Talk:Antonio Vivaldi/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Initial comment

I don't know exactly how to say this, but I think Vivaldi wrote a good bit of music that sounded especially good on the violin because chose to write in keys that resonated well with the violin's strings, and took advantage of natural harmonics. This was somewhat revolutionary at the time, in terms of music theory. Maybe someone with a better grasp of music theory can say this right and add it to the article? Wesley

Music therapy

I'm not sure about the music therapy (not musicotherapy in English) bit. Is it relevant or should it be in a separate article? It isn't really about Vivaldi, or is it? Nevilley

Funnily enough, I was just about to comment on the same thing, in particular this part:

The reason for this selection seems to be based on the particular use these composers made (supposedly, unaware of it) of the frequencies between 5,000 and 8,000 hertz (these frequencies are presumed to produce a deep alignment of the cerebral emispheres, resulting in an optimal cerebral frequency).

Now, by my very quick mental calculation, 5000Hz is about four octaves above middle C, 8000 is roughly five octaves above middle C. None of these composers used notes in that range (certainly not with any regularity, probably not at all). It's true that these frequencies would be present as harmonics in their music, but then that's true of every other composer as well. I'll move this sentence out of the article, therefore, and I'm tempted to move the whole paragraph out, but music therapy isn't my thing, so I'll chicken out of that. If you or somebody else wants to move it, though, I certainly won't complain (though actually, it doesn't look bad now the above has been taken out). --Camembert

Opus 3

I would add a mention of Opus 3 "L'estro armonico". It was a milestone in Baroque music all over Europe. LeoViv

Damaged file? #07 - Vivaldi Autumn mvt 1 Allegro

07 - Vivaldi Autumn mvt 1 Allegro - John Harrison violin.ogg

Will not download any file.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by GeoFan49 (talk • contribs) 06:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Vivaldi's "symphonies"

I think that, in the listing of works, "symphonies" should be changed to "sinfonias" or "sinfonie" (the Italian plural of "sinfonia", I believe) or something, since the word "symphony" in our modern parlance carries a meaning that did not exist for Vivaldi in the 17th and early 18th centuries.

hmm that is true. but u must remember that the lay man may not understand that.. and since the encyclopedia is directed to him, small inaccuracies like that can be ignored.--Gaurav 15:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The article Sinfonia already exists. I'll make the changes in the article to redirect there. --Wetman 17:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Portrait

I've seen a couple of other portraits of Vivaldi, and they don't look nearly as feminine or angelic as the one in the article. Here is a portraitand a caricature. Is the article's portrait authentic, or is it just an artist imagining what he might have looked like? It's also important to note that the wig he's wearing in the article's portrait doesn't look like the kind of wig that was fashionable at the time. --Berserk798 23:44, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The portrait is anonymous, though it is believed to have been painted during Vivaldi's lifetime. It was in the collection of Padre Martini and may be found at the music museum that houses the collection in Bologna. It is, by far, the most commonly used portrait (CDs, books etc) but the only representation that is known to be genuine is the caricature you have posted. 15:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC) Keith

The profession of Vivaldi's father

Other sources give the profession of Vivaldi's father as barber, not baker. ?? dveej71.105.253.36 15:55, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Red Priest band

The British early music ensemble Red Priest and their first album, Priest on the Run, were named for Antonio Vivaldi. Should they be mentioned somewhere on this page? - Pwbrooks 06:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to be bold! Jussenadv 07:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Vivaldi is described as having asthma three times that I've noticed. It should only be mentioned once, at the beginning.

Reference for new discoveries

I tried to add a reference at the end of the subsection Recent discoveries but it didn't work. Can someone more expert than me fix this? Also it would be nice if someone can add the titles of the other two works discovered in the Dresden library and attributed to Galuppi.

eubulide 19:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Notables who are Influenced

Curious if it's worth to mention artists who play his music in a famous sort of way, such as Vanessa Mae's techno mix or Yo Yo Ma's remake album for the cello.

Actual birth and death year

I have and have seen scores and other online citations which indicate Vivaldi lived from 1680 to 1743. In my brief search, I found as many sources which are in agreement with the Wikipedia article. What gives?

