly, a motor that ran using lightning as a source of energy. Although I doubt the principle described has any physical reality, the notion was not that it created power out of nothing the way a perpetual motion machine would.

Before I remove the part about the perpetual motion, does anybody see something I'm missing?

Whoops... I forgot to sign this. The above was at around 22:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC). I have not made myself an account yet, but I will.

I actually was thinking about this earlier today (for some reason), and I agree: While there is no scientific basis in the real world for the possibility of drawing energy that way, the Galt Motor does not provide its own energy, and so can't count as a PPM. MrVoluntarist 20:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

While we are editing this subsection, I think the following sentence is also incorrect:

 "Galt shows Dagny the motor and describes it in Part 3, Chapter 1."

I assume that this is referring to the part that starts at the bottom of page 669. Galt never actually shows Dagny the motor here. Galt shows her the building where it is housed, but he does not allow Dagny in because she is still a scab. There is the whole discussion about how the door will only let somebody who speaks Galt's oath pass, and Dagny does not speak the oath. Galt never describes the motor. In Part 3, Chapter 2, we find out Galt is giving lectures on physics (starting on page 709), and it seems clear that the physics of the motor is one of the topics, but neither Dagny nor the reader get to hear any of these lectures. This is too much detail for an encyclopedia article, though. The motor is mentioned; we explain what it is and where Dagny first finds it. I think it makes sense to get in the fact that a working version eventually shows up. I could change this part to read something like:

 "In Part 3, Chapter 1, Dagny learns that Galt is using a working version of the motor to generate electricity for Atlantis."

Perhaps somebody else has a better way to phrase it? It is a bit awkward to just throw Atlantis in at the end like that, but it is not so bad. After all, the section referred to is called "Atlantis." 207.171.180.101 22:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I have an account now: Statistical Mechanic 22:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Not too big a deal here, but the technology isn't fictional.BuenSabor 19:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

She does see the motor though, in Galt's apartment. What section is that?75.121.36.237 (talk) 17:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Arbiter099

Rand's Theory of Sex

Shouldn't some mention be made of the emphasis she still does put on physical beauty? The section currently makes it sound like the only thing that makes a person sexual are the values one may share with another. Rand very clearly sees sexual attraction and the sexual act as more that just a response to shared values. She spends much detail describing the attractiveness of her main characters. They're always beautiful people (this is the case also in Anthem and in the Fountainhead) and her ideal sexual ethic celebrates that beauty in conjunction with the beauty of what she considers to be pure beliefs. The immaterial and material are thus unseparated. TyDeaton 04:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree. If you were to read the fountainhead, the main character, Howard Roark, is often described as unattractive with an unruly mane of garish red hair whose appearance makes many people uncomfortable throughout the novel. Rand takes great care to explain that Dominique is deeply attracted to him because of his talent and capability as a person, and thus, finds him beautiful as a result. I also find, through her literature, that she tends to frown upon those who form sexual alliances solely based on physical attractiveness..think of how she portrays Gail Wynands dalliances before he meets Dominique...or the speech in Atlas Shrugged where she says that a man can be analyzed through his sexual choices. I don't think those are the sentiments of a person who weighes physical beauty very heavily into the equation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedit5 (talk • contribs) 10:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure I agree, but I have read only The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, so my larger context on Ayn Rand is going to be weak. It seems to me that while the characters are described as physically attractive in both books, the description tends to center on either what the person was feeling or what they were doing. For example, my impression was that Dagny was probably not particularly beautiful by purely physical standards (though I did not feel she was supposed to be ugly either.) She is certainly not thought by Rearden's wife to be particularly attractive. We usually see Dagny through the eyes of people who admire her, and she often appears beautiful in situations that one would not be. For example, the chain of Rearden metal is flattering on her wrist. She looks beautiful when she is disheveled and passed out from working all night. Alternatively, we are shown how beautiful she is in her happiness at the completion of the John Galt line, a place where we would expect her to look her best, but the ephasis is on her joy. Thinking of Galt, Galt's face is "a face without guilt," which does not seem to imply he would necessarily be handsome otherwise. On the flip side, Rearden's wife is downright ugly when she hooks up with Jim Taggart, even though it seems clear to me that she is a physically beautiful woman.

Rand focuses a lot on the emotions that are revealed by appearance. The bad guys all have faces that project fear and guilt. I see beauty as more metaphorical than literal in the same way that characters with bad teeth are often corrupt. There is usually no real connect implied between corruption and bad teeth; it's just a literary device. That's my feeling anyway. Statistical Mechanic 16:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that her concept of beauty is the 'eye of the beholder' type. That is her writing assumes that the protagonists will find each other attractive but not necissarilly any other characters. Reardon. Galt, D'Anconia, and Willers all find Dagny attractrive but no one else makes referance to it. Floyd Ferris calls her 'an odd sort of conquest' when blackmailing Reardon. Lillian and her own mother refer to her as 'manish' and 'un-feminine' This is held up in her other writings for instance when Dominique declares that Roark is attractive the first time they meet (after the rock quarry that is. Lets say the first time they meet and catch each other's names.) the others present take it as a very odd remark. Query 15:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"Gault" Telluride Tombstone

I just saw a Tombstone for John Gault [sic] in the Telluride Cemetery.

Coincidence? I think not.

Grye 11:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Fictitious inventions?

"In addition to normal technologies, she introduces several fictional inventions, including(...)" "voice activated door locks"

A friend of mine actually has those, so they're not fictional. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.252.12.159 (talk) 13:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

uh... they were fictitious in 1957...;-)Grye 05:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Who owns 'Galt's Motor'?

He developes it as an employee of a motor company that is turning into a cooperative. He abandons the prototype, saying that it is not his property. But what about the idea itself??

I've a strong feeling that anything you invent on company time and with company materials belongs to the company rather than the inventor. Can anyone confirm this? Is US law different from British law?