1678 to 1741 is correct. Every print source I have, as well as the most recent Britannica and the 2006 New Grove, which is really the gold standard for current concise biographical material, has those dates. Do you have a print source that says otherwise? Antandrus (talk) 03:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have the Roger Dean conductor's score of Gloria. Right on the front it says (1680-1743). Type 'Vivaldi 1680-1743' into Google and numerous results poke up. Curious.

Looks to me like an error in one of those catalogs that is being propagated. Currently the second Google hit is [1]; the cached version has 1680-1743, but in the current version they've fixed it. I suspect one of the publishers has it wrong, since most of the 1680-1743 hits are sheet music catalogs or recital announcements involving a sonata which appears in one of the catalogs. Antandrus (talk) 15:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC) -- And further, if you look at the "sheetmusicplus" hits, you see that they're actually pulling their info from International Music, the first one I mentioned. Antandrus (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's the text of Vivaldi birth certificate (from Gianfranco Formichetti, Venezia e il prete col violino):

Adì 6 Maggio 1678. Antonio Lucio figliolo del Sig.re Gio:Batta q. Augustin Vivaldi Sonador et della Sig.ra Camilla figliola del q. Camillo Calicchio sua consorte, nato li 4 marzo ultimo caduto, qual hebbe l'acqua in casa per pericolo di morte dalla comare allevatrice madama Margarita Veronese, hoggi fu portato alla Chiesa, riceve` gli essorcismi et ogli santi da me Giacomo Fornacieri

My approximate translation: Antonio Vivaldi was born on 4 March 1678. Since the newborn was in danger of dying, he was given an emergency baptism by the midwife. On 6 May he was taken to church to be baptised properly.

Eubulide 01:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Question about the date of death:

(March 4, 1678, Venice – July 28 (or 27), 1741, Vienna)

The article does not mention why there is uncertainty about when he died on the 27 or 28. Although it states in the Biography section that he died on the 28. Is there doubt as to when he died? Ryan Roos 17:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently it is not known. He was buried on 28 July, and he died either on that day or the previous one, in a house owned by the widow of a Viennese saddle-maker. He was given a pauper's burial, being destitute. (This is according to the online New Grove). It doesn't say exactly how he died or if anyone was with him. Antandrus (talk) 18:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

His father a baker?

Where does the information that Vivaldi's father was a baker come from? My references say that he was a barber and later he became a professional violinist. If some source has him as a baker, the reference should be given. Eubulide 01:03, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

He wasn't a baker; he was a barber, before becoming a professional violinist, as you say. It's in the New Grove in some detail. I changed it back. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 01:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I am a great admirer of Vivaldi. I've got The best of Vivaldi CD, published and recorded by Madacy Entertainment Group Inc, St. Laurent Quebec Canada. Inside the box containing the CD is a booklet of 21 pages long with an extensive Vivaldi's biography. On the pages 7-8 it reads: "His father became so carried away with music that he left his job as a baker and became a professional musician". Also, the baptism date is May 6th of the 1678 year. Just curious is there a biography of this great Italian composer and violinist coming from the times of his life that might be more trustworthy than New Grove or this one I've mentioned above signed by the Russian Alexander Kuznetsov and the Englishwoman Louise Thomas?

--GiorgioOrsini 02:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Every source I have has him as a barber, if they mention his career-prior-to-being-a-violinist at all. I'd be very curious to know where the "baker" information comes from. Grove is considered to be the most reliable encyclopedia among musicologists, with the DGG a close second. If anyone reading this has access to the 1970s DGG (the 2006 volume containing Vivaldi has not been published yet) I'd like them to look it up there. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 03:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Stravinski

I think Stravinski's joke has no business in an encyclopedia. Anyone who knows Vivaldi's concerti knows it is untrue. We also know that all musicians make such caustic comments about fellow musicians. Just read Slonimsky's hilarious "Lexicon of Musical Invective". --dunnhaupt 11:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a tired joke, and I took it out, as you requested. I think that the stylistic unity during the Baroque era, especially in places like Venice, is more to the point. Musicians were just not expected to "reinvent" themselves with each composition, as they were in the 20th century and forward. Antandrus (talk) 15:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Michael Talbot

Hi, Being unfamiliar with that kind of stuff, I don't want to fiddle with the page.

However, I suggest someone remove the link to the entry about Michael Talbot, because the person that the word is presently connected to is not identical with the british musicologist M. T.

I "disambiguated" the link; now it points to an as-yet-unwritten article. Looks like we need one on Michael Talbot (musicologist). Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 18:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Day of death

It's OK to have the day of death as 28 in the leading section, after all it is the date on the death certificate. However, since it is not known whether he actually died on the night of the 27th, I added a note in the section about late life and death, giving references to what some of the scholars say. Eubulide (talk) 21:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The current New Grove article (also written by Talbot) gives 27/28 as the date of death; there's really no way to know, so I think your wording is good. Antandrus (talk) 22:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I put the Britannica citation as a trial (see my edit summary remark: Is Britannica ok?). If you are happy with it keep it at the lead. Otherwise please feel free to change as necessary. I wouldn't mind either way since you are the local experts. Thanks. Dr.K. (talk) 23:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem ... I was fine with it (I saw your edit summary yesterday). It's a messy situation since in Italy, the days are often considered to begin at sunset (see the very similar situation with Giuseppe Verdi's birthdate!), and we don't have reliable information on exactly when Vivaldi died. "28th" is probably as close as we're likely to get, and that's probably what the Britannica author thought. Cheers! Antandrus (talk) 23:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Antandrus for these details. It's delightful to know, especially in a context involving Italy and great composers. Thanks also for the great hospitality in this area of Wikipedia. Take care. Dr.K. (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the sunset. The Totenbeschauer wrote a so-called Beschauzettel and the date he put on it could refer to the time of death, as well as the date of the entry on the note. So this is always ambiguous, especially in the middle of the 18th century. The reliebility of the entries however improved strongly towards the turn of the century.--131.130.135.193 (talk) 18:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

July 28th was a Tuesday, if we work backwards from August 22nd when Handel started the Messiah on a Saturday. ----tullywinters

Cause of Death

The German term "innerer Brand" has nothing to to with fire, even less with Asthma. It refers to an infection frequently combined with necrosis of the body tissue.--Suessmayr (talk) 06:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Collaborations

In the "Late Life and Death" section, it introduces the fact that Vivaldi collaborated with two other "writers" on operas, yet then states that these operas were "written by" these gentlemen. Should it not say they were "written with" them? I understand that Vivaldi's collaborators were poets and playwrights, and not musicians and composers, but the article doesn't state that plainly, nor has the article really addressed the distinction between libretto and music prior to this point, so it is not a given to an outsider. While of course clicking on their wiki-linked names might lead one to presume they alone wrote the story and he the music, it would be ideal to attribute their respective contributions in this article. As someone who is not an opera expert, I thought it best to query this on the talk page for someone more astute to re-craft the attribution using not only precise terminology but factual accuracy. Might I suggest "The libretti for L'Olimpiade and Catone in Utica were written by Pietro Metastasio..."; following this sentence the second attribution would be more reasonably inferred to be the same and not necessarily need to be changed. That is based on the assumption given by the article that Vivaldi did not at all contribute to the libretti for any of these three operas, and "merely" composed the music. If it is known that Vivaldi contributed to the libretti as well, then of course "by" could simply be changed to "with", which would also be the preferred revision if the extent of Vivaldi's contribution to the libretti of all three of the respective works is unknown.

A side note, while this again self-professed non-opera-expert has never heard of those two librettists (renowned though he sees them to be by their articles here), he has heard the name Vivaldi—and been exposed to his music—since childhood; yet while those two librettists' names are mentioned in the Vivaldi article, Vivaldi's does not appear in theirs. Is the collaboration so much less significant in their resumes than in his? I find that the more collaborative associations one can put into an article, the better for a reader to comprehend the scope and timbre of the primary article's subject, much less the ability for someone with general interest to surf, but I leave such additions to those articles to someone far more expert than I. Abrazame (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

L'Adelaide

Not sure how to fix this, because i'm not completely fluent in wiki.