--GwydionM 17:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The eminent 20th-century Russian-American philosopher Ayn Rand held that the rightful ownership of property was independent of and metaphysically prior to criminal law. Because of this, the jurisdiction would have been irrelevant to a discussion of who was the rightful owner of the idea and object; it would simply be dependent on the particular individual agreement between employee and employer. 216.135.28.40 21:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Usually a major company, or a company of whom it might be a concern, will have a stipulation of copyright etc ownership transferring to said company. I have seen it in contract that an employee retains ownership of their inventions etc but that's probably pretty rare. As to ownership if there is no stipulation, It's my feeling that'd probably depend on who has the better lawyer... Grye 05:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

When working models of the motor were actually developed in the '60's, the company that developed them maintained its ownership "rights". But the bean counters there decided, "hey why keep one expensive engineer, when for the same money you can get two cheap ones?" Neither the company patent lawyers nor the cheaper help could understand what they had, and the motor ended up as it did in the book...a loose collection of useless parts. The company wasn't even able to sustain a claim for prior art when the japanese "acquired" the design patents. So it is now in the realm of "withheld" technology, and I probably will not see it again in my lifetime, nor will anyone else here.BuenSabor 19:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Ms. Rand's concept of ownership of intellectual property (like that of Victor Hugo's), is so compelling that it is now considered the basis of our copyright law, as well as that of the Berne Convention[5], the international copyright agreement subscribed to by 162 countries (as of June 2006).BuenSabor 20:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, of course, since it's a piece of ficticious crap, the answer is nobody. On a more serious note, designs can be patented, texts and images can be copyrighted, but ideas and concepts cannot be owned. Once sombody came up with the idea of creating conductors for electricity (e.g., wires), they could copyright the design of a machine for making wire, but couldn't claim ownership of the entire concept of a conductor made of a strand of metal. the book seems to take the position that this is wrong. The "motor" couldn't be owned by anybody if it simply relied on physical properties that a certain design took advantage of. This is one of the major failings of the novel, IMO: it relies on a fantasy of perpetual motion. -- DavidH (talk) 00:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Harlock Link

What is the Captain Harlock link doing in the see also section. Unless someone can explain why it belongs there I will probably take it out. V2-Gundam 03:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Userbox?

Is there an Atlas Shrugged userbox? Who is John Galt?, A is A, Check your premises, This user is a Man of the mind, Something with a big gold dollar symbol... Perhaps I'll create one.. anyone interested? Suggestions? On a side note - What would Ann Rand think of Wikipedia? I wonder if I'm violating such principles or morals by participating in this production of free information. Oh well - who is John Galt. Morphh ^(talk) 2:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Not if you're doing so voluntarily. If you're contributing to Wikipedia because the Government is holding a gun to your head and telling you to contribute, or if your mother or religion or whatever shames you that you "should", even though you don't believe in the program, then those who are coercing you are immoral. Incidentally, the novel makes it clear that assisting others in concert with your own values is moral. If your values include sharing some of your knowledge with the world, please feel free to contribute :) Unimaginative Username 03:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are able to answer the question of Who is John Galt? then you are one who acts for your own happiness and towards your own goals. If contributing to Wikipedia is for your own happiness then it is not a violation of Objectivist morals.75.121.36.237 (talk) 17:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)Arbiter099

Wikipedia is not a link directory

ThAtSo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Links_to_be_considered LaszloWalrus 08:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

ThatSo, See also the section "Links normally to be avoided", which I think includes many that you have posted (though I did not review them all). Morphh ^(talk) 12:30, 07 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't post any of them, I just undeleted them. Maybe some of them don't belong, but nobody's said why. It's not enough to give a general link, you need to spell out what's wrong with each one so we don't have to guess. ThAtSo 15:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Links themselves must be notable. Hence, the Chambers criticism should stay (since Chambers was a prominent intellectual and his review of the novel is relatively famous). The various parodies of Atlas Shrugged and associated humor do not belong because none of them are notable, nor do they add anything siginificant to anyone's understanding of the novel. Many of the links were to personal websites or blogs, both of which are frowned upon at Wikipedia. 70.181.155.101 06:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The above by the anon IP is mine. I forgot to log in before writing it. LaszloWalrus 06:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler warning

There is no spoiler warning anywhere on the page. I would just fix it, but I'm reading the book and I don't want to spoil it for myself :-D --Orgullomoore 06:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it will be redundant to put a spoiler warning on the plot section because it will obiously have spoilers in it. Marlith 15:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The quotes do not belong here

I don't really think that quotes would belong on an encycloepdeia article. Perhaps a link to Wikiquote would be more appropiate. What do you think? Marlith ^T/C 16:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I second that. No objections have been raised in the past moth or so since you brought this up. I take that as a green light to transwiki the section to Wikiquote. Sbacle 16:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Critical reception section

I think the way the Critical Reception section reads now is a little confusing. For example in the second paragraph it reads as if the website Capitalism Magazine is directly responding to Whittaker Chambers' review, when in reality the two articles were separated by decades. I was reading the section to see what Rand's contemporaries were saying about her work, but I found mentions of original reviews mixed in with quotes from bloggers. I suggest the section is shaped to make it follow a more chronological order. KHorberg 13:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I would really like to see some sense of the prevailing literary criticisms of the book. There should be some information to the effect that, no matter how many copies it has sold, as a piece of literature, many, many, scholars and learned writers think (and have said in print) that this book is excrement -- as literature. Can't we find some quotes? Nearly anyone who appreciates literature has a hard time swallowing this brick of pedantic, tugid, dogmatic writing as an artful example of a novel. I would hate to think of impressionable young minds, drawn to the selfish philosphy of the book, reading the article and not getting a balanced view of just how many people think its literary merits are nil. DavidH (talk) 01:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

In popular culture

Could someone please enlighten me as to why a scholarly article about a great work of literature requires a trivia section? I'm not a big fan of edit warring, be it fast-paced or slow-motion. Is it actually relevant to an academic understanding of the work to know about every time the book is mentioned on Family Guy, South Park, or in a comic book? ➪HiDrNick! 20:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, HiDrNick. I undid your deletion of the trivia section, so I'll respond. First of all, I'll just say that, in my opinion, this article is merely striving to be a scholarly article. As of now, it contains mostly original research and has almost no citations from scholarly works. Of the 24 citations in the article, only 2 are from the "scholarly"/"analytical" part of the article. And only 1 of those 2 is a real citation. The other one simply cites Atlas Shrugged itself, to confirm the page length of John Galt's speech (such a citation is not required under any citation system - Chicago, MLA, etc.). Of the remaining 24 citations, 17 are from the section, "Critical Reception"; 4 are from the section, "Film Adaptation"; and 1 is from the section, "In Popular Culture." Since there are almost no citations in the "analytical" part of the article, that work is original research as far as readers are concerned. It doesn't matter if you and me know that the analysis is accurate, it must be cited from verifiable, reliable sources.

Second of all, Atlas Shrugged has, by Rand's design, become a part of popular culture -- and that's worth noting. Perhaps a list is not the best way of doing so, but I think it is important to include that fact and the nature of its popular dissemination nonetheless. Just because you think the novel is a "great work of literature" doesn't mean that this fact or its details should be excluded entirely. It is certainly an important book, though, and the article should be treated seriously. If you have ideas of how to reform its structure, please do offer them. Personally, I haven't been particularly invested in this article and, therefore, haven't really made an effort myself.

Third of all, regarding your decision to remove the entire "In Popular Culture" section, I think you're misinterpreting WP:TRIV as condoning the deletion of trivia sections. WP:TRIV states:

This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. - If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all.
This guideline does not suggest always avoiding lists in favor of prose. - Some information is better presented in a list format.

So, I think rather than excising such list sections entirely, those sections should be modified appropriately by editors working together in good faith and operating on consensus. As for the best presentation of that information, I do not favor list or prose. Either seems fine.

Hope that answers your question. Cheers, ₪ ask123 {t} 16:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I am unconcerned with the trivia guideline, being just that, a guideline. I suppose it seems so glaringly obvious to me that a list of assorted mentions of the book in other works of art and entertainment is inappropriate here that any guideline suggesting otherwise will come around in due time. I agree that the current state of the article is poor, and that sufficient academic and news sources exist to make the article a good one. Going forward, I think it may be worthwhile to just stub the article and start over, with an emphasis on sources and analysis. Of course, I wouldn't be so bold without checking in with the other interested editors first. ➪HiDrNick! 06:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Any other thoughts about the appropriateness or necessity of a trivia section in this article? ➪HiDrNick! 06:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that it might be valid to touch on "Atlas Shrugged in Popular Culture" if it helps to understand more about Atlas Shrugged, or popular culture, or if it places the novel in an interesting / thought-provoking /suggestive context. As it stands, the Popular Culture section does none of these things. It is immaterial that Atlas Shrugged was name-checked in episodes of The Simpsons or South Park. As usual, these pop culture trivia sections are useless. It is the "Pokemon phenomenon" of Wikipedia. In a way, it's a good thing - it clearly marks the articles as of dubious scholarly merit. It shows up Wikipedia's pretense of being an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.197.14 (talk) 06:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont think you can genuinly charaterise the appearances in south park or futurama as 'name checking' they are clear criticism of the book, like wise Bioshock is not just a refferance, but builds on the themes of the book. Chopping it down the virtually nothing, then cramming the info into the refferances section is NOT the right way to present this section, it may as well be flushed completly as it is totally meaningless like it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.30.174 (talk) 16:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The "In Popular Culture" section contains an error. Atlas Shrugged is not the book referenced in A Scanner Darkly. The Fountainhead is the correct novel that appears in both the movie and the book by Philip K. Dick. 130.160.192.115 07:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Roll call

Calling all interested and watchlisted editors: who is interested in a sourced rewrite of this article? From scratch. or in pieces? Who likes it just fine the way it is? Any takers? Cheers, ➪HiDrNick! 06:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Present--Keerllston 15:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Publication Date

I keep seeing October 12 mentioned by many as the publication date of Atlas Shrugged. I see only October 10 in items from ARI.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_aynrand_timeline

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=index

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=15751&news_iv_ctrl=1221

I changed the article to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.140.225.34 (talk) 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Actual Railroad

The article currently states that no railroad like the one in the book existed, this source disagrees.

“

One drawback of Rand's literary method to present her ideas, although it follows in the great Russian tradition of philosophical novels, is the manner in which it sometimes obscures historical realities that would reinforce her argument. Thus the Taggart Railroad of Atlas Shrugged may strike someone with an average knowledge of American history as the kind of thing that never existed. Most people know that the transcontinental railroads were built with federal subsidies and federal land grants. They may also know that such railroads were tangled up in hopelessly corrupt, politicized financial schemes and in the end were so badly run and managed that they all (Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, & Northern Pacific) went bankrupt in the Panic of 1893. It takes somewhat better knowledge to know about James J. Hill (1838-1916), who built his own transcontinental railroad, the Great Northern, without public subsidies or land grants and often with the political opposition and obstructionism of the rival Northern Pacific and its political backers.

”

from "Ayn Rand, Anti Communism and the Left" which is rather politically POV--Keerllston 00:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Shale Oil Drilling

This is a minor edit compared to others listed; but the shale oil drilling described in the book is not possible. It is listed in the article as being invented after the book. While it is possible to get oil from shale today, the shale must be mined, and subsequently heated to release the oil. Ellis Wyatt's method described by Rand simply has oil pouring from the ground, this is not possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dankrouse (talk • contribs) 06:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's possible, since I remember reading some article on an in-situ-method used in Sweden during WWII. Electrical heating elements were placed in holes drilled in the ground (which contained oil shale), whereafter the oil was pumped up. CalleC (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Things

Characters in Atlas Shrugged has several links that go to here, for things like the 'equalization of opportunities bill', but they're never mentioned here. Can someone who's read it add them please? Larklight (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The link to the equalization of opportunity bill actually points to Things in Atlas Shrugged which has been redirected to the present article. Haven't seen the history for both articles yet, but probably selected entries might have been merged into the main article and the rest dropped. Still, at least something must be mentioned regarding that bill. Last Contrarian (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Citation Note

The introductory paragraph rather overstates both the book's importance and popularity. Textual note 2 redirects to another book, and note 3 redirects to a review in USA Today - neither of which are by any stretch of the imagination to be considered as authoritative sources. Indeed, the claim that Rand's book rivals the bible is based on the results of a single poll of just 5,000 in the USA Today review - which doesn't even attempt to clarify what the poll's selection criteria were. The claim is, in addition, obviously Anglo- and Euro-centric not to mention biased in favour of out-of-favour CEOs and the like. Rand's book may be of interest as a pseudo-philosophical and literary publication but bona fide economists tend to regard the book's claims as hopelessly reductive. Those who have come under its sway tend to latch onto its exculpatory message - which is understandable in a world which has been rocked by economic mismanagement at the highest levels. The book's most vocal proponents are precisely those readers who are most liable to misrepresent its influence by way of vindicating their own dubious fiscal practices. Please, let's put this book in its proper perspective! It's certainly no "great work of literature" as another editor has claimed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironiclogic (talk • contribs) 13:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Not terrible?

Is there any plan to make this and other Ayn Rand articles not terrible? Would anyone like to start one? This reads like someone who feels very uncomfortable with the topic. D prime (talk) 03:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You might consider joining WikiProject: Objectivism or you can be bold and fix the articles yourself. —D. Monack ^talk 04:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Interlectuals

Ought the article mention the similarities between her ideas about mooching interlectuals who live off, but damn, capitalism, and the accounts given by Schumpeter & Nozkick? Larklight (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Speculation in "Setting" section

The first sentence tells how intentionally vague the setting is, and then proceeds to speculate as to the setting. I have no issue with the information contained in the section, rather with it's use in speculating on the setting. Padillah (talk) 12:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

library of congress survey

i have discovered a library of congress survey from 1991 that found that, among people who reported that a book changed their lives, atlas shrugged was second only to the bible in terms of books that had that effect on them. no source i've found has really worded the findings better than that. i need to find the survey itself online, and then i'll link it as a reference and throw it into the article. can i replace the crackpot modern library survey with it? eh? eh? What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 04:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Lord of the Rings

Hello all; I came upon this article while randomly clicking links. I have a question about the following sentence in the Praise and Influence section and I hope by asking, we can clean it up to make it clearer:

In a three-month online poll of reader selections of the hundred best novels of the twentieth century, administered by publisher Modern Library, Atlas Shrugged was voted number one, ahead of The Fountainhead, and The Lord of the Rings ...

I understand the comment about the Fountainhead, since it was Rand's other big work, but why was Lord of the Rings mentioned? No other reference to the series is mentioned in this article. Was it #3 on the list? If so, perhaps we should clarify that. If, as I suspect, it is just mentioned at random, I think it should be probably be excluded. Looking back through old revisions of the page, Battlefield Earth had also been included in front of Lord of the Rings, but it eventually was taken out. Thoughts? -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 04:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like I will answer my own question, heh -- according to Modern Library 100 Best Novels#Readers' list, Lord was #4, Battlefield was #3, and Fountainhead was #2. I guess my other question still stands, though: should we remove the Lord mention, emphasis that Fountainhead was #2, and provide a wlink to Modern Library 100 Best Novels#Readers' list? -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 04:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

The comment is not inaccurate. A comparison to a well known title gives the poll meaning. LotR is probably better known among those who haven't read any of the books. I could see putting Battlefield back in. Why the desire to take Tolkien out? Kjaer (talk) 06:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a "desire to take it out", I just think there should be emphasis as to why it in particular is mentioned, since it is not referred to elsewhere in the article. Then again, why mention numbers 2-4 from the list and not also #5, or even numbers 2-10? My suggestion is one of the following:

In a three-month online poll of reader selections of the hundred best novels of the twentieth century, administered by publisher Modern Library, Atlas Shrugged was voted number one, ahead of The Fountainhead (#2), and other seminal works such as Battlefield Earth (#3), The Lord of the Rings (#4) and To Kill a Mockingbird (#5) ...
In a three-month online poll of reader selections of the hundred best novels of the twentieth century, administered by publisher Modern Library, Atlas Shrugged was voted number one, just ahead of Rand's other seminal work, The Fountainhead (#2).

Thoughts? -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 19:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I oppose just mentioning Rand at #1 and 2# since it gives no notion of the nature of the rest of the list. I think it is more succinct to mention just Tolkien. But I do not at all oppose the longer mention of the top five. I am not sure that seminal is the best adjective - it implies fruitful. I would use canonical, which applies to all but Battlefield Earth, since that is not generally read in high school English, while the others are. Kjaer (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

"Flight from dictatorship"? - Criticism section

"and despite her own flight from dictatorship as a young woman."

Does leaving, then returning to study for a few years, then leaving again once she'd completed her studies really constitute a "flight"? This isn't meant to be an idealisation- leaving a totalitarian country in your own sweet time after returning to it of your own free will doesn't really say anything about whether she had a totalitarian bent or not. 78.150.174.166 (talk) 21:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

She completed her studies before she came to America, and never returned to the USSR. Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 22:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

After previously leaving, then returning, then leaving only once she was finished doing what she was doing. The way it's worded makes it seem like an Indiana Jones style dash for the border- and it still isn't any refutation of the totalitarian allegations in question (surely something from her writings would fit better here?) 78.150.174.166 (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are refering to her family leaving Saint Petersburg for Crimea. She did return to St. Petersburg to attend university, but Crimea was part of the Soviet Union. She did not leave the USSR until she went to the US and did not return thereafter. Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 23:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

As for something from her writing, I think the preceding phrase, "despite Rand's explicit and consistent advocacy in the novel of political, economic and personal freedom", sums that up fairly well. I'm not sure if specific examples/quotations fit appropriately into the flow of the article at that point, and if we included any, we would need a secondary source linking that example to the article in question in order to avoid synthesis. Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 00:07, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Criticism

The section based on Nathaniel Branden's "Benefits and Hazards" needs some serious reworking, if not deletion. Here is the text as it stands after my last edit:

Former Ayn Rand associate Nathaniel Branden argues that Atlas Shrugged "encourages emotional repression and self-disowning" and that it, along with Rand's other major Objectivist novel, The Fountainhead, contains contradictory messages. Though he notes that the book shows that Rand understood the human need for social interaction, Branden claims that "rarely you find the heroes and heroine talking to each other on a simple, human level without launching into philosophical sermons," which he believes increases the reader's self-alienation. He further criticizes the potential psychological impact of the novel, stating that John Galt's claim that contempt and moral condemnation are appropriate responses to wrongdoing clashes with the recommendations of psychologists, who say that this kind of behavior only causes the wrongdoing to repeat itself.[15] Rand herself, however, would not have regarded a novel as needing to portray such "ordinary" human interaction at all, even if an entire philosophy of life does need to address this.[16] Indeed, since Branden's critique was published, Rand's private journal entries regarding Branden have been released, and they show that, in actuality, Rand herself had warned Branden against such "self-disowning" traits. [17]

The main problem is that Branden's essay is not a criticism of AS, but of Rand's philosophy in general. AS is relevant only in so far as he believes redear's emulation of its characters leads to moralizing, repression and alienation. But this is not a criticism of the book as literature. Further, while he does say that one can find contradictory passages in the book, he does not mean to argue that the book is self-contradictory, but rather that different characters are portrayed in different ways at different times, and that as with the Bible, one can find examples to suit one's arguments both pro and con. Again, this is not really a criticism of the book as a book, or even really a criticism. I am loathe to remove more than half of this section at one blow, but the criticisms he makes are criticisms of parts of Rand's theory of emotions and psychology, not criticisms of AS as literature. Kjaer (talk) 18:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

they're also criticisms of her as a person inspired by his affair and tumultuous break-up with her, followed soon after by the tragic death of the woman he cheated on her with and married upon his "excommunication" ( i do believe he uses that term in his book). i can hardly think of person who is more biased on this issue than Nathaniel Branden. it really would be nice if some quotes and paraphrases by people unaffiliated with Ayn Rand herself or with avowedly liberal publications such as The Huffington Post (see above) could make it into the criticism section. What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 15:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Lines in "originality" section

The "originality" section has the following lines: "Rand's novel represents an unconventional blend of cinematic action-adventure, suspense-mystery and sexual tension, along with carefully developed psychological and philosophical insights and arguments, thus combining elements of both popular and literary fiction with an unmistakably unique style and voice." Should this be in a Wikipedia article? If it's not a quote from an influential review, it sounds to me like an unverifiable opinion rather than encylopedic fact. I'd say it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.92.117.233 (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I removed it. If anyone puts it back, please argue why this is of encyclopedic value. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.92.117.233 (talk) 13:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Edits to reception

I've removed some content from this section for focusing too much on WP:Recentism (specifically, attempts to link Rand with the current economic crisis) and not enough on historical perspective. There's still a much larger problem though, both with this section and the article as a whole, which is that much of it appears to be about Rand's philosophy in general rather than Atlas Shrugged in particular. That's understandable, given that this book is many people's first introduction to her thought, but it doesn't mean such content belongs here (rather than, say, at Objectivism (Ayn Rand)). This article should be about Atlas Shrugged as a novel; criticism, positive or negative, should focus on the book's literary merits rather than the political ideas it expresses. Robofish (talk) 08:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Robofish: your point is well-taken. I'm the one who added the section referring to Greenspan's connection with Rand, and his current renunciation of at least part of Rand's belief system. You're correct, my writeup belongs better in Objectivism (Ayn Rand). When I get a chance, I'll place it there. JohnSawyer (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Auto archive

This page is rather long and has fairly old topics. I propose MiszaBot be set up for threads older than 60 days. Will go ahead with it if no objections within 24 hours. Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 20:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

"Thrown with great force"

Under Criticism:

One of Dorothy Parker's best known quips as a book critic, "This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force." came from her review of Atlas Shrugged.

~~I totally agree with the sentiment, but~~ I think that quote is actually from Parker's review of The Cardinal's Mistress by Benito Mussolini. I'm still looking for a real citation but I'm pretty sure it was not for Atlas Shrugged. Nickel.undertone (talk) 20:34, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I did a quick Google; it seems oft-quoted in regards to AS, but I didn't see anything that could be considered a reliable source for the matter. Jomasecu ^talk _contribs 20:53, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Googling Dorothy Parker together with Mussolini, Duces Wild, The Cardinal's Mistress, you'll find this quote attributed to it. I found the review in question -- "Duces Wild" in the New Yorker, Sept 15, 1928. But Parker did not use this sentence in her review. Parker was also reviewing books for Esquire in 1958 when A.S. was published, but so far I have not found the primary source for this quote. It may not be in anything she wrote. The most reliable reference I have found is The Starving Artist's Survival Guide (2005) in which the quote is said to have referred to Mussolini's novel. The quote appears in other published works but what book she was referring to is not specified Nickel.undertone (talk) 23:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Criticism section citations

The criticism section has a distinct lack of citations, as is noted by the warning at the top of the section, but I added in an additional inline citation-needed flag at the beginning of the section about the novel "not being well-received". That clause has no citation, and a redundant statement just like it in the Early Reception section has a citation link. Following the link, the citation is just a random collection of reviews. No statistics are provided for even a subjective average score, and the reviews certainly don't all seem to dislike the book.

I think the section needs serious work, if not removal (books such as Das Kapital have no criticism sections, despite presenting equally controversial philosophies.) In the short-term, I would recommend merging the text directly below the "Criticism" parent line and the text below the "Early Reception" header, because they're redundant and short. Merechriolus (talk) 18:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Just preliminarily, how about something like this, not changing any of the sentiment or tone of the article:

Reception

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources in this section. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
Find sources: "Archive 3" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR (October 2007) (Learn how and when to remove this message)

Atlas Shrugged was generally disliked by critics when first reviewed in 1957^{[citation needed]}, despite being a popular success. According to a 1991 United States survey by the Library of Congress and the Book of the Month Club, Atlas Shrugged was the book that made most difference in readers' lives after the Bible.^[1]

Note that the proposal above disregards the current citation provided in the Early Reception section, until a more substantial citation that doesn't rely on subjective perceptions can be provided.Merechriolus (talk) 18:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

2008 financial crisis section

i have removed it. i am the second person to do so. it is unsourced psuedojournalism, the sort of thing that might very well be an ideal example of the problem of original research. that something strikes one as interesting does not warrant its inclusion in wikipedia. if the people posting this thing over and over would like to figure out who the "many observers" besides them who have noted this are, source the paragraph, and put it in either the praise or influence section, or perhaps another one as appropriate, then their contributions will quickly go from detrimental to helpful. What makes a man turn neutral? (talk) 16:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I have not had a hand in the previous edits, but I will disagree with not mentioning the novel and the apparent literary relation to the current global economic crisis. As an example: http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13185404&source=hptextfeature I.e. this topic is getting mainstream recognition, and if you read the link above, you will notice that sales of the novel show a relatively strong correlation with dire economic events. -NM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.107.116 (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think this section is interesting! I am sorry it is out. If someone decides to put this section back in, add AIG to list of bailout companies, it is now up to $180 Billion. 71.60.218.117 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC).

Apparently, someone did some work to source this section after the complaint listed above was recorded. The latest complaint against it is only that it says that the crisis started in September 2008, which the person who removed the entire section felt was misleading. Perhaps so...but why does that justify removing the entire section? Surely a simple fix of the first sentence would have been enough. For instance, "In the wake of the negative economic situation which began in September of 2008" could easily have been changed to "In the wake of the negative economic situation of 2008-09". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plain Sane (talk • contribs) 20:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Nolan chart criticism of this Wiki article

I haven't edited this article in eons, so I am not up to date on the latest disputes, changes, edit wars, etc.

http://www.nolanchart.com/article6235.html - this is a criticism of this Wiki article and recent changes made to it in light of Atlas' resurgence in sales. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ (talk) 18:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Criticism section

The criticism section appears to be written by someone wishing to dismiss criticism of this book. Each example of a critic is followed by an attack on that critic, or an attempt to refute their criticism in the editorial voice. In contrast, when positive references are made to the novel there is no immediately following counterpoint.

If nobody objects I will try and rectify this problem myself (I will give people time to respond as I am not looking for an edit war).

GrampaScience (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Please do rectify this problem. I found the criticism section to be almost completely worthless. The critics chosen to be represented here seem to have been chosen specifically for the ability to refute their arguments. Even a cursory reading of Rand's philosophy finds all kinds of weak points which could be well attacked. Surely there are thousands of well-qualified critics who have made cogent arguments.

216.243.176.75 (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

After having a go at fixing the criticism section it has been once again revert by Rand fans to a list of people who don't like the book coupled with reasons they are Bad People. I find it incredibly tiresome that I have to undo this damage. GrampaScience (talk) 09:52, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Overhaul

If you look at comparable wikipedia articles of the featured class/works of literature: for example Hamlet, To Kill a Mockingbird, Uncle Tom's Cabin, they share common structural elements - (short) plot summary, maybe a discussion of characters, and info about the writing/background, reception, and adaptations. This article is creaking along in that direction, but there are literally paragraphs and paragraphs of assertions about what Rand meant by this, that, and the other thing. Much of it, like this post, repetitive and redundant. So I am cutting text as well as adding cites. Kaisershatner (talk) 18:58, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Nicely done, Kaisershatner — not only did you trim the Fictional Technology section to a more reasonable length, your entire reorganization makes this a much better article. I would not have edited nearly as well, so many thanks.—Blanchette (talk) 08:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

As mentioned above, I have removed some of the editorializing from the 'criticism' part of the reception section, so now it reads less like 'why all critics are wrong'. I feel this article has suffered from being produced primarily by Objectivists who are keen to present their viewpoints perhaps at the cost of readability. GrampaScience (talk) 15:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your contribution! Kaisershatner (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Fictional Technology, etc. Irrelevant

The section on fictional technology in Atlas Shrugged is taking up space that could be used to address much more important issues about the novel, such as how Rand structured the concrete events of the novel to demonstrate the abstract principles she presented in Galt's speech. The fictional technology section borders on triviality because these technologies are not intended to be anything other than place holders for actual technologies that are always pioneered by the individual reasoning mind and perverted by altruist-collectivist villains. Rand's fictional technologies are not in the tradition of science fiction projections of the social consequences of space travel or robotics, they are closer to the projected technologies in Fritz Lang's Metropolis -- the technology is there to show the exploitation of the workers in Metropolis and of the 'men of the mind' in Atlas. Consider the "Ferris Persuader" at the climax. The real point of the scene is that they are torturing Galt to force him to take over the failing economy (true!) when the machine fails and Galt has to tell them how to repair the device with which they are torturing him, making the point that as parasites they need his mind for everything. It trivializes the work to devote so much time to the details of the imaginary technology and so little to its meaning.

The same thing is true of the comparison of the fictional railroad to the real ones. I propose we get rid of all these comparatively trivial items and instead draw on the many scholarly sources on the structure and meaning of Atlas Shrugged including those from ARI, The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, etc., and I call on members of Wiki Project Objectivism to help. I'll wait for your comments before removing the material I think is of little relevance. —Blanchette (talk) 00:29, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There are no effective space constraints on Wikipedia, so sections on fictional technology and the structure and meaning of the book are not in competition for coverage here. The best path of article development in most cases is to expand will all relevant, verifiable coverage, and at that point, consider splits and weighting. There is little connection between the fictional technologies and the other facets of the work you mention, making them separate issues. So the easy answer here is to go ahead and add the scholarly coverage of the novel, and don't worry about the fictional technology. However, as a separate issue, the fictional technology section is completely unsourced, and I don't believe there is much in the way of secondary coverage of it or that it is a core part of the topic. As such, I think moving it here until sources are found would not be to the detriment of the article. I would stress, however, that the best way to advance the article is constructive rather than destructive: to expand with quality content from reliable sources. Skomorokh 03:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia should remain as NPOV as possible on the subject. While the fictional technology is by no means important to the plot, it does exist in the context of Rand's fictional universe. However, making commentary about the text is by no means allowed on Wikipedia without adequate primary sourcing. Marlith (Talk) 03:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

All commentary in this section can be stripped as Original Research. And without the commentary, it devolves into a list. Instead of removing the section or laboring over the sub-sections, I'd recommend reducing the section to a paragraph giving examples of government projects - torture and mass murder machines - and industrial projects - hard to get oil extraction, engine that runs off of omnipresent static, a metal that signifigantly improves upon steel. We just need to avoid writing a conclusion not supported by a reliable source. Karbinski (talk) 12:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

A full discussion of the novel will include a treatment of the technology that is found in the universe in which it is set. There are, as has already been stated, no constraint on space. Wikipedia is not paper. If an article reaches such a size that it is practically inaccessible to those that have slow Internet connections, use mobile devices, or accessibility issues, that can be addressed by splitting articles. This is all policy, as can be found in the link above. Hence, deletion of the section for the purpose of saving space, or even of preserving 'balance', is out of the question.

However, the entire section, and entire article, must be supported by verifiable references, from reliable sources, as is also policy. That is to say, the technology of the world must be covered in another medium. I suggest that one would find one in in-depth reviews, in the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, or in any discussion of Ayn Rand as a science fiction author in another publication. Until then, the section should be viewed with suspicion: only because it is unsourced, not because it is 'unduly' long. Bastin 14:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

A quality encyclopedic article is not created by including everything just because you can include it. A quality article requires quality writing and quality style. I'm not advocating deletion of the section, I'm advocating replacing an over-emphasized list (essentially a list, once OR commentary is taken away) with prose. Karbinski (talk) 19:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree- this whole section is basically original research, not a single reference there. And it is massively out of proportion to its significance in the novel. Kaisershatner (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

As for examples...

The examples in the section are a bit irrelevant. There is no innovation in the Ferris torture machine, but the Reardan's alloy much cheaper and much stronger than steel is an absolute fantasy, especially that it's based of copper which is not one of the cheapest materials 93.175.237.107 (talk) 20:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

New Deal

It is true Rand hated the New Deal. However, this paragraph as written doesn't cite the relationship between that and Atlas, so I am storing it here in case someone wants to find a cite that does establish this. Kaisershatner (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

In the novel, the government's interference with and regulation of economic life are reminiscent of those instituted through President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "New Deal" – of which Rand strongly disapproved.^[2] The Washington bureaucrats depicted in the book resemble those in Rand's work The Fountainhead, which is explicitly set in the later 1930s under Roosevelt's New Deal administration.^{[citation needed]}

Also uncited, possibly true but also possibly unrelated. Kaisershatner (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC):

Rand conceived the book and started writing it at the time when the US implemented the Marshall Plan and sent extensive aid to European countries, many of which – while opposed to the Soviet Union – implemented Socialist or Social-Democratic policies of one kind or another. Specifically, a major beneficiary of American aid was Britain under the Attlee Government, which implemented more clearly Socialist policies than any other British Labour Party cabinet, carried out significant nationalizations and instituted the Welfare State. (A minor character in the book, Gilbert Keith-Worthing, is a British novelist who comes to the US and urges his American hosts to nationalize their country's railways.)

^ Michael Shermer. The Mind of the Market. (2008). Times Books. ISBN 0805078320, p. XX
^ Rand not only actively campaigned (taking an unpaid position in the campaign) for the Presidential candidacy of Wendell Wilkie in 1940, she was a tireless critic of the New Deal. The periodical she edited, for example, strongly recommended the work of leading FDR critic John T. Flynn, see, The Objectivist Newsletter, "The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn, Reviewed," Sept. 1962.

Aggressive soapboxing by Rand fans

This article merely serves to describe the book, its themes and its reception. It is not a place for Ayn Rand fans to score debate points. DO NOT revert my edits to the criticism section without first come here. Immediately following the opinion of a critic with an assault on their political affiliations is a clear example of weasel words.

Seeing as how this book might well be turning into a movie in the near future, and certain pundits have been pushing it as well, this articles importance looks set to rise. Lets have its quality rise as well and not let it be a soap box for Objectivists. GrampaScience (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2009 (UTC) But your weasel words are OK, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.241.57 (talk) 20:43, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The Yaron Brook quote is an absolute joke. No, it doesn't "sound familiar" to anyone who isn't a Rand worshipper. Pure opinion. Get rid of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.205.104.34 (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Misleading...

"The working title throughout her writing was The Strike. According to Barbara Branden, the change was made for dramatic reasons––Rand believed that titling the novel 'The Strike' would have revealed the mystery element of the novel prematurely."

She did this with all of her novels, giving them titles that would help remind her what the central theme was, but then changing the titles to something that would not be understood by the reader until after the novel had been read. This is explained in Anthem Centennial Edition with Introduction by Ayn Rand (ISBN-10: 0452286352 ISBN-13: 978-0452286351), at least.

The above sentence makes it appear it is a quality of the book, while it should emphasize it was really a quality of the author's style.

For example: Airtight became We The Living Ego became Anthem Second Hand Lives became The Fountainhead

Small suggestion to an excellent article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.80.142.62 (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2009

South Park

This book is referenced in South Park's Chickenlover episode. please add it as cultural reference to the article. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 18:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed the sentence "Atlas Shrugged is referenced in the South Park episode "Chickenlover" by the character Officer Barbrady." from the article as I felt it didn't really add anything. Camilo Sanchez disagrees with me. Did anyone want to comment? Pollinosisss (talk) 22:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Some discussion of the novel's representation in pop culture is relevant, but a single-item listing about this one episode doesn't really address it in a way that is appropriate for an encyclopedia article. --RL0919 (talk) 01:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Look, I understand the position of many people regarding articles that are very academic in nature. I am not saying it improves or diminishes the quality of the article. I just think it is useful. Think about it. What if there is anyone out there who wants to find a connection between something so popular as South Park and something as academic as Atlas Shrugged. You don't imagine the usefulness of such connections in a web based encyclopedia as this one. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Bioshock

There are many who believe that the computer game BioShock is influenced by this book ([6] [7] [8]) and I'm thinking this might be an explanation for the increased popularity in later years. If anyone has more reliable sources it would be nice to get it in the article, or perhaps you could phrase it as that there is "much discussion" around the subject if it has influenced the game. notwist (talk) 09:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no question. BioShock's world is based around Objectivism and even contains a character who calls himself Atlas. But the only purpose it might serve to mention it here is as you say, "perhaps an explanation for increased popularity." That of course would need to be cited, but good luck finding a source. Aubreygrossman (talk) 15:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I bought and read Atlas Shrugged due in no small part to Bioshock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.26.117.1 (talk) 17:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Same, I think it should at least be mentioned as it has brought the idea to a new audience and is still being expanded upon to a certain extent. I'll see if I can find an article on it... 122.104.155.135 (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Mistake...

Dr. Robert Stadler is not the character who blackmails Rearden. It's some Ferris Fueller or someone.Mehfoos (talk) 21:53, 3 October 2009 (UTC) (I forgot to sign earlier)

Floyd Ferris. The whole passage about the State Science Institute wanting Rearden Metal was filled with POV interpretations and assorted mistakes, all related to a relatively minor subplot, so I just chopped those sentences entirely. --RL0919 (talk) 23:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

This sentence is difficult to parse: "As this unfolds, Dagny is disappointed to discover that Francisco d'Anconia, a true genius and her only childhood friend, first love, and king of the copper industry, appears to have become a worthless playboy who is destroying his family's monopoly, which has made him into one of the richest and most powerful men in the world."... perhaps 'which has' should be 'which had'? (I'm not sure) --Bobbozzo (talk) 07:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Praise and influence - Tea Party Protests

Is the citation that "100 fans of the book ...took part in protests" really relevant to the article? If it can be documented that Atlas Shrugged is a major influence on the Tea Party movement, then that's relevant and should be included. As it is, the connection is not clear from the references and it seems that this sentence is ripe for deletion. Every minor protest event (and 100 participants is pretty minor) shouldn't merit a Wikipedia citation. The second reference (http://colorado.newsplatoon.com/2009/02/24/denver-tea-party/) doesn't mention the author or the work at all. Mr swordfish (talk) 16:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Why is Raj Patel's criticism relevant?

I removed the following recently inserted text:

In his book The Value of Nothing, author Raj Patel expresses concern for the psychological impact of Atlas Shrugged on young minds: "There are two novels that can transform a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish daydream that can lead to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood in which large chunks of the day are spent inventing ways to make real life more like a fantasy novel.The other is a book about orcs."^[1]

While cute, I wonder "who is Raj Patel?" My point is why is this particular book and/or author's criticism noteworthy and/or relevant? Alfred Centauri (talk) 00:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

The book just came out this month, so we're probably looking at a case of recentism. --RL0919 (talk) 00:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Awesome quote though. Fences&Windows 01:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

What's with the massive spoilers in the first paragraph?

The actual existence of a real person named John Galt doesn't actually happen until at least one third into the book. Also, there was a reason the book isn't called "the strike". That's because you don't even find out it's a "strike" until even past John Galt. Please have some respect for those who haven't read the book and stop spoiling the middle in the first paragraph —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.92.209 (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but Wikipedia guidelines tell editors not to worry themselves over whether readers will discover plot information while reading articles. See Wikipedia:Spoiler. --RL0919 (talk) 22:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Foreign Language translations

Could someone add what the foreign titles actually mean? --84.208.208.230 (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

^ ISBN 978-0-312-42924-9, p. 172

[1] Michael Shermer. The Mind of the Market. (2008). Times Books. ISBN 0805078320, p. XX

[2] Rand not only actively campaigned (taking an unpaid position in the campaign) for the Presidential candidacy of Wendell Wilkie in 1940, she was a tireless critic of the New Deal. The periodical she edited, for example, strongly recommended the work of leading FDR critic John T. Flynn, see, The Objectivist Newsletter, "The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn, Reviewed," Sept. 1962.

[3] ISBN 978-0-312-42924-9, p. 172

[1]

[2]

[1]

That so-called "Rebuttal"

Jenkins review

Huffington and Bloom

This was not Rand's position

Jewish

South Park

Modern Library paragraph censored

News on the movie

Rethinking the Huffington quote

Neutrality of Criticism Section

philosopher

Ongoing Problems

"How long was it?"

Literary elements going completely undiscussed in article on work of literature

Not a criticism...

Definition of philosopher

Galt Motor Really a Perpetual Motion Machine?

Rand's Theory of Sex

More Problems with the Technology Section

"Gault" Telluride Tombstone

Fictitious inventions?

Who owns 'Galt's Motor'?

Harlock Link

Userbox?

Wikipedia is not a link directory

Spoiler warning

The quotes do not belong here

Critical reception section

In popular culture

Roll call

Publication Date

Actual Railroad

Shale Oil Drilling

Things

Citation Note

Not terrible?

Interlectuals

Speculation in "Setting" section

library of congress survey

Lord of the Rings

"Flight from dictatorship"? - Criticism section

Criticism

Lines in "originality" section

Edits to reception

Auto archive

"Thrown with great force"

Criticism section citations

Reception

2008 financial crisis section

Nolan chart criticism of this Wiki article

Criticism section

Overhaul

Fictional Technology, etc. Irrelevant

As for examples...

New Deal

Aggressive soapboxing by Rand fans

Misleading...

South Park

Bioshock

Mistake...

Praise and influence - Tea Party Protests

Why is Raj Patel's criticism relevant?

What's with the massive spoilers in the first paragraph?

Foreign Language translations