However, clicking on L'Adelaide in the opera list redirects to a page about an opera also called L'Adelaide, but not the one by Vivaldi.

What's best, to simply remove the link? Create some kind of disambiguation page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.100.209 (talk) 03:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I made it into a redlink for you (now it's L'Adelaide (Vivaldi) but piped to just L'Adelaide for the reader). Typically we add the composer's name in parentheses to the article title when there's more than one work of the same name; the most obvious case would be things like Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven). Cheers! Antandrus (talk) 03:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dignified Seriousness

The article states:

Many of Vivaldi's compositions reflect a buoyant, almost playful, exuberance which are in direct contrast with the dignified seriousness of much Baroque music in his time. Block quote

However this sentence is completely out of touch with reality. one only needs to take a brief glimpse at the music of Rameau, Scarlatti, Francois Couperin, Corelli, Telemann, Handel, and, yes, J.S Bach, to see that music in the Baroque era was exuberant, vibrant, full of life, energy, and even (!) joy and playfulness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vinici7 (talk • contribs) 09:16, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

English please!

In the At the Ospedale della Pietà section I found the following texts which has no signification to English speakers so I don't see what's the use of letting it there: viola all'inglese, maestro de' concerti.

New Areola

An associate of mine from Italy informed me and sent notes to new areola discovered by some Italian classical musician, 1/3 was missing, he was able to fill it in (as was the case with Mozart's requiem, his student finished it beautifully, Mozart overworked himself and that was one of the reasons for his death, i wrote a deep thesis on different theories) and sounds great, we need to write separate article just on that! Performed 280 years ago, but dont get it confused with four seasons! - Bonus: I have original Chopin birth certificate, wiki article on him has tons of mistake, but thats the norm for wiki! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.2.214 (talk) 21:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Query Re. Dates

Can I ask if anyone can supply dates for Vivaldi's Cello Concertos RV401 and RV416...? It's for the entry on homotonality...

Thanks!

Pfistermeister (talk) 11:03, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Haydn singing for Vivaldi?

"(the assumption that the young Joseph Haydn sang in the choir at Vivaldi's burial was based on the mistranscription of a primary source and has been proven wrong)" I wish there were a citation for who proved it wrong, and how. I'm running across plenty of sources that would support both the idea that Vivaldi's burial service was meager, and that Haydn would have been there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.194.35.216 (talk) 18:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a factually fairly good article; with some polish it might be A-class. My full review is on the Talk:Antonio Vivaldi/Comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 13:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Antonio Vivaldi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Antonio Vivaldi: 2024-05-27 This is an assessment of article Antonio Vivaldi by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Origins/family background/studies Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok Early career Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok Mature career Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? ok List(s) of works Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok Critical appreciation Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? ok, but not without issues; see summary Illustrations and sound clips Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) ok References, sources and bibliography Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; few inline citations Structure and compliance with WP:MOS Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; a few other MOS issues. Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Summary This is a pretty good article, covering most of what we should see in a composer's biography. I particularly appreciate the historiography, which gives insight into when and how his music was known. The stylistic appreciation could use some work; for example, I (and likely anyone not a student of music history) have no idea what this means: "Vivaldi's music is innovative, breaking a consolidated tradition in schemes". I also find a description of the catalog numbering scheme to be lacking; it is neither described in this article, nor in Ryom Verzeichnis. (Is it chronological? thematic? something else?) The list of works in the article is also a bit long, and should be focused on his better-known works. Structurally, the article's lead is short, and it would benefit from inline citations. There is also inconsistency in the short-form name of his employer: sometimes Ospedale, sometimes Pietà, sometimes Pietà. These should be harmonized. Article is a solid B-class; it might benefit from a peer- or A-class review. Magic♪piano 13:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

One is amazed that this beloved composer suffers from utter neglect regarding the absence of an infobox, I have read the entire corpus of historical debate and reject the opposition, and would like to voice that this feels needed as to conform with the wikipedia standards at least. And while you're at it - should add an infobox to Mr. Claudio Monteverdi as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.124.83.21 (talk) 17:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Slacker13 (talk) 19:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